Talk:Cham Albanians/Archive 7

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Archive 7

Map of Cham Presence

I saw you added a Cham Alb map. Its nice the way its aesthetically designed, however there are a few issues with it. You used Cherkezi's map. It has problems because it covers areas that go beyond Albanian speaking areas and also colours them as Albanian and others. This is incorrect (read Wilkinson, as i said you should on Ilirida talkpage to avoid these kinds of issues in future). There is an excellent study by Mihalis Kokolakis which after much intensive research has shown what the Albanian speaking area of Chameria was in the 19th century until 1912/1913 ([1], for language map see page 374. There are also other maps about Ottoman administrative units too in Kokolakis you may find interesting). I would base the language data in your map on that Kokolakis map. Plus it shows Muslim/Orthodox and mixed religion in the Cham Albanian speaking areas. Another thing your map shows the area of Greek Pogoni as Albanian. Only three villages in the 19th century were Muslim Albanian: Argirohori, Krisodali and a majority in Pogoniani -these fall under the Lab dialect area. In the Konitsa area only two villages, the Muslim Albanians in Prosilio (abandoned by the 1930s) and the Orthodox Alb speakers still in Plikati -these fall under the Tosk dialect area. Muslim Albs (Tosk) in Konitsa were not a majority. The Muslim community was split between Muslim Albs and Muslim Greek speakers who considered themselves as Turks living with a sizable number of Orthodox Greek speakers. Anyway these should not be in your map, as well as the Kastoria and Florina areas (Alb Tosk dialect speakers) if its depicting people who spoke/speak the Albanian Cham dialect. Make these changes and remove Cherkezi as the basis of your map and add Kokolakis instead. Then readd your map to the article. Just some friendly advice on the articles like Cham Albanians. Be aware of WP:3rr rules. Getting sanctioned is unnecessary.Resnjari (talk) 21:01, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Another thing with your map is that it covers to much areas like Kosovo and Macedonia. Its just a waste of space and removes focus from the Cham area. Make your map have the Tirana area as your furthest point north. On its eastern side, slim it down a bit to if your were drawing a straight line down from Flambouro. Like this you include the contours of Yanina vilayet which is relevant. Maybe include main rivers like Kokolakis did, if you want. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:13, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Before you readd the map ping me, just to make sure all depictions are in order. Best.Resnjari (talk) 21:27, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Resnjari, for your good advice! I will definitely look it up and make additional changes until the map is ready to be used again. But shouldn't this discussion be placed on the talk page of the article? Also, I noticed that the source you provided is only written in greek, does a translation in English exist? If not, I'm not sure how we could use it on the English Wikipedia? Also is there sufficient proof that the source is NPOV? Thank you, I'm aware of the 3RR ban. N.Hoxha (talk) 21:34, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Resnjari that Kokolakis map. It's detailed about the maximum extent of Albanian speech in the pocket of Chameria.Alexikoua (talk) 21:46, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Make the changes first based on Kokolakis. If it gets reverted again after its added to the main page, then engage here. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:08, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

The problem with the study of Kokolakis is that it only portraits regions with linguistic or religious affiliations, it fails to depict any ethnic presence, which is the element I need for the creation of the map. Also is there any English version of this work? N.Hoxha (talk) 22:29, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

The work of Robert Wilkinson is apparently only applicable in the region of Macedonia. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:42, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

The regional outlines of Chameria and the Ottoman vilayet are in my opinion reasonable, I don't think any changes should be made in this matter. But I'm always open for discussion. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:42, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

N.Hoxha, you wont get anything on ethnicity that's credible or not contested on this matter. Muslim Albanians among the Cham group overall have identified till now as Albanian. Orthodox Alb speakers of the Cham group, mainly those coming under Greek administration identify as Greeks beginning from the interwar period. Kokolakis' data is still good as it shows the linguistic situation of the 19th century until 1912/1913 -this is lacking in the article and would make for an excellent addition in map form. The study of Wilkinson is focused on Macedonia. As Macedonia was the focus or touched up by all cartographers etc regarding ethnicity, language etc of the region he has analyses all those maps that encompasses the wider Balkans area. As such he gives an analysis of Cherkezi. See the index, read the book. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:54, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

I'm not about to read an entire book to prove your point (?), if you want to be credible you should link the citations of this book that you want to use for your argumentation. If you don't then your point cannot be taken into account. I still need a map with ethnic presences, maybe other users could provide one that is not contested. Also I'm not sure who/what Cherkezi is, the map I used was made by N.Lako. N.Hoxha (talk) 23:17, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

N.Hoxha, yeah ok its by Lako, sorry i had someone else in mind. Anyway, no map exists that is not contested or accurate about the ethnic presence in this part of the world. The map you used and other similar ones that exist and claim an Albanian presence deep inside what is Greek Epirus is false, just like the ones that claim a Greek presence deep in southern Albania. Wilkinson takes to task "cartographers" that make either claim. The reason why i said for you to read the book is because you want to create similar maps using data from these kinds of maps. It’s up to you whether you want to take on board that advice. Kokolakis is your best bet and most accurate data shown in map form on what you want to portray here. Most other maps are problematic to put it politely about those "cartographers". I am not saying this to be a prick. I've have been on wiki for a long while now, and as a newbie in your context, i am just merely saying what would be the best and most productive route to what you want to achieve and making it stick on firm ground. I say this so you don't end up in edit wars or get baited by certain editors who would like but nothing more then to have you sanctioned on trivial matters. In the end its your call. By the way your vilayet boundaries are ok (i was just saying Kokolakis covers it as well and you can cite one of those additional maps as a ref for vilayet borders). Best.Resnjari (talk) 23:59, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your concerns, Resnjari. I'm not completely sure of why some maps are 'better' than others by Wilkinson's standards. If you know the criteria he used to classify some maps as being reliable and others as not, than it would be highly useful if you could list them here-below. There are plenty of maps on the English Wikipedia that do use ethnographic maps of the 20th century, I don't understand why they can't be used for this particular map. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Agree Kokolakis is good. I have doubts about the map. Pogon is known to have been Greek and Vlach, not Albanian, for example. The solid Cham area near the coast is not wrong per se, but the map kind of misses that some areas are checkered Albanian-Greek, so more resolution is necessary. Konica was not mostly Albanian. It had an Albanian minority and the surrounding area was all Greek and Vlach. Actually further north though, you missed a few Albanian towns per Kanchov. --Calthinus (talk) 17:50, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Kokolakis' map only depicts regions according to religious affiliation and doesn't inform us of the ethnicities that were present in those regions. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Fair, it's been awhile since I looked at it. It was quite useful for that purpose. You could look at Aravandinos, and Thimi Mitko's responses to him -- these do not pass RS but they give some context. Beyond that your guy is probably Baltsiotis but Resnj probably knows more on Chameria. My general understanding is that we've really never had an uncontroversial ("South"-)Epirus-wide high definition analysis of the late Ottoman demographics -- tho it would be great if I was wrong. I'll be back with Kanchov, though I'm not sure Albanians in W Macedonia or Konica could be considered Cham as they spoke Tosk proper (minus villages near Florina founded by people from Chameria etc.). That Pogon was nearly devoid of Albanians is pretty well known afaik, but don't sweat it, we all make mistakes.--Calthinus (talk) 04:04, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Kokolakis' map offers a detailed view about the "maximum extent of Albanian speech" so depicting where Albanian was spoken even by few people. It's also interesting that he offers the historical border of what was called Chameria i.e. the three kazas (Filiates, Margariti, Paramythia) in official terms.Alexikoua (talk) 17:42, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Which map of Kokolakis depicts linguistic regions? I can't find the page, I only found maps with religious affiliations or portraying population growth. N.Hoxha (talk) 17:48, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Resnjari said p. 374 I believe. It must be in the same map that depicts religious groups, Aromanians etc. There is also an area which depicts the maximum extent of Albanian speech (reaching Loutsa and Lakka).Alexikoua (talk) 18:54, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

per Kokolakis. Ignore the red line, Corfu etc. It's not the final version.

Alexikoua (talk)

Nice map ! This is good for a linguistic representation, but it still fails to depict any ethnic presence. Could you also provide the pages you used as reference for the delimitation in the description? And if I'm not mistaken, I think you used the map of user @AceDouble: his name should therefore also be mentioned in the source. N.Hoxha (talk) 01:06, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

It appears that no other ethnographic map has been proposed for the ethnic presences in the region of Chameria. I think that my Templates Named referencesNamed references Error checkCheck for errors

original map was sufficient and since I noticed that other maps on Wikipedia use ethnographic maps as well I don't see any problem with that. But if everyone agrees that the use of ethnographic maps should be avoided, then all maps that are still using those ethnographic maps should also be updated. To avoid disputes I could maybe write something like "maximal extent of Albanians in the region (without meaning that they represent the majority in those regions)" or "according to N.Lako". What I also can do, is to zoom in the discussed region. N.Hoxha (talk) 01:19, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

According to N.Lako.

Several ethnographic maps have been presented during 19th-early 20th century this doesn't make Lako's map special compared to the rest. I will do some improvements on Kokolakis based map. I'm waitin for further proposals on how to depict a... Kokolakis/Elsie map.Alexikoua (talk) 08:20, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Hoxha: I wonder why the Ioannina Vilayet is depicted in light red in your map. It offers the wrong impression that its related with the red areas. Even Lako doesnt show it that way.Alexikoua (talk) 08:24, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

N.Lako's map seems to be more detailed than any other ethnographic map, especially regarding the region of Chameria. It appears that Lako is native to the city of Korçë, meaning that he had a better understanding and was more familiar with the region than other cartographers. Therefore his work seems more credible. In comparison with other ethnographic maps, Lako's map is reasonable as it doesn't overrepresent or underrepresent the Albanian population in the region. N.Hoxha (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

I changed the color of the vilayet from light brown to a shade of darker brown to avoid confusion. N.Hoxha (talk) 17:52, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

@N.Hoxha, Lako's map does not reflect the reality of the situation and is presented from an Albanian point of view during the National Awakening. As said before, Kokolakis has done a scholarly study and shows were Albanian was spoken. The only other scholar who outdoes Kokolakis on this is Lambros Baltsiotis. Now until he publishes portions of his PHD thesis regarding his fieldwork on al villages in the area and who spoke and still speaks Albanian Cham, Kokolakis is the best for now. @Alexikoua i used your map as a template for mine. You had most of the language border correctly done. However you had placed some extra areas as Albanian in the north when Kokolakis shows them as in the Greek language area. I adjusted the boundary. I also cut out extra areas that lose focus from the area about the Cham dialect. After all this article is about Cham content, the emphasis should be on that. Same goes for @N.Hoxha's map. Also both of you include Chameria boundaries. There is no set definition of the place. Muddling it up with the dialect content just makes things more complicated then they are. In the map i made, i did not include a Chameria regional boundary (which Templates

Named referencesNamed references Error checkCheck for errors both of you had) and nor did i include a vilayet boundary.Resnjari (talk) 08:35, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that the nationality of creators would justify the discreditment of their work. But supposing that it does, wouldn't that mean that Kokolakis represents a Greek point of view since he repeatedly uses Aravandinos' works? N.Hoxha (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Nice job. I assume we can further improve it by adding Elsie's Chameria borders on this map or adding the so-called kaza of Chameria/Camlik borders per Kokolakis&Gawrych.Alexikoua (talk) 20:01, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. But on boundaries etc, best not. It will muddle it. To much time over the years have been spent on definitions of Chameria boundaries, causing stupid fights over it. Superimposing Elsie's border definition or other on this kind of map may make some editors in future argue WP:SYNTHESIS, WP:UNDUE or other. Data based on the map is only from Kokolakis and only one map related to the linguistic situation. Whenever Baltsiotis publishes (hopefully in the near future) i want make a detailed map as per that data by settlements. Absent that, Kokolakis is the best we have now. On Chameria/Camlik, as far to my knowledge, it never constituted as a kaza or vilayet unit known by that name nor has it been claimed in any academic sources, Albanian, Greek or other. The area usually depicted as composing Chameria was divided by 3 or 4 kazas (Filiates, Margariti etc). Gawrych only notes that the Ottomans were aware of Chameria/Camlik as a geographic region of the area, which is different from being an administrative unit. Cheers.Resnjari (talk) 20:40, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Resnjari I also want to thank you for taking the work to make that map! Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 21:08, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

For Albanian speaking communities further east (give or take "Cham") that would be covered in Hoxha's map, here are the settlements one should investigate to confirm for -- pulled from Kanchov, but as its a 1900 publication, that itself would not work as a source.

Grevena kaza : one town, "Trivesht" (entirely Albanian and Muslim)

Kastoria kaza :

• Kastoria itself has an Albanian (Christian) minority that is a bit less than 5% of the town
• entirely Albanian and Muslim : Sliven, Muchuritsa, Novoselo, Shak', Revani, Vidovo, Cheta, Miroslavtsi
• entirely Albanian, mixed Christian and Muslim: Kapeshtitsa
• entirely Albanian and Christian: Linotopi, Tuhola, Dryanovo

Florina kaza:

• Florina itself has an Albanian minority at about 3% (mixed Christian and Muslim, more Muslim)
• entirely Albanian and Christian: Upper and Lower Kotori both, Bellkamen, Epe(h)ovo, Elovo, Negovan, Lisko
• entirely Albanian and Muslim: Upper and Lower Kleshtino, Tsarovo, Lazhets', Vartoloma, Pleshevitsa, Ma(h)ala

Cheers. --Calthinus (talk) 21:33, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

A few things on Kanchov. Kapshticë, Maçurisht ("Muchuritsa"), Bozhigrad (modern Miras) + Çetë -he counts their population as a combined one, Vidohovë ("Vidovo") are all on the border and in Devoll, Albania. Negochani, Obsirino, Klabuchishta were mixed: Mus Alb with Orth Slavonic. One correction, Kanchov does not give Tsarevo as Alb and nor do i know a source that makes the claim. Other villages mentioned by Kanchov are in what is now Greek Prespa: German, Popli, Rombi and Vineni had Muslim Albs. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:49, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus: I wouldn't combine Lako's and Kranchov's works since that would probably be considered to be a case of synthesis WP:SYN. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

N.Hoxha SYN doesn't really apply to images that way. If it did, almost all existing maps on the area whether made by me, Alexikoua, Fut Perf etc could not exist. It's more SYNthy if you combine sources on a specific figure for a specific population-- so you can't just average frequencies for haplogroup maps, for example. But for citing different aspects, that is juxtaposition, which is officially WP:NOTSYNTH... if we are applying en-wiki policy to commons files that is. --Calthinus (talk) 03:32, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Just a notice about your recently created map is that Kokolakis points to the religious groups in general irrespective of linguistic background. As such Muslim/Christian refers to the local population in general not just the Albanian speakers.Alexikoua (talk) 21:53, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

He shows two things in the map. Where the language border was overall and what was the religious composition of the population in the area. I only added the religious make up for those of the Albanian Cham dialect enclave. Nothing beyond that.Resnjari (talk) 22:41, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

Yeah tbf in an ideal world the parts of that Cham enclave which have non-Albanian populations would be marked... somewhere.--QCalthinus (talk) 06:10, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

But this map in question deals with linguistic areas and not populations. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

The specific enclave included mixed settlements and in some of them Albanian speakers formed a minority. The religious data concerns the entire population it's not focused on specific groups.Alexikoua (talk) 08:44, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

These were a few settlements literally counted on one hand or to the second. Overall the Albanian Cham dialect was compact. The main thing is to keep an eye out for the publication of Baltsiotis' research. A detailed map can be made from that. Best.Resnjari (talk) 17:49, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Per Baltsiotis and Kokolakis only a portion of the area included entirely Albanian speaking settlements. In fact Kokolakis states that around Sagiada Albanian speech was absent. A detailed map will have Sagiada excluded. Best.Alexikoua (talk) 18:19, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Baltsiotis is in full agreement with Kokolakis. His definition of the Albanian speaking pocket does not offer a different view (western Thesprotia&Fanari). There is nothing to expect about an expanded Chameria.Alexikoua (talk) 18:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

As i said, a handful of settlements here or there on their own. Both Baltsiotis and Kokolakis do do agree that the Albanian Cham dialect area was compact. Fanari, along with part of Tsamohori and part of Lakka Souli are part of the Arvanitika speaking zone. Anyway, Baltsiotis is the guy to keep an eye out on to make a detailed settlement by settlement map.Resnjari (talk) 18:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Kokolakis prefers to define this area as a zone of "maximum extent" and that's all we have. A compact area existed but that was a tiny fraction inside this area.Alexikoua (talk) 20:30, 29 February 2020 (UTC)  

Some useful information about a Baltsiotis based map is that Souli became entirely Greek speaking after the exodus of the Souliotes in 1820, while in Parga the Muslim community spoke Greek.Alexikoua (talk) 20:43, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I am aware about Souli, after the Souliots left most of it remained without a population till now. Only Samoniva got resettled with Orthodox Greek speaking families (like the big Tokas family). As Parga was a Venetian ruled enclave, its Orthodox population spoke Greek and after many left due to Ali Pasha's capture of the town, Albanian newcomers arrived. They adopted the language of the Orthodox locals. Still its a bit more complicated with the newcomers and thier language in Parga. Just like with the Greek language in Paramithia and its Muslim population, although those were local coverts to Islam and not newcomers. Preveza's Muslims were also newcomers after its capture by Ali Pasha and they did a similar thing to the Muslim Pargiot population in terms of language. Anyway as i said, these are literally a handful of places like this. For now Kokolakis is best neutral source we have to show in map form. On Baltsiotis, he has been publishing parts of his PHD thesis which he completed in the early 2000s in book chapters, journal articles etc. It was about Albanian speaking communities (Orthodox and Muslim, historic and modern, thier relations etc) in Greece. Some time back he said that he would be publishing data on Albanian speaking settlements on a book about the interwar period etc. Whenever that gets published then something comprehensive and detailed can be made into a map.Resnjari (talk) 21:22, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I've found access in some chapters but in printed form. I can't see any difference compared to Kokolakis and tThere is no settlement by settlement detailed description so far.Alexikoua (talk) 21:47, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Both scholars don't differ overall on the linguistic boundary between Albanian and Greek. Baltsiotis PHD is big and he did it at a French University. Anyway, my point is by having the data on all settlements in the area and their status: monolingual Muslim Albanian speaking, monolingual Orthodox Albanian speaking, monolingual mixed Orthodox and Muslim Albanian speaking, and those settlements that where different from that. It would allow one to make a detailed map that doesn't just show a hatched line as the maximum extent, but can show a detailed picture. Plus that kind of data can be added to Wikipedia pages about the villages. Until that data is out there in book form from Baltsiotis, for now Kokolakis it is. Best.Resnjari (talk) 22:04, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Resnjari: The specific map you created is the first realistic map about the maximum extent of the pocket of Chameria. Though it should be shown that this is an exclave as Kokolakis does in his map. No reason to obscure that the Chameria pocket shares no borders with the rest of the Albanian speakers. Moreover, maps about the spread of the Albanian language should be updated accordingly.Alexikoua (talk) 10:25, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes i am aware of Kokolakis, i have been using the source for a very long time now. On the map matter, the hatched line shows only the Cham dialect. The article is about Chams, not other Albanian groups. I left it that size and focus because of that reason. Other Albanian dialects are outside the scope of the article topic.Resnjari (talk) 20:35, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree with Alexikoua on this one, regarding the dialect map (this one [[2]]). I had long had issues with that map that I never voiced. Lab and Cham were not really historically contiguous on land (by sea via Ksamil, sure I guess). I'm fine with the map having Albanian in Vurg and Aliko etc as there are little pockets, but per Kallivretakis those pockets speak Cham, not Lab. It also has Dropull and Greek Pogon as Lab speaking even though I'm unaware of any Albanians historically in either, and even if there were, why do we make them Lab not Cham? Side note it also needs other fixes: Arbanasi is missing, bizarrely Malesia is not marked for its Albanian dialect, that Shkoder Muslims speak a Central Tosk dialect is missing, Tosk Albanian in Ukraine is missing, I am also suspicious of the Lab/NTosk boundaries on the map too... etc. --Calthinus (talk) 17:47, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

On the map your referring too, one can only go so far in making changes due to its size. On Dropull, 3 villages have been Lab Albanian speaking. Grapsh until the 19th century and Frashtan and Lugar until the 20th century. On the other side of the mountain, Peca, Muzina and Navarice still speak Albanian. On Ksamil, its a new village only a few decades old. Albanian Cham dialect only becomes connected again to Lab Albanian via Ksamil (Cham) and the nearby village of Cuka, when Albanians (Lab) moved in and made the village mixed with its Greek population. Yes i agree Malesia in Montenegro should be shown, in addition to the Krajina region which is compactly and overwhelmingly Albanian speaking. The area of Tosk in Konitsa covered Prosilio (called previously called Korsatska) and still Plikati + part of Konitsa town. Only Lab areas in Konitsa were Argirohori, Krisodouli and in Pogoniani until 1923. I would also add the Peshter pocket in Sandzak, its still Albanian speaking. I would also say that the partuclar map has a disclaimer that the Albanian language spoken does not imply that its a the majority everywhere hence its rough contours. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:35, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Ksamil had a teqe in the late Ottoman era. Yes re Peshter and Kraja. For areas within Albania I'm fine with inclusion as Greeks speak Albanian as L2 (or L1...) nowadays. What is bizarre is Greek Pogon speaking "Lab" without any Albanians present (I mean Pogon region in Greece, not the homonymous Albanian one). We can't support this and at the same time criticize Alexi's map for Kolonja etc as it is the exact same error. --Calthinus (talk) 16:00, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@Calthinus:, it depends how the map is interpreted (it already has a disclaimer that is does not represent majority or minority situations). Is it historical and modern as well? If both, then i don't see an outstanding issue. Greek Pogoni had three villages that were Muslim Albanian until 1923: Argyochori, Chrisodouli (Green. 44 [3] and Pogoniani [Green, pp.56-57. [4]. Prior to the 19th century there was an Orthodox Albanian speaking presence in some places that was assimilated by the Greek speaking population, see Vakalopoulos, p.322.[5]. The question with that map on dialects is, what exactly is it showing, historical or modern (i.e 21st century) or both. If its historical then its definitely under representative of the scope of Albanian, i.e the Toplica and Morava valley should also be shown, as for the most part, especially the first, Albanians lived compactly until 1878 and belonged to the Kosovo Gheg dialect. If it’s just showing the modern era, then Arvanitika should not be shown in deep southern Greece, as its in terminal decline and almost extinct, the Medveda pocket in Serbia hardly has any Albs left, post 1999, Arberesh in Italy is in terminal decline in areas outside Calabria and Sicily, even Arbanasi would not get a showing as its in terminal decline. As i said before it has the appearance of both. Anyway, the issues with Alexi’s map are that it is synthesis of problematic sources. The editor's map in no way claims language boundaries, but claims a traditional presence of ethnicities (something the editor was not in favour of when it came to @N.Hoxha's map!) based on some bogus sources like Soteriadis, a WW1 nationalist propaganda map (the Greek version of Lako's map), etc and contradicts other sources used in the map like Winnifrith map which align with Kokolakis data on p374. Anyway please don't conflate the two, otherwise it conveniently muddles the situation for other editors who may want to do so. Best.Resnjari (talk) 18:51, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that the dialect map should be discussed in this section or even on this talk page, it's rather off-topic. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

N.Hoxha, i agree. However @Cathinius made it part of the discussion, so i had to give a reply otherwise other editors (besides you and @Calthinius), which i have had extensive interaction on wiki over the years, may use it to make false equivalencies etc.Resnjari (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Correction: Alexikoua brought it up first not me, he said so at 10:25 on the 1st (diffs are hard on the phone, sorry). But on this I stand corrected, good work finding those. Ideally we would have specifically Lab cited for Pogon (btw Nishllis used to have their own dialect, not the Rugova-Peja-Shkodra NWG one, nor the NEG as spoken in Prishtine/Tetove etc). Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 04:15, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

The linguistic map seems great indeed, but I think that the resolution could a bit higher. Also, I would definitely mention Kokolakis in the caption of the image to avoid eventual disputes. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Aesthetics aside, it’s ok, it does the job. Hopefully there will be data from Baltsiotis in future to make a settlement by settlement detailed map.Resnjari (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

All right then. Just the caption still needs to be updated, other than that I think the creation of the linguistic map might finally be over! If you want a version of the map with a higher resolution, I wouldn't mind drawing it. N.Hoxha (talk) 22:51, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

As long this isn't a product of OR and POV it's ok. As such I assume that areas beyond Kokolakis' Albanian speaking "maximum extent" zone are not included.Alexikoua (talk) 23:54, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

By the way, Vakalopoulos mentions something about 12.5k Greeks in Permet district and 6k in Lunxhery [[6]].Alexikoua (talk) 23:59, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I wonder what makes neutral a map without with selective use of Kokolakis depiction of a specific area. This falls directly to wp:POV. A source should be present in its entirety. Please not cherry picking.Alexikoua (talk) 13:00, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The specific areas relate to the Chams. I fail to see why areas of Laberia and Toskeria are included, or areas where Albanian Labs or Tosks inhabit. They are not the focus of this article, and have thier own respective articles. Likewise showing things related to the Chams on those pages would not suffice. Kokolakis was not cherry picked.Resnjari (talk) 13:09, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Then it appears you have not full access to the source. Kokolakis depicts this area as an Albanian exclave and this should be displayed in the map. It's relevant with the scope of this article: Albanian speech in Tsamouria was an excluve. Kokolakis' line of Albanian maximum extent should also displayed in your map without interruption.Alexikoua (talk) 14:04, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Really? I have the PDF and i have the weblink of Kokolakis (if others want to consult it). As this talkpage shows in my above comments I was the one to refer Kokolakis first. On the map, yes, the Cham zone is depicted an as enclave. Its precisely this that other areas relating to the Albanian Labs and Tosks do not suffice for this article, and thus the map. The focus is completely on the Cham speaking enclave and nothing more beyond the hatched line, which are its furthest linguistic limits.Resnjari (talk) 14:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

In case a map shows adjacent areas this is useful to the reader and it's not a reason for removal (wp:OWN?). The area was an exclave surrounded by non-Albanian speaking regions as the source displays. That's not shown in your map & needs to be addressed else we have wp:POV. Per BRD we go back to the latest version agreed.Alexikoua (talk) 14:39, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The reader, if they bother to come to this page is here because they are interested in Cham related subject matter, not bits and pieces about Labs and Tosks. They have their own respective articles and are off topic. I did not show the other stuff in my map because it is off topic, not about Cham related content. Focus is Cham related content, as the pagename specifies.Resnjari (talk) 14:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The reader needs to be informed that this is an "exclave surrounded by non-Albanian speakers". An essential fact that is hidden in your version. Nevertheless per wp:BRD my concerns were stated immediately as soon as this map was added [[7]] & latest agreed version will be restored. You understand that the map you insist is half finished and does not even contain labels (and the rest of Kokolakis line of Albanian speech as well). Alexikoua (talk) 15:18, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Why does the reader need to be informed about Labs and Tosks, or areas that have nothing to with Cham related content? They are off topic. Also you seemed to be ok there in that comment of yours with the map i produced, adding your own disclaimer that you wanted more. Remember there were other editors who wanted to include maps that showed other designations about the Albanian speech/inhabited area and weren’t really keen on this map. Also you should retract your statement there that somehow i am hiding something. Aspersions is not on. My reason was in previous comments, and now, that the focus, as the article stipulates is about Cham related content. If you want to really add this map to an article about wider lingusitic spread, add it to Northern Epirus or the Epirus article.Resnjari (talk) 15:34, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The new map (below) is much better than the old one, which looks like a bunch ketchup smeared all over the place. Not only is it much easier to differentiate between Christian and Muslim areas (as opposed to the previous map, which used very similar colors for Christian and Muslim areas), but it also includes regional boundaries, important towns and has a much better legend. If the sticking point are the areas in Albania, the map can be cropped. Khirurg (talk) 15:58, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Maximum extent of Albanian speech (Cham Albanian dialect included): 19th century till 1912/1913 (Hatched line). Population (irrespective of linguistic background) shown by religion: Muslim majority (Orange), Orthodox majority (Light Grey), Mixed (Yellow)

• I would prefer not having a pic at all rather than having the pic posted nearby. It is confusing. The part out of Chameria, according to the map, was entirely Alb speaking or entirely Greek speaking? Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:13, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The part north of the dotted line (in Albania) is Albanian-speaking according to the map. Khirurg (talk) 16:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Ktrimi991, I also would rather not have that map. Showing Albanian Tosk and Lab areas is off topic. Also since it was said to me previously that i was "hiding" details from Kokolakis map, didn't he show a Vlach area to the east? As @Alexikoua insisted on showing wider coverage, why was that area omitted? I mean, one can't say off topic about that, because if one does, then Lab and Tosk areas are that too, hence why focusing on Cham related content makes sense, as per the scope of the article.Resnjari (talk) 16:25, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The new map shows exactly the same area as the old map. Khirurg (talk) 16:28, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

It shows other areas which have nothing to do with this topic. A claim was made to me that i was "hiding" content frorm Kokolakis. Why no Vlach area shown in @Alexikoua's map if its a complete representation of Kokolakis' map? I am curious to know.Resnjari (talk) 16:29, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Now I understand what the map uses as a boundary between Alb-speaking and Greek-speaking areas. Orthodox Alb-speaking areas and Orthodox Greek-speaking areas would be better with different colors. I agree with Resnjari, the map either should only give info on Chameria or give a full picture with info on Romance speakers too. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:36, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so if 1) Vlach-speaking were shown, and 2) different colors were used for Orthodox Greeks-peaking and Orthodox Alb-speaking areas, would that resolve the issue? Khirurg (talk) 16:41, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I find the present version acceptable (with the note that being included in the Alb speaking area does not mean homogeneous Alb popl), but sure more detail is even better. Note about the above map that although not in Chameria, it is not accurate to show places like Giannina as solely Christian. --Calthinus (talk) 17:14, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

I am fine with the additional disclaimer in the caption to the map i made. At least the focus is still on the Cham area and falls entirely within the scope of this article and nothing more.Resnjari (talk) 17:27, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

@Khirurg: I'm ok with the Vlach pockets as shown in Kokolakis. However the source doesn't paint the Orthodox Alb-speaking areas in diferrent color (same happens the Alb. vs Greek Muslims) obviously because there aren't exclusively Orthodox Alb-speaking areas in Kokolakis' map.Alexikoua (talk) 17:22, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Obv Greek Muslims should also be separated from Albanian Muslims as we would not want people to think the Vallahades for example were Albanian as that is simply false. For now the current map with Khirurg's disclaimer seems better than going down this emotive rabbit hole regarding Alb Christians and Greek Muslims. --Calthinus (talk) 17:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, i agree. @Khirurg's disclaimer works ok and the map relates directly to the scope of the article and nothing beyond that.Resnjari (talk) 17:38, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

• I am OK with both the current version and with the version with the map posted nearby, if the modifications I mentioned in my previous post are implemented. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:32, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

The Souliotes

This article refers to the Souliotes as Albanians even though they're Greeks, and the actual article on the Souliotes confirms this. Can I fix it? LightningLighting (talk) 22:29, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

44 Chams living in Thesprotia

The first source is still talking about the Muslim Chams "The Muslim Chams of Thesprotia". The second source does not say anything about the population. @Alexikoua AlexBachmann (talk) 20:01, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Ktistakis states that there are 44 Chams living in Thesprotia while Hart states that the remaining Albanian speakers in Epirus-Glorina are entirely identified as Greeks (no Chams at all), while Chams refers to Muslim exclusively. Why do you remove them?Alexikoua (talk) 03:05, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

He refers to Muslim Chams. This distinction means that there are/were other Chams he doesn't/didn't consider. I wonder why... Stop with this non sense because you are getting ridiculous. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 17:10, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Your argument doesn't even make sense. If they identify with the Greek nation why did Ktistakis talked about Muslim Chams? If they are considered Muslims a priori he could have just used the term "Chams".

You claim that "Cham refers to Muslim exclusively". I don't think Ktistakis would agree with you since he felt the need to specify "Muslim" Chams in his work. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 17:18, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

• You cant't combine two different sources that say different things to make your own conclusion, as per WP:SYNTH. Ktistakis says "44 Muslim Chams", not "44 Chams". If Orthodox Chams are not Chams is Hart's opinion, not Ktistakis'. If you want the infobox can say regarding Greece "44 Muslim Chams, 40,000 Orthodox Chams". Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:42, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

[in the 20th century, Cham applies to Muslim only] it's cited by Hart and Kreti also states that. As such non-Muslims are not included in Cham estimates. Including them will be wp:ORAlexikoua (talk) 03:21, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Vickers and Bugajski include the Orthodox in their estimates of Chams' number in Greece, so it is not OR at all. Now you should find a source that says "44 Chams in Greece" (not "44 Muslim Chams"). Ktistakis does not say that the Orthodox are not Chams. If other authors say that, they can't be combined with Ktistakis' number of Muslim Chams to create a WP:SYNTH issue. Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

According to Hart, since the the Orthodox are entirely assimilated, and since there are no Mulsims, the number of Chams in Epirus is 0. If the edit-warring over 44 continues, I will replace that number with "0". Khirurg (talk) 14:45, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Do not waste your time with such frivolous threats. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Not a threat. According to Hart the remaining Orthodox Chams are entirely assimilated. Khirurg (talk) 15:14, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Winnifrith is the only source there saying Albanian has "virtually disappeared", other sources there talk about people speaking Albanian in the area. Btw both I and Khirurg have made 3 reverts. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:57, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually, you have violated 3RR. I will give you a chance to self-revert, otherwise I will report you. Khirurg (talk) 16:01, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Where are 4 reverts? Provide diffs for each one. I can count 3 only. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:05, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Removed Banfi [8], removed Hart [9], [10], [11]. Self-rv or AN3, your choice. Khirurg (talk) 16:09, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

@Khirurg: you are ridiculous. This [12] does not count as a revert because Hart has nothing to do with the numbers. Ktrimi991 did not removed the numbers, he did only make a clarification. You are being pathetic. FierakuiVërtet (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Khirurg, who is the editor being reverted in the first diff? Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:14, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Whoever added Banfi. You removed a source, that's a revert. Btw, I only have 2, not 3. Khirurg (talk) 16:30, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Banfi had been tagged for a year; it is not a revert. Anyways, if you think that an admin would block a long-term editor for replacing a tagged source with a much better one, feel free to file a report. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention that I have already made it clear I will not revert again due to having made 3 rv. Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:41, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

@Khirurg you need to stop with your outrageous threats and your seeming nationalist POV. When you don't have any arguments, you just disappear from a discussion, such as in Ioannina. Not to mention of falsifying articles. It is getting ridiculous. You need to stop to hang continuously on a source 20 years ago which other sources clearly contradict. AlexBachmann (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

Removal of text that does not mention Chams/Chameria

Available bibliography does not make a single mention to Chams/Chameria in late medieval/later Ottoman era. There were various Albanian tribes that passed or settled in parts of the region but "Chams" as a tribe were not recorded in late medieval/early Ottoman period. Information of this era can be part of the relevant tribes (Zenebeshi/Shpata etc.) which by the way had not stayed in Epirus after the Ottoman conquest. Alexikoua (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

2015 tags

As I wasn't an editor in 2015, I don't know the circumstances which led to the placement of article-wide tags in 2015. Are there identifiable reasons and specific parts which led to tagging? If yes, can anyone who was active then list them? If not, I prefer to remove the tags and whoever finds specific parts of the article debatable can tag specific statements. Maleschreiber (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

The tags were added by User:SilentResident [13]. Their complaint [14]. Unless SilentResident now has any policy-based reason, I will remove the tags. They can't stay there forever, and the article does not look worse than most of other ones of similar topics. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:02, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Oups. The tags can and should be removed. Sorry about that. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 01:13, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

No worries, I will remove them then. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Kokolakis (2003)

I removed the statement The Albanian tribes that had moved to parts of northwestern Greece in the 14th century were scattered southwards, apart from a small group that remained in Thesprotia. Muslims and Christian Cham Albanians formed the majority of Thesprotia, they were not a small group and as all sources about Ottoman era demographics discuss, Cham Albanians were not the only such population in the part of Epirus which lated was incorporated in Greece. I replaced this statement with Kokolakis (2003) who lists the following areas and settlements (p.51): Besides Cham Albanians which lived in Thesprotia, Albanian-speaking communities lived in the northern part of Prefeza prefecture (the Fanari plan (Albanian: Frar and the hinterland of Parga) and the Parasouliotic villages Zermi, Krania, Papadates, Rousatsa as well as Derviziana and Mousiotitsa, which are part of Ioannina prefecture. Hence the statement that only a small group in Thesprotia remained is inaccurate. The statement by Kokolakis (2003) corresponds to sources which have been used in relevant articles about Parga and Fanari.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

The historical region of Thesprotia is much wider than the limited modern-day prefecture. Mikropoulos by simply saying Thesprotia refers to the historical region (Fanari, Parga are part of it). As such he is accurate in this statement and in agreement to Kokolakis.Alexikoua (talk) 20:03, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Can you provide a quote in which Mikropoulos by simply saying Thesprotia refers to the historical region (Fanari, Parga are part of it).? Botushali (talk) 04:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Mikropoulos doens't refer to the prefecture since he doesn't state that. Thesprotia as a geographic term was in use from much earlier per ancient Thesprotia which concerned the entire coast. The prefecture was created in the 1930s and scholars don't use anachronistic definitions unless its stated by them.Alexikoua (talk) 05:23, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

So how do you know Mikropoulos is using your definition of Thesprotia, or are you just assuming? Botushali (talk) 06:16, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Alexikoua's edit doesn't correspond to the article itself and it implies a false narrative about the presence of Albanians in Thesprotia itself. Albanians of all religions were the large majority in Thesprotia itself not a "small group".--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:07, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Thesprotia is a small part of Epirus and indeed this was a small group in the context of Epirus demographics as Mikropoulos noted. As such there is no issue with Mikropoulos on that.Alexikoua (talk) 01:29, 22 July 2023 (UTC)