Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 October 4

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October 4

Installing a ceiling fan on a drop ceiling

Is this a terribly difficult thing to do, or is it still better to bother hiring someone to do this for me than risk it flying off the ceiling and cutting my wife's head off during dinner? DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 00:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a case where you should get an estimate from a professional and ask about the task. 67.21.131.22 (talk) 02:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If you have to ask you need to hire a pro. Quinn ^{❀ BEAUTIFUL DAY} 02:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

It depends. How much do you want to see your wife's head separated from her body: a lot, or just a little? -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 02:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Cieling fan? Have a professional install it otherwise you might kill yourself; or worse, a beloved family pet. Also, Jack does have a point. Could be a plot to get life insurance, oh dear! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 6 Tishrei 5772 02:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Can it be done? Maybe. Should it be done? Probably not. In case you haven't lifted one, most ceiling fan motors are surprisingly heavy. Even if it's possible, it's clearly not practical.

--DaHorsesMouth (talk) 03:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Ceiling fans typically use wooden or plastic paddles, and they aren't powerful enough to decapitate anyone; but the risk of it crashing down on someone's head is a sufficient concern. As DHM notes, they are kind of heavy. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually from memory most of the ceiling fans in my home in Malaysia had metal blades. However they still are unlikely decapitate anyone while falling . Nil Einne (talk) 12:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

MythBusters says "Normal household fans do not have the power even to inflict serious injury while spinning at top speed" Mitch Ames (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The fan must be mounted on a support that is firmly attached to the beams above the drop ceiling, so the support must pass through the ceiling. There is no reason why you could not install this yourself if you are competent and careful, but it would be very risky to rely on the drop ceiling for support unless it happens to have strong struts designed for the weight of the fan, and this is unlikely. I agree with previous replies, that if you need to ask then it would be wiser to employ someone with experience. Dbfirs 07:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I would think the tricky part would be wiring it. Googlemeister (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

No the wiring is just like any other fixture. The tricky part is securely anchoring it. Rmhermen (talk) 16:06, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've seen at building centers a nice support system for a fan, which goes into the space above the ceiling (which in turn is above the dropped ceiling) through a smallish opening, then has 2 arms which crank out to embed themselves in and against the 2 ceiling joists. Then the fan can be below the drop ceiling but properly attached to the building structure. I doubt it would work out to attach it to the ceiling grid, or that the drop ceiling panels themselves could support it. Edison (talk) 14:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Per a variety of codes, ceiling fans must be firmly attached to the building structure. As Edison notes, use of the drop ceiling to support anything at all isn't safe. Even very light so-called "lay-in" light fixtures are in fact supported, at least nominally, by tie wires to structure. A heavy rotating object can't be mounted on a drop ceiling. Acroterion (talk) 14:21, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

If DRosenbach happens to live in Korea, then of course the act of installing the fan might get him arrested for attempted wife-murder via Fan death. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

That article has diminished my respect for the RoK in such a way that not even a round of StarCraft multiplayer could restore it. The OP should follow this one simple rule. If you are having anything very heavy installed that will be above you; do not install it yourself. Have someone who knows what he's doing do it; despite however skilled you might think you are, that means nothing when a heavy block of steel comes down on your head. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 7 Tishrei 5772 01:20, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Unless you eat most your meals on the living room couch like I do, I find it interesting that you have a dropped ceiling in your dining room. I don't think I've ever seen one in a residential dining room. Not that this helps with the installation of the fan... Just making an observation. Dismas|^(talk) 13:13, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Best absinthe commercially available in the US specifically DC, CT, or NY

So I'm looking to get a particularly good Broseph (Bro + Joseph) an absinthe glass, absinthe spoon and a fine absinthe for his b-day and Christmas. I want to get a high-quality one (under 100 USD) preferably with a high alcohol content. Figure it's a good gift for someone who's able to drink an entire bottle of arak and still function normally. Any connoisseurs of the green fairy? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 6 Tishrei 5772 04:38, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I've had Lucid, which is often shipped with two glasses and a spoon. I wasn't very impressed, but I don't have anything to compare it to (it's the only absinthe I've ever had). But it's pretty common in the US in my experience — I've seen it in stores in both DC and MA. --Mr.98 (talk) 14:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Never had Lucid but it hasn't won any awards here [1] (I don't think much of this site as it appears to be retail trade sponsored and so are the more heavily advertised and thus expensive ones). --Aspro (talk) 19:02, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

In my experience the best of any spirits are the ones not many people know about, as opposed to well known mass production bottles, for example I had an amazing bottle of rum bought in trinidad and tobago which was locally produced and hand made (or whatever the alcohol equivalent), and I was once well accquainted with a sommelier who refused to drink any spirit which was mass produced. I'd recommend finding a higher end liquer store, not your run of the mill bargain booze store, and asking the advice of the people there, they're usually pretty knowledgeable. As for the spoon and glass, just go for ebay, theres plenty of drinking paraphernalia available on there--Jac16888 ^Talk 15:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Eh, it's not necessarily the case, and I think that's a cognitive bias in disguise. Connoisseurs always loves the obscure, but that's more a statement about what it means to be "cool" than anything else. In blind testing I'm not sure there's a good relationship between mass production and poor quality in all instances. I've had some spirits that were mass produced and great, some which were mass produced and crap, some that were hand produced and great, hand produced and crap, and so on. The size of the operation doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:11, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know from my US friends, real Absinthe is still banned in the US but is legal to import for personal use. So beware of the claims from American importers. Do you homework on European websites first as to what is genuine and representative of the the proper stuff. Even over here, attempts are made to fob us off with green flavoured vodka. Then contact the distiller's to have them recommend an agent to export/import it for you with the proper paperwork so that it doesn’t get caught up in Customs. Then you can be sure you're not getting a counterfeit bottle (we have that problem due to the high duty (tax) on it). $60 to a $100 dollars should be sufficient.--Aspro (talk) 17:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

The US absinthe ban was lifted in 2007. Whether it is is "real" or not depends on whether you think thujone is actually important or not, which the science isn't really clear about (but leans towards "not as important as people used to think"). All of the absinthes I've seen advertised as such in the US seem to be "real" absinthes; certainly not just flavored vodkas. --Mr.98 (talk) 18:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Its been a long time since I've heard this discussed. I think the full flavour or perhaps better described as aromatic bouquet, comes from allowing more of the 'heads' to be allowed into the heart spirit during distillation which includes as you say (amongst other things) thujone. With absinthe never having been illegal here, it is difficult to think of thujone free spirit (with the other aromatics and 'tongue' and 'mouth' feeling also missing) to be the same thing. Personal taste perhaps. Unfortunately, I have tasted too some stuff that is more like flavoured vodka but sold as absinthe.--Aspro (talk) 19:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I think what I'm going for is... idk, smoothness if that is right, taste, yes, and preferably high alcohol content. I guess I could also ask people in the liquor stores how the various brands taste. I heard from one (who's awfully friendly with my dad and I given that I have a decent wine knowledge and know when the Jewish holidays are, and my dad is a frequent customer) that there are few decent brands in NY at least. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 6 Tishrei 5772 22:00, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

What is a segment saw?

How does it work, and why don't we have an article? Rich Farmbrough, 15:45, 4 October 2011 (UTC).

• I can't tell you how a segment saw works but I can tell you why there isn't an article about segment saws: no one has written it yet. If you can find a good, reliable (at least as per WP:RS) source describing what a segment saw is and how it works, it may be a good start for a page here. That being said, this old patent is the best I can find. §everal⇒|Times 21:34, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I have the impression that there is some ambiguity about this -- not helped by the fact that people who write about tools rarely explain their terminology. Prior to 1900, a segment saw clearly was a rotary saw with a cutting edge consisting of separate saw-pieces attached to a central core (as in the cited patent). Nowadays, though, there are many suppliers of "segment saw blades" or "segmented saw blades", and what that seems to mean is a rotary blade whose edge is divided into segments by notches or some other type of irregularity. Looie496 (talk) 22:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

handhels sensors

what places would be dangerous to use handheld sensors ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.178.217.85 (talk) 18:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Near an erupting volcano, while standing in the fast lane of an busy highway, while lost at sea in an inflatable raft, in a burning building, in space. I am sure there are thousands of places. Were you looking for something more specific? Googlemeister (talk) 18:39, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Sensors for what? There are many kinds of sensors.Sjö (talk) 18:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

)

US towns with identical names

In the United States, are there really settlements with identical names within the same state? If so, how do people avoid the confusion? – b_jonas 18:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Like Washington, Wisconsin? Clarityfiend (talk) 19:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Through postal codes? --Ouro (blah blah) 19:43, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

There are many places with identical names in different states. Within the same state, there are occasional cases of places with the same name. However, these cases are unusual, and they always involve places quite far apart. (Remember that US states are roughly the size of European countries.) Moreover, I don't think there are any places within the same state that have the same postal address. That is, no two post offices in the same state have the same name (with the exception of large cities that have multiple post offices). So, let's say there is a place called Oak Park in one part of California that has its own post office. That would be the only place with an "Oak Park" postal address in California (though there are other places with an Oak Park postal address in other states). Now, there might be a neighborhood or other locally known district 300 miles (500 km) away also called Oak Park, but only local residents would know that name, and this second Oak Park would have an unrelated postal address, such as Davisville. It might be known more formally as the Oak Park neighborhood of Davisville, California, whereas the other Oak Park would be known as Oak Park, California. There are cases of minor government subdivisions sharing the same name in the same state, such as Washington Township, New Jersey or Springfield Township, Pennsylvania. However, in these cases, only one of these municipalities in each state uses that name as a postal address. The other municipalities can be distinguished by county, as Wikipedia does. However, if you ask Americans where they live, they will usually respond with the name of their postal town, not the name of an obscure legal jurisdiction. Marco polo (talk) 19:48, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Westwood, California and Brentwood, California are also the names of neighborhoods in Los Angeles, likely better known than the cities. On mail, you mainly have to get the ZIP code right, and you should be fine (though a letter to a UCLA student living near campus should properly be addressed Los Angeles, not Westwood). As for whether you have a date in one place and she's waiting in the other, well, that seems sort of unlikely, but I suppose that sort of thing does occasionally happen. --Trovatore (talk) 20:03, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Multiple-place names and List of the most common U.S. place names.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

With Westwood and Brentwood, you have neighborhoods of Los Angeles on the one hand, and independent communities hundreds of miles away in other parts of the state on the other. The postal address of the L.A. neighborhoods is "Los Angeles, CA". I suppose you could use "Westwood, CA" and the correct L.A. zip code and the letter would get there, but that's not the standard address. In Los Angeles, if you say "Westwood", everyone understands that you mean the neighborhood. If you wanted to talk about the other Westwood, you'd say something like "a little town called Westwood, way up in far northern California". Likewise, if you were up in that part of California, people would understand that you meant the little town unless you said "Westwood in Los Angeles". As for the many Wisconsin towns called "Washington", only one of them has "Washington" as its postal address. The rest of them are just county subdivisions that typically have little identity other than as road-maintenance districts that send out periodic property tax bills. Wisconsinites, when asked where they live, will generally not report the name of their county subdivision (or "town") unless they are talking to people from elsewhere in the county or officialdom who might be familiar with these obscure entities. If mentioning the name of the town to someone outside the county, the name of the county would also be mentioned. Otherwise, people would describe the location of a place either by the name of the county or the name of the post office. Really, this is not an issue that involves a lot of ambiguity in the United States. Marco polo (talk) 00:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

In Ohio, townships can share names with townships in another county, but cities and villages must have a unique name. Thus, there are 26 Perry Townships in Ohio but only one Perry Village. As mentioned above, there can be only one "city" for postal address purposes with a given name in each state. So Bainbridge Township in Geauga County, although known locally as "Bainbridge," has a Chagrin Falls address. Only letters sent to the village of Bainbridge in Ross County (or surrounding areas) are supposed to say "Bainbridge, OH." I'm guessing this does cause some confusion sometimes. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:43, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

According to the dab there are some 250 places named Washington Township, with 22 in Penna. alone. New Jersey, eat your heart out! μηδείς (talk) 03:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

This was one of the two major motivations for the introduction of zip codes in the US, as a huge amount of mail was being delayed because of ambiguity resulting in wasted labor and time. 69.171.160.19 (talk) 03:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The deal with townships is that, outside of a few places in the U.S., these are minor civil divisions (see Civil township), they are basically used only by surveyors and land assessors, and aren't real "places" for most people (the exception is mostly in New England, where the New England town is the major civic identity, and in other places in the Northeast, where towns/townships take a greater role). Most people who live in a township couldn't actually tell you the name of the township they live in. Civil townships (except in New England) are not municipalities and so don't play that role for most people. In any given state, it may be very common to have multiple townships (even many townships) with the same name, since no one really uses them for identification or navigation, and it is very rare (though not unheard of) for two municipalities in the same state to have the same name. This can be a bit confusing, because in some places the term "town" refers also to a small municipality, which is distinct from the usage of "township" as a minor administrative division, basically as the "county of a county", if you will. --Jayron32 03:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

"only by surveyors and land assessors" is a bit over-exaggerated. Having grown up on a township road 1.5 miles from the nearest state road, come winter time it was very important that the township road crew was on the job. Rmhermen (talk) 04:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

It was after reading the links at Wash. Twp. above that I investigated the matter. One of the Jersey twp.s has just over 600 inhabitants, yes. Another has almost 50,000. These would seem to count to me as at least as real as any rotten borough.

I see. Thanks for the very extensive answers. – b_jonas 13:51, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

2004 world population conference

Every ten years since 1974, the United Nations has held an international conference on world population. Where can I find a list of the attendees (nations) of the 2004 world population conference? --Melab±1 ☎ 20:04, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Traditional Japanese music

I just listened to some gagaku music, and the main thing I noticed about it is how incredibly slow it is, consisting almost entirely of very long, ametric notes. Is all traditional Japanese music like this, or is there some that's less boring? --99.119.63.240 (talk) 21:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Silence has as much musical importance as sound in Asian music. Anyway, yes of course. Try Taiko ensemble music (Kodo for example).-- Obsidi♠n Soul 21:40, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I suggest you compare this if you like Japanese music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZ4LCejQg8o

You may also like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY1pcEtHI_w&feature=related and should check out throat song and Inuit throat singing. Note that the Turks, Japanese, Mongols and Eskimo are all related Eurasiatic languages . μηδείς (talk) 04:56, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm.. there's some debate about that last claim. See Japanese language and Classification of Japonic. Alansplodge (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there is debate. Roy Andrew Miller (see, for example [2]) provides confirmation that Japanese is an Altaic language, and, coincidentally, validates Altaic with evidence such as the fact that Japanese shows reflexes of the Turkic lir/shaz alterations. μηδείς (talk) 01:12, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, there's no throat singing in Japanese traditional music. You may find min'yo less boring, especially the second one. [3], [4], and [5]. Oda Mari (talk) 07:23, 5 October 2011 (UTC)