Talk:Jamal al-Din al-Afghani/Archive 1

Accuracy

He used the name Al-Afghani because being from the Shia world wouldn't have exactly worked in Egypt. So, he said he was from Afghanistan while really from Iran. Trying to figure out if it's the same town name but in Iran. gren グレン 05:41, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Who is Right

I have found conflicting info who is right. http://www.afghanan.net/biographies/afghani.htm
http://afghanland.com/history/jamaluddin.html

His grandfather Sayyed Ali had stayed in Hamedan of Iran for a while when he went to perform the pilgrimage of Hajj. When he returned back to Asadabad (alternative Pashto name: Shergar), situated in Kunar Province of Afghanistan, he got famous by the title of Hamadani. His son (Jamaladdin Afghani's father), Sayyed Safdar, then moved from Asadabad to Kabul with his family. Due to the political relations imposed on him by the government, he left Kabul to As'adabad in Hamedan Province in Iran. His trip from Kabul to Hamedan of Iran occurred in 1844 when Jamaluddin Afghani was 7 years old. So he was born in Afghanistan. I have added the sources in the main page of the article. Ariana310 18:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

New added text removed

I removed the following text added by User:Aryob:

The Moslem worlds were living under colonial suppression, internal discord and poverty, and they, badly were, in need of a leader such as Jamaluddin. No one can deny reading the history of that period, that Afghani was one of the most outstanding figures and redeemers of the East. With all the qualification that he possessed, he was a great political and unique intellectual of his time. The great French philosopher Renan says about Afghani: (Few people have produced on me a more vivid impression; it is a large measure the conversation that I had with him that decided me to chose as a subject for my lecture at the Sorbonne, the relations between the “scientific spirit and Islam……” The liberty of his thought, his noble and loyal character, made me believe, while I was talking with him, that I had before me, restored to life, one of my old acquaintances----Wicenna, Arerroes, or another of those great infidels, who represented to five centuries the tradition of the human mind.”

This statement which is made by a great philosopher of Europe is enough to understand the high qualification of this Afghan genius, who was considered also by late Pandit Nehru as a great religious reformist, by doctor Iqbal and Namek Kamal as a religious revolutionary and defenders of Pan-Islamism, by Professor Edward G. Brown the author of “Persian revolution” as a man who helped to animate the fight of Moslem resistance against the expansion and Domination of European colonialism.

Some people likens the great personalities of history to precious stones like rubies, amber, turquoise, emerald having special glow, shines, color and beauty, but, Jamal ud-Din was like a diamond shining and glowing from every angle. HE was a reformist, religious leader, philosopher, writer, journalist and above all a politician and emancipator of the East and Moslem world. In fact what made Jamaluddin a great hero of the east and an enemy of colonialism is indeed his political activism, who’s effects and influence spread beyond the borders of his own country Afghanistan, and touched the destiny of people from Bengal to the Atlantic shores of Africa.

Considering what Afghani had accomplished as a one man, with empty hands and no support from any quarter against the formidable powers of Europe, facing many odds and intrigues of the western countries and their agents and spies, is indeed a great achievement. Contrary to the views of some contemporary writers such as the Author of ‘Afghani’ and Abdoh’ and many others like him Jamaluddin was the most dedicated and unselfish politician and the leader of the East- that while the whole Asia and the Moslem world were in a deep sleep of ignorance during the 19 th century he was fighting with a power of his pen and the strength of his spirit to emancipate his people from the European yoke. He continued his fight by every means, in every city and country, even in the heart of colonial centers such as London, Paris, Berlin, and Petersburg until he died. Although he was unable to see the fruits of his labor in his life time, but certainly all the seeds which he sowed, bore fruits soon after his death. His home land Afghanistan only 22 years after his death received independence and what he wanted form his own pupil Amir Mohammad Azam Khan was accomplished by another student of his, Mahmud Tarzi through his son-in-law Amir Amanullah during his reign.

In Egypt another devoted desciple Sad Zaglole Became the father of modern Egypt, in Turkey, Namek Kamal and his follower Ataturk did what Jamal-ad- Din wanted to be done by Turks. In India his efforts to unite Hindu and Moslems to fight the British was realized, and all his political and social principles were followed by Moslem and Hindu leaders such as Abdul Kalam Azad and Alama Iqbal as well as Gandhi and Pandit Nehru.

He wanted Moslem unity through “Um-ul-Qura” now this is also realized and it’s headquarter has been established in Saudi Arabia, He was in favour of Arab unity soon after the First World War the Arab League came to function on the bank of the Nile.

Jamaluddin was considered ‘new traditionalist’ as well as ‘Islamic reformist; because of Afghani’s teaching today most of the Moslem reject rigid traditionalist as well as pure westernism, as once Sir Sayed Ahmad founder of Aligarh University wanted the Moslems to follow. The middle of the road policy of Jamaluddin is a proper way for the Moslems to be the followed even at present time.

As I stated above, it was mainly political activities of Jamaluddin which has attracted International and world wide attention because during the 19 th century he was the greatest champion of liberty and self-determination for oppressed people of the East and a great fighter against European imperialism. To achieve this noble aim, he was following five main political principals, some times using each principal separately, and more often together. But in application of these principles in order to help his people, he followed the main British political theory which one of their great leaders once stated:

“The British never had a permanent friend but she had always a permanent interest”.

The political Principals followed by Afghani are as follows:

He wanted to carry his views from the top, in order to achieve internal reforms as well as to resist foreign domination. Though this principal, he wanted to established a model country in order to be followed by other Asian and Moslem countries. He wanted to use France and Germany as a third power to support the Asian struggle against the British as well as Tsarist Russia. In case of failure of the above theory, he wanted to acquire the British to support the eastern nations in order to push out of Asia, the Tsarist imperialist. To get the Tsarist to help the Asians against the British.

Jamaluddin wanted to use the 3 rd and fourth theories because he knew that Asia and Moslem countries are not able to match the military, technical and economic power of the West and the only way to fight the British or Tsarist Russia is to reply on the Theory of ‘Balance of Power;

The most important theory upon which Afghani was relying was the theory of ‘Pan-Islamism’, or Moslem Unity “, he always wanted to use this weapon, against colonial domination for liberation of Moslems in Asia and Africa. How Afghani applied these theories and how was the results here we will examine in the following pages:

The reasons:

• the text seems to be part of an article
• the text must be rewritten in encyclopedic style
• it must be wikified i.e. citing sources, personal POVs of the author must be removed, etc. Ariana310 19:54, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Clarification Comment

Hey, I am not an expert on this subject so I did not actually edit this article, but I just want to point out that according to everything I have ever heard and read, Jamal-ud-din al-Afghani was a PERSIAN SHIA and was most likely born in Asadabad Persia(modern-day Iran) not in Afghanistan. He called himself al-Afghani and said he was an Afghan to his Sunni co-religionists because he wanted to hide the fact that he was a Shia. This seems natural given the prejudice that many Sunnis have towards Shias.

While it is possible that he was born in Asadabad Afghanistan and latter moved back to Persia when he was very young, it is also likely that he was born in Iran. Where he was born is really not that important, but what is fairly clear is that he was in fact a Persian Shia and not an Afghan.

He may have himself made up the story about being born in Asadabad Afghanistan in order to maintain his story that he was an Afghan in order to hide the fact that he was a Shia.

One last thing, the first reference on this article, the link to the Encylopedia Britannica clearly states that he was born in Asadabad Persia and that he called himself al-Afgani in order conceal the fact that he was a Persian Shia.

This seems logical. He may have felt that his Sunni co-religioinists would have been prejudiced towards him and reject his ideas, if they knew that he was in fact a Shia and not a Sunni like themselves. Umaru Ahmad 03:01, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This is the disputed point over Jamaluddin Afghani.

• Both points have been mentioned in the article: his birth in Afghanistan and his birth in Iran
• For the point that he was born in Kunar of Afghanistan, I have added 3 reliable and non-Afghan sources.
• It is completely irrational to say that he chose the title of al-Afghani or he lied that he was born in Afghanistan, because of his Shi'a status among other Sunni people. If you have read this point in any of his works and letters, please provide it. As soon as you provide his own statement which would justify this point, I would completely change the article. This fact is a POV and estimation of others regarding al-Afghani, which cannot have a position in wikipedia. Of course, you can add this point in the article as reporting from the third person who has written or said this case. You are free to do it.Ariana310 09:37, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Umaru Ahmad is correct. Sayed Jamal ud-Din "al-Afghani" was not an Afghan, but an Iranian. He was born in Asadabad in Iran, and he spent his childhood there. Overwhelming documentation and contemporary sources prove his Iranian origin. 90% of his political activism was concentrated on Iran. I have added two scholary sources, one from Encyclopaedia Iranica and the other from Prof. Keddie (one of the leading authorities on Jamal ud-Din al-Afghani's life and biography) to the article. I'll try to add direct references from the collection of Afshari and Mahdavi (two other imprtant scholars and experts on al-Afghani) to article. Unfortunately, I do not have direct access to the original Persian collection of his letters. As for the article, please notice that the Encyclopaedia Iranica is an authoritative scholarly work, and that its message has to be put above other sources (except for primary sources and/or written literature by notable scholars). However, in this case, it does not matter, since the Iranica article was written by Prof. Keddie, the most important Western scholar on al-Afghani's life, and is directly based on primary sources (al-Afghani's letters). Also Britannica says that he was Iranian. --82.83.129.121 22:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Iranian or Afghani?

There are some sources saying he was born in asadabad of Hamedan in Iran and also some sources are saying he was born in asadabad of Kunar in Afghanistan. But the important thing is his thoughts. He believed in unity of Muslims(Iranian or Afghani), so why should we Muslims fight on him and for our nationality?!! Iranway (talk) 18:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Al-Afghani was not born in Iran, neither was he Iranian or Shia. Al-Afghani was born in Asadabad, Afghanistan, this is explained in every school book in Afghanistan and Pakistan. If Al-Afghan was born in Iran then how on earth is it possible for Iran to deport him from his own country? If Al-Afghani committed crimes then Iran would have arrested and charged him but not deport him. The only country that did not deport him was Afghanistan because he was natural born citizen of Afghanistan.--ZmaGhurnStaKona 06:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I dont want to persist that he was Iranian. Afghani or Iranian... there is no difference. like two brothers! but your claim is wrong. you said: <<If Al-Afghan was born in Iran then how on earth is it possible for Iran to deport him from his own country? If Al-Afghani committed crimes then Iran would have arrested and charged him but not deport him.>> Imam Khomeini (the leader of iran's revolution) was Iranian(there is no doubt, "khomein" is the name of a place in Iran) but the same government deported him first to Iraq and then to Turkey and France. Anyway, I (as an Iranian) accept and respect the rich culture and history of my brother country Afghanistan. Iranway (talk) 17:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Afghan school books may claim that he was Afghan, but Western scholars all agree that he was Iranian. The evidence is overwhelming, most of all his own writings. The name "al-Afghani" cannot be considered a proof, because before he took that name, he was also known as "al-Istanbuli". His Shia religion is well known, and not even Afghan scholars deny that. Most of his political activity was in Iran and most of his writings targetted the Iranian Shah Nasir ud-Din Shah, although the Ottoman Sultan was way more powerful and was a bigger threat to al-Afghani's political movement. in addition, al-Afghani was for many years allied to the leaders and founders of the Babi and Bahai movements, because both of these groups had the same aims: removing the Iranian monarchy and orthodox Shiite clergy. So, no matter how you look at it, it is clear that he was Iranian by birth. The discovery of his own hand writings erased the last doubts about his nationality. Sayed Jamal ud-Din Asadabadi, a.k.a. "al-Istanbuli", a.k.a. "al-Afghani", was born in Asadabad near Hamadan in Iran.

I said why would Iran deport him if he was born in Iran? Do you know why people are deported from a country? His own hand writings do not mean anything, he could have wrote false information to avoid deportation from Iran. It shows how weak your argument is. You are just wishing that he was Iranian and Shia, but he was not. Iran does not deport their own citizens or Shias. They deport people from Afghanistan, especially if they are Sunni. Western scholars? You are going by what a couple of people in the west thought about Afghani and rejecting the truth from the people of the area where he was born at, not very smart.--ZmaGhurnStaKona 15:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It's not that important, but still your argument is false. I told Iranian government at that time was opposite to islamic scholars, and it used to deport even Iranian Islamic leaders. Your are saying I'm wishing he was Iranian! Really it isn't that much important for me, but the truth is. What I say is not that he was Iranian 100%, but I say when there are some documents supporting this idea, we cant be careless about them. what is right is that "We are not certain about the place of his born", So, saying Jamal al-Din al-Afghani is confusing! Both ideas are supporting he was from "Asadabad", either Iran or Afghanistan. so its better to rely on truth, and avoid confusion. Iranway (talk) 17:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I do not profess to be a scholar on the early life of al-Afghani, but every time I have heard him discussed or read of his upbringing, it is always stressed that he was in fact a Persian Shi'ite by birth and later adopted the al-Afghani title so as to more broadly appeal to all Muslims. It is indeed a fair point that his origin is not of the utmost importance, but I feel this is a crucial point that must be reflected in some form in the article itself. If we are going to operate on the assumption that Afghan textbooks (or whatever source) are correct and list his place of birth as Afghanistan, then there must at least be some mention of the scholarly dispute on the subject.Meteor45 (talk) 17:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

To user:Mussav >

Why did you move the page to "Jamaluddin al-Afghani" without reading whats going on in discussion page?

1-there are some proofs that he is Iranian.

2-there are some proofs that he is Afghan.

3-Both the proofs agreed that he is from "Asadabad".

4-Calling him "afghani" is supporting only one of the present ideas about his nationality, where there are some strong documents supporting he was Iranian.

You have written "That what he was known in Egypt, Middle East, Ottoman Empire and North Africa in General." even if we dont consider what I said now, and even if what you are saying about middle east is correct, still it isnt a good reason! Middle east countries in their own languages can have his name as afghani(however it is unjust and unfair!) but what they use in US and western countries is deciding point for his name in English Wikipedia.Iranway (talk) 20:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Unjust and unfair? That's what he was known there, no one know Jamal Al-Deen Asadabad, his name and legacy in Egypt, Middle East and the Ottoman Empire is Jamal Al-Deen Al-Afghani. If you don't have any proof of that he was called Jamal Al-Deen Asadabad (his name not his born place), this page will be removed to Jamal Al-Deen Al-Afghani again. Mussav (talk) 20:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no consensus about the place of his birth. He was born either in Asadabad of Iran or Asadabad of Afghanistan. So the title of this article shouldn't be Jamal al-Din al-Afghani but Jamal al-Din Asadabadi.Hermion (talk) 16:19, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

and i accept herimon's word and i think the article must have neutral point of view .so i think Jamal al-Din Asadabadi would be fair name.--Mardetanha ^talk 20:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Being born in Iran or Afghanistan is irrelevant to the title of this page. The title of this page should follow the most common name in English books and academic articles. he is mostly known as "Jamal-al-din al-Afghani" in English books and academic articles. Also, almost all reputable encyclopedias call him "Jamal-al-din al-Afghani" (For example, see Iranica). Alefbe (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

you are saying he is mostly known as Jamal-al-din al-Afghani, besides it is correct or wrong:

1- The word "microbe" is the most common world for "microorganism". ( microbe in google 2million results & microorganism in google 1million result )

2- But today mostly scientific resources, are trying to use "microorganism" instead of "microbe". (microbe in googlescholars 156000 results & microorganism in googlescholars 254000 results) (Also see microbe & microorganism in wikipedia)

3- why is it microorganism? because people mostly use microbe? no! because a scientific resource like an encycopedia, should use a scientific and correct word to describe something. Not what most of people use. They might use microbe side by side to avoid confusion, but the title(even in wiki) is the scientific and correct word. (In most of the today's textbooks, they use microorganism as the title of chapter) (microorganism in britannica & microbe in britannica The title is "microorganism, or microbe", we can also use "Jamal a-Din Asadabadi or al-afghani")

Iranway (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Sufi scholar

An article in the New Dawn Magazine, "The Masons and the Moors", mentions him as a Sufi scholar. This is something that should be mentioned in the article if we can produce some better sourcing for the information. The article associates him with the Khwajagan and professes that he was the teacher of Madame Blavatsky. Also according to that article it is rumoured that the parents of Noble Drew Ali, the founder of the Moorish Science Temple of America were students of al-Afghani, so a strong link may exist between him and that organization as well as the Moorish Orthodox Church of America. __meco (talk) 13:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Assadabadi or al-Afghani?

fight over al-Afghani. How about we keep drop Assadabadi but put in the lead something like, "even though he is known throughout the Muslim world as al-Afghani, scholars agree Jamal al-Din was an Iranian Shia born in Asadabad"? --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is he is known all over the Muslim and non-Muslim world as al-Afghani. It may be a misnomer but this is an encyclopedia. Until the world starts calling him Al-Assadabadi, wikipedia can't. --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

But calling his name as "al-afghani", has some hidden message, that he is "Afghan"! But it has not been proven yet, and as an encyclopedia, wikipedia will provide false information! Iranway (talk) 20:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

That's why we should put something in the lead about, "even though he is known throughout the Muslim world as al-Afghani, scholars agree Jamal al-Din was an Iranian Shia born in Asadabad." This is an English language page and many if not most english speakers do not necessarily at all read "al-Afghani" in a name as meaning the person is an Afghan, or that al-Misri means you are Egyptian, etc. There's no hidden message in English. --BoogaLouie (talk) 21:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

"al-misri" for "Egyptian" is different, but any English language speaker will understand "Afghani" is related to "Afghanistan" and Afghan. It's obvious! Iranway (talk) 10:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

May I come in and say what I know on the subject matter? I am Iranian and from my grandparents I had always heard the name "Asadabadi" and not even once "Al-Afghani". To say that "he is known throughout the Muslim world as Al-Afghani" is not conform what I know for certain (unless of course one intends to imply that Iran were not part of the Muslim world). For completeness, my great-great grandparents (both maternal and paternal) had been contemporaries of "Asadabadi" and what my grandparents told me about "Asadabadi" consisted mainly of things that they had heard directly from their parents. In particular, since my paternal grandmother's date of birth approximately coincides with the date on which "Asadabadi" has died, what she had heard from her father could not have been about a historical person about whom facts might have been difficult to come by. As a matter of fact, if I had the opportunity for, I would be able to assemble a non-negligible amount of original historical documents in which one solely encounters the name "Asadabadi" and not "Al-Afghani". Kind regards, --BF 22:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, I stand corrected. At least one part of the Muslim world does not know him as al-Afghani. And if what you say is true it would not be appropriate to call him Al-Afghani on the Persian language wikipedia.

So I'll correct my statement. At least in the English speaking-world he is known as al-Afghani. I've gone to the trouble of checking four dictionaries, or dictionary-type books on Islam:

Historical Dictionary of Islam (Ludwig W. Adamec);

The New Encyclopedia of Islam (Cyril Glasse);

Oxford Dictionary of Islam (John L. Esposito) and

Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World (Macmillan Reference).

All of them have an entry titled Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, not Jamal al-Din Asadabadi or Jamal al-Din al-Afghani Asadabadi.

This is an english language wikipedia, we should title the article Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear BoogaLouie, thank you for your message. I had/have no reason to tell untruths, not here, not anywhere, in particular by the fact that falsifying historical facts is in my opinion a crime. You could find a great deal about Jamal al-Din Asadabadi in the Babi and Bahai literature; as it happens, Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi was for some time very closely associated with the Azali Babis in the Ottoman Empire (in Istanbul, Cyprus, etc.); three Azali Babis who were very closely associated with him, were extradited to Iran and the three were killed in the most gruesome way in Tabriz --- Iran constantly demanded extradition of Jamal al-Din Asadabadi to Iran, however Sultan Abdul-Hamid was not prepared to oblige; he however relented and at first put the last-mentioned three persons in jail in Trabzon, and later extradited them to Iran. One of these people was Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi, who was son-in-law of Sobh-e Azal. You may know that Mirza Agha Khan Kermani, aka Mirza Reza Kermani, who assassinated Nasser al-Din Shah, did this at the instigation of Jamal al-Din Asadabadi. You see already why Jamal al-Din Asadabadi had to be careful and not divulge his true Iranian origin. In a way, Jamal al-Din Asadabadi was at some stage the most wanted man in Iran. --BF 19:31, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Even if he was born in modern Afghanistan that does not mean that he was a dirty backward and nomading Pashtun dog and barbarian. That his ancestor´s name was Termizi showes that he was at least of Tajik origine if not of Iranian-Persian origine. Even modern historian from Afghanistan considere him as a Tajik and not as a Pashtun. It is thought that he became a sunni muslim.

Ps:Kunar province is still inhabitet by urban Tajiks while Pashtuns are nomads there.--88.68.192.188 (talk) 09:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

100% AFGHAN

FOR ONCE AND FOR ALL AL-Afghani was afghan from the start and afghan when he died there was never a iranian in the middle, so for those iranians who say hes from hamdam Let me ask u a question? If sayed jamaluddin afghani is from IRAN than how would you explain that he Speaks PASHTO he wrote history of afghanistan in pashto a true afghan language??????????? 71.139.6.230 (talk) 06:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Your argument:

1- Professor Majidzadeh was born in Iran and is Iranian.

2- He has written a book about history of iran in English.

3- So, he is from U.S. or U.k.!!!!!!!!!

Iranway (talk) 10:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

4- Hmm. Did he speak Pashto? Did he write a book in Pashto? Can you give us a source? Hermion (talk) 12:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Source???? you say did you read where he was born? In Kunar, Afghanistan where it is the heart of the pashtuns. The question is how does he not know pashto? thats should be ur question. Give it a break you persians claim everyone as your own with bogus evidence. He is known all over the world as AFGHANI and u dare call him persian loooool PLEAZ save ur selves some fresh air!!! 71.139.6.230 (talk) 05:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)Pashtun786

"It is thought Al-Afghani claimed to be an Afghan in order to present himself as a Sunni Muslim - the sect adhered to by most Muslims and most Muslim rulers -and to escape oppression by the Iranian government",[6] or to be associated with the larger branch of Islam so "reach a wider audience" " READ THE ABOVE COMPLETE CONTRADICTION If he was Shia why would he say hes sunni and say he excaped oppression by the iranian government. looooooool COMPLETE STUPID who ever wrote this article most likely was persian.71.139.6.230 (talk) 05:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)Pashtun786

This is your first and last warning. Do not attack to other editors unless you will be banned from wikipedia. Hermion (talk) 09:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Please be polite. My brother, "asadabadi" or "afghani" is not as important as our brotherhood, so don't start an Iranian-Pashto fight. You should know more about the history of Persia, to be able to decide. You don't know how was the Iranian government at that time. You think only because the government was shia, and asadabadi was also shia, so they had to be friends! His aim was to unify Islamic world. As a shia Muslim, at that time it was difficult to affect the whole Muslim world.

At that time Qajar dynasty was there in Iran. They were not true shias, they were just carrying the title! Most of the Shia scholars from Qom (حوزهٔ علمیهٔ قم) were against the government. Let me give you an example, before Iranian revolution, MohammadReza shah was the king of Iran, and he was shia. But why was he against khomeini(another shia), why did he exile khomeini, first to Iraq, then to Turkey, and after that to France? wasn't he shia? The same thing was also there at that time. Islamic scholars were always(at the time of Qajar and Pahlavi) against the unlimited powers of the kings. They wanted to build up the real kingdom of people and not kings, they wanted to bring the true democracy, but it was not what kings wanted. So, they were always against them. (It was only an overview from my low knowledge without any research, but if you research, you will be sure why Iranian government was against Islamic scholars). Iranway (talk) 06:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

See this part of article:

<<Although al-Afghani quarrelled with most of his patrons, it is said he "reserved his strongest hatred for the shah" whom he accused of weakening Islam by granting conscessions to Europeans and squandering the money earned thereby. His agitation against the Shah is thought to have been one of the "fountainheads" of the successful 1891 protest against the granting a tobacco monopoly to a British company, and the later 1905 Constitutional Revolution.>> Iranway (talk) 06:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Title of this page

For the title of this page, it doesn't matter if he was born in Iran or Afghanistan. The name that he used was "Afghani" and he is mostly known as "Jamal-al-din al-Afghani" in English Academic texts (866 search results, compared to 64 for Asadabadi) and English books (672, compared to 58 for Asadabadi). Almost all reputable encyclopedias call him "Jamal-al-din al-Afghani" (For example, see Iranica and Britannica). Alefbe (talk) 15:18, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

(pasted from above) I've checked four dictionaries, or dictionary-type books on Islam:

Historical Dictionary of Islam (Ludwig W. Adamec);

The New Encyclopedia of Islam (Cyril Glasse);

Oxford Dictionary of Islam (John L. Esposito) and

Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim World (Macmillan Reference).

Four out of four have an entry titled Jamal al-Din al-Afghani, not Jamal al-Din Asadabadi or Jamal al-Din al-Afghani Asadabadi. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:06, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

you are saying he is mostly known as Jamal-al-din al-Afghani, besides it is correct or wrong:

1- The word "microbe" is the most common world for "microorganism".

2- But today mostly scientific resources, are trying to use "microorganism" instead of "microbe". (See microbe & microorganism in wikipedia)

3- why is it microorganism? because people mostly use microbe? no! because a scientific resource like an encycopedia, should use a scientific and correct word to describe something. Not what most of people use. They might use microbe side by side to avoid confusion, but the title(even in wiki) is the scientific and correct word. (In most of the today's textbooks, they use microorganism as the title of chapter)

Iranway (talk) 17:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

When scholars start a campaign to change the name to Jamal al-Din Asadabadi we should follow suit (if that's wikipedia policy). But as exemplified by the four dictionaries quoted, they have not ... and we shouldn't either. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:42, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Who are scholars? Why should we follow the way they think? Can't we think? Iranway (talk) 21:04, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

The scholars who wrote the encyclopedias I quoted. Didn't you just say we should follow "scientific resources"? Like I keep saying Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Articles have to follow guidelines. "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" Wikipedia:Verifiability --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:15, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Please don't mix up the things! Of course we need sources, otherwise I can go and add in Einstein article that "he was from China"!! There is no doubt that we should always give the source, but what I said was that there is no need that we always use the secondary sources provided by scholars, but we can also use the Primary sources (of course reliable and with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy).Iranway (talk) 12:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I am surprised that this discussion is still going on. Please consult the following sites:

OK, what are you suprised about? Iranians inside and outside Iran prefer Asadabadi but in the arab world and most of the outside world he's still called al-afghani. --BoogaLouie (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• An introduction to the Collected Works of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi..

the title of this page is `Sayyid Jamal al-Din "al-Afghani" Asadabadi, Collected Works al-A`mal al-Kamilah`, not Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi.--BoogaLouie (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• Iran Digital Library. This site gives the full text of the collected letters of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi (collection has been done by Abol-Hassan Jamali Asadabadi and the book has a foreword by one of Iran's all-time greatest scholars, Mohammad Mohit Tabatabai)

same--BoogaLouie (talk) 17:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• Iran Chamber Society, by Iraj Bashiri
• Encyclopaedia Iranica, by Nikki R. Keddie.
  Kind regards, --BF 17:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear BoogaLouie, I am very sorry to note that you see things in nationalistic terms. Whilst it is true that I am Iranian, what I wrote was not prompted by the misguided notion that I should defend the indefensible because of my nationality; as I wrote earlier, I deeply believe that manipulating historical facts is a crime. I told you what I know to be the truth, and if the truth would have been that Asadabadi was Al-Afghani, I would not have hesitated to say so. I provided you with references and I told you about what I had heard from my own grandparents. My grand parents had no reason to lie to me. To give you some indication, my maternal grandfather told me about historical events concerning the times of Amir Kabir (Amir Kabir died --- better, killed --- in 1852) as he had heard them from his father. Not surprisingly, that which I heard from my grandfather shows no deviation from the accepted history regarding the times of Amir Kabir. Note that Amir Kabir died almost half a century before Asadabadi's death.

Lastly, may I request you to be kind enough and not write into my texts? The way you responded to my comments affected the integrity of my texts — as a result, one will have difficulty to decide what text is mine and what text is yours, and I do not wish to take responsibility for the statements that are not mine. Please just write your comments outside my comments. As a matter of fact, it is morally objectionable to bring changes into texts belonging to others. Since it proved impossible to restore my original text (due to your insertions and the consequent changes in the lay-out of my original text), for the record I reproduce my original message below. I emphasise, no one is entitled to bring changes into texts due to others, no matter how slight these changes might be. --BF 18:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I am surprised that this discussion is still going on. Please consult the following sites:
— [1]. An introduction to the Collected Works of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi.
— Iran Digital Library. This site gives the full text of the collected letters of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi (collection has been done by Abol-Hassan Jamali Asadabadi and the book has a foreword by one of Iran's all-time greatest scholars, Mohammad Mohit Tabatabai)
— Iran Chamber Society, by Iraj Bashiri
— Encyclopaedia Iranica, by Nikki R. Keddie.
Kind regards, --BF 17:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear BoogaLouie, one remark concerning the title of the book to which you apparently have objected. You seem to distrust people to such a degree that you make up things that have no external existence. As can be testified by any person who knows the rudiments of precise writing, since I had not put my words inside quotation marks, I could not have been quoting or giving the title of the book. Please re-read my text and you will notice that I was just telling that the book concerned collected letters of Asadabadi; since I was talking about Asadabadi, it would have been strange to use the word "Al-Afghani", and since I had not put my words inside quotation marks (and in contrast to what you do, I had not typed my words in Italics), no one would have considered that I were giving the title of the work. Please note that since I am not a simpleton, I would have done things differently if I had intended to mislead. Incidentally, I always use the transliteration Sayyad and not Sayyid, since I transliterate from Farsi (not Arabic) and in Farsi Sayyid, in contrast to Sayyad, makes no sense. --BF 18:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Principle/Precedent for renaming to "al-Afghani"

First, in a very prominent book, Arabic Thought in the Liberal Age, Albert Hourani discusses his mysterious origin but calls him al-Afghani throughout his work. Additionally, even if it wasn't his original name, of which we have no knowledge, his prominence was achieved under the name al-Afghani. On wikipedia, Mark Twain's article is called that, not Samuel Clemens; George Sand as such even though the author was female; and Baruch Spinoza as that name as opposed the name he would have been called in his native Portugal, Bento de Espinosa. It really should be changed to al-Afghani. —Preceding unsigned comment added by No1cubfan (talk • contribs) 06:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Just one quick note. I dissent from the assertion "of which we have no knowledge". As I have mentioned in two places on this page, I do have knowledge through my grand-grandparents and that knowledge contradicts the above-quoted statement. I do not wish to enter into a discussion as to the name by which Asadabadi should be known on Wikipedia (the recent changes were not initiated by me, although it was I who included the name Asadabadi as the second name some one or two years ago), however I decline to accept that we did not know the real name of Asadabadi. Generally, I believe that since Wikipedia is written by the general public, it should contain what the general public does know, and not what some individuals, no matter how learned, may perceive to know. Let us break new grounds in writing Wikipedia and avoid becoming merely conveyors of what is already available elsewhere. At one or two occasions I have had extensive discussions here on Wikipedia concerning transliterations of certain Farsi words. In all cases it became clear to me that those individuals who pushed hardest for change were simply enforcing the transliterations as adopted by, for instance, OED and knew least about Farsi and Iran's folklores. There is simply no a priori reason why we should perpetuate the errors by others just for the sake of uniformity. Not only that, but it is morally objectionable that one should write against one's best knowledge. Why should I be writing Azari as Azeri while knowing that the latter word is both meaningless in Farsi and lacks even a single precedence in any of Iran's folklores known to me — in contrast, I can trace the history of the word Azari to some 3000 years in the past. To summarise, I rather trust my certain knowledge on specific issues than follow what others may have perceived as correct at some point in history. In the case of Asadabadi, the truth is that I cannot remember he ever being called by any name other than Asadabadi by any persons I knew, notably my grandparents. To say that I did not know his real name, would be against my best knowledge and should not be expected from me. --BF 15:08, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

But these kind of "inaccurate namings" in wikipedia, mostly are different. "Al-afghani" gives some wrong information to the user, unlike most of other inaccurate namings. It says he was "afghan" where as this is wrong. Wikipedia shouldn't provide wrong information to the users, where as there are hundreds of sources which are saying he was not afghan. 61.8.140.20 (talk) 19:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

BF- How can we do something based on what your grandparents said? This is wholly unacceptable! Your viewpoint is one of Iranian background who are clearly of the biased opinion that he was a shi'a who defected, something I'm sure your grandparents cling to. Again, the man is known as al-Afghani in scholarship. To the above poster, it does not imply that he is from Afghanistan! Does someone with the last name "French" or "English" mean that he or she is from France or England? No.--kubfann (talk) 21:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear kubfann, you will have to trust me, for otherwise whatever I say must be suspect, irrespective of whether these were related to me by my grandparents or some other individuals. Your surmise (you say you are "sure") with regard to the religious affiliation of my grandparents is also incorrect. For some reason I grew up in an environment where many of the names in Iran's history were household names; I only realised this when I started to read history books by myself. My maternal grandfather was reading history books if he was not talking about history, or when he was not working or sleeping or eating; he was just phenomenal, recalling all the names of people, places and treaties as well as dates. But aside from all things, you cannot deny the fundamental significance of the oral history to what we know today as history. If you consider the total historical records of all nations available today, they almost entirely consist of oral history, recorded at some wide intervals apart by some individuals called "historians"; the practice of having professional historians affiliated to some centres of learning is a very recent phenomenon in the history of humankind. On the question at issue, I have personally no problem if Asadabadi were Al-Afghani; I derive no sense of pride (and this applied also to my parents and grandparents) by forcefully making out all the significant historical figures as being Iranians. This particularly applies when such figures may conceivably be from Afghanistan, since amid all the historical injustices that have been done to this nation, they are in no need of my personal injustice towards them on top of all the other. What I wrote above simply amounts to what I know for certain. I can only say that I am very sorry that Asadabadi happens not to be from Afghanistan. Kind regards, --BF 03:18, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Irainian influence

Al-afghani in all none-Iranian documents, especially almost all alnguages of Wikipedia, is an Afghan, even his images in English Wikipedia is titled as al-afghani, then why English Wikipedia shoul call him Asadabadi? Isn't it an Iranian influence? Please do not forget your impartiality. If they change it a million times, I will revise a zillion times.84.13.162.105 (talk) 09:53, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Your observation only shows an inconsistency in the presentation. I am one of the people who without the slightest reservation believes that Asadabadi was an Iranian. Although an Iranian myself, this belief is not forced on me by my nationality; it is informed by sheer amount of historical facts regarding Asadabadi. The only reason that I have not undertaken to make the entry consistent, is by the realisation that any change of the kind would most likely lead to an uproar and I have simply not the time and the energy to enter into discussion with all those who do not share my conviction regarding Asadabadi. If a group of dedicated people would pledge here to support the changes required for making the entry consistent, I am prepared to initiate the work; otherwise, I am not going to let myself into a lion's den. Incidentally, could you (that is User 84.13.162.105), who remind me of User:Charsada (by "If they change it a million times, I will revise a zillion times" you betray yourself as an unreasonable person: whereas million is definite, zillion is indefinite so that by your statement you are declaring that you will change the article irrespective of whether anyone changes it or not), be so kind as to cite some of those "all none-Iranian [sic] documents"? Experience shows that these "none-Iranian documents" are almost always, if not always, figments of imagination. --BF 13:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Asadabadi was an Iranian. Not the issue. Issue is the standardized name, which is al-Afghani. --BoogaLouie (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Freemanson

The German Wiki does has a handwritten document of Al-Afghani, where he ask to become a membership of the Freemansons. Never saw that before, so what do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.204.35 (talk) 18:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted an IP edit which had deleted useful information. The same IP had also edited the German version of the article and was reverted there by an admin as well. Tājik (talk) 18:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have once again reverted the disadvantageous edits of the IP who had removed sources or falsified the text. Tājik (talk) 12:52, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

It really baffles me how some people can change sourced texts or falsify it. For example if no one caught the ip, people would think the false information he put is what Britannica has stated. There needs to be better protection against such vandalism so normal users do not have to waste their time. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 03:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I have once again restored the correct version. This version is sourced, and the attached sources can be examined online. Tājik (talk) 10:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

academic sources

Inuit18, come you with your academic sources and i will come with my academic sources. we will see who is right. so, come with your academic sources please...... Abasin-اباسین 02:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Instead of waiting for him, gather all your sources and post them here. (Ketabtoon (talk) 04:42, 29 January 2010 (UTC))

currently three academic sources which is accepted by all Orientalists is used in this article. Encyclopedia of Islam, Encyclopedia of Iranica and Britannica.--Inuit18 (talk) 07:32, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Inuit18, you are right about this Encyclopendias, but the qeustion is; who are this people who has edited this Encyclopedias, what is their goal by posting wrong information on this Encyclopedias, are they Persians like you..? if yes, than it is clear but if they aren't Persians than is the qeustion from where have they this information and second, have they any political ambitions or did they first read Encyclopedias like this and have wrong information and than write this Encyclopedias and also the qeustion is, are behind this Encyclopedias the same people..? who use have linked this Encyclopedias to each others....?

• Read it carefully, it is very important! specially for admins!

Here this are my academic sources. is it enough or do you want more...?

1. www.Afghan-Network.net [2] 2. www.studying-islam.org [3] 3. www.scribd.com [4] 4. www.afghanan.net [5] 5. www.laghman.net [6] 6. malaysiana1.blogspot.com [7] 7. krex.k-state.edu [8] 8. lsinsight.org [9] 9. www.afghan-web.com [10] 10. www.america.gov , U.S. Helps Restore a Monument to Afghanistan’s Proud Past 19th Century Afghan Thinker Sayed Jamaludin al-Afghani Honored [11] 11. www.renaissance.com [12] 12. wiki.answers.com [13] 13. www.afghansite.com [14] 14. www.afghanland.com [15] 15. www.bashiransari.com [16] 16. knol.google.com [17] 17. www.facebook.com [18] 18. www.scribd.com , Important Dates in the Life of Sayed Jamaluddin Afghani [19]

And Except from this, some fact. the fact is that Jamalludin Afghan has claimed himself as a very proud Afghan and not as a Persian, the fact is that Jamalludin Afghan has gived his Bornplace as Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan and not as Asadabad, near Hamedan, Persia. and the qeustion is, how long does this Asadabad village exist in Persia...? the fact is that Jamalludin Afghan has writed a book about Afghan History and not about Persia History, the fact is that Jamalludin Afghans tomb is in Kabul, Afghanistan and not in Persia, the fact is that Afghanistan and Persia has asked for his body, but the world (people with knowleg, not people like on this English wikipedia) has recognises Jamalludin Afghan as a Afghan and not as a Persian, and so give the body remains to Afghanistan. the fact is that persian people are allways trying to make Afghan History their own, for exemple; Jamalludin Afghan, Jalaludin Balkhi (Rumi) and even the History of Ariana by calling their country Iran and not Persian (ARIANA, make from 3 A,s one A, read the first 3 letters of ARIANA in mirror line and place there the 5th letter of ARIANA (the N) and you wil read IRAN so this why i call it Persia and not Iran because ARIANA belongs to Afghanistan and not to Persia. and the fact is that Ariana is one of the old names of Afghanistan (Historical name of Afghanistan).

By someone else and this writed by some one else about the Conflict between Persians and Afghans about the Nationality of Jamalludin Afghan; Sayed Jamal-u-Din Afghan is one of the greatest scholars that Afghanistan has produced. But there has been confusion surrounding the citizenship of Afghani, which originates from misguided sources. This misunderstanding roots back from the British reporters and agents who suspected the entry and departure of Afghans and foreigners into and from Afghanistan during the late 18th century and 19th century. This is due to the "Great Game" going on at that time between the Czarist Russian Empire and British Empire for the control of the Indian Subcontinent. Iran is disputing the origin of Jamal-u-din Afghan, Iran is claiming that Sayed Jamal-u-din was born in the city of Asad Abad, Iran. This confuses some people because the provincial capital of Kunar in Afghanistan is also called Asadabad. But Jamal-u-din himself claimed in his own writing to be a true proud Afghan. (He was born1839 in Shair Garh, Kunar, Afghanistan)One of the reasons that these rumors was spread about his nationality was because he was a prominent figure in the anti-colonialism compaign against the British Empire in Afghanistan and its neighbours. Western powers used these rumor to destroy his image and start a dispute between the two neighbours. He was also a great promoter of Islamic Unity in India, Afghanistan, Iran and the Middle East. The Western powers also opposed this kind of unity in central Asia and looked at it as a treat to the British and Russian Empire, mostly in Central Asian Republics for Czarist Russia and India and Pakistan for the British Empire.To conclude, there is no doubt that Sayed Jamal-u-din Afghan is an Afghan. In 1944 Remains of Jamaludin was returned to Afghanistan from Turkey. Afghanistan honours this great scholar and has built a monument for his great achievements in the capital, Kabul. This monument is located in the garden of one of the great universities in Asia, University of Kabul.

for more info visit: wiki.answers.com [20]

I think that this English wikipedia has choice a side or the admins are who are working on this project are defently Persians, if they where not Persians or have not choice a side than they would place his bornplace as Asadabad, Afghanistan, because his tomb in Kabul, Afghanistan because their are enough aproves that he is a Afghan and not a Persian, he claims himself as a proud Afghan and he claims his own Bornplace Asadabad, Kunar province Afghanistan, in his own Book about the Afghan History. if you people, specially admins. if you thing i am not right; you haven't choice a side and you are not a Persian then you would have placed his Bornplace as both Asadabad, from Afghanistan and From Persia and give refences to it and let the people think what is right in their own point of view, but no, you have claimed his bornplace as Asadabad, Persia, you have writed his name as Asadabadi and you have deleted the picture of the monument of Jamalludin Afghan in Kabul. So than i claim and very one who has a little bite knowlege will claim you as a men/women who has choiced a side or you are a Persian, so automaticly choice the side of Persia sources and claim him as a Persian!!

In my point of view, what most be the policy of wikipedia (specially English section, because the most of the world people can read and understand English, so it is not right to give the people wrong information. i think it is not right). if wikipedia want to be a neutral Encyclopendi and a respected Encyclopendia, they most place his bornplace as Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. Because Jamalludin Afghan claims himself as a Afghan, he claims his own bornplace as Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan, he has writed a book about the Afghan history (where he claims himself as a Proud Afghan) and specially because his body was returned from Istanbul, Turkey to Kabul, Afghanistan to give him his finanly rest place.

The address of the Tomb of Sayed Jamalludin Afghan; Saheed Tomb, Charahi Shaheed, Share-e-Now, Kabul, Afghanistan.

Abasin-اباسین 15:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

About the early life of Jamal-al-Din, none of your sources are credible enough (they are not comparable with Britannica or Keddie's article in Iranica). About his tomb in Afghanistan, it's already mentioned in this page. Alefbe (talk) 15:57, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice if you avoid using scribd, facbook and blogs as sources. Since the issue is between Afghans and Iranians (both of them claim that Jamaludin was born in their country), it would probably be a good idea to find outside sources (anything written by Arabs, Turks, Pakistanis, Indians or Europeans/Americans). (Ketabtoon (talk) 16:04, 29 January 2010 (UTC))

@Alefbe, hahaha i know you are persian, this is why you will never compar it with Persian Enc... because you Persian people can't change it his Tomb place!! if you people could you, you have doned it all ready.

@Ketabtoon, men think once! did you ever think like, uhm... if he was not born in Afghanistan and he was died in Turkey. Than why have Turkey gived it his remains to Afghanistan and not to Persian...? 1. giving his remain to Afghanistan, is a aprove that he is born in Afghanistan (is a fact), 2, he claims himself as a Afghan (is a fact) and etc, read once again my sources. you want it from other nations, oke i will give it to you. 1. Turkey recognises him as a Afghan by giving his remains back to Afghanistan. 2. Egypt From Reform to Revolution, A Critical Reading of the Political Discourse and Actions of the Islamic Movement in Egypt [21] 3. malaysiana [22] 4. American goverment by: U.S. Helps Restore a Monument to Afghanistan’s Proud Past 19th Century Afghan Thinker Sayed Jamaludin al-Afghani Honored. [23] 5. and www.studying-islam.org recognises him as a Afghan and born in Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. [24]

Abasin-اباسین 16:34, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying. However, we have to follow Wikipedia's core policy, WP:VERIFY - anything you add should be backed with reliable sources. Malaysiana is not a reliable source (the author is unknown). The other sources might be OK to some extent, but still. The best thing to do is to find academic books, and you will be able to find tens of books which will confirm that he was born in Afghanistan. I have a 154 page book on Jamaludin Afghan written by an Indian writer, Dr. Shah Abdul Qayoom. The book was written in Urdu and it has been translated to Pashto by Syed Abdullah Pacha and to Dari(Persian) by Abdul Rahim Ahmad Parwani. In this book he clearly points out that he was born in Afghanistan. There is another book on Jamaludin Afghan written by Qadri Qalachi and it has been translated to Dari(Persian) by Abdul Wahed Nahzat Farahi.

There are a lot of Arabic/Urdu/Hindi language books which confirm that he was born in Afghanistan. All you have to do is to find those books and present them here. (Ketabtoon (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2010 (UTC))

Even if he was born in Afghanistan, Adabaad, Kunar, local historian consider him as a Tajik neverlessness his last name Afghan. The term Afghan is in modern sense not something ethnical, but a national term, used even by some Hazaras and Tajiks to relate themself with the state with the name AFGHANISTAN. Local historians consider him as Tajik. So what? Pushtuns had never a political movement against British-Raj or against anyone, except the Taliban, Haqqani, Gulbuddini, Al-Qaida movements which were a movement of Pashtun-Arab chauvinism. There was only one time when Pushtuns really were incooperated into a movement, an that was the Roshanian Movement, first established by eastern-Tajiks of Ismaeli faith like Ansari and Bayazid Roshan. But I guess, that Pushtuns were incooperated in the movement was again nothing else than just using of Pushtun people and their ghairat and nang. Tajiks like Jamaluddin Afghani, Maulana Rumi etc. were living in that region before Pashtuns existed and before they came down from the hills of the Sulaiman Mountains and Tajiks/Persians were famous as cultural people, heroes, rulers and sub-rulers, scholars, generals, people of pen before the world could inventate it´s own renessance. Btw, Tajiks always called themself and identified themself with Persians and Persian civilization, not with Pushtuns, Afghans, who were unknown to them since they were living on mountains and Greater India and in Arab states.--94.219.218.150 (talk) 21:55, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

First of All

It doesn't mather what he was, a Pakhtun, Tajik, Uzbak, Hazara, Balooch, Nooristani or something else. The fact is that he was a Afghan and born in Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. We are all Afghans, we are all brothers, we are all the same. By our soul, body, life, mind or whatever. We are like a familly, We are all brothers!! Our eldest Brother is Pakhtun and than Tajik brother, Uzbek brother, Hazara brother, Balooch brother, Nooristani brother and etc. We are all one!! We will never give you Persian people and Britisch people the chance, to make different parts from this brothers!! We will never give you people the chance to break us!! We will never give you people the chance to make pieces from us!! to beat each one of us easly in different parts!! We will late happen this!! put this in your head, full of sawdust and hay!! We where allways one, we are allways one and will be allways one and stay together!! Remembers this, before you next time have the bravados to talk about Afghans!!

Jamalludin Afghan and the term Afghan

let me tell you something about Jamalludin Afghan and the term Afghan. His name is Sayed Jamaludin Afghan. Born in Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. He was a sayed and sayeds are mostly Sunni Moslims. Sayeds are still living in Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. The name Jamaludin is a name which is gived more to childeren in Afghanistan than in Persia as childname. By calling himself a Afghan, he wants to hide his Persian origins and being a Shi'ia Moslim. This is the theory and philosophy of Persians. i am right..? if yes listen than, if he was a from Persians origins and shi'ia moslim, he wasn't but stil image it like this. By calling himself a Afghan it doesn't means that he is automaticly a Pakhtun and a sunni moslim. Because in Afghanistan lives not only Pakhtun brothers. But also Tajik brothers, Uzbek brothers and etc. In Afghanistan are not only sunni moslims but also shi'ia moslims, hindus and even some jews. The fact that he is a Afghan and Sunni moslim is very clearly. He was a sayed and sayeds are mostly Sunni moslims, maybe even just and only sunni moslims. Sayeds lives in Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. In the Kunar Province lives 95% Pakhtuns brothers (Afghan proud) and 5% are Nooristanian (proud Afghans) brothers and sisters. So leave Asadabad, my Tajik brothers don't even live in Kunar province. I think it is now enough about Sayed Jamaludin Afghan (The Afghan proud).

Afghan

So now about Afghan. The name Afghan is used by Pakhtun brothers from the islamic period to indicate themselfs. But in this time there wasn't any country in the world with the name Afghan or Afghanistan. And it is has not any true that Persians call the Pakhtun brothers Afghans, to identify the Pakhtun brothers. The fact is that Pakhtun brothers called themselfs Afghans from the islamic period. The name Pakhtun comes at himself from Bactria (Afghans call it Bakhteria or Bakhter). The changing from Bakhter to Pakhtun needed more steps. but i will you it in 3 steps, Bakhter => Pakhter => Pakhtun.

Afghans and the British Raj

Will we have not only Taliban of Mullah Omar and Hesb-e-Islam of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. But, if we look back in the history. Afghanistan was the only country in the world which was never a colony of British people. The British people are trying to destroy the history of Afghanistan. Because Afghans where the people who has destroyed the dream of British people of making Afghanistan their colony and also their dream of being the rulers of the world. Losing 3 time the war against Afghans and Afghanistan was the start of ending of British people as world power and the ending of the Colonialism and Colonisation, not only in Asia but also in the world. It was also the start of world change, the way of thinking, in the world was changed and etc. People who have fight against the British Raj, where Dost Mohammad Khan, his sons and also Abdul Rahman Khan, Amir Amanullah Khan, Sayed Jamaludin Afghan and many more. And the Persian are trying to destroy the history of Afghans and Afghanistan. In simply way to claim it after destroying.

Afghans and Persian

User:inuit18 I guess, you don’t know the history of Afghans or you have very wrong information and based on nothing else than lies of Persian side. One thing is good of you and I like it. You recognises that Afghans people have ghairat, nang, namus, rich history, braves, heroes, leaders, rulers etc and Persian people are be-ghairat, be-nang, be-namus, history less and etc. By saying, they use only the Afghans and their ghairat and nang. Wwwooowww so lovely and feels great, that Persian people have accept that they are BeGhairat, BeNang, BeNamus, History less and etc. just to nice:D Maybe this is the reason why you Persian people are trying to claim Afghan history.

Rumi

Jalaludin Balkhi is from Balkh and he was the one who have brought Mili-Attan (The National Dance of Afghanistan.) to Turkey. Now knows to European people as the Rumi Dance. Which is originly founded by Pakhtuns. I don’t care about what he was a Pakhtun or a Tajik. Whatever he was, he was a Afghan!

Afghans

Afghans have a very long history of thousands years. Some people say 12 thousand year but there are approves in Kabul museum of 9 or 10 thousand year. I know you have this knowledge from willem vogelsang’s book and I’m sure he has got this information from Persian people. I have no other reasons except this or British people. His name sounds like a Dutch man. By saying things like this, you agree that you have not any knowledge and accept everything from every one. By talking like this you have showed that you haven’t any knowledge about Afghans and Afghanistan. And you people believe even a Dutchmen! I hope you are not coming and say to me that a Hollander knows more about me than myself.

Heroes and etc

What do you Persian people have..? Nothing else than liars and slaves. We Afghans have a rich culture, rich history, famous personality like Ahmad Shah Durrani (Ahmad Shah Baba), Mirwais Hotaki (Mirwais Neeka), Khoshal Khan Khattak, Jalaludin Balkhi, Jamaludin Afghan, Rahman Baba, Yama (the first have koning is the history), Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, Hamza Shinwari, Ghani Khan, Dost Mohammad Khan, Malalai Nia, Nazo Nia, Amanullah Khan. Is it enough or do you want to have more…? We have Ariana, Bakhteria (Bactria), Kushans and many more. Oh i’m sorry you people also claim Ariana as yours…hahah.. sorry but it is to funny. Ariana is one of the Historical names of Afghanistan. Today we have Ariana Afghan Airlines in Afghanistan, Germans are also Arians and they say we are originly from Afghanistan. They don’t say we are originly from Persia.

Nicknames of Afghanistan

The Heart of Asia, The Key of East, The Lock of Asia, The Black Poort of World Powers, The Country of Rich History, The Land of Brave, The Land of True Moslims, The Land of Attan and Jirga. Too much to say them all.

Nicknames of Afghans

The Gallant People of Afghanistan, The Honorable People of Afghanistan. People of their word, Freedom Lovers, Peace lovers, Cultural People, Land of Brave and many more.

May god Save us from Fire of Dragon, Poison of Cobra and The Revenge of Afghans!!

The last 30 year is war in Afghanistan but it doesn’t means that we are culture less, history less, knowledge less or whatever. To stop this image, has Kabul museum started a worldwide exhibition called ‘’the hidden Afghanistan’’ between 2005 and 2007. In this last 30 years is America and their allies, are the second World power who have attacked us after Russia. We are now fighting for our freedom with 40 countries and these 40 countries have the help of 70 countries. We love our Freedom so much that we are ready to die but we are not ready to be the slave of anyone. Freedom is our Habit. Even Alexander the Great knows this!

Alexander the Great and Afghanistan (Kunar province)

When the Alexander the great (Iskander) was in Afghanistan, he can’t take the control of Afghanistan. He can’t even capture it. After some time his mother send him a letter and asked him why he can’t capture Afghanistan? He send a letter back with the ground of Afghanistan and write back, in this ground is so much habit, proud, honour, sense of honour, pride that they are ready to die but are not ready to loss their freedom. Alexander the Great lost his first and only battle in Kunar province, Afghanistan. After Alexander the Great was Asadabad called Damkale (Dam, is taked from the Afghan word dama, which means rest and kale is also a Afghan word and means village. so in facts it means rest village). Asadabad was called Damkale because Alexander the Great stays there for some days. The rest place of Alexander the Great.

I think it is now too much for people like you, who have too much of sawdust and hay in their heads. Or are you now going to VirtualSteve and beg him as your god to block me once again, because you can’t talk like a men, but going as a child, as a wife to VirtualSteve and ask to block me. Go again to your god and beg once again to block me! Or do you think you can have a convention as a knowledge men. And by the way, be a men and give always a reaction with your account and not as a women, only with your ip-address. Do you think we can’t find it out who it was from this ip-address. Abasin-اباسین (Tofaan-توفان) 22:28, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I have read the article of Nikki R. Keddie and Persianca Enclopendia a little bite. Nikki R. Keddie write in his article (THE BIOGRAPHIES WHICH WHERE WRITED BY THE PEOPLE WHO KNOWED HIM VERY WELL, ARE DESTROYED WITH POLITICAL INTENTIONS/REASONS). So the qeustion is, who have done this...? Afghans... British people.... Persians... or someone else...? Answer Afghanistan; Afghanistan would never do things like this. Even if they wanted, they are simply not able to do things like this and have also no reasons. British people; well British people want to destroy his image and have also the possibilities and the habit to do jobs like this. as a British people knower. Read this [25]. Persians; Persians want to claim Jamaludin Afghan as a Persian personality and are able to do jobs like this. Let it be clear, his real biographies are destroyed and sometime later comes Persia with letters, with Jamaludin Afghan would have writed and after a time, comes his biographies of being from a Persian origins. Well is it not a little bite strange.... don't do you think so...? Except from this, the Persian people have allways try to claim Afghan history and the personalities of Afghans as their own. To claim Jamaludin Afghan as a Persian, they needed to have proves, to have proves, they needed to destroy the real proves (like his Biographies) and to prove what they are saying is right, they needed to create prove. So what is the true behind this letters..? IN PERSIANCA ENCLOPENDIA, they write (Government of India and Maǰmūʿa sources show that in Afghanistan he called himself the Sayyed “Rūmī” (Anatolian) or “Estanbolī” and claimed to be from Istanbul. The government of India reporter noted that he was a stranger to Afghanistan and spoke Persian like an Iranian.) well he have never claimed himself as a Estanboli or if being from Istanbul. this is what i call the propaganda of Persians! if he is not our, we will also don't late make it yours. well in letters and article wite where writed about him in Afghanistan (when he was in Afghanistan), they write only Sayed Jamalludin Afghan, nothing else. And about he was a stranger to Afghanistan. Well if he was a stranger to Afghanistan. How could he write a book about the Afghan History..? I think it says enough. And except from this i have found 2 books on internet on his biography. Abasin-اباسین (Tofaan-توفان) 23:57, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

This are the 2 books.

Book title: Islam and the Malay-Indonesian world

Subtitel: Transmission and responses

Author: Peter G. Riddell

Publishers: C. Hurst & Co

Year of expenditure: 2001

Language: English

Online available: Yes

Website: Google Books

Page: from page 83

ISBN: ISBN 1-85065-336-4

Booktitle: The Islamic review, Volume 39

Website: Google books

Abasin-اباسین (Tofaan-توفان) 00:09, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Changes

If nobody has objection, i am going to make some changes in this article (look to academic sources).Abasin-اباسین (Tofaan-توفان) 16:10, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

These links are not academic. unless you provide us with academic and scholarly sources we will keep the article as it is. The current information is going no where since three academic encyclopedias(Britannica, Islam, and Iranica) are used.--Inuit18 (talk) 21:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Listen now very clearfully to me you inuit18. This Persian and Britianic are not holy!! There are enough academic sources around the world with facts about him and his origin. You can read it very clearly why one is trying to destroy him and other to claim him. So, to the neutrality of these articles becomes doubts. You are really a brainwashed person. hahah so funny men, the books are not academic sources and articles in Persianica and Britianica are academic sources...? hahaha mashallah, i think you are the knowledged person of your family hahaha. if there was writed for example his birthplace as Asadabad, Kunar province, Afghanistan. I am sure, this brainwashed person would never ever accept it as academic sources. Think once men, two countries claims his origin and his remain are gived back to his originally country, and Britianica set his born place as one of the country (Which don't get his remains and would never get it). Don't you think once why has Britianica choice of this countries as his born place and not both. Is this not a little bite strange, don't you think so...? And about Perianica is very clearly to very one. No needs to makes my words dirty about this! So except from this brainwashed person inuit18, has any body any objection..?Abasin-اباسین (Tofaan-توفان) 01:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Goo nakho kussmadar Pashtunzai —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.219.198.90 (talk) 09:48, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Tag

This article needs some copy-edit work. First of all, the most common version of his name in English is "al-Afghani" and not "Asadabadi". Therefore, "al-Afghani" should be used in the article. Secondly, due to the many edits and the constant IP vandalism, this article looks very amateurish. Tajik (talk) 15:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

"Asadabadi"

I propose changing "Asadabadi" used throughout the article to "al-Afghani." Any objections? --BoogaLouie (talk) 16:48, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Afghani should be fine. Alefbe (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

From his lifetime, his name was Al Afghani. Why do we change his name to Asadabadi ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.113.246.94 (talk) 20:13, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

RV

I have reverted obvious falsifications by an anon IP. Tajik (talk) 22:13, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Jamaludin Afghani, a Tajik?

It should be mentioned that to modern view of Afghan scholars Jamaludin Afghani was an ethnic Tajik, unnoted his last title since Asabad was during his time a predominant Tajik city. The fake claim of some Iranians on him because of some ridicolous facts (he was a Persian-speaker, possibly his parents moved/fled from Gulnar when Pashtun nomads moved to the region and gained it for their own people->Pashtunization, where Shia and turned out as Sunni etc etc.). With all respect dear writers, but it should also noted the view of Afghan scholars, not only of Iranians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.219.214.232 (talk) 00:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Encyclopedic content must be verifiable. (Ketabtoon (talk) 00:17, 3 August 2009 (UTC))

No need to discuss this. Overwhelming documentation, written by al-Afghani himself, proves that he was born and raised in Western Iran. He had several names, inlcuding "al-Istanbuli" and "al-Afghani", always with the pruprose to hide his true identity in order to escape oppression in Iran. Most of his political activity was concentrated in Iran, and some contemporary sources mention that he spoke Persian "with Irani accent". That's why the two major standard literary reference books of orientalistics, Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopaedia Iranica, explicitely state his origin to be in Western Iran. Tajik (talk) 18:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the article to the previous version.--Inuit18 (talk) 04:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Abasin

Before changing and removing content from the article please discuss it here with other editors and after a consensus you can change it.--Inuit18 (talk) 02:10, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

i said i talk with everyone who want to talk tonight, why has this virtueelSteve or what every have blocked me for 31 hours..?

come and talk, what is wrong with you people..? he is from my province Kunar, Afghanistan if some has there problems with it or is he/she thinking that i am not right, than come and talk. and i will tell all the admins, i have respect for your works, but if you someone block me, this time than you people have choice a side. and i think it is not right for the reputation of wikipedia and your admins.

it not right that people are playing with Afghan history, for example watch Ahmad Shah Durrani, Balkhi, Afghanistan history and etc. how do you all would feel if people are playing with the history of your country..? i am sure than you people will view it from other side. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abasin (talk • contribs) 23:47, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

I have reverted falsifications and removal of academic sources by an IP. Tajik (talk) 16:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Square in Teheran

While the English part ot the plate only reads "Asad Abadi Sq.", the Persian text reads "Midan Sayyid Jamalu-d-din Asadabadi", i.e. "Square of the Sayyid Jamalu-d-din Asadabadi" (میدان سید جمال الدین اسدآبادی). So the square honours the person, not the city. Worth mentioning is the use of "Asadabadi" as part of his name instead of "Afghani"; I assume the former is preferred in Iran.--Filius Rosadis (talk) 13:43, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus. --Aervanath (talk) 16:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

---

Jamal-al-Din Afghani → Jamāl-al-dīn Asadābādī — Please consult the following sites:
— [26]. An introduction to the Collected Works of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi.
— Iran Digital Library. This site gives the full text of the collected letters of Sayyed Jamal al-Din Asadabadi (collection has been done by Abol-Hassan Jamali Asadabadi and the book has a foreword by one of Iran's all-time greatest scholars, Mohammad Mohit Tabatabai)
— Iran Chamber Society, by Iraj Bashiri
— Encyclopaedia Iranica, by Nikki R. Keddie.
— Wayiran (talk) 14:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support: Al-Afghani reminds the wrong idea of his Afghan origin, but Asadabadi is neutral point of view. --Wayiran (talk) 15:00, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. For the title of the page, it doesn't matter where he was born. What matters is that what name is more common in English books and Academic sources. Majority of English Academic sources (including almost all reliable encyclopedias) use the name Jamal-al-Din Afghani or Al-Afghani. Encyclopaedia Iranica is an example of those encyclopedias. Alefbe (talk) 18:43, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
• Support He was from Asadabad but had to do Taqqiyah. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 15:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - al-Afghani is the most common of his name. The title is used in all other encyclopedias (including Iranica). Tājik (talk) 15:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose He was from a big city of Asadabad, Kunar not from a small newly build town in Iran. Beside He referred to himself as an Afghan over dozen times "Al Afghan-Hai" to indicate He was Afghan. And besides there shouldn't be any excuse to not call himself "Iranian" if he really was Iranian Muslim philosphy
• Oppose Sayed Jamalludin Afghan was born in Asadabad, Kunar Province, Afghanistan. i cann't understand why the Persian people are allways trying to claim things, what belongs to Afghans and Afghanistan. Like they claim, Jamalludin Balkhi (Rumi) as a Persian, like Sayed Jamalludin Afghan, Persian people have even change their country name from Persia to Iran, to claim the history of Ariana, which is the old name of Afghanistan. than i think by my own, don't have you Persian people your own history..? or do you shame you on your history...? to claim someones history as your own!!

You people have to understand, this is our history, this are our people and not yours. all i want to tell you al wikipedias and specially Persia people, you can write it 100 times (even by help of non Persia people like virtueelSteve or what ever), to claim Afghan stuffs as your owns but the true will not change, they where Afghans, they are Afghans and will be allways Afghans! my dear brother;) get a life:P Abasin اباسين افعان Afghan 23:25, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

• Support: In reply to someone says "it doesn't matter where he was born. What matters is that what name is more common in English books and Academic sources." I just have to say that there are lots of wrong thing in what they say. such as naming Iran for years as Persia - according to the Sassanid dynasty and as they called it in Rome. but all over history and Persian literature named as Iran/Iran-zamin (especially in Shahname) and you wont find any Persia in these documents. so It is not an Iranization. We just try to fix wrong habits. to those who say that Asadābād is a newly built town, maybe want to see its page for more information. Beside, how we have to know that his hometown is big or small? there's a bad reason for prove that. Here we don't talk about nationalism, its about a man that think about united Muslims. Now, we just want to talk and know the truth by documents. After all, according to the documents, there are two other proves: 1- "Reports from the colonial British Indian and Afghan government stated that he was a stranger in Afghanistan, and spoke the Persian language with Iranian accent and followed European lifestyle more than that of Muslims, not observing Ramadan or other Muslim rites." It is nonsense for an Afghan to talk "with Iranian accent" out of Iran and in Afghanistan. 2 - Why would Naser al-Din Shah Qajar invite and deport a foreigner when there are lots of Iranian clerics and Ayatollahs - include Grand Ayatollah Mirza Hassan Shirazi?P. Pajouhesh (talk) 04:11, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

In Persian the proportion of the use of "Asadabadi" over "Alafghani" is 14:1. That means at least in internet, the use of "Asadabadi" is 14 times more than "Alafghani". --Wayiran (talk) 13:05, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The reason behind his title of "Alafghani" is that he wanted to hide his nationality and religion, so he used the title of "Alafghani" to show that he is not Iranian and Shia. --Wayiran (talk) 13:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Baha'i connection?

http://www.h-net.org/~bahai/areprint/afghani/namihha/namihha.htm

No, he was neither Baha'i, nor Babi, nor Azali Babi for that matter. He just happened to mix up specially with Azali Babi's (essentially with anybody who had an axe to grind with the Qajars). For instance, Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi, the son-in-law of Sobh-e Azal, was a very close friend of Asadabadi's (Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi died a horrible death in Tabriz when he was extradited to Iran --- if my memory is not failing, it happened at the time of Mohammad-Ali Shah being the Crown Prince residing in Tabriz). One should see things in historical perspective: at the time in particular Baghdad was a place brimming with Iranian fugitives of all hues and stripes, and they included Babi's, Baha'is, and almost any person who had become a persona non grata in Iran. It is interesting though that while Babi's did several unsuccessful attempts to kill Naser ad-Din Shah Qajar, it was Mirza Agha Khan Kermani, aka Mirza Reza Kermani, a devout Muslim, who finally successfully assassinated the latter, and then by the instigation of Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi. Mirza Agha Khan Kermani had a personal grudge against the Qajars (the story is very long, and very interesting, but briefly, one of the Qajar Princes had bought from him a great deal of merchandise without paying him for them; when Mirza Agha Khan complained, they put him in jail and under torture made him "confess" that he had lied and the Prince owed him nothing. On being set free later, he moved to Baghdad, where he met Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi. Asadabadi convinced him that the source of all corruption in Iran was the Shah himself and to end that corruption "the tree from which the corrupt branches had sprung [i.e. the princes] had to be uprooted" (I paraphrase). This led to Mirza Agha Khan returning to Iran and assassinate Naser ad-Din Shah. Interestingly, on arriving in Tehran, he went to Haj Shaikh Hadi Najamabadi (after whom the "A Shaikh Hadi Square" in Tehran is named) from whom he received one Tuman (a substantial sum at the time) as financial aid. After the assassination, Haj Shaikh Hadi came to be suspected as aiding and abetting the assassination, but finally was found as not guilty. Najamabadi was a very interesting person: a great teacher to many constitutional revolutionaries, such as Mirza Jahangir Khan Sur-e Esrafil (who is known to be an Azali Babi) and Ali-Akbar Dehkhoda. In the traditions of the day, many people shunned Najamabadi and accused him of either being a Babi or someone with Babi sympathies. Najmabadi is known to have given a great deal of financial and moral support for the establishment of the Roshdieh School in Tabriz. --BF 01:50, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move (2)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved: reverted move made after no consensus to move. Omitted macrons in al-Afghani as they were not requested for Jamal-al-Din and were not in the original title. — kwami (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

---

Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi → Jamal-al-Din al-Afghānī — This is the correct title and the stable version of the article had that title. A user moved this page without discussion and was against the request with result "no consensus". I think the page has to be moved back. --Xashaiar (talk) 16:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Xashaiar: This is not the first time that I see you opining on issues that you demonstrably know nothing about. Take the trouble and read the collected letters of Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi, here. After that, you will realise the dismal state of your knowledge regarding Iran's history! No one with a modicum of knowledge regarding the relatively recent history of Iran would place such a request as you have done here above. Last time around exactly this time of the year you were opining on the contents of the Haftsin table, forcing a falsehood into the minds of others (see here; you must have seen my last comment on the talk page of Nowruz, here). It seems to me that you mistake your wishes with historical facts. Here one reads:

Life. Jamāl-al-dīn was born in the village of Asadābād, near Hamadān, into a family of local sayyeds. According to the best evidence, he was educated first at home, then taken by his father for further education to Qazvīn, to Tehran, and finally, while he was still a youth, to the ʿatabāt, the Shiʿite shrine cities in Iraq. Judging from his early copying and lifelong retention of treatises by leaders of Shaikhism, he was influenced by this Shiʿite school, which was noted for its “Fourth Pillar,” the need for the world always to have a “perfect man.” This idea was echoed in Afḡānī’s famous speech that caused his expulsion from Istanbul in 1870 (see below). Afḡānī was also influenced by the ideas of certain Muslim philosophers, especially Iranian ones; works of such figures as Avicenna, Naṣīr-al-dīn Ṭūsī, and Mollā Ṣadrā are found among his books. In addition, Afḡānī’s approach to modern problems was influenced by the still living school of traditional Islamic philosophy with its strong emphasis upon the use of the rational faculty. (N. R. Keddie)

Essentially, Asadabadi took many different names to escape the chance of being extradited to Iran, where certain death awaited him. Iran constantly demanded extradition of him to Iran, however Sultan Abdul Hamid II would not oblige (being an Afghani, and not an Iranian subject, would at this juncture prove very convenient); he relented however partly by first putting three of the close associates of Asadabadi in jail in Trabzon, and later extraditing them to Iran. The three, who incidentally were Azali Babi's (one of them, Sheikh Ahmad Ruhi, was the son-in-law of Sobh-e Azal), were killed in the most gruesome way in Tabriz almost immediately after their arrival in Iran. It is a historical fact that Mirza Agha Khan Kermani, aka Mirza Reza Kermani, who assassinated Naser al-Din Shah Qajar, did this at the instigation of Jamal ad-Din Asadabadi.

Lastly, the name "Afghan" as referring to Afghanistan, is relatively new; historically, what we had was the Greater Khorasan (see the Great Game, Anglo-Persian War and Treaty of Paris (1857) --- Asadabadi was born in 1838!). -BF 21:44, 23 March 2011 (UTC).

BF, why do you make such irrelevant comments here? EIs and EIr (two reliable sources on the topic) have their articles with the correct title. Here is no different. If you disagree please write "oppose" and that's it. If you agree write "support". I have no extra time to explain to you this. Please take your time and read wp:RS and wp:commonname. Wikipedia must be reliable. Xashaiar (talk) 13:09, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Xashaiar: There is nothing irrelevant about my comment, and I did not ask anyone, including you, to "explain" things to me. (You must just stop pretending -- I am not here to argue with you; have already seen enough of you last year -- just go back and read the pile of untruths you wrote on the talk page of Nowruz; then as now, you pretended to know things which you demonstrably did not. I might have forgiven you, had you been moved if by nothing else, by my last comment on that page, to apologize.) It has been from time immemorial the case that Iranians were named, amongst others, after their birthplace; family names as we know them were introduced in the 1920's in Iran (Iran just followed what was introduced some 120 years earlier in Europe through Code Napoléon). Jamal od-Din Asasabadi was born in Asadabad, Hamedan, which is to the West of Iran, one of the farthest places in Iran from the place that later took the name Afghanistan. It can therefore not be more erroneous to call an Iranian born in Asadabad, Al-Afghani. Some people have indeed called him so, but that reflects their ignorance, of history, of the language, of the traditions, and of much more, rather than anything even resembling a historical fact. We are endowed with intelligence, so need not ape others whose lack of knowledge is as brightly shining as the day. --BF 00:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: I said it before, but according to your request I have to say again that:

In reply to someone says "it doesn't matter where he was born. What matters is that what name is more common in English books and Academic sources." I just have to say that there are lots of wrong thing in what they say. such as naming Iran for years as Persia - according to the Sassanid dynasty and as they called them in Rome. but all over history and Persian literature named as Iran/Iran-zamin (especially in Shahname) and you wont find any Persia in these documents. so It is not an Iranization. We just try to fix wrong habits. to those who say that Asadābād is a newly built town, maybe want to see its page for more information. Beside, how we have to know that his hometown is big or small? This is a bad reason for your claim. Here we don't talk about nationalism, its about a man that think about united Muslims. Now, we just want to talk and know the truth by documents. After all, according to the documents, there are two other proves: 1- "Reports from the colonial British Indian and Afghan government stated that he was a stranger in Afghanistan, and spoke the Persian language with Iranian accent and followed European lifestyle more than that of Muslims, not observing Ramadan or other Muslim rites." It is nonsense for an Afghan to talk "with Iranian accent" out of Iran and in Afghanistan. 2 - Why would Naser al-Din Shah Qajar invite and deport a foreigner when there are lots of Iranian clerics and Ayatollahs - include Grand Ayatollah Mirza Hassan Shirazi? P. Pajouhesh (talk) 22:32, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

• Support for Jamal-al-Din al-Afghani or simply al-Afghani. These are the names used in all sources (i.e. encyclopedias, books, biographies, documentaries, etc etc.) and we simply have to follow that.

I also want to add that the comments by user:Mazdakabedi (P. Pajouhesh) and user:BehnamFarid (BF) contain anti-Afghanistan/anti-Afghan tone while trying to lecture us on Iran's history from their perspective. There was no political state or entity by the name of Iran before 1935, it was a loose territory which was known by many different names depending on the inquirers but it was more commonly refered to Persia (Parsi or Parsia... area of Parsi-speaking people), ruled by the Qajar dynasty. Many, including Afghanistan, claim that al-Afghani was born in Asadabad, a village or town in what was then Kabulistan (now Kunar Province) Afghanistan, and from there he immigrated as a child to Iran where he lived for a number of years as Afghan refugee, from Iran he returned to Afghanistan during his late teens and moved to neighboring British-India (Pakistan-India) to advance his studies... and from there he started travelling to other places of the Middle East and then Europe, etc. Changing his article from "Jamal-al-Din al-Afghānī" to "Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi" is Iranian nationalistic POV-pushing, misleading, and falsification.--ANP member (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Writing stuff like "It is nonsense for an Afghan to talk "with Iranian accent" out of Iran and in Afghanistan" itself is a nonsense statement. There are about 1 million Afghans in Iran and I'm sure majority of these (especially the ones born in Iran) speak Persian "with Iranian accent". This is normal for someone who grows up as a child in whatever land (i.e. the Afghans in Britain speak English with British accent and while those who grow up in the United States speak it with American accent).--ANP member (talk) 16:33, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose for me this is a pretty straight forward question, which name is more frequently associated with the person in question? according to simple google search and with a view of past discussions surrounding this article, I believe that Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi is the correct page for the article. more researchers are likely to search for this term while looking for information as available in the article. and I also like that Sayyid Jamāl-al-dīn al-Afghānī is used to start the article, it is a nice balancing act. Regards  Rmzadeh  ►  03:08, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

  Sorry to say this but you are showing your typical Iranian nationalism as is the case with the above Iranian nationals. Why do you Iranians keep ignoring the fact that all sources in the world, including Jamal-din himself, use al-Afghani as his last name. You Iranian editors should focus on the fact that the more you show your anti-Afghan emotions here in Wikipedia the more you reveal your hate. Instead of telling us how you feel about the name Afghan or Afghani, which we all know that Iranians (Persians) hate like how Jews hate the name "Hitler", can one of you find a source which mentions "Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi" and we can cite that for also known as. I have searched but was unable to find this, and by the way, Wikipedia guidelines are to favor the name which is commonly used in all other sources, the universal accepted term, which in this case is definately Jamāl-al-dīn al-Afghānī. By the way, I'm not asking for anything but I'm related to him some how. My ancestors used to visit Persia (Iran) and British India (Pak-India) all the time but that doesn't make us Persian or Indians by ethnicity. Remember that in the past, in 1830s in this case, there were no passports, national ID cards, visas, in many cases not even birth certificates. This made travelling much easier as long as you knew the local language and customs. Even today Afghans go back and forth between Afghanistan and Iran, without any documents.--ANP member (talk) 14:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

In search I got 3,230,000 results for al-Afghani: but only 7,510 for Asadabadi.--ANP member (talk) 15:13, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

ANP member: It is detestable that instead of presenting a cogent argument in favour of your point, you accuse people of despicable things! No one hates Afghans! At least I do not; in my private life I have defended Afghans wherever I have detected injustices against them. Bring facts to the table, or else just keep out of the discussions! No useful cause is served by falsely accusing people of things, as cover for hiding our ignorance. The man in question was born in Asadabad (read the man's own works!), and therefore by the traditions of his time he was just "Asadabadi". Take the familiar names that we hear almost every hour of the day: Khomeini from Khomein, Refsanjani from Rafsanjan, Khamenei from Khameneh, Kashani from Kashan, Sistani from Mashhad but his forefather was from Sistan, Javadi Amoli from Amol, etc., etc. I have specifically cited the names of religious personalities, because Asadabadi was both a religious man and came from a religious family, and religious families are more traditional than other, secular, families. If today these people have the name of the place of their births, or the places of birth of their fathers and forefathers, in their names, it follows that a 19th-century man like Asadabadi could not have been born in Asadabad to an Asadabadi family and be named Al-Afghani. In point of fact, for me personally he could have been called Al-Chinese'i, and it would make no difference to me, whatsoever. However, this is not a place were we give expression to our personal preferences; we are here to present the world with the most accurate information, and as the night follows the day and the day follows the night, it is nothing short of utter madness to consider the name of Asadabadi as having been Al-Afghani. I do hope and trust that you will stop calling people names and accusing them of inappropriate things, of nationalism, or of whatever else that are meant to be insulting and to throw a shadow of doubt on their intellectual integrity! As I said above, just talk about facts, or else keep away from the place. -BF 00:58, 2 April 2011 (UTC).

Oppose move, for the reasons presented above. -BF 04:18, 4 April 2011 (UTC).

BF, I'm not in the mood to hear your personal experiances with Afghans. I don't need you to lecture me on the relationship between Iranians and Afghans, which is very poor. Just yesterday 8 Afghans were killed by Iran's police very very inhumanly and un-Islamic.[27] Now let's focus on the name change and end this irrelevant/useless/ nonsense about you defending Afghans from injustice, etc. Al-Afghani claimed to be an Afghan from a town (Asadabad) in Kabulistan, Afghanistan. Some Iranians in Iran claim that he was born in a village (Asadabad) in Iran. Al-Afghani said that Iranian man was another person by the same name. The name Jamal-al-Din, especially in that period (1800s), was very ordinary and used by many people. You can find many people using it today as well. Even though Nikki Keddie is a biased person, she is trying to tell readers that Afghani was a liar (misleading authorities about who he was), but on the other hand, she accepts his deportation documents which mentions his Iranian birth, we still explained her. She doesn't mention anything about Afghans in Iran and the possibility of the documents being forged or altered. I've read her entire book about al-Afghani and she appears to believe him as an Iranian no matter what. In any case, both views are addressed in the article. Anout the name change, all sources use al-Afghani, we cannot change this to Asadabadi just to satisfy some Iranians. We must present the article without pushing our own POV or agenda.--Afghan American (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Afghan American: This is just to let you know that you seem to be in the wrong place! This is not the place were people lodge complaints about other people and other nations! You may or may not be in the mood for whatever thing, none of which can be any of my business, nor the business of any other Wikipedia editor chancing this page. Regarding your story of Afghanistan in Kabulistan, four points are in order: First, cite a reliable reference in support of your statement; where is Asadabadi's claim recorded? Where and to whom did Asadabadi make such claim? (This is aside from the fact that Asadabadi being a fugitive -- the Iranian state badly wanted him extradited to Iran, he said different things to different people, just to save his skin). Second, it is pertinently not true that "some Iranians claim"! I for one turn out to know Asadabadi through my grandparents and great-grandparents (at home Asadabadi was just a household name). Third, regarding the possibility of so-called "forged documents", this does not belong to the area of history! In writing history, one relies on historical documents and historical evidences that strongly correlate with each other. Things written otherwise, are not historical accounts, but historical novels. Just consider the claim that Asadabadi's left foot had four fingers. This is not impossible (it may even be true), but so long as it is not recorded in some reliable historical documents, such claim cannot be accepted as being part of history. Fourth, that Nikki Keddie were "biased", that is your personal opinion, for which there is no place in Wikipedia. She may or may not be biased, but that is not for us to decide; you had a point if you were able to present references to writings by some professional historians in which they pronounce judgements regarding Keddie's supposed lack of professional integrity, for that is the essence of your claim: that she were a person who distorts history for some ulterior reasons of hers. In closing, I recommend you to address people more politely than you have been doing here (that you are not in some mood is just contemptible language -- it is just undignified for me to even take you seriously with this streetwise language of yours). Elsewhere you accuse me and others of nationalism, which is not a matter up for discussion here -- worse still, you accuse someone of nationalism even while you are demonstrably ignorant of the name of the person who discovered alcohol. You seem to have convinced yourself that people owe you something, which very baldy reflects on your character and your general attitude towards other people who happen not to be Afghan, or Afghan-American, as you seem to be considering yourself. --BF 01:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

• I just wonder why are you people talk in this rude way. Why are you spread these amount off hate toward the pages. We are just try to talk about an article. Please talk in a polite way. Dear BF, you don't have right to say to others something like "keep away from the place" you say something like that over and over under any discussion. Dear ANP, I don't know how you say something in this way that Iranians hate Afghans! I just wonder according to what you say that. Why every Afghanistani in any article just say something like that. It hurts others. I think you hate Iranians because of their governments behaviors to you. Please people, just talk about the article in a civilized way and just don't spread hate from anyone to any other. And remember, don't write something nationalistic, Just write about something with adequate documents.
• As I told before, there are lots of proof for this claim. you say something about accent, but it is not true, every ethnic people talk in themselves in their own accent everywhere they live - especially in cities like Tehran: Gilaks in Gilaki, Lors in Lori, Hazara in Hazarajati and etc and in other places at least in first and second generation. so It is not true what you said. Beside, I told another reasons for this claim such as invitation form Nasser-ad-Din Shah. British documents and etc.
• As I told it before, there are no document about what you said about the trip from Afghanistan to Iran. Document means: a work of non-fiction writing intended to store and communicate information, thus acting as a recording. There are no auto-biography or any kind of signed documents that proof this claim (look at British India documents). P. Pajouhesh (talk) 02:40, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

Mazdakabedi, please do not dispense advice! I have been very clear in my statement: I have not taken any person's right to comment, rather said that a comment must contain reasoned arguments and not unfounded accusations. Those who come only to hit and run, by accusing people of unwholesome things, are simply not commenting on what matters, but undermining other people's credibility. -BF 04:25, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I followed some of Mazdakabedi's (P. Pajouhesh's) edits and he/she appears to be a vandal, an Iranian nationalist, and a heavy POV-pusher. [28] [29] [30] I get very frustrated when seeing someone do things like this, he/she wastes not only its time but also others'.--Afghan American (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I got 141,000 hits for Jamal-al-Din al-Afghānī and only 140 for Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi and only 81 for Sayyid Jamal-ad-Din Asadabadi.--Afghan American (talk) 04:34, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Dear Afghan American friend, It is you that behave like a vandal, I even not nationalist, but I'm against any kind of that. You delete others claims and resources. You are really vandal that adding your info to any page without any discussion. I asked you to discuss about your claims first, but you add your info again. Next time be polite or by your rude way, I will request to block you. Beside, which one of these pages you linked are vandalized? If your History knowledge is poor, it's not others problem.

Just for your information:

• Every kid knows Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi who first discovered Rubbing alcohol.
• Everyone knows that Mughal Empire has ties to Iranian history. Today Afghanistan and Pakistan (complete or parts of them) was some days as a part of Mughal Empire and some other day Iranian's (Safavid, Afsharid, Zandid, Qajars). Beside, lots of Iranian artist move to there, co-military actions in Safavid days, Persian language, etc. You are really poor in history.
• Kabul Shahi is a kingdom in days of collapsing of Sassanids and was a part of Historic Iran (not today Iran). This is not about a politic today Iran. It's about Historic Iran (or as someone named it in west Persia).

As it seen one time your account become blocked of your behaviors. Please, behave in a civilised way and discuss about your claims first, or you will be blocked again by other users. Here we just talk. It is not about nationalistic behaviors. I answered to your claim in up but you act uncivilized. P. Pajouhesh (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support for Jamal-al-Din al-Afghani, just because at least in English this is his best known name. There's no conflict if the Persian wiki adopts another criteria, many historical personages are named differently in different countries or languages. The different theories about Jamaluddin's reasons for using this surname should be part of the article. I have to add that I don't see any necessary "nationalism", let alone hatred, in any of the postures. You can be an Iranian nationalist and call him "Afghani" and viceversa. --Filius Rosadis (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

I think that we had talked about this reason and its inadequacy, above. P. Pajouhesh (talk) 18:41, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

• I have no idea who is correct. But the move was made after a request to move had been closed with no consensus. I have therefore restored the article to al-Afghani. (No-one seems to object to the al-, which was not in the original title; I can remove it if they do.) — kwami (talk) 23:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

References

Al-Afghani's religion

Salaam Please remove the word shia under Al-Afghani's photo. He was not shia and it is rubbish. I think that this article has been written by a shia iranian. First of all his name is Al-Afghani, so no shia connecion. Secondly Al-Afghani was one of the precursors of the salaf movement. Then how could Al-Afghani be a shia? Please correct it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.237.80.228 (talk) 20:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

He was not shia!!!

What a big surprise, Jamal-al-din was shia, very funny. 90% of muslims (sunnis) consider him as one of the biggest ulema of Ahl Sunna, but in this article he becomes a shia. This article is not neutral and should be written by someone neutral and who knows something about Syed Jamal-Al-Din Al-Afghani. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.237.80.228 (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Odd bit about Masonic Lodge

There is something odd in the similarity between this sentence, at the bottom of the political views section:

It is a surprising information that Hanna Abi Rashid, then chief of the masonic lodge in Beirut, wrote in the book "Da’irat al-ma’arif al-Masoniyya" that “Jamal ad-Din Afghani was the chief of the masonic lodge in Egypt, which had about three hundred members, mostly scholars and state officials." [25]

and this sentence in the page on Mohammed Abduh, at the end of the biography section:

It is a surprising information that Hanna Abi Rashid, then chief of the masonic lodge in Beirut, wrote in the book "Da’irat al-ma’arif al-Masoniyya" that “Muhammad Abduh was one of the leading names of the masonic lodge in Egypt, which had about three hundred members, mostly scholars and state officials." [9]

I don't have access to the book, but it seems odd to me that the author would write almost the exact same thing about Afghani and Abduh in almost identical words. The only difference in wording is that Afghani is said to have been chief of the Masonic lodge and Abduh is said to have been a leading member. Is the reference accurate? Is the book reliable? That is, should we trust that Afghani and Abduh were Masons?

Whoever added the information seems to have just done a cut and paste job - as evidenced by the beginning "It is a surprising information"

I recommend that the lines on the Masonic lodge be deleted in both articles unless the source can be verified and someone can explain why this 'surprising information' is relevant.

I'm also going to post this on the talk page for Mohammed Abduh

Update: No one replied. I'll remove the lines. --204.191.130.148 (talk) 04:21, 12 October 2011 (UTC) Kno InRes

again, the masonic link cannot be verified. the same post if you google it is found on wahabi / salafi websites. extremists seems to be posting the same thing.

until the person (whom i suspect is a wahabi / salafi) who added this line verifies these accusations I will remove it. Mmafactscheck (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

i have actually found reference to him being a mason at http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/afgani-jamal-al-din which seems quite credible. the previous entry made no sense, a simple cut and past job. Mmafactscheck (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:58, 11 December 2011 (UTC).

Encyclopædia Iranica is a Jewish publication in the Colombia University! Have you got a reliable source? Preferably Non-Jewish? ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.75.124 (talk) 07:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Al-Afghani shia???

What a big mistake in this page. Al-Afghani's followers and disciples are: Hassan Al-Bana, Syed Qotb, Ghulam Mohammad Niazi, the muslim brotherhood movement,... Are these people shia? NO NO NO It is strange! A shia ulema who has only sunni followers and no shia follower. Please correct this article and remove the word shia, because he was not a shia. Thank you for your comprehension — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.237.80.228 (talk) 17:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Ayatollah Khomeiny was a follower of Assadabadi. All Iranians are followers of Assadabadi. Why do you think we say Death To America? How many of you dare to say that? None! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.64.75.124 (talk) 07:28, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

discrepancy between Death

There is a discrepancy on his death date. Could someone confirm the correct date? Nobletripe (talk) 12:44, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

IDNETITY:

I HAVE GOT A VERY GOOD NEWS FOR IRANIZ AND THAT IS EVEN THOUGH THEY TRIED TO FAKE AL-AFGHANI'S IDENTITY AND PRETENDED THAT HE WAS FROM IRAN BUT RECENTLY UNITED NATIONS EDUCATION SCIENTIC ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS (UNESCO) HAS ANNOUNCED THAT THEY HAVE REGIESTED AL-AFGHANI AS AN AFGHAN PHILOSOPH AND THAT HE WAS FROM ASADABAD OF AFGHANISTAN NOT FROM THE FAKE ASADABAD OF FAKE IRAN.

LET ME REPEAT MYSELF AGAIN THAT YOU CANT FOOL THE WORLD. THIS HAPPENS DESPITE IRANINANS STRUGGLED A LOT TO FAKE AL-AFGHANI'S IDENTITY.

NOW NO BODY CARE WHAT IRANIS SAY CAUSE THEY KNOW IT IS ALL LIE AND WORLD WILL LAUGH ON IRAN AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AL-KABULI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.63.57.27 (talk) 07:18, 12 March 2014 (UTC)