Talk:Whitsun

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This article was nominated for merging with Pentecost on May 2010. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Confusing Etymology[edit]

hvitasunnu-dagr, hwittesun-day, "white-sun-day" = i.e. "beginning of the Summer half-year". All of the mixing of christian come-latelies and their attempts to co-opt and confuse the day with their 'pentecost' celebration should be kept distinct for the sake of historical accuracy.--Wittsun (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Number of weeks after Easter[edit]

im sure whitsun is 6 sundays after easter, not 7? 5

so much for certainty. Look on a calendar. Whitsun = pentecost = Greek 50 (sc. days after Easter Sunday). 7 weeks x 7 days a week = 49 days.Jagdfeld (talk) 13:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Merge article?[edit]

I agree that the article must be merged with Pentecost. Nikosgreencookie (talk) 16:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree I think the article should be renamed "Whitsuntide" as this was a traditional holiday week in the United Kingdom. If that was done it would differentiate this article from Pentecost and the Whitsuntide article could be expanded with all the things that went on (and still go on - particularly in the north west of England) in the week following Whit Sunday For example; Whit Fairs, Whit Walks, Brass band contests etc. I have some references for events that happen during Whitsuntide and would be happy to expand the article and make it a gateway to other articles about events in that week. Also, if you look on the Pentecost talk page a merge was discussed and rejected over a year ago. In fact a merge discussion should appear on the talk pages of both articles see Proposing a merger Richerman (talk) 20:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree: Don't merge. I don't think most Americans have ever heard the word "Whitsuntide" and would be absolutely clueless if someone asked them what it meant, if that makes any difference to anyone. (I do agree with the suggestion for the change in the title of this article to "Whitsuntide".) Even the word "Whitsun" is rare in the U.S., except to certain sects of devout, God fearing Protestants. The terms "Whitsun" and "Whitsuntide" are Britishisms for a British holiday and hoilday week, and deserves this separate article. However, I think THIS article should include a section on the Whitsun celebration in Germany, called »Pfingsten«, which is celebrated in similar ways to the British. (Note: The most common term for this holiday in the U.S. is Pentecost, which does not have any of the British or German secular associations with holidays away from work, public celebrations and brass band contests, morris dancing, Whit Fairs, and the like.) Regards, Charvex (talk) 16:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree: Don't merge. But I also wouldn't recommend renmaing it "Whitsuntide". The expansion suggested by Richerman would be interesting, but is quite appropriate under the present heading "Whitsun". In the Netherlands, BTW, it is called "Pinkster" and incorporates regional pre-Christian festivals as in other countries. (Mangodog (talk) 12:24, 24 May 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Disagree: Whitsun is a pre-christian holiday.--Wittsun (talk) 13:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed the merge tag as the merge was incorrectly proposed in the first place (see my comment above), it's been open for four months and there is clearly no consensus for merge. Richerman (talk) 00:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Like it or not, the holy day/holiday called Whitsun was the usual name for Christian Pentecost for centuries in England & elsewhere, and still is. No doubt like most other holidays it was originally a pagan feast day, but to say that that pagan feast 'was' Whitsun and to begin by saying it's a festival originating from a pagan celebration, & then, "Whitsun was incorporated into Pentecost," is misleading. The source quoted does not make a case for using the Christian era name for the pagan feast. I'm not a Christian & not denying the truth/significance of the pagan roots, but Whitsun was/is a Christian festival and that should be shown more clearly (and IMO this should be part of the Pentecost article).Costesseyboy (talk) 12:04, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree about the lead sentence so I've changed it a little. However, I don't see any reason to merge this article with Pentecost as there is more to Whitsun than just that. Richerman (talk) 13:08, 7 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Conflicting dates[edit]

Until just now, the lead paragraph of this article claimed that the UK spring bank holiday was Whit Monday until 1967, that being the year in which it officialy became the Spring Bank Holiday and fixed as the last Monday in May. This contradicted the body of the article, which claims that the switch took place in 1971.

I don't know exactly when the switch took place (it was after all over 40 years ago), but I started secondary school in 1967, and that was thus a landmark year for me; if the switch had occurred then, I'm sure I would have remembered this due to that Bank Holiday being the very last one before I started secondary school. Hence although I'm not 100% certain it was 1971, I am 100% certain that it wasn't 1967. I've changed the date to 1971 on the grounds that this is far more likely to be the correct date. — 188.28.238.171 (talk) 00:10, 20 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is 1978. — | Gareth Griffith-Jones |The WelshBuzzard| — 13:37, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed the date to the one which is indicated by the relevant Act of Parliament: the Banking and Financial Services Act 1971, Sch 1, Para 1. This received Royal Assent on 16 December 1971 so would have first introduced the Spring Bank Holiday in 1972. It is just possible that there was some experimental period beforehand, and the holiday date was altered in some earlier years by Royal Proclamation, but I have no details of this.Ntmr (talk) 15:46, 5 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I now see that the article 'Whit Monday' suggests that Whit Monday was a Bank Holiday until 1967. The source given is website - so very much a secondary source - which in turn refers to the Banking and Financial Services Act 1971 as authority for the permanent change, but it also says that there was a trial period from 1965 to 1970. This corresponds with my personal recollections, but it cannot be strictly accurate, as the trial period would still have been operating in May 1971, as the BFSA 1971 took effect in 1972. In view of the uncertainty it would seem best to leave the text as it is until more reliable authority can be found.Ntmr (talk) 13:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about about redirecting Whitsunday[edit]

There is a discussion at Talk:Whitsunday#Requested move 23 May 2015 about moving that disambugation page to Whitsunday (disambiguation) and redirecting Whitsunday to this page. Add comments there. --Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 04:04, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Rationalizing the two articles with four names: Whitsun, Whitsuntide, Whitsunday, Pentacost.[edit]

There are two articles -- Whitsun and Pentacost -- and four names -- Whitsun, Whitsuntide, Whitsunday, Pentacost. Let's keep the two articles but tweak the names to reflect better what the articles are discussing.

I propose that this article focus on the British and Anglican traditions around Whitsuntide (including links to Embertides and Scottish Quarter Days) and be renamed Whitsuntide. Then have Whitsunday (and maybe Whitsun) point towards Pentacost, with a section in the latter Pentacost article on British tradition with a { { main article } } tag to create a branch off of Pentacost.

Regardless of the roots of any particularly tradition, Whitsuntide survived as a British cultural tradition around Pentacost. (Remember "Whitsunday" is an Old English term for "White Sunday" or Pentacost, and "Whitsun" is a late 13c shortening of "Whitsunday", according to Etymoline [1].) Without Pentacost would any of cultural practices survived? We cannot know. All we know is that these celebrations whatever their roots became part of Christian Britain's celebration of Pentacost/Whitsunday/Whitsun. Renaming this Whitsuntide would help delineate these British and Anglican traditions from the broader Christian holy day celebrated around the world. Renaming would help differentiate the Sunday, the important Christian holy day, from the British cultural traditions.

In the long run, I can see a Pentacost/Whitsunday/Whitsun article as a feeder article into numerous branch articles that discuss a particular country's or culture's Pentacost/Whitsunday/Whitsun tradition, such as the holidays in Germany and France, with titles like "Pentacost in Germany", "Pentacost in the Philipines", and "Pentacost in the Coptic Church".--Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 04:44, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed as that's more or less what I proposed five years ago above. Richerman (talk) 17:37, 27 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Spring Bank Holiday[edit]

Why does the link "spring bank holiday" take you to "May Day"? May Day is at the start of May, spring bh at the end. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:93EE:C800:A962:ABB7:9AAE:ACC9 (talk) 09:32, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed it. Richerman (talk) 14:45, 2 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]