Talk:Nichelle Nichols/Archive 1

Archive 1

Discussion

Cut and moved this; it needs revision:

In her work on ST:TOS(Star Trek:The Original Series), Nichols was the only regular cast member who did not have a contract and this was because of her race and prejudice among the studio executives. However, Gene Roddenberry promised that he would keep her as "busy" as the other ST:TOS actors in her role of Uhuru. Her role was still not as fulfilling as she wanted, which led to her wishing to quit and to Dr. King's request to her not to quit in order to boost the image and hopes of African Americans in US society.

Unfortunately, ST originator Gene Rodenberry initiated something of a dishonest affair with Nichols, and suddenly one day drove her to Majel Barrett's house to show Nichelle that he had a relationship with Barrett that would supersede any with Nichols. Nichelle accepted it well and continued to be a big contributor to Star Trek in its various incarnations. Later, at the end of his life when Roddenberry was extremely ill, he became delerious at a gathering in his honor and lamented loudly how he had always loved Nichols best. Some sources think that he did not marry Nichelle because an interacial marriage would have ruined his career. Nichols, always taking the high road, took Barrett aside at the gatherong to assure her that Gene loved Majel and was just delirious. Nichelle has always risen above prejudicial and unfair circumstances in her life and is still an excellent role model, just as Dr. King proclaimed her to be many years earlier.

Remove opinion, anything unsubstantiated, write in NPOV, explain who Roddenberry and Barrett are, do not editorialize.

Quill 23:11, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Most of that sounds really made up. I'd think something like this would have found it's way to Star trek Circles by now: I suggest this part be cited before being added in any re-write. - AJHalliwell 19:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Read "Beyond Uhura". I own a copy. The section is almost lifted word for word from her own admissions. She has admitted to the affair, and it never seemed to bother her or harm her life. I think it may be appropriate to leave it in, as an affair between a producer and an actor is a conflict of interest which regrettably casts aspersions on Nichols's casting. (Don't get me wrong - I think she earned her part and played it well. But some will think that, and accuse us of covering it up.)

It's also true that she overcame a lot of racism and hatred in her life. She mentions several times she was the victim of racial prejudice and misogyny. I'm not sure whether it would be appropriate to air those on wikipedia though. More info on her family life and marriage would be appropriate, though. Personal opinion: what a lady.

-Kasreyn 07:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read all of "Beyond Uhura". (As I recall, Nichols is listed as writer.) The bit about not getting a contract is there. Don't know about the rest.Dannman (talk) 15:44, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

There's an error in the introduction stating Nichols leant her voice to the character of Uhuru in Futurama. She actually played herself as a member of Al Gore's Vice Presidential Action Rangers, an "elite team of nerds". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.127.55.98 (talk) 16:32, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Proper Rank

On the article for the character Uhura it states that Uhura's rank is that of commander. The image caption on this article states Nichols as Lt. Uhuru. I have also noticed in some parodies the character Uhura referred to as Lt. Uhura. Could anyone confirm the character Uhura's actual rank and fix the caption? --Sudachi 14:55, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Both are in fact correct: the Uhura article gives her 'current' rank (i.e. the rank she had obtained the last time she was seen in accordance with the time line of the Star Trek series and films) while the image refers to her as Lt. Uhura because that was her rank at the time that image depicts. I hope that makes some kind of sense... SteveW 20:28, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• • In the picture, Uhura is a Lieutenant. But over time she'd been promoted to Commander. (what he said). -AJHalliwell 19:06, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

NASA Recruitment

I added four of the people, she recruited for NASA. The names are copied from her german Article. This is also mentioned least in the Ronald McNair article in the english Wikipedia. 141.22.4.130 13:27, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Added background

New bio information added which should remove current status of dispute.

WSpaceport 03:35, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Interracial

In it she states that she had a lengthy interracial love affair with Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry.

I appreciate that the affair occured in a time when it was still controversial in certain places for interracial relationships but given that the affair was largely a secret and as such the interracial aspect of it was never significant, is it really necessary to say it's interracial? It seems to me the bigger issue is the allegation as mentioned in the Gene Roddenberry page the affair may have been the motivation for her role as Uhura Nil Einne 22:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the word "interracial" in the section in question. When I can find the time, I'm going to check my copy of her autobio to see whether the affair occurred before or after ST. Kasreyn 21:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It was before. In fact, Rodenberry's last-minute addition of her to the cast was presented to the studio executives by stating, "I'd like to add some color to the bridge." I can't find a citation, but I heard it in an interview over 15 years ago (before his death), and it's probably quoted in her book, too. --Dennette 21:30, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Cool, thanks!  :) Kasreyn 00:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Did she employ the word "interracial" in this context? That influences relevance.

Hopiakuta 17:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I have changed the wording around to say it was the first kiss between interracial characters, not actors (note Frances Nguyen, who played an alien in Elaan of Troyius) Kransky 09:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The kiss is widely recognised as the first ever kiss between a black and white couple ever broadcast on TV. Shouldn't more be made of this - given the year of the program and the taboo issues that surrounded interracial partnerships at the time? Jacobsdad (talk) 12:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Why was that the first interracial kiss? Didn't Marlon Brando kissed interacially in the Mutiny on the Bounty- 1962? Maby just first between a white and a black... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.157.207.250 (talk) 20:30, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Nichelle_Nichols Grace Nichols

Hopiakuta 17:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Do we need to create some sort of disambiguation link at the top of one of the pages in order to deal with this? Or is the fact that their current names are different enough to avoid reader confusion? Kasreyn 01:51, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

One of the first African-American Women Featured in a Non-stereotypical role on a major television series

Cicely Tyson, who played the role of a secretary on the 1963/64 series "East Side/West Side," was actually the first African-American woman in a non-stereotypical role in a major American series. Though the show is rarely seen today, it starred George C. Scott and received favorable notices for Miss Tyson's work when it was aired. Therefore I have changed Miss Nichols' bio to read "one of the first African-American women in a major series." Sir Rhosis 05:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The Little Rascals had African American kids as equals with whites, came out in film in the 1920s. While not being television, this deserves to be a milestone more than Star Trek's highly conditional claim. Kransky 11:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Star Trek in Britain

I have removed the line "It was over twenty-five years before it was broadcast on British television" from the Star Trek section, regarding the so-called "inter-racial" kiss in the episode "Plato's Stepchildren." This was not pulled from British TV for the kiss scene, rather because of viewer complaints about "sadistic violence" in certain episodes. Star Trek was shown very early in the evening, and was watched by a lot of children. The original complaint was about the episode Miri. The BBC reviewed subsequent episodes and dropped "Plato's Stepchildren", "The Empath" and "Whom Gods Destroy."

Leesonic 14:14, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Birth Year

Is there a source for a 1932 year of birth? As a long-time ST fan, I've always sen 1933 as her birth year. Sir Rhosis 12:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

IMDB gives it as 1932, Memory Alpha as 1933. But I haven't found a reliable source (yet). Garion96 (talk) 12:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Psychic encounters

No mention of her involvement with "psychic encounters" MrMarmite (talk) 09:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Alleged Meeting With MLK

• In the late 1970s, Nichols, interviewed on "Nova" (iirc), stated quite clearly that it was a phone call from Dr. King that got her to change her mind about leaving "Star Trek.". Long-time convention-goers on several Trek Boards state the story has changed considerably over the years. This leads me to believe Dr. King never contacted her in any form or fashion, however, I am loathe to add this info as it may appear meanspirited and/or prejudicial. What do the Admins and other posters think? Sir Rhosis 18:33, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

She says this in one of the DVD featurettes for Star Trek: The Original Series (I can't remember which, but it is there). She also mentions it on the recent PBS documentary series "Pioneers of Televion" (the Science Fiction episode).99.150.204.57 (talk) 03:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

We can only summarize verifiable information from reliable sources. If she says she had a conversation then we should report that (if we think it notable). If others have notably questioned the assertion then we should summarize their viewpoint as well. But gossip at a convention would not count as a reliable source. Have any articles mentioned the discrepancies? Do any bios of MLK mention the conversation? -Will Beback 22:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I cannot recall the source but I have heard that MLK's "people" have said that they cannot confirm nor deny that Dr. King and Nichols met. I have not seen a newspaper or interviewer question her story about the supposed meeting. Again, I think most people back off lest they be called nasty names for daring to question her everchanging version of the story.

My main source, as I noted, is not the convention gossip, but Nichols' own words in the 1970s interview, which I do not have a copy of, nor, honestly, can I swear that it was "Nova" (the main thrust of the interview concerned her activities as a NASA recruiter, and the "telephone call from Dr. King" was just something she dropped into the conversation). I do one hundred percent remember that she definitely said it was a phone call. But, as I said, since I cannot point to the specific date of the interview, I am somewhat hesitant about posting it.

Thanks for getting back to me. I appreciate it. Sir Rhosis 23:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Since there is doubt about the nature of it, I've changed "change and moving meeting" to "conversation". That doesn't imply a face to face meeting and could include a telephone call. As more sources become available we can refine the assertion. Cheers, -Will Beback 00:41, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

The first time I heard this story from Nichelle in the convention circuit, she told the crowd that "She was going to quit, but thought about what Doctor King would want her to do." A few years later, her story had changed to recieving a letter at the Desilu studios. The next time the story changed, it was a phone call at Desilu, then again to a civil rights event. Finally she met him 'in person' at a civil rights event (which is the current iteration of this story). All versions of these stories have appeared in Creation Con literature over the years, and her recorded interviews have stated various versions as well. To put it succintly, this entire story is a LIE. - 97.112.143.136 (talk) 15:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

That is pretty strong language, just because, mostly in your opinion, the story has changed over the years, doesn't mean the entire story is fabricated. Akuvar (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

The original version may have indeed been true, but no version since has been. The main problem is that every last one of her versions of this story is parroted as fact - but doesn't it seem odd to you that the implication of the story is that Nichelle Nichols was more important to the civil rights movement (which had climaxed years before Star Trek already) than Doctor King himself? - 97.112.143.136 (talk) 03:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that's the implication, but I still agree it would be great if this was sourcable from someplace other than her book, and that what people hear at a convention can not be used as source material or a basis for us jumping to conclusions. If there were a youtube video of one of her talks where she tells this story, that would be valuable. Akuvar (talk) 15:43, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Image

I just uploaded Image:Nichelle Nichols in the Dragon Con 2007 parade.jpg in case you want to use it. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 19:31, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

"Southern" TV stations refusing to show "Plato's Stepchildren"

I put a "citation needed" tag after the sentence, "The episode was not telecast in some Southern cities as a result of the protests in those states".

To put it bluntly, I'm about 99.9997% sure this is totally untrue. Although the "interracial kiss" generated some controversy and reaction, numerous articles written on the subject over the years suggested that it produced more "controversy" amongst NBC's censors than amongst any other group. In fact, I can recall reading numerous articles that state that while the censors *warned* that stations in the south *might* refuse to air the episode, *none actually DID refuse.*

I came very close to simply deleting the line, as I'm strongly of the opinion it isn't true. However, I decided to leave the "citation needed" tag for a week or so and see if anyone can find a credible citation that some station did, in fact, refuse to air "Plato's Stepchildren" because of the kiss.

If no credible citation is forthcoming, I believe this sentance should be struck. (and will probably do so myself in no one else does). -Fish Man

---Well, after several weeks with the "citation needed", none was forthcoming; and since I have a distinct memory of hearing both Gene Rodenberry and Nichelle Nicols, when speaking at CON's and (in the case of GR) universities, stating that the censors *warned* that southern TV stations might refuse to air the episode but also emphatically stating that *none actually DID (refuse)*, I believe the claim is without any credible reference and is, in fact, not true. -Fish Man

---It's now about 90 days. No citation forthcoming. I've removed the reference for the second time. PLEASE, IF ANYONE FEELS COMPELLED TO PUT THIS CLAIM BACK IN, FIND A SOURCE CITATION!!!  :) -Fish Man

--Fishman is correct, and this section is wrong on several counts. There was NO interracial kiss. It was censored. Kirk has his back to the camera, lips did not touch, there was no actual kiss, NBC/Roddenberry decision to appease the (potential) backlash from the South. No kiss, no backlash. Source is William Shatner's "Star Trek Memories" book (don't have the page #, in one of the last chapters. Hopefully Fishman can look it up & get it straight). Shatner & Nichols both concur on all of this. (I don't know why Wiki contributors prefer their "facts" from discussion boards & net rumors, instead of real books & primary sources.) -Mad Max — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.74.99.206 (talk) 23:37, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

source

• http://scifiwire.com/2010/01/the-true-story-of-how-dr.php — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 19:27, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced material

I've noticed that most of the narative of this article goes completely unsourced. I assume most of it is taken from her autobiography, but even then, it should be sourced at the bottom of a section of it was lifted or paraphrased from that material. I could not access archives on Ebony's site to see images of covers in 1967, there really ought to be a reference as to where that information came from. I'm not saying the info should be removed, but I think the article needs sourcing and cleaning up. I'll continue looking for material. Akuvar (talk) 20:57, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

More stuff

• Mayo, Elizabeth. "Lt. Uhura's NASA homecoming." CNN. September 8, 2011.

WhisperToMe (talk) 00:35, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

First interracial kiss on TV?

Was the first interracial kiss on TV Nichelle Nichols and Wm Shatner on Star Trek, or was it this peck on Nancy Sinatra's cheek by Sammy Davis Jr? Youtube: The first interracial black/white kiss in U.S. TV history as claimed on this site? NCdave (talk) 06:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• This is covered in the archives, I believe, in greater detail. The Davis/Sinatra kiss aired first. And I actually think that Sidney Potier kissed (I forget, Anne Bancroft, maybe) a female presenter in greeting at the 1964 Oscars telecast. The kiss on Star Trek was probably the first "scripted" kiss between fictional Black and White characters on UNITED STATES TELEVISION. England had one much earlier. Sir Rhosis (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

"extramarital affair"

If two people are single or divorced and have an affair, is it "extramarital?" I think the phrase lends an inappropriate smarminess to the relationship between Nichols and Roddenberry. Both married at the very end of the 60s, by which time their relationship was done, I believe. Can someone with better innfo on dates correct this? Bustter (talk) 02:02, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

"Extramarital" by definition is outside of a marriage. Yes, if two people are single or divorced and have an affair, it is indeed "extramarital". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.64.0.252 (talk) 18:57, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

I think you have to be married to have an extramarital affair. If one is married and has an affair with someone who is not married, the married one is having an extramarital affair, and the other is, if one is looking for a term, fornicating. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Name change...?

Does the record show when and why she changed her name (or it was changed for her) from Grace to Nichelle? 193.63.174.211 (talk) 09:44, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I was going to ask the same thing. This is definitely the sort of thing that an encyclopedia should include. --Keeves (talk) 15:34, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Twitter Link Broken

The Twitter link is no longer held by Nichelle Nichols. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.16.154 (talk) 10:13, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

One of the first African American female characters on American television not portrayed as a servant?

Is there any source for the unlikely claim that she "was one of the first African American female characters on American television not portrayed as a servant"? Dennis Nishi's article is cited, but cannot be considered an authority for that proposition. I can think of several characters that predate Lt UhuraRoyalcourtier (talk) 05:51, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Royalcourtier (talk · contribs), the source in the lead for that sentence states, "one of the first African-American women to be cast in a role other than stereotyped black maid or nanny." Flyer22 (talk) 06:55, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Musical Career?

It's unclear to me as to whether her touring with Ellington and Hampton happened during her acting career or preceding it. I think it was certainly pre-Star Trek -- according to Whitfield's The Making of Star Trek, the original data about the show indicated that they planned to take advantage of her well-established musical talent. But there's no indication in this article as to whether it was part of a real musical career or something she was doing between acting appearances. If she really was performing "in the United States, Canada and Europe", one would that it wasn't something she was doing casually as a side career.

If the information in the "Early Life" section were in better chronological order, I'd have a better idea where this fit in. Ajericn (talk) 16:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Nichelle Nichols has returned to space since this page was created. Please update!!!

During 2015, Nichelle Nichols flew aboard the SOFIA airborne observatory on an operational mission.

Verification: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/features/sofia_flies_star_trek_icon.html (includes photograph) http://www.space.com/30805-star-trek-nichelle-nichols-sofia-observatory.html (includes video) http://www.space.com/30600-uhura-meets-sofia-star-treks-nichelle-nichols-flies-nasa-observatory-video.html (a second reference with more video) http://www.themarysue.com/nichols-in-spaaaace/ another photograph in this post-event article.

Please update the page to reflect these events. 2001:470:1F11:D90:5564:6368:2F17:E0FF (talk) 21:37, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Has more awards and honors

For any regular editor of the article, her IMDb entry has more awards and honors that could be added to the article, including her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, which is not mentioned in the article as I write this. Yes, I know it's IMDb, but the info is easy enough to verify and source elsewhere. 5Q5 (talk) 11:11, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Taken out references

@Fostrdv: Hi, I dont understand why were the references for some TV episodes she appeared in reverted? Nsae Comp (talk) 01:45, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I removed the references with a previous edit that you subsequently reverted. My reasoning being those credits are already well documented among various web sources, including IMDb, AllMovie, amongst others. Therefore it would be unnecessary place a reference next. to. every. single. film. credit. Again, IMHO. I can not speak for Foster's edits. Thanks. Thosbsamsgom (talk) 04:55, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Her Conservatorship

Why is no one mentioning that she is in a conservatorship and being abused by her son, who will most likely continue to abuse her until she dies aka like a scumbag? 2600:2B00:7A0C:C100:6CE5:7A25:4B0:264C (talk) 04:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Are there any reliable news sources documenting she's abused by anyone? The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 05:43, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Talks about her conservatorship: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/story/2021-08-15/nichelle-nichols-star-trek-uhura-dementia-conversatorship-battle

Thanks for the link. So yes, she's under conservatorship, but who abused their power over her (if not both at different times) is unclear. So unless someone has additional reliable sources that mention that, I'm leaning toward just a sentence or paragraph mentioning the current conservator and the legal dispute. The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 03:49, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

And I finally got around to doing that. The Crab Who Played With The Sea (talk) 00:40, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2022

Death July 30, 2022 Natural Causes https://www.thegamer.com/nichelle-nichols-passes-away-star-trek-uhura/ Achturas1970 (talk) 19:07, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:12, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2022 (2)

Add date of death: July 31st 2022 LouisEricSimard (talk) 19:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 Partly done: Her death on 30 July 2022 is already reported in the article. General Ization ^Talk 19:17, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Death

https://www.thegamer.com/nichelle-nichols-passes-away-star-trek-uhura/ 75.69.93.186 (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Announced on Facebook

Sunday, 31 July 2022

Friends, Fans, Colleagues, World I regret to inform you that a great light in the firmament no longer shines for us as it has for so many years. Last night, my mother, Nichelle Nichols, succumbed to natural causes and passed away. Her light however, like the ancient galaxies now being seen for the first time, will remain for us and future generations to enjoy, learn from, and draw inspiration. Hers was a life well lived and as such a model for us all. I, and the rest of our family, would appreciate your patience and forbearance as we grieve her loss until we can recover sufficiently to speak further. Her services will be for family members and the closest of her friends and we request that her and our privacy be respected. Live Long and Prosper, Kyle Johnson

For Media inquiries only, please contact 424-441-9275

https://www.facebook.com/OfficialNichelleNichols

Waiting for secondary source.

David Crayford ☎ 19:15, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

It's in The Independent

Nichelle Nichols: Pioneering ‘Star Trek’ actress dies at 89

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nichelle-nichols-star-trek-actress-dead-b2135196.html

David Crayford ☎ 19:21, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2022 (3)

The infobox says she was active until 2019. Please correct to 2020 as that's when her final film role was listed. Actually, she apparently was still attending cons and active on social media as recently as a few weeks ago, so possibly 2022 might be the correct date. 70.73.90.119 (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The release date of a work to which she was a contributor does not indicate that she was active as recently as that date. In fact, some of her performances (especially voice work) may be contained in works that will be released after her death. Per the article, she retired from convention appearances as early as 2018 after her diagnosis of dementia. Activity on social media is not what Years active refers to. We will need you to cite a reliable source clearly showing activity in the pursuits for which she is notable after 2019 to change the dates that appear in the article. General Ization ^Talk 21:11, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Please add a link to President Biden's statement on her passing in the Recognition section

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/07/31/statement-of-president-joe-biden-on-the-passing-of-nichelle-nichols/ 71.11.8.34 (talk) 03:48, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The Recognition section reflects various honors she received during her career. It is not an appropriate place to include postmortem tributes, and in fact we rarely include those in any Wikipedia article. While it is nice and appropriate that President Biden noted her passing, there is nothing factual in the White House statement that is not already contained in this article. General Ization ^Talk 03:58, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Interracial kiss?

How is it interracial when both actors are human? 208.69.184.59 (talk) 06:07, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be confusing the terms interracial and interspecies. General Ization ^Talk 06:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Ha!!! 50.111.41.243 (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

At the NASA

I have just uploaded File:Nichelle nichols 1977.jpeg, and it may be a better fit for "Work with NASA" as she's the sole one in the photo, and not just one in a crowd. It's black & white, but I don't think that's a problem. However, as the article is in the main page right right now, I thought it would be better to discuss it first. Cambalachero (talk) 14:39, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I agree this photo is a better choice. --88.108.44.36 (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

That's a great picture, but the article includes several pictures of Nichols on her own already, and the existing shows that Nichols brought the rest of Star Trek cast along and got them involved too (on that one occasion at least). I think it would be better to keep the group picture. -- 109.78.207.237 (talk) 01:11, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorority

The article included an note about an honorary membership of a sorority. I tagged this a while back as citation needed including "reason=WP:N?" because it was not clear why this was noteworthy. An editor added a reference to WP:VERIFY that Nichols has been given an honorary membership of this sorority but the article still fails to explain in the context of her entirely life and works, why this membership of a sorority is this considered noteworthy? I think it would be rare for membership of any sorority (or fraternity) to be notable in any encyclopedia biography, and it has not been adequately explained or properly referenced, so I still cannot understand why it is included in the article. It needs to be made clear why this is included or it should be removed. -- 109.78.207.237 (talk) 11:57, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

An honorary membership in any organization is generally considered a form of recognition for good works, inspiration, and/or other contributions to the cause and/or goals of the organization. Nichols's honorary membership in Alpha Kappa Alpha, the first intercollegiate historically Black sorority, is reported as one sentence in the Recognition section, and seems entirely appropriate there. General Ization ^Talk 12:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

By the way, the {{citation needed}} tag is generally not a useful way to indicate that you believe content should be removed; try the {{relevance inline}} tag instead. General Ization ^Talk 12:52, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

That's very hand wavy. It is an honor in general yes I understood that, people give honorary memberships all over the place, they are nice to have sure, but are they really noteworthy? It is in the appropriate place in the article for it to go, I wasn't asking about placement, it doesn't seem significant compared to the rest of her life and work. It still needed to at least be WP:V so the citation needed tag worked for that but I will consider using {{relevance inline}} in other cases. I do not believe that the significance of this honor has been shown properly to readers (or editors even). -- 109.78.207.237 (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority is the first intercollegiate historically African American sorority. How is that not relevant to include for Nichols? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:36, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

I think any expansion of the mention of AKA at this article to include a description of its goals, and why and how Nichols and her career were and are relevant to those goals (hence why she was honored by the organization), would be undue given that we have a very detailed article on AKA in the encyclopedia. It should be pretty obvious to the reader (if they care to follow the link) that AKA is dedicated to inspiring and empowering young, Black women to achieve great things in society, and that Nichols and her career achievements were and are emblematic of that kind of inspiration and empowerment. If it was an entire section, or even a paragraph, I might understand why it is an issue, but I really don't understand why one sentence requires this much discussion. General Ization ^Talk 20:31, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

You already know and understand the meaning of the brief sentence. I read it for the first time and thought so what. I don't think I am the only reader likely to have that reaction. I followed the wikilink and saw that it was a historical black sorority, and I still thought so what. (If the text had included the words historical black sorority or mentioned that it was from Howard University in Washington, D.C or even when the honor was given, that might have provided a bit more context, maybe I wouldn't have even needed to read the wiki link. Good writing makes following the links an optional extra to learn more not a requirement to understand why the sentence matters. As a non-American I think I know and understand a bit more than most about Greek life but this honorary membership does not seem as significant as any of the things mentioned in the Recognition section.) It seems like a minor honor, I'm sure Nichols received many awards and honors in her lifetime, and it read should be self explanatory to readers why this or any other awards deserve a mention. It apparently isn't even worth mentioning on the Alpha Kappa Alpha page (yes, it is on the long list, again that's nice, but it is not important). I know people normally reject WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as an argument but honory memberships of sororities or societies does not seem like something that is added in many wikipedia biographical articles. (That last time I remember seeing a fraternity or sorority mentioned in an biography was in the article for George W. Bush but that wasn't about an honorary membership, that was about him being president of the fraternity when he was in college.) Maybe I'm simply unfamiliar with good quality articles doing this, so I welcome examples. If it was more immediately obvious why this was important enough to include I wouldn't have needed to ask. The article being locked forces me to ask and discuss rather than take more direct action. -- 109.78.207.237 (talk) 01:11, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

It was added to the article in 2007[1] and in all that time no one thought to add a reference to verify it. For a long time the text was included right before the note about Robert Heinlein dedicating his book to Nichols. It is not at all clear why the sentence was split out on its own at some point in the last few years. -- 109.78.207.237 (talk) 01:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Someone will probably misunderstand what I'm trying to say, so I'll restate it another way: I don't think honorary memberships in general are important enough to include in a Wikipedia biographical article, and even this honorary membership specifically in this context doesn't seem important enough to mention either. -- 109.78.207.237 (talk) 01:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

At this point, I've invested all the time I intend to invest on this topic. So far, the informal consensus among the few of us participating in this discussion seems to be that the information is accurate and relevant to the subject and should remain. If you feel it needs more exposition, you are as capable as any other editor here of doing the research and proposing expanded text to describe the reason for the honor and/or precisely when she was nominated for it. By the way, I don't have any clue what the Inkpot Award is, or why she was awarded a Goldene Kamera — and I won't unless I choose to follow the links to learn more about them. Our readers are capable of following the links we supply if they need or want additional context concerning content. That is one of the many advantages of the Wiki format. General Ization ^Talk 01:49, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Publication

Please add to list of her publications: Saturna's Quest. (Saturn's Child #2) Novel (with Jim Meechan), 2002, ISBN 9780971915404 2A02:3032:410:71D8:D900:F7C9:2A0A:8216 (talk) 04:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Racial fairness

I just read that Nichelle Nichols passed away and read her bio. Truly sad and she was an incredible actress and lovely lady.

I also noticed that the term 'Black' was used several times and it was capitalized. That's totally fine and not an issue. But the issue is that whenever the term 'white' is used, it's never capitalized. And in all fairness that is inherently wrong.

I have seen this throughout Wikipedia. Do you all as Wikipedia moderators feel that it's okay and fine to say that Black people are more important than White people? It seems so. I thought you all were above that. Sigh...

Actually neither word should be capitalized unless used as part of a proper noun or the beginning of a sentence. 2601:2C6:C100:E50:393B:EA40:2946:4835 (talk) 22:14, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Black and White, when used to refer to a race or culture as opposed to a simple adjective to describe the literal color of something, should be capitalized. That many articles here do not yet consistently follow this convention is not a reason to not follow it here. General Ization ^Talk 00:17, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

This is AP standard, among other places: https://apnews.com/article/archive-race-and-ethnicity-9105661462 . No idea about Wiki standards, but the article explains why it's not racist, nor violation of conventional grammar rules. 2407:7000:89F5:2700:21DF:17A5:7727:4AA9 (talk) 02:54, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

On the other hand, the APA style guide calls for capitalizing both, and has followed this standard for decades (unlike the AP which used lowercase until two years ago): https://apastyle.apa.org/style-grammar-guidelines/bias-free-language/racial-ethnic-minorities — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:100A:B120:DB96:0:47:D6A9:9F01 (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

It's funny I came across this. I just watched the season opener of "Star Trek, Strange New Worlds". At the end credits it said, "For Nichelle." That's when I sighed and said "Oh No" outloud.

Then I googled her name to see if she had died recently. I was surprised to see it's been almost a year now. R.I.P. Nichelle. I know I will miss you.

Now for the comment about Black in Caps and White not. Well, I'm going to continue with my one man campaign to remind people, as they have apparently forgotten, about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's "I have a dream" speech. I will paraphrase from the best of my memory.

"I have a dream, that in the future my children will be judged not on the color of their skin, buy upon the content of their character."

I have loved that speech or quote ever since first hearing it when I was a child. I was struck that even though I was just a child, this obviously loaded subject had been put into words that made so much sense to even me. And also felt as if something was wrong. Wrong? What made me feel that something was wrong? Well how could so few words sum the whole thing up so well and in a way that even I could understand it being that I was child?

Fast forward five decades and the speech means more to me now that it did then. It hasn't aged in the least, and is still in my opinion a "Perfect Speech". It's simple, it's to the point, and says everything it needs to say. And last it does it with something that has been sorely missing for several years now. The truth.

So please folks. The Media in particular. Remember Dr. King's words. "Judge not by the color of one's skin, but by the content of their character. That's it. Simple. We will never be able to right the wrongs of the past. And as far as Slavery is concerned, every human on earth has ancestors that were enslaved. EVERY HUMAN ON EARTH. The idea that it's in the least bit possible to change history is one hundred percent mad. It has lead and will continue to lead to heartache and violence. Because it seeks to do the impossible.

We are humans. That's it. Separating us by skin color, religion, class, or sexuality is wrong. Always has been. Always will be.

Stick to Dr.King's words and we start off ahead of the game. Keep it simple. 2605:59C8:3035:CB10:8086:3480:1DAB:EAEA (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Top Lady, star ! 2A00:23C7:5884:C501:2D73:F68E:E3F4:2EC5 (talk) 17:30, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

that heinlein dedication in full

This book is dedicated to Ann, Anne, Barbie, Betsy, Bubbles, Carolyn, Catherine, Dian, Diane, Eleanor, Elinor, Gay, Jeanne, Joan, Judy-Lynn, Karen, Kathleen, Marilyn, Nichelle, Patricia, Pepper, Polly, Roberta, Tamea, Rebel, Ursula, Verna, Vivian, Vonda, Yumiko, and always – semper toujours! – to Ginny. R.A.H.

so not that big of a deal? keep? get rid of it? 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:4CDA:BE57:DE12:803F (talk) 09:17, 16 September 2023 (UTC)