Talk:Pencil/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Number 2 pencil

What's a Number 2 pencil then? Rmhermen 16:05 Aug 12, 2002 (PDT) Thanks Rmhermen 06:43 Aug 13, 2002 (PDT) == [[A NUMBER 2 PENCIL IS AN AMAZING DESIGN CREATED BY lAURA!!!!! == ==Erasers==]] "Attaching erasers to the end of pencils is largely a North American phenomenon, and is not the norm in Europe or Asia."

I can't speak for the rest of Europe or Asia but erasers on pencils are far from uncommon in the UK. It's not universal however, so is there really a distinction to be drawn here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mintguy (talk • contribs) 09:07, 1 December 2002 (UTC)

Pencil Shapes

There is very little mention of the shapes of pencils. Not once is the word "hexagon" even mentioned. There should be something explaining which shapes of pencils are more common than others and why.JianLi 05:32, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

What patent issues?

The body of the article mentions that the 2 1/2 pencil (F) has other names "due to patent issues". What are these issues? I can't seem to find it anywhere on the web.

Can the person please elaborate? Thanks.

Also, wouldn't these be trademark issues perhaps? Patent would (I think) apply to a material or a method of manufacturing it. You can't patent the designation "2 1/2", I don't think. Herostratus 04:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

on mechanical pencils

The article says that the mechanical propelling pencils "were widely used in the Victorian era", as if they aren't still used today! Or are they? Is there some other name in English for this plastic/metal pen that takes graphite cylinders 5 to 6 cm in length and 0.5 or 0.7 mm in diameter that I use for writing on paper almost every day? :) --Joy [shallot] 13:56, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hardness scales

I am looking at my Grip 2001 Faber-Castell pencil right now and it says here: 2.5 = HB. According to this the 2.5 hardness level isn't equivalent to F, can anyone verify this? --Friðrik Bragi Dýrfjörð 12:33, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Patents

Is there a patent on left handed pencils? I have a feeling that these left handed pencils I was going to buy on the boardwalk might be counterfits. I just want to be able to notify the proper authorities if it is in fact illegal. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.13.228.14 (talk • contribs) 17:37, 25 June 2005 (UTC)

Koh-I-Noor Hardtmuth

No mention of Hardtmuths family and the Koh-I-Noor pencil? The first yellow laquer pencil, which gave rise to all the other yellow laquer copies? Perhaps the most famous pencil winning prizes at Paris and Wienna exhibitions in ~1889? Franz Hardtuth came with the 17-grade grading system which is still used today, and Josef Hardmuth perfected the process of producing graphite rods after Conté.

-- Frantisek 11:55, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, you may add the infomation. The article Koh-I-Noor pencil and about Josef Hardmuth could be also added. Pavel Vozenilek 17:07, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

The acctual pencil (with reservoir) the romanian Petrache Poienaru in 1827 patented in Viena and then in Paris. please search for this!

"Everybody makes mistakes"

Carl Carlson of The Simpsons once said, "Everybody makes mistakes. That's why they put erasers on pencils..."

Isn't this an old saying? - furrykef (Talk at me) 22:24, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

yeah it's pretty old... but it is still a modern saying invented after 1900 Trick man01 00:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

merge proposal

Pencil lead is basically a duplicate of much of this information, and so I've put up tags suggesting its merged into this article. I'll sort the merge in about a week if there are no objections. Thryduulf 15:18, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Nooo.. pencil lead is good a seperate article.

Thryduulf is correct. The topics are essentially identical. In the name of all that is holy, let them be merged!

Vote against merge -- not all pencils use "pencil lead"; furthermore, "pencil lead" is not always found in pencils. Artists use "naked" graphite sticks. Why not merge "mechanical pencil" with "pencil" instead? Bendybendy 23:29, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Vote for merging. Much of the content is already the same. I just came to the pencil article looking for info on how the 'lead' is altered to affect hardness, whereas having two means I effectively need to then move somewhere else. Concision is a virtue. Smb1001 11:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Oppose: if both dealt fully with their topics, history, etc, there'd need to be two. mgekelly 08:29, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Merge Repetitive, redirect. Especially since "lead" is not the correct term for what's in there anyway. Rufusgriffin 05:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

DON'T MERGE THEM!!!

I concur with the guy above me. I believe that pencil lead and pencil are separate articles and should not be fused. I am in demurrence with any movement to merge the two topics to one article.

P. S. I have a username (Bob the ducq), and use this web site a lot. I think the articles should stay separate, speaking as an active user.

Number 2 pencil?

What is a Number 2 pencil? Could some information be put into this, or a new, article? --Gary King 00:33, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

It's equivalent to HB in the European classification system, and is mentioned int he article. Lisiate 23:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Colour Leads?

The article mentions that the leads of coloured pencils aren't made from graphite, but doesn't elabourate on what they are made from. Might that be something to include?

Certainly. coloured pencil had best be a separate article. This is what the CAMEO tells us http://www.mfa.org/_cameo/frontend/home.asp:

A colored drawing stick encased in a wooden shaft or peel-away paper casing. Colored pencils, often called marking pencils, were first produced in 1835 by J.S. Staetler. These early pencils were composed of a few selected pigments (Prussian blue, chrome yellow, chrome green, etc.) dispersed in clay then baked to form a hard stick. Starting in the 1920s, the number and intensity of the colors were increased and marketing was directed to artists. The colored core of the pencils contain a colorant (pigment or dye) bound with a synthetic resin and some wax. Emulsifiers and dispersion aids were sometimes included. Fillers, such as kaolin, talc, or chalk were also added for opacity and color dilution. They are available in both water-soluble and solvent soluble forms. Many of the colors contain organic dyes that are not lightfast.

Apparently Faber-Castell was the first to produce coloured pencils in the modern sense (i.e. not as industrial markers) in 1924, followed shortly by Stabilo and Caran d'Ache.--MWAK 11:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, we should redirect "Pencil crayon" to this article (Canadian term for coloured pencil). I have no idea how to do that.

See comment below re need for new section. Coloured pencil 'leads' which are artist quality are made from either a wax or an oil base. This varies by manufacturer. Lightfastness is a major issue. Composition of 'pencils for children' varies again. Shouldn't the focus be rather more on the present and rather less on the past? Cosmopolitancats 08:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

2 = B

According to Faber-Castell's USA site, "B" is the same hardness as a "#2". Could we verify the information on the hardness scales used throughout the world?

A quick Google test says that HB is roughly the same as a #2. smurrayinchester^{(User), (Talk)} 20:14, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

According to the Pentel package that contained my lead, "HB" is the same hardness as a "#2".Leon7 04:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Lead poisoning

The "Miscellaneous" section currently contains this sentence: "However, a child has gotten lead poisoning from chewing her pencil because the paint on the outer covering contained lead (need a source, check Chinese news archives)." An anecdote without supporting evidence does not belong in a Wikipedia article. I'm going to delete it. Pat Berry 04:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

DO NOT MERGE THE TWO ARTICLES

They are different things, merging them would be wasting important information

Pencil colours ?

I would be interested to know the source behind the "common pencil colors" section which suggests that various countries have different preferred pencil colours...

This seems to vary more based on the manufacturer? Having lived in the UK all my life I have used and seen a variety of colours from a variety of manufacturers: yellow (Berol & others), red (Berol, Stabilo, others), blue (Staedtler), black (Rexel), yellow/black and red/black striped (Staedtler), blue, purple, green (various store brands) and natural varnished (Rexel). I haven't noticed that any one colour is more prevalent than the other? The images all seem to be of Faber Castell pencils (which aren't the commonest...)... Tjwood 10:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

The common pencil colours date from an earlier period. Between the advent of mass education together with industrialisation and the introduction of the ball point, the pencil — not the pen — was the normal writing medium. They were procured in hugh numbers by schools, companies and the administration. This led to a high level of standardisation and to long term contracts with one manufacturer practically monopolising an entire country. So before the war Germany was dominated by Faber-Castell's green pencil and The Netherlands by Stabilo's red/yellow striped. When one colour scheme became associated with the concept "pencil" other manufacturers then imitated it. The dominance of yellow in the US is mentioned in Victoria Finlay's Colour. Travels Through the Paintbox--MWAK 11:40, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of fact, this point is absurd to be included, as clearly stated, one can buy pencils with any outer colour they desire. This is a trivia point and has far too much prominence in this article. 62.56.99.13 11:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this slightly outdated debate and will therefore delete the nice table. Please do not re-include it unless you canp provide references for its inclusion.—Kncyu38 (talk • contribs) 02:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

History of the pencil?

For such an important instrument, there isn't much of a history written in the article. - Rudykog 18:38, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

It was cut out by a vandal in March with this edit [1], and I only just noticed. Jooler 22:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Coloured Pencils are not the same as Pencils

This whole article seems to confuse pencil colours (ie the colour of exterior of the pencil) and coloured/colored pencils (ie pencils which contain a colour).

I suggest a separate sub-section as a minimum for coloured pencils (maybe a separate section altogether - recognised as a separate media from graphite by artist societies?) as they raise a number of separate issues eg

 composition of the coloured 'lead'; 
 artists quality versus 'for kids'; 
 lightfasteness issues re pigments used in artist quality; 
 number of different brands and ways in which they differ (eg oil based versus wax based, different approaches to lightfastness considerations); 
 different approaches to working with coloured pencils; 
 supports for coloured pencil work; 
 erasers which work with coloured pencils; 
 solvents which can be used with coloured pencils; 
 sharpening considerations; 
 colored pencil societies;  
 etc etc 

Cosmopolitancats 07:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As there have been no adverse comments on this proposal I am going to propose a separate article should be created - which I will try and start soon Cosmopolitancats 16:12, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there needs to be a separate article. I tried to make "coloured pencils" be a red link to suggest that, but it just gets redirected to the pencil page. I plan to research colored pencil makers, and start an article if Cosmopolitancats doesn't do it first.SusieQ7 00:00, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi SusieQ - happy to work with you on this - once I've worked out how on earth to create an article! Cosmopolitancats 01:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you start adding info to the current article, and if the section becomes sufficiently large it can be split into its own article. Should you want to create a colored pencil article, it is currently setup as a redirect. Click the "Redirected from..." message at the top of the page, or go to [2], and click "edit this page" to access the article data. Shoehorn 02:09, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Hexagonal shape?

Are most pencils really hexagonal in shape? Most of the pencils I've encountered have had round cross-sections. Maybe it's true that most expensive pencils are hexagonal, but that's a different matter. Theshibboleth 00:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Faber-Castell color examples

Maybe it's my monitor, but the example of the "American" color pencil looks orange to me. Would it be possible to find a real U.S. pencil to use there, rather than a European pencil that's supposed to be yellow?

Also, any idea why "Castell" is written in what looks like faux-Hebrew on those pencils? -- Mwalcoff 03:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Marks under skin

In 1968 I inadvertently stabbed myself with a pencil in the nail of my left index finger, punching a hole in the nail and leaving a gray mark visible under the nail. The mark is still there almost forty years later.

Space Pen

Pencil article: "This task is not as simple as it seems, as standard ballpoint and fountain pens require gravity in order to function."

Space Pen article: "There exists a common rumor claiming that because a standard ballpoint pen would not work in zero gravity (which is false )..."

I'm confused. Should the Pencil article be edited?
Tajik24 21:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed the line:

This task is not as simple as it seems, as standard ballpoint and fountain pens require gravity in order to function.

As you're right, the reference strongly suggests it's misleading. The article still needs to be improved when someone can confirm what the situation really is Nil Einne 14:48, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I Go to Wikipedia For All Of My Pencil Information

Whenever I'm in need of perspective in the midst of the exciting, changing world of pencils, I always know where to go: Wikipedia! Thank you for your diligence and excess of free time ridding the world of pencil-related ignorance.203.131.167.26 09:08, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

lead pencil

In many parts of the US, the term lead pencil refers solely to the mechanical kind...--Ioshus^(talk) 13:21, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Need a Reference to the National Pencil Museum

http://www.visitcumbria.com/kes/penmus.htm This former production plant was dominant in world production of pencils, typical of industries springing from the English Industrial Revolution. The pouring hot lead into cracks in the wood will work. (A large amount of molten lead would char the wood, but starvation of air would limit ignition, of course.) If you don't believe it, dig up a .22 caliber rifle shell and try it on paper. It seems equivalent to a #3 hardness pencil. However the bullet may not be 100% lead, but it's close. The pencil has no lead, typically, but is mostly graphite. 75.34.93.89 (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Mechanical pencil sharpening?

It talks in the mechanical pencil section about the sizes of leads, and how 2.0 is not used much because it is hard to sharpen? Maybe it should be clarified that lead sizes in general are being talked about.
Kalatix (talk) 22:32, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerning Personality

Does the preference of pencils over pens or the other way round reflects certain aspects of personality? Just curious why some prefer pens and others pencils, could be more than random perhaps.

Interesting question - it could have something to do with the pencil's erasability being favored over the pen's 'sharpness'. Personally I prefer pens but I know a lot of people who prefer pencils, but I can't really make a link between them in the personalities. Maybe someone has done a study on this, it would'nt suprise me now I think about it. Elcaballooscuro (talk) 16:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Removed Vandalism 3/13/2007

Removed vandalism.

Neil D. 136.142.153.157 15:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Ha, ha!

Man! This is written for someone who has never seen a pencil before.

A pencil is a hand-held instument containing an interior strip of solid material that produces marks used to write and draw, usually on paper.

Or a pen...

Pencils are distinct from pens, which use a liquid marking material, ink, usually used on paper too.

Alx xlA 22:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia, which will always assume that the reader is an complete idiot. Don't take it personally, prole. -Uagehry456|Talk_{JordanhillVote} 00:52, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Though I do find that funny - I can't really think of anything better for an intro, straight to the point with a perfectly clear explanation. Anyone with a basic understanding of english could follow that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elcaballooscuro (talk • contribs) 16:28, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

What about Coloured Pencils?!

It doesn't tell me anything about how colour pencils are made! Coloured_pencils redirects here but no information on them

there is even a picture of colour pencils. But no info on them. What's the lead of a colour pencil made from, for example?--345Kai 03:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, in Canada coloured pencils are universally known as "pencil crayons". The urban legend is that the term comes from bilingual packaging on Laurentien brand coloured pencils, which had "Pencil Crayon" at the top. --68.144.68.238 (talk) 09:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is this protected?

The history doesn't seem to indicate any mass vandalism beyond the ordinary? 76.202.63.233 23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear! I tried to edit to make couple of minor changes (eg link Staedtler to their wikipedia page) but can't. I think maybe anonymous contributors are being sidelined on WP even in cases like this where there is no reason.  :( :( 62.31.160.66 (talk) 20:48, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Brief but intense vandalism from a couple of anon IP in early September 2008. I supported it then, would support relaxing it now. (Mind you, I'd also be a lot heavier with blocks for this sort of vandalism.) Andy Dingley (talk) 09:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

"Plumbago" usage

It is well to mention this alternate name once, but using it throughout the article is not advisable since it is an antiquated name and it is confusing since it refers to both graphite and lead in various capacities. Indeed, the latin root word means lead. If you search for "plumbago" above, you will find that the flower was named after lead. Therefore, for the sake of clarity, I am changing every instance to something else. Also, the translation of plumbego seems to be in error, so I'll change that. --Vlmastra 15:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

What's more is that according to Petroski, lead was in fact used before graphite. It's just that graphite made a better mark. Denimadept 05:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

See also trivia

The "see also" list in this article is very trivial, and I believe it should be removed. Does anyone disagree? Burntsauce 23:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I can't tell which list you are referring to. Anyways, there is definitely some nonessential trivia under "miscellaneous". Or are you referring to the references? --Vlmastra 17:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Intro sentence

I've tweaked this a bit to be a little more inclusive. I will reinforce with pictures of specialty pencils such as woodless graphite pencils and charcoal pencils. I'd also like to reorganize the article so that it has the following categories:

History

Manufacture - to be editied to describe process, not graphite specific

Appearance and materials - to organize the "yellow exterior" note and various common pencil marking materials. Mechanical pencil, Quadrachromic and other misc pencils will be in this subhead

Trivia - to contain the "Pencils in space" portion

If no objection in the next day or so, I will do it. Mrs Scarborough 17:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Mixes for different grades

According to Petroski the hardness of pencils is not standardized, hence HB does not mean the same from one company to another (this is supported by my own tests). Hence, the table with theproportion of clay to graphite cannot be valid for all brands of pencils.Dmgerman 18:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed this table today. There is no evidence it was true. I also updated references to other facts in the grading section. Some of the other references were either web pages with little standing or clearly stated that they had used Petrosky as a reference. The current references are now either Petrosky, or two pencil companies: Staedtler and Derwent.Dmgerman 07:51, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

color pencil

Do we think that Image:RossBleckner.jpg shows a color pencil sketch better than the current image? Since I uploaded it, I don't want to presume... --Knulclunk 04:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

"most pencils are round"

..are they?

it's my (personal) experience that most pencils are hexagonal, rather than hexagonal pencils being only "quite common too", so I'd like to see a footnote or reference supporting the statement "most pencils are round". maybe its an american/european discrepancy, but in that case it should be noted as such.

i do note Theshibboleth's comments in 2005, almost the opposite of what i am saying, but there is clearly two sides to it. clearly the issue swung from "most pencils are A" to "most pencils are B". do we need it to be so polarised? pencils obviously come in a variety of sections, with round and hexagonal being the two main shapes.

i didn't change the article, but would like to see it changed or the "fact" referenced.

Arkizzle 09:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If you want to see a reference, add {{Fact}}, as you suggested. Denimadept 12:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Pencil Lead

"Late last week, Canada announced it was recalling thousands of pencils made in China because of fears they were coated with too much lead."[3]

There may not be any lead in modern pencils -- but there can still be lead in the paint on the pencils, all the better to chew on.-69.87.203.198 11:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I bet Pb was used all over the world in pencil lead to lower the cost of manufacturing - especially so if someone had an monopoly on good graphite. -- Emana (Talk) 21:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I recall my father telling of making pencils in his one-room schoolhouse during the Great Depression. He said the method was to pour lead into the cracks in the floor boards, and then use the thin strips of lead as pencils. Does this make any sense? My father wasn't the type to make up such a story, and he's not around anymore to get the details from him. Can actual lead be used in this way? Eastcote (talk) 18:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems unlikely. Lead (metal) pencils have a long history, but not generally in schools of the 20th century. You'd need to use a hard slate to write on, rather than paper, and lead (metal) is difficult to erase from that. I'd expect such schools to be using slates, but writing with chalk on them rather than a metallic pencil.

If you fancy re-creating metallic pencils, it's worth alloying the lead. Some bismuth gives a much more visible line, especially for drawing onto iron or steel. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:13, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Seems highly unlikely as molten lead is hot enough to make most wood ignite. Also I don't think lead can be used to mark on paper very well. It was used in the yellow paint on the outside of pencils though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.172.122 (talk) 02:40, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Lead will cast into some woods well enough, as the wood in contact with it chars immediately, but doesn't go any further than that. If you don't mind high wear on a discardable mould, fast wear isn't a problem. Inlaying molten lead-based alloys into wood for decorative uses has a long history, although that usually uses an alloy to lower the melting point. Woods metal would do it at boiling water temperatures. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I've seen an excavated lead pencil from early 18th C. America- it was a thin strip of hammered lead rolled into a cylinder. Saxophobia (talk) 14:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Color/Colour

...seems to be some of each usage here. I think we should use all one or the other. Checking the history suggests that the earliest usage was colour but it was from text sourced elsewhere? The use of both has been here a long while. Barring any objections I will change it to one or the other but haven't decided which yet. :) ++Lar: t/c 18:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I've corrected it. British English has been used on this article for a long time with the occasional temporary change. Jooler 19:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

British English but US measurements? Britain is metric now (although it's not obvious). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.238.209.97 (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you read WP:MOSNUM, WP:ENGVAR and perhaps Metrication in the United Kingdom. I am thirty-seven years old, so am technically born in the decimal age, but I would not have bought a new steel ruler today unless it had inches on it. I use metric/SI all day at work and Imperial in my private life. Whether the article is in British or US English is irrelevant for the measure, which should be in both metric and US Customary/Imperial, to satisfy the widest readership. SimonTrew (talk) 18:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

But there is no point overdoing it. It may be unproductive to talk about a 0.3 mm (0.0118 in) diameter pencil lead. It is a 0.3 mm (nominal) pencil lead, and nothing else. Mutatis mutandis if it were 0.01 inch. Whether to convert the units of measure must, ultimately, rest with the editors of the article taking WP:COMMON. SimonTrew (talk) 18:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Section moved from article

Other methods used

Australian Natives were using them for hundreds of years by using different colored sandstone grinded so that they could dip the tip in saliva and write of the walls with them. This is how they drew cave drawings of their history and religous beliefs.

I have moved a section of the article here because it has a few problems. It's unsourced, doesn't fit the tone of the article and seems to imply that a liquid is used, making it a form of pen rather than a pencil. If anyone would like to fix these issues and put it back in the article they are more than welcome. --Apyule 07:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotected!

It's about time. - Denimadept 15:28, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

guess what!!! pencils are a rare resource worth millions of $$$ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.57.106.249 (talk) 16:44, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Needs Improvement

The value of graphite was soon realized to be enormous, mainly because it could be used to line the moulds for cannon balls, and the mines were taken over by the Crown and guarded. Graphite had to be smuggled out for use in pencils. Because graphite is soft, it requires some form of case. Graphite sticks were at first wrapped in string or in sheepskin for stability. The news of the usefulness of these early pencils spread far and wide, attracting the attentions of artists all over the "known world."

This paragraph belies its many authors. It doesn't flow, has unrelated ideas, and is illogical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.211.24 (talk) 01:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Graphite marks

"Years" is correct. I made one such around 1974 and it's still there. - Denimadept (talk) 14:30, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

H-B denomination

I'm surprised to read that the B letter mean black and not bold. Does someone have a reference for that ? --Jeanuel (talk) 13:30, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

History of graphite pencils is incomplete without reference to Windsor and Newtons' F (=firm) and BBBB = black and broad, & Dixon's grading system which included VVS (very very soft), MB (medium black) H (hard) VVH (very very hard) etc. Dixons are attributed with the development of round "leads"... actually an important development because they were (and are) easier to sharpen by rotary sharpener than the preceding square or rectangular leads (see page 1658 of Knight's American Mechanical Dictionary: A Description of Tools, Instruments, Machines, Processes, and Engineering; History of Inventions; General Technological Vocabulary; and Digest of Mechanical Appliances in Science and the Arts, by Edward Henry Knight, published by Hurd and Houghton, 1876). "B" is certainly meant to imply "black" or "blackness" (see page 372 in "Chambers's Encyclopaedia: A Dictionary of Universal Knowledge for the People" edited by William Geddie, published by J.B. Lippincott & co., 1883, & p18 in "The Elements of Perspective: Illustrated by Numerous Examples And Diagrams by Aaron Edwin Penley, published by Winsor and Newton, 1856), though by comparison with Hardness, B in reality represents the softness. (see p 15 in "St. Nicholas: A Monthly Magazine for Boys and Girls" by Mary Mapes Dodge, published by Scribner & Co., 1877 & p 65 in "A Guide to Oil Painting by J S Templeton & Alfred Clint published by G. Rowney and Co., 1877).76.110.165.21 (talk) 22:14, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Liquid Graphite

Needs to be updated with the new invention ( Patent Application #: 20060147252) of liquid graphite pencils —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.145.253.1 (talk) 00:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you give a resource of where this info came from? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stealth500 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

See here: http://theskrilla.com/2010/08/09/sharpie-liquid-pencil-baffles-every-office-supply-store/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.158.5.131 (talk) 11:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

By the existing definition of a pencil, liquid pencils are not pencils (I guess they are pens), so to include them would require a new definition of pencil for this article.KDMP (talk) 01:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Pencil types, other

In the article, at the bottom of pencil types according to use, there is mention of a "penny pencil". What is that? There is a book series about a "Penny Pencil" character, so search engines are not helpful on that point. I remember a time when junk mail would sometimes come with pencils, very thin and short (to be cheaper to mail). I want to know if that style had a special name and what it may be. --Elijah (talk) 19:06, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

"Penny pencil" is a term used to describe an unfinished pencil, ie without paint or varnish.76.110.165.21 (talk) 01:58, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Graphite reference request

How can we keep referring to the Petroski book? - Denimadept (talk) 20:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Seathwaite hamlet is not Seathwaite Fell

There was a time (until just recently) that the only wikipedia article that mentioned "Seathwaite" was the Seathwaite Fell article. An avid Cumbrian hillwalker has pointed out that the graphite mine in the vicinity of Borrowdale parish was on the approach to the Grey Knotts hill, which is about 2 km north of Seathwaite Fell. Note that Cumbria has several places named Seathwaite. The mine was quite close to a hamlet by the name of Seathwaite (the text of the Grey Knotts article separately lists the map coordinates for the original location of the graphite mine, it is not at the summit of Grey Knotts). I think it would be more appropriate for the passage on the Cumbrian graphite mine in this article to instead read something like the following:

Some time before 1665 (some sources say as early as 1600), an enormous deposit of graphite was discovered on the approach to Grey Knotts from the hamlet of Seathwaite in Borrowdale parish, Cumbria, England.

Please note also that one of this article's cited references (namely this one) does not support the notion that the old graphite mine was on the hill named Seathwaite Fell, but instead mentions Grey Knotts explicitly, and when it refers to "Seathwaite" seems to be referring to the hamlet of Seathwaite in Borrowdale, and not to the Fell. I hope this specific graphite mine location information helps you to improve the accuracy of this article. 67.86.73.252 (talk) 15:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Years have been updated in the proposal to match existin text. I'd like to put it into the article soon. 67.86.73.252 (talk) 01:56, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed clause that is now part of the second sentence. 67.86.73.252 (talk) 01:26, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The proposed sentence rewrite has been placed into the article. 67.86.73.252 (talk) 01:14, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Typo found

Under the heading, "Pencil Types", subheading, "According to their use", then under "Copying Pencils", the last sentence in that paragraph says, "There were used until...". It should say "THESE were used until..."

So why don't you fix it? This is a Wiki after all.... BlakJakNZ (talk) 06:30, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

The pencil was created by Joe Dox. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.106.180.234 (talk) 13:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

is this true?

i have been told that a HB pencil cand raw a line something like 35.5 miles long is this true? Luke12345abcd (talk) 19:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

That's going to depend on the thickness of the lead and the length of the pencil. "How long is a piece of string" comes to mind.... BlakJakNZ (talk) 07:16, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

According to Discover science magazine an average pencil can draw a continous line 56 kms long. It can write underwater and can also write normally in space as it is unaffected by temperature or vacuum. Maybe that should go in the article somewhere. Wayne (talk) 15:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Caption, soviet pencils

The picture is of good quality and relevancy, but the word "old" in the caption captured my attention. The history of this particular subject is so long, that hardly something that has been manufactured 50 years ago can be described as being "old". An adjective pointing towards age is hardly necessary in an encyclopedia anyway? -hrdrae(at)gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.63.231 (talk) 05:05, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Conte pencil

The modern Conte pencil is not a graphite pencil at all! Yes it is usually wood-cased, but it is a hard colored "pastel" crayon. The article does not make it clear that Conte did not encase graphite!76.110.165.21 (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Conté make graphite pencils too. Conté's original invention was indeed to make the first "modern" pencil (i.e. clay & powdered graphite, rather than pure graphite). As Conté are the main maker for the eponymous pastels, this type of pencil has become known generically as a "Conté", but that doesn't mean Conté don't make others too. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:11, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

pencil

are use to write —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.235.100 (talk) 01:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Pencils made from recycled paper?

What about pencils made from recycled paper? There are several versions in the market that promote the green cause.

Molder08 (talk) 19:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Green pencils in Germany?

There is no source given that pencils in Germany "often" are green. I live in Germany, and I cannot remember having used one green pencil within the last 25 years. In fact, the vast majority of them were blue (the pencils from Staedler as shown in the first picture).

So unless a source for that statement can be given, I'd say: Either add blue-colored pencils to the examples or delete the green color/Faber-Castell reference entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.130.240.31 (talk) 16:47, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Video showing manufacture

The fifteen-minute video "Enpitsu no dekiru made", #6 in the series "Making" on the Science Channel web site, shows the major steps in the manufacture of commercial products. Although it's written in Japanese, the visuals are worth a look. Fg2 (talk) 12:39, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Notable Pencil Users... Not so notable?

The notable pencil users section seems more like trivia, and very trivial trivia at that. "Soandso didn't like thisandthat type of pencil, so he used a different one"... I propose that the section be removed. Primalmoon (talk) 19:16, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I like it. The people are all notable, and their foibles don't seem entirely trivial. But then I'm an obsessive about my Derwents 8-) Andy Dingley (talk) 00:04, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Trivia should be incorporated in an article body but unfortunately this particular trivia is not suitable for that. The people are notable in their own right so a little flexibility in policy is required as the "trivia" is relevant to the topic. What is most important is if readers will find it interesting and relevant enough in relation to the topic to warrant it's retention. Though trivia usually tends to be irrelevant I'd say it is relevant in this case but then it was me that added it. I do feel the section title could be improved though. Wayne (talk) 04:03, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Any notable person has at some point in their life almost certainly been a pencil user. TallNapoleon (talk) 13:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

True, and that would be uninteresting. These pencil users had some unusual relationship with their pencils. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:56, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Role of standarized (scantron) testing and #2 pencils

I'd like to see some information on machine recognition of pencil marks as used on tests such as scantron. Specifically, why they claim to require #2 pencils, and if this has influenced the market and popularity of such pencils. 64.58.0.170 (talk) 06:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

There is an page about it in the Imponderables book When do Fish Sleep?, ISBN 0-06-016161-2, on page 109. Apparently, hard pencil marks can not be picked up by the machine and soft pencil marks get smudged easily.98.166.139.216 (talk) 21:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Plastic Pencil

I'd like to propose that you add material, below, about the Plastic Pencil that appears on this website:

http://adlittlechronicles.blogspot.com/2008/07/epcon-plastic-pencil.html

---

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.208.211 (talk) 16:01, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

As requested, Irv Arons has added a section about the Plastic Pencil, along with a link to the complete writeup on his blog. Irv Arons (talk) 22:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

The author is Irv Arons. In the copy, below, the word "I" refers to Mr. Arons.

I do not know how to edit Wikipedia entries, but, hopefully someone can consider adding this information, which I think is important. Please let me know what you do: steve.low@gordianconcepts.com

_____________Irv Arons (talk) 22:46, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

In 1969, Hasbro Toy Company hired the Product Development Section (as it was known at the time) of Arthur D. Little, to develop an all-plastic pencil. Wood pencils were made of red cedar grown in the Pacific North West, while Hasbro’s pencil subsidiary, Empire Pencil Company, operated out of Shellbyville, Tennessee, in the South East.

Wood pencils are traditionally made by grooving half slabs of red cedar; placing ceramic graphite leads into the grooves and gluing the two slabs together. Individual pencils are then hand machined from the glued slabs, painted, eraser ferrules attached, and then packaged for marketing. The idea behind the all-plastic pencil was to reduce product costs by eliminating the hand machining and providing an automated production process.

The ADL effort was led by Richard Merrill. I worked on the composition of the materials for the pencil casing, which had to be as stiff and sharpenable as its wooden brethren, and Richard Merrill, Bob Eller, and Arthur Drennan worked on developing a co-extrusion process wherein a “plastic lead” could be extruded within the plastic casing to make a continuous plastic pencil.

After making and testing hundreds of casing composition formulas, I settled on a mixture of ABS plastic, wood flour (for sharpenability), and aluminum stearate (for lubrication during the extrusion process). (The “plastic lead” was supplied by Empire Pencil.) While the casing compound was under development, several iterations of the co-extrusion processes were tried, until a co-extrusion mold and process was found that could be successfully used to produce the plastic pencils.

About 5 years after the project initiation, in 1974, a casing formulation and co-extrusion process were finalized, and the plastic pencil was born (and patented (1, 2)).

A pilot line was set up in Empire’s plant in Shelbyville and. after some fine-tuning, pilot production was set. Soon after, several additional extrusion lines were established, and by 1975, the EPCON pencil began commercial production.

The pencils were produced “by the mile”, painted in-line, cut to length, an eraser and ferrule attached, and packaged for sale.

1. U. S. Patent No. 3,993,408, Pencil comprising a marking core and a porous resin sheath, Irving J. Arons, Robert Eller, Richard E. Merrill, October 29, 1974.

2. U.S. Patent No. 3,983,195, Pencil sheath compositions, method for making pencils, Irving J. Arons, Robert Eller, Richard E. Merrill, September 28, 1976.

Gordianconcepts (talk) 02:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)Steve Low, 2/8/09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gordianconcepts (talk • contribs)

Just alerting you to a programme

There is a programme on BBC World Service at the moment about the manufacture of pencils since 1810. It is incredibly dulll. Iam just letting anyone know in case they need a reference.

Forgot to sign: Right now = SimonTrew (talk) 01:45, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh I should have added most people can pick these up at bbcworld.com

pencil lead incandesence

A pencil lead (carbon) has a resistance on the order of one ohm. Running appropriate current through a mechanical pencil lead produces light by incandesence: www.instructables.com/id/Lead_light_Not_a_LED/ -- www.softwarepunk.com/blog/pencil-lead-resistors.1024px has good pictures of using them as cheap/handy-household-object dummy loads. -71.174.182.182 (talk) 01:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Removed Vandalism

I removed the vandalism in the citation: "were [sic] I *expletive* my cousin" - I removed this text. Do people check for vandalism in the citations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.126.46.147 (talk) 14:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

The history shows many reversions all across the article, and many people (including myself) have it in their watchlist, and will review all changes. You just happened to be the first to spot this.

More pertinently, do the bots check for apparent vandalism in the citations? I'd find it would be useful if you could give the appropriate diff when it was entered, as I've gone back a few and can't find it. SimonTrew (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Found it. Two vandalistic edits were made between these edits (the later of which is a reversion). The reverter seems to have reverted the later vandalism but left the earlier one. Easy thing to miss. SimonTrew (talk) 20:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Pop a point pencils and push a point pencils

Also known as Push-A-Point Pencils

Bensia was invented in 1960s by a Taiwanese shipbuilder (a workman), who patented this design and sold it for 8 million NT dollar to a Taiwanese textile enterpriser, who has been manufacturing and marketing "Bensia" (meaning "no sharpening required" in Taiwanese language) since then. (see 科學人雜誌，Oct. 2009, page 99） —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.250.141.235 (talk) 06:28, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

History section

The whole history section sounds awful. It is illogically ordered and full of seeming folklore and urban legend, unattributed references, and unreferenced attributions. I think it needs an expert's touch, but figured I would raise the issue here to see what others thought before putting up the box.Bearnfæder (talk) 05:08, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Permanent pencil

Question. Would a pencil, albeit with solid lead chich contain permanent pigment (not graphite) which cannot be erased, can still be considered as pencil? Yosri (talk) 01:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

What is modern pencil lead composed of?

The common pencil lead was originally composed of graphite, china clay and water. In 2009 British experiments proved that the introduction of experimental ingredients, in relation to the ratio of pure carbon or synthetic graphite, provided a drawing instrument superior to the original recipe.

NUCA VS3 (2009) updated ingredients for experimental pencil lead (prototype 3):

-20 1/2 tablespoon of synthetic graphite powder -1 tablespoon of dried thyme -10 3/4 tablespoon of china clay -1 1/2 teaspoons freshly ground black pepper -1 1/2 teaspoons cayenne pepper -1 1/2 teaspoons ground sage -3/4 teaspoon ground nutmeg -3/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon -2 tablespoons salt -2 tablespoons garlic powder -1 tablespoon sugar -1/4 cup olive oil -1/4 cup soy sauce -3/4 cup white vinegar -1/4 cup orange juice -juice of 1 lime -1 scotch bonnet -1 cup white onion -3 green onions

The third experiment consisted of mixing the ingredients for 72 hours and then a further 3 hours adding more water. It was then baked in a kiln at 900 degrees and then empregnated with oil. Different ratios of graphite determine how hard/soft the lead will be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sunrawatcher (talk • contribs) 16:27, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

For health reasons, I prefer to include a cup of red wine--actually, the spices above are preposterous, and so is my wine recommendation. 75.34.93.89 (talk) 15:57, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

pencil

It can comes in many colors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.184.51.57 (talk) 02:41, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Updated link to Koh-i-noor pencil website

http://www.koh-i-noor.cz/en/produkty/grafitove-tuzky valid 2009-12-23 ShamusLit (talk) 00:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Formative pencils

I believe the article needs information on formative pencils, used by young children as they learn to write. The formative pencils are thicker than standard pencils to assist with grip, and are usually of softer grade (2B rather than the standard HB). I am unsure whether these are used worldwide or not and request more information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.89.188.248 (talk) 06:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Origin: Contradictions

This article appears in different languages and these articles have significantly different (etymological) explanations for the origin of the (lead in a) pencil.

Ex.:

The English & Simple English version: Graphite was assumed to be lead, because of a poor knowledge of chemistry in those days.

The Dutch version: The predecessor of the pencil was a pen actually made out of lead.

The German & French Version: Combines the above.

Moreover, some of these articles go back a few centuries, while others go back millennia.

213.47.144.254 (talk) 12:16, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

There's no real contradiction here. Pencils made of lead (metal) were long used by ironworkers to draw on steel (mostly replaced by chalk these days) and so a "pencil" (under that name) had established some recognition as such, and as being made of lead. Graphite's names as plumbago (from the Latin for lead metal, plumbum) and by extension as blacklead were from its admitted resemblance to lead, and there simply being no need to call it anything else. There's no indication that plumbago was some sort of "fool's lead" and confused as being lead, merely that it had a name reflecting its resemblance. The plumbago plants, the leadworts, are named such on account of their greyish lead-like colouring, with no suggestion they were metallic. Most importantly though, "graphite" as a name derives from the Greek for writing (graphos etc.) - it wasn't, indeed couldn't be applied to plumbago/graphite until this was established for use in writing. Chronologically, the name is contemporary with Conté at the end of the 18th century. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:33, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Pastel pencils as a distinct pencil type

Pastel pencils could be listed as a distinct type of pencil since they are distinct from "colored pencils". Reviews of certain brands of pastel pencils at online art supply stores say that when the pencil is dropped, the lead shatters throughout the whole length of the pencil, making it useless. If true, this is a curious fact. I have not used the particular brands that have this supposed fragility.

Tashiro (talk) 04:32, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Lead pencil

The term 'lead pencil' may be inaccurate, but it's one I heard a lot when I was younger. Perhaps it's falling out of use because 'graphite pencil' is the preferred term, but to say that Bleistift is still used in German while banishing the term 'lead pencil' from the article (even a passing mention) seems a bit ridiculous to me. Wikipedia is supposed to be about human knowledge. Why is knowledge of the term 'lead pencil' expunged from the article? Is it because someone has decided that it is 'wrong' and we have to use 'graphite pencil' instead?

202.131.238.35 (talk) 01:57, 27 January 2011 (UTC)