Talk:Cham Albanians/Archive 1

Comments

1) Clarified a point on minority treatment by Mataxas (not all minorities were mistreated and the discrimination was along political support lines more than ethnic ones) 2) The article had no mention of the Balli Kombëtar and the role of the Balists in persecuting Greeks and Jews during the occupation. I amended that.

Albanau, if you object to this form of the article, please discuss it here. It is not acceptable, among other things, to refer to provinces of independent countries as though they rightfully belonged to another independent country. Chronographos 15:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

It wasen't me I allways use my account. However Chronographos what you wrote is clearly not NPOV.

Çamëria (or Chameria) is the name sometimes used by Albanians to refer to the Greek province of Epirus. The area probably was home to an ethnic group of Albanian origin and Muslim faith, the Chams. The Chams are believed to have fled to Albania during, and immediately following, World War II, probably because they had been persecuted by Greek Resistance guerilla groups fighting against the Nazi occupation army, on the belief that Chams had cooperated with the Albanian-launched invasion of Greece by the Mussolini fascist regime in 1940, and had continued cooperation with the Nazi occupiers. Greek censuses mention no Muslim presence in Epirus since 1951; they do not include linguistic data.

Albanau 14:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

The article proper should just redirect to Epirus, the region's continuous name from time immemorial until now. Your insistence to be using an Albanian name for a province of Greece is rather telling. Chronographos 15:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I propose that it should be redirected to Çamë!... one more thing, Çamëria is according to Albanian understanding a region in northwestern Greece, so there is nothing wrong with this. Albanau 15:25, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Corrected reference to "under Greek influence" in 4th century. Removed refernce to "Cham Christians". Acerimusdux 17:08, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Albanau's suggestion that this article should refer to the Chame people and not to Epirus. I think this is a fair compromise. Acerimusdux, do you agree as well? Chronographos 17:16, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Not entirely. Since the region is at least corresponds roughly with what is known as ancient Epirus, I think this needs to at least be mentioned, with a prominent link to the main article on Epirus for more information. I don't think a simple redirect is informative enough, though. When this conflict over "Chams" arose on the Albanians page, I had no idea what it was about and had to do a bit of research. Wikipedia at that point was of no help at all. There ought to be room for an article of some sort that at least outlines what this is about, with as much a NPOV as possible. I also don't believe Albanau ever siad the article shouldn't mention Epirus. He simply said there was nothing wrong with it mentioning Chameria. If you want to include all of the information in the article on Epirus, they could certainly be combined, with the name Albanian name Chameria mentioned prominently in bold at the top of that article, and a section added including the history of the expulsion of the Chams followng WWII, but I think a seperate article will be more convenient for readers.

I also think the page title should comply with wikipedia conventions which say "Title your pages using the English name, if one exists, and give the native spelling on the first line of the article. If the native spelling is not in the Latin alphabet, also provide a Latin transliteration. Only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." So the appropriate name is "Chameria", with the native spellings following (maybe in parenthesis) on the first line. No one will find this article as it is - no one is going to do a search on English Wikipedia for a word using non-standard English characters.Acerimusdux 20:00, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the article may mention that "Chameria" is the name Albanians sometimes use for Epirus, properly linked. I also have no objection to describe what may or may not have happened to the Chams, provided both sides of the story (Albanian, Greek, or what have you) are given. In other words, as long as NPOV is adhered to, I will have no problem. Chronographos 20:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

---

An interesting thing about (modern) Greek arguments is that different rules always apply to Greeks and non-Greeks. So, it is unacceptable to use alternative names for territory in other countries? What do Greeks call Istanbul? Constantinople, I think. Or why do Greeks call southern Albania "NOrthern Epirus"? Basically, Greek people need to accept common rules for everyone, rathern than trying to cheat the rest of the world with fake historical arguments.

---

Disgrace

This artice is a disgrace! There's more POV here than in the Nazi mysticism and Holocaust denial articles put together. There's petty nationalist POV here from the Greek perspective and from the Albanian perspective. This should be remedied as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Ethnic Groups Template and above all, RELIABLE SOURCES should be found. You cannot make up things as you go along... Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

One problem here is whether WikiProject Ethnic Group applies here, as these people are Ethnic Albanians and identify as such. Are there any similar articles on similar minorities which we could copy? Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

You're right there. It is a highly problematic article and full of various POVs. I don't know enough about the subject to make the necessary corrections, however. --Damac 08:18, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

To start with, I'm going to move this article to Cham Albanians; it's the best thing to do. Albanian diacritics should not be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), and Cham on its own may cause confusion with the Cham people of Eastern Asia. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 12:09, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Good start, Rexhep Bojaxhiu

Well done on improving this article. I was wondering if you could provide more concrete references for some of the figures mentioned in the article, such as the numbers of victims murdered by Zervas's troops and, in particular, the claim that there are 200,000 Chams living in Greece today. --Damac 22:14, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

The 200,000 Chams living in Greece comes from the UNPO Website. The UNPO also say that there are 280,000 Vorioipirote Greeks in Albania. Those figures probably are the absolute maximum though. The Albanian authorities claim that there are 36,000 Greeks in Albania, and the Greek authorities claim that there are no Chams in Greece, but only Albanian immigrants which they say number over 500,000. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The numbers of the victims of the EDES come from the MOD pdf. I'll copy-paste the relevant parts here soon, but I can't open it now (the computer I'm using now doesn't support PDFs). I'll do it later today. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 14:50, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't have to - I have added it to the article. Rexhep Bojaxhiu 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)]

This article is a disgrace

[inflammatory comments removed at 16:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)]

Telex, please explain why you removed this comment. If not it comes back. Politis 16:51, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

For being inflammatory, totally unhelpful to the article and containing personal attacks against an entire nation. --Telex 16:54, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I can understand why you disliked it, but his comments are only targeting the people who contributed. As far as I can tell, there are no attacks against an entire nation but against the Hoxha regime - and in this he echos the voices of millions of Albanians who believe they suffered during those years! Where do you see those attacks? Politis 17:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Links

I removed the link to www.unpo.ee because (a) it does not appear to be the official link to UNPO (that is www.unpo.org) and (b) There is no mention of Cham Albanians in the UNPO website. TheArchon 15:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, that website was from the Tartu Coordination Office of the UNPO (which we know exists from the org website), the website you are claiming is the official website does claim to have Chameria as a member [1]. Telex 15:55, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. It seems that Cham Albanians were a member of UNPO in 1995, but they do not seem to be mentioned in the current member list. TheArchon 16:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Not according to the Tartu office. Nevertheless, the SPAÇ is based in Tirana, so maybe the article should make this clear. Telex 17:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

That is confusing, because the .org website seems not to mention Chameria as a current member or have a report on the Cham. TheArchon 17:12, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I see two possibilities: either SPAÇ is a member and was left out of the .org list by mistake, or they are not a member and the .ee list is out of date. I suggest we contact them (UNPO) directly and ask them to check their membership rolls; they can be contacted by phone fax or e-mail. Telex 17:18, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Done! TheArchon 17:27, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

What? Telex 17:30, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I sent UNPO an email message, asking them to clarify which of the two lists is correct. TheArchon 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

OK - good. Telex 17:46, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

According to a representative UNPO contacted through .www.unpo.org (name withheld) "At present, Chameria is not a member of UNPO and their inclusion in the website of the Tartu office (www.unpo.ee) can be considered erroneous." and will be corrected as soon as possible. TheArchon 08:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

World War Two Events

I am not an expert on the issue per se but I have done extensive study of British SOE and US OSS activities in the Near East and Balkans during the war.

The long quote from Joseph Jacobs really leads the wikipeida reader astray. This eviction was specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse, and he says so in his memiors. The British liason was not an advisor but the de facto commander as London and SOE controlled all supply and funds to the EDES resistance. In fact he had been sent to replace Col. Eddie Myers, who London believed was not attacking the Nazi allied Albanian's forcably enough. The British at the time in Balkans were working at cross interests and often in direct opposition to the US OSS work. The OSS was doing things the British did not like, like supporting non Monarchist resistanc groups, helping Jews evacuate to Palestine, etc. Jacobs also was has to be taken with a grain of salt. None of his reporting is actually first hand.

Territory of Cameria

In the Albanian Wikipedia page they say :

The region in the Greek part of the region of Epirus is about 6000 km² (Epirus has 9203 km²).

If you analyse the map in this same Wikipedia you'll see that Cameria outpasses the Thesprotia borders !

So why do you identify Cameria with Thesprotia ? Are the writers in the Albanian Wikipedia all wrong ?

--~April 14th 2008CUSENZA Mario (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 18:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually yes, they are. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sources please...

In order to prevent an edit war, I will open this discussion and ask that users advocating the statements below to please provide any relevant sources:

Although, the massacres that took part in this region (massacre of Paramythia and Chrysi), against the Christian-Orthodox population, had the support of hundreds of Cham militias, no Cham criminal had been brought to trial after WWII, they found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazi forces at 1944.

If the above statements are true, then they need to be verified as soon as possible. There is no guarantee that unsourced statements will remain in the article for very long. Deucalionite (talk) 16:53, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I took the liberty of fixing the mechanics of the unsourced statements:

The massacres that took part in this region (Paramythia and Chrysi) against the Christian-Orthodox population had the support of hundreds of Cham militias. There are no reports of Cham criminals having been brought to trial after World War II. They found refuge behind the Albanian border after retreating together with the Nazis in 1944.

Again, I urge all users to provide sources if they advocate these statements. Otherwise, they will be deleted in the near future. Deucalionite (talk) 17:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I am pleased to declare that User:84.38.8.42 implemented vital reference citations to the unsourced statements I mentioned earlier. Deucalionite (talk) 15:57, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

the lead

"because of their collaborating activity with the Nazi forces". If there are several hundreds in Elas, how could it be "their collaborating activity". It is generalised. I propose "becouse some of them collaborated with Nazi forces" What do you think?balkanian (talk) 18:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that since there were many Cham Albanians prior to WWII, it is only logical to assume that those outside of the majority of Nazi sympathizers would still constitute a sizeable force.

If there is evidence to indicate that most Chams did in fact support the Germans during World War II, then we as users must adhere to the evidence. Deucalionite (talk) 19:03, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

We need a reference about that. There were 20.000 cham albanians in Thesprotia, the only reference we have is that "several hundreds had joined ELAS". We need a reference that the majority (all, some, many?) were sympathizers of the Nazi. We cannot say that all of them were either in one side, or in the other. There is always a middle point. All the references I have read till now, either here, or in books says that the majority of cham leaders collaborated. This doesn`t mean that the majority of Chams collaborated. Let me assume (just per talk): If there were several hundred Albanians that fought with Elas, how many would have joined Nazis? For sure not children, old and women (i.e. the majority of population) and for sure not all man (this is impossible and unsourced. So why do we continue to say that they (all?) collaborated. I think that "some" is more apropriate, till we find a reference about the exact number or group.balkanian (talk) 19:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that more references are needed. I understand the dilemmas you are facing. If sources state that only Cham leaders collaborated with the Nazis, then that automatically does not prove that those leaders commanded the majority population of Chams. However, if sources state that both the majority of Chams and Cham leaders sympathized with the Nazis, then we as users must make this explicitly known in the article. Deucalionite (talk) 19:41, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

This is the part that Vickers is speaking for their collaboration. She says "supposed colaboration", "accused for collaboration", but not that they colaborated. She says that they were "prejudiced" by both greeeks and albanians. So her reference is out of any case. "Background The Chams have a strong sense of tradition, identity and community which has united them over the past 62 years since their expulsion from Greece as suspected Nazi collaborators.5 This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans during the Second World War Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home. The mountain Chams were largely Orthodox Christians and the coastal and lowland Chams were mostly Muslim. By classifying the coastal Chams as "Turks" rather than Albanians, Greek historians have been able to justify the earlier confiscation of Cham-owned land, much of which was given to Greek refugees from Turkey during the population exchanges in 1923.6 Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey. Nevertheless, today the Chams are amongst the richest and most successful entrepreneurs in contemporary Albania." balkanian (talk) 19:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

We finally have a number...and guess what, it is "several hundreds". Mazower says that cham acitivists were willing to unite Chameria with Albania, and that several hundreds enlisted in Balli Kombetar, helping Nazi`s. "Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1942, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anticommunist Bal Komitare to act as lokal gendarmes." balkanian (talk) 20:04, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not understand what is cited in the article? What do you think?balkanian (talk) 20:05, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Please consult the citations review below. Deucalionite (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Citations review

This section is geared towards analyzing, scrutinizing, and verifying all in-line citations currently implemented in the article. I will add my recommendations towards improving all references involved.

1) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Where to Now? Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

2) Elsie, Robert. A Dictionary of Albanian Religion, Mythology, and Folk Culture. New York University Press, 2000, ISBN 0814722148, p. 131. "Jelim. Figure of southern Albanian mythology. These giants, Alb. jelim, def. jelimi, from Gk. έλλην 'Greek' with Slavic transmission, were known to the Saranda region. The Çams (of southern Çamëria region) believed themselves to be descended from a race of ancient jelims. cf. M. Lambertz 1973, p. 482; E. Cabej 1974b, p. 204."

Perfect citation. This should serve as an example as to how professional and realistic reference citations should look like on any given article.

3) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 25.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

4) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece. Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

5) Russell King, Nicola Mai, and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers. The New Albanian Migration. Sussex Academic Press, 2005, ISBN 1903900786, pp. 67 and 87.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

6) Kresti, Georgia. The Secret Past of the Greek-Albanian Borderlands. Cham Muslim Albanians: Perspectives on a Conflict over Historical Accountability and Current Rights.

Terrible citation. Author and title of book/paper are not sufficient. All citations require author name(s), title of book/paper, publishing information, ISBN # (if available), page number, and direct quote(s).

7) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423, p. 26. "...Elas was opposed to the idea of collective punishment of the Cham community. Several hundred Chams had enlisted in its ranks..."

Excellent citation. However, the direct quote could be expanded a little.

8) Mazower, Mark. Inside Hitler's Greece: The Experience of Occupation, 1941-44. Yale University Press, 1993, ISBN 0300089236.

This is a viable citation. However, there are no direct quotes that can help verify the statements that are supposedly supported by this source.

9) The Society Farsarotul - Southern Albanian, Northern Epirus: Survey of a Disputed Ethnological Boundary (Tom J. Winnifrith)

I am not sure if website information should be incorporated into this article. Further scrutiny is necessary.

10) Vickers, Miranda and Petiffer, James. The Albanian Question. I.B. Tauris, 2007, ISBN 1860649742, p. 238. "In a town such as Igoumenitsa (Albanian Goumenitsa), the Albanian language is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants."

Perfect citation. This should serve as an example as to how professional and realistic reference citations should look like on any given article.

Please contribute wherever necessary. Thank you. Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions

The first citation. I think it is irrelevant. The only statement made by the author about Albanians in Turkey is that "Following their expulsion from Greece, most of the poorer Chams went to Albania, whilst the wealthier ones went to America and Turkey." balkanian (talk) 20:18, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Vickers does not say about any cham returned in Greece. balkanian (talk) 20:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

If that is the case, then the citation is useless. Hopefully, other users can attest to your analysis so that we can avoid any potential edit-wars. For the time being, however, the reference citation should be removed.

Any other suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 20:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

There is another book by Vickers "The Albanians: Modern History", which contains information about the population exchange, but I cannot view it right now, due to bad internet connection.balkanian (talk) 20:32, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I'll check it out. Deucalionite (talk) 20:36, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is what I found:

Vickers, Miranda. The Albanians: Modern History. I.B. Tauris, 1997, ISBN 1860645410, p. 113. "In March 1924, the Mixed Commission decided that Greek subjects who were Muslims and of Albanian origin, and more specifically those residing in Epirus, had to be excluded from the compulsory exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey. Indeed, in accordance with the above-mentioned decision, a special delegation headed by Swede Eric Einer Ekstrand visited Epirus (and Macedonia) to collect information on people of Albanian origin. However, the members of this delegation concluded that the great majority of Muslims who were Greek subjects thought of Turkey as their country of origin and were willing to be included in the exchange of populations." 20:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC) Deucalionite (talk)

I have made some changes with references in the article. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 09:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I implemented some tweaks, but need some help further enhancing the citations you provided.

1) Vickers, Miranda. The Cham Issue - Where to Now? Paper prepared for the British MoD, Defence Academy, 2002. "In Greece those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian language is only spoken privately in the home!"

Could you please verify the exact wording of the direct quote? I found some mistakes in the quote itself and need you to double-check it.

2) Mazower, Mark. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960. Princeton University Press, 2000, ISBN 0691058423. "Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1942, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anticommunist Bal Komitare to act as local gendarmes."

Great citation. However, you forgot to add the exact page number(s).

Please review my suggestions when you get the chance. Deucalionite (talk) 13:54, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For the first reference, I don`t know how but I miswrote the citation. The exact citation is this "This is in part due to the violence they suffered historically, but also to a collective prejudice against them on both sides of the border. Many Chams were persecuted by the Albanian Communist regime, which like the Greeks, believed that they had collaborated with the Italians and Germans during the Second World War Whereas in Albania and the diaspora Cham communities have managed to preserve their dialect, traditions and folk songs, in Greece itself those Orthodox Chams, now numbering around 40,000, who were allowed to remain in Greece, have suffered from assimilation and the public suppression of their Albanian heritage and language. As a result, Albanian is only spoken privately in the home"balkanian (talk) 13:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

For Mazower is page 25.balkanian (talk) 14:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent work my friend! Any other suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 14:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think that the lead is totally NPOV now. But I think, we should reword the first sentence because it is too long and with more info that it needs. We can make it like this: Cham Albanians are a group of ethnic Albanians originally residing in the region called in Albanian Çamëria and in Greek Thesprotia. This is part of the larger region of Epirus and corresponds to the prefecture of Thesprotia and northern part of prefecture of Preveza.balkanian (talk) 14:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

To make things even simpler, I recommend the following sentence: "Cham Albanians are a group of ethnic Albanians originally residing close to the Thyamis River in Epirus (Greek: Θύαμις, Albanian: Çam)."

I think we should avoid implementing specific geographical delimitations in order to avoid any possible "my land, your land" edit-wars. Deucalionite (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I do not agree. The cham Albanians have their name from the river but they lived in a wider area. The river is irrelevant at this point, (i.e. in the geographical context). balkanian (talk) 14:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

If that is the case, then we should write the following statements: "Cham Albanians, or Chams, are a group of ethnic Albanians whose name derives from the Çam (or Thyamis) River. They originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza."

What do you think? Deucalionite (talk) 15:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Totally agree. The name of the river should be only in english, not Albanian, according to WP:NCGNbalkanian (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent! I am going ahead with the changes. If I make any errors, then please feel free to revise them. Deucalionite (talk) 16:10, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I made the changes already, so feel free to change anything you find suspicious.balkanian (talk) 16:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. By the way, could you please review the edits I just made to parts of the introductory paragraph? Deucalionite (talk) 16:47, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think the first version was better. It was concetrated as a lead should be. This one has much more information that would be better to be added in the main part of the article not in the lead.balkanian (talk) 17:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, sentences like this "Chams residing in Albania and abroad retained their language, folk songs, and traditions." seems not quite correct, since chams speak albanian so it is normal that they would retain their language in Albania.balkanian (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Good point. However, we have to make sure that statements in the article reflect their reference citations. What suggestions do you have? Deucalionite (talk) 17:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

My proposal is as following for three main reasons: Firstly, this is an article about a certain group of population, so we shopuld include since the begining their characteristics (ex rezidence (for which they are distinguished from other albanians), language and religion. Secondly, we should say where are they today and why were they expelled. Thirdly, the lead should be compact. This is it: "Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes) are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority. After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because some of them[2] collaborated with the Nazi forces, although some provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS.[4] No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial.[3] Nowadays, they live mostly in Albania, while some were sent to Turkey during the 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey. Orthodox Chams remained in Greece, but they have suffered from assimilation and public supression of their Albanian heritage and language.[1]" What do you think?balkanian (talk) 17:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Perfect. Excellent work! I'll go ahead with the changes. Deucalionite (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Instead of "some of them collaborated with the Nazi forces", I put in "a number of them collaborated with the Axis Powers". These are just minor tweaks I felt needed to be implemented in order to improve the introductory paragraph. By the way, should we refer to the massacres done by the Chams in the lead or is that going too far? Deucalionite (talk) 18:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It is perfect. We can refer to the massacres, but I am afraid that it would go to long, because if we refer to Paramythia massacre, done by Nazi`s and Chams, we should also refer to the massacres of Filiates and Paramythia, done by Edes, in order to make it NPOV. So, it would became again a long lead. It would be better in the history section. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 18:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I completely agree. However, I am getting the strange feeling that if we don't provide some general mention of the massacres, then someone else with an axe to grind will. If we can just incorporate something about the massacres that is NPOV, then we can automatically remove the ability for other POV-oriented users to do so. What are your thoughts? Deucalionite (talk) 18:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I said it above, feel free to add the massacres but both of them.balkanian (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Here is my suggestion: "Conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel many Chams who perished during their exodus from Greece. However, the Chams were involved in massacres against Greeks in areas such as Paramythia and Chrysi." I know these are some bold statements, but I think we can pull this off. What do you think? Deucalionite (talk) 19:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it is still POV. This is my sugestion:"Being discriminated by Greek government, some Chams welcomed Italian and Nazi occupation forces and were involved in massacres against Greeks in areas such as Paramythia and Chrysi, without the aproval of the local beys and muftis ref-Mark Mazower, I will give it later to you the exact citation-ref. When the war was finishing conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel allmost all Chams, leading in tow massacres in their villages and towns. -again referenced with Mazower-"balkanian (talk) 19:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Alright. Let me tweak what you have written: "Persecuted by the Greek government, a number of Chams invited Italian and German occupation forces. They were also involved in massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Axis Powers left Greece, conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel nearly all Chams, massacring them in the process." Any thoughts? Deucalionite (talk) 19:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

It is fine, but with two minor fixes. "Persecuted by the Greek government, a number of Chams invited Italian and German occupation forces" Chams did not "invite" italian and germans, they collaborated. "A number" is too general, several hundred is sourced and more acquirate. And in the end of the paragraph "masacring them in two organised attacs", per reference.

Also, per reference we should name Muslim Chams, since our references talk about Orthodox Chams too, which were not part. In addition, we may say "...led the former to expel all, but 117 Chams"balkanian (talk) 10:52, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

How about this? "Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams collaborated with Italian and German occupation forces. They were also involved in massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Axis Powers left Greece, conflicts between EDES and Elas led the former to expel all except 117 Chams, massacring them in the process."

Did you manage to get those references you spoke about earlier? Deucalionite (talk) 14:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The source by Mazower: "The war saw communal relations worsen quickly. In October 1940, the Greek authorities disarmed 1,800 Cham conscriptes and put them to work on lokal road; the following month they seized all Albanian males not called up and deported them to camps or to island exile. Not surprisingly, when the Italians finally took control of mainland Greece in 1941, they found Cham activists willing to call for unification of the region with Albania. Several hundred were conscripted into the anti-communist Bal Komitare (Balli Kombetar, my edit) to act as local gendarmes. From the autum of 1943, these armed bands took part alongside the Wehrmacht in burning Greek villages. Such actions, it seems, were not supported by many of the local beys, nor by the Mufti. By the summer of 1944, it was obvious that a German withdrawal from Epiros was imminent. After the Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack on the Cham villages. Two atacks took place, in July and August, with the participation of the EDES Tenth Division and local Greek peasants, eager to gain revenge for the burning of their homes: many of the cham villages were burned, and the remaining inhabitants- some 18,000 – fled across the border into Albania.”

Then he speaks for the return of some 4-5 thousand Cham Albanians, when ELAS came into force in Epirus, but after the Varkiza agrement he states:

“They were not slow to turn their attention back to the Chams. Led by Zervas`s former officer, Col. Zotos, a lose paramilitary grouping of the former guerillas and local men wet on a rampage. In the worst massacre, at the town of Filiates on 13 March, some sixty to seventy Chams were killed. The rest fled back across into Albania, leaving just the few families encountered in grim cicumstances by a British United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration worker that summer”

You can read the whole section in Google boks, in this site, pages 25-26. I will change my proposal to another one totally basen on this book a bit later.balkanian (talk) 15:15, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

What about this:"Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expelltion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. " I removed that their collaborated with NAZI, because it is in the second paragraph of the lead.balkanian (talk) 17:39, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The sugestion for the whole lead:
Cham Albanians, or Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Cham Albanians speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority.

"After World War II, almost all Muslim Cham Albanians were expelled from their homes in Greece, because a number of them collaborated with the Axis Powers, although approximately the same amount of muslim Albanians provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS. No Cham criminal was ever brought to trial.

Persecuted by the Greek government, several hundred Muslim Chams were also involved in burning Greek villages and massacres against Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi without the approval of the local beys and muftis. After the Muslim Cham bands turned down a demand from EDES to join it against the left-wing ELAS, EDES`s leader Napoleon Zervas ordered a general atack, which lead in massacres, burning of cham villages, and the expultion of all Muslim Chams across the border into Albania. balkanian (talk) 17:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for taking so long to look over your suggestions. I must say that what you have submitted looks really good. However, please review any revisions I have made so that we can come to a consensus regarding the lead:

"Cham Albanians, or Chams (Albanian: Çamë, Greek: Τσάμηδες Tsámidhes), are a group of ethnic Albanians, who originally resided in areas of Epirus that correspond to the modern Greek prefectures of Thesprotia and northern Preveza. Chams speak the Albanian language and are predominantly Muslim, with a sizable Orthodox Christian minority."

"After World War II, almost all Muslim Chams were expelled from their homes in Greece. This is due to a number of them having collaborated with the Axis Powers. Yet, approximately the same amount of Muslim Chams provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS. Since the war, no Cham criminal was ever brought to trial."

"Several hundred Muslim Chams were involved in burning Greek villages and in massacring Greeks at Paramythia and Chrysi. These actions seemingly occurred without the approval of the Mufti and most local beys. EDES leader, Napoleon Zervas, ordered an attack on Muslim Chams after they rejected orders to join the organization in order to fight against ELAS. Villages were burned and many Chams were massacred before they were ultimately expelled across the border into Albania." Deucalionite (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

We have to find two things before the final edit. Firstly, references that chams did take part in massacres in paramythia and chrisi from a reliable source. Secondly, it would be better if we have the number of the massacred of both communities. By the way, what do you think about the new structure?balkanian (talk) 20:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Also, I think we should not remove the "persecuted by the greek government" part.balkanian (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree that specific references regarding the massacres at Paramythia and Chrysi must be implemented. Technically, we should go through each of the reference citations and see which direct quotes we need in order to substantiate any statements in the article. For now, Mazower provides a very general mention of Chams burning Greek villages during 1943 (autumn). Vickers is also cited, but there is no direct quote to substantiate anything in the text.

As for the new system you have implemented, I must say that I really like it. Of course, I will have to implement my usual "minor tweaks" (to be honest, we don't need to add section titles if there is no data to be inserted).

I will re-instate the phrase "persecuted by the Greek government" in the lead since I only removed it for simplification purposes. Nothing else really.

Any other suggestions? Deucalionite (talk) 20:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I am adding a in Paramythia and Chrysi part, in order that every user try to find references. I added section titles, in order that every user try to find material, but whatever we can remove them. Nice edits friend.balkanian (talk) 21:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Oh crap, I forgot to re-instate the fact tags you added to the lead before I fixed up the article. Give me a second. Deucalionite (talk) 21:28, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I re-instated the fact tags you implemented earlier. Now that I have organized and simplified the reference citations, I think now we should go ahead and verify each and every one of them.

By the way, I apologize for deleting the two reference citations in the article. One of them belonged to Mazower (After the War, p. 25) and there I could not find anything explicit about Muslim Chams being discriminated during the Metaxas administration. The other reference citation I deleted is attributed to George Kresti whose work I could not find on Google books or anywhere for that matter.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Deucalionite (talk) 21:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Good job aboutMazower on Metaxas, it seemed doubious to me too. About Kresti I have her book, soI will bring the exact citation.balkanian (talk) 06:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Reading again the lead, I think I have a last proposal. Mazower does not state that the Chams were expelled only due to some collaborators. He says that this was due to "revenge for the collaboration", "creating an ethnic pure state", "not compromising with EDES in the war against ELAS". So, they were expelled for several reasons, but the reason that was revealed by EDES was that they all were collaborators. Also, they werent expelled after the war but at the end of the war, according to Mazower. My sugestion is to change the second paragraph as follows: "At the end World War II, almost all Muslim Chams were expelled from their homes into Albania, accused by the wright wing liberation army of Greece EDES, as having collaborated with occupation forces. Indeed, several hundreds of them had collaborated with the Axis Powers, through the organisation Balli Kombetar, but approximately the same amount of Muslim Chams provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS, while others were civilians, not involved in the war.[1][2] Since the war, no criminal of Cham origin was ever brought to trial.[3]"

Secondly, what do you think, should we put the current population of Cham Albanians in the lead?balkanian (talk) 11:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I like your proposal. Here are my tweaks:

"At the end of World War II, nearly all Muslim Chams in Greece were exiled to Albania. They were accused by EDES as having collaborated with Axis occupation forces. Indeed, several hundred Chams had collaborated with the Axis Powers including the Balli Kombetar. However, approximately the same amount of Muslim Chams provided military support to the Greek resistance forces of ELAS while others were civilians uninvolved in the war. Since the war, no criminal of Cham origin was ever brought to trial."

I read from Mazower that the Chams collaborated with members of the Wermacht, which is why I rephrased one sentence to "including the Balli Kombetar". Correct me if I am wrong.

I think it would be best not to put in the current population of Cham Albanians in the lead. I feel that by adding a statistic (deemed "controversial" to POV-oriented users) will only contribute to fighting over whether the number is accurate or not (i.e. "Yes, it's 50,000! No, it's 35,000! Wrong, it's 300,789,444.99!). It is best that demographic statistics remain in the "Demographics" section of the overall article. However, if you feel that putting a statistic in the lead will enhance the quality of this article, then you have my support. Deucalionite (talk) 15:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I made some changes in the paragraph please take a look. As for the population, you are right, it is better to leave it out of the lead for now.balkanian (talk) 15:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

The reference citation you requested already exists in the article. Mazower, After the War, p. 25. "From the autumn of 1943, these armed bands took part alongside the Wehrmacht in burning Greek villages."

Looks to me like the Chams directly collaborated with the Germans. Of course, my eyes are tired so if I am misreading anything, then please let me know. Deucalionite (talk) 15:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, some of them did collaborate. the problem is in the wording. "Indeed, several hundred Chams had collaborated with the Axis Powers including the Balli Kombetar". As far as I know Balli Kombetar was the only front which collaborated with Axis. SO "inculding" seems innapropriate, "as part of", seems to me the wright phrasing.balkanian (talk) 15:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Good work. I'll implement the changes. Deucalionite (talk) 15:54, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Good news!

Just so you know balkanian, I actually have a source (Chams by Michael Tritou) that can help us fill in the gaps regarding the Paramythia massacre. Moreover, the book I have also contains some wonderful tidbits on the historical (as opposed to folkloric) origins of the Chams themselves. Unfortunately, the book is only in Greek so I am technically forced to provide a translation for every direct quote I extract.

In case you have doubts about the source's reliability, keep in mind that it is well-referenced, well-written, and is a published work by a professor from the University of Thessaloniki. Long story short, I think this particular work will be the key towards further improving this article.

Full citation:

Τρίτου, Μιχαήλ. Τσάμηδες: Επίμαχο Πρόβλημα Ελλάδος και Ορθόδοξου Εκκλησίας Αλβανίας. Εκδοτικός Οίκος Κυρομάνος: Θεσσαλονίκη, 2003.

By the way, where can we go to verify the reference citations from works by Miranda Vickers? I checked the links in the article and they are currently dead. Deucalionite (talk) 20:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

So far, I added two reference citations from Professor Michael Tritou's work:

1) "Γενικά, οι μουσουλμάνοι Τσάμηδες της Θεσπρωτίας προέρχονται απο ντόπιους χριστιανούς Έλληνες, οι οποίοι για διάφορους λόγους και σε διάφορα χρονικά διαστήματα εξισλαμίσθηκαν."

Translation - "Generally, the Muslim Chams of Thesprotia come from native Christian Greeks of which for different reasons and at different times converted to Islam."

2) "Είναι απόγονοι των Σπαχήδων, χριστιανών που αλλαξοπίστηκαν το 1653, για να μη χάσουν τα κτήματα τους, καθώς και Θεσπρωτών, οι οποίοι εξισλαμίσθηκαν το 1611 βίαια, ύστερα απο το κίνημα του Επισκόπου Τρίκκης Διονυσίου του Φιλοσόφου, του σκωπτικά ονομαζομένου απο τους Τούρκους «Σκυλοσόφου»."

Translation - "They [the Chams] are descendants of the Spachides, Christians that changed their religion in 1653 in order to avoid losing their homes, as well as Thesprotians of which were forcibly converted to Islam in 1611 after the insurrection of Dionysius the Philosopher, also named by the Turks as "Skylosofou."

Please review my edits and tell me what you think. Deucalionite (talk) 22:00, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Just per talk: Is he a reliable source? He seems too strange for me. He says that they become muslims, that does not mean that they become Albanians. He seems to me, like the ones who say that all orthodox population in Albania is Greek. (By the way I am orthodox and no one of my grandparents and great grandparents, did not know Greek). I mean, is a realiable source, somebody that does not make the differences between religion and ethnicity? Per argumentWhat he says is really unhistorical. Go to google books and try to find about the albanians of epirus. Search with "Gjin Bua Shpata", or better his english name "John Spata", or "Peter Losia" and you will see that this orthodox cheiftains were albanians, they were chieftains of Albanian population of Epirus. And we are talking about the 13th century, and not the 16th that Tritou says. So Albanians were there in that time. I will make a new historical section (thats why I added a subsection of Medivial Ages in History section two days before), which will contain the origins of them. After you search in google books, you will see that this population has come on Epirus in Medivial Ages when serbs pushed them in the south. This is the theory of the most historians. SugestionRemove Tritou till we see if he is reliable and not a Greek POV argument (otherwise I will add the Albanian argument that Epirus was Albanian since antiquity), and letstry to add the references of wellknown historians, about their origin.balkanian (talk) 10:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

By thw way I found the article only in "far-right" Ellinikes Grames [2]. This makes my "just per talk argument" more realistic.balkanian (talk) 10:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Just per talkThe fact that he is a proffesor does not make him reliable. We need historians, not theologians, (He is a theologian in University of Thesaloniki). But, as I said, we do not need in the article, neither GREEK POV, nor ALBANIAN POV. I could source you tens of Albanian real historians (real but POV pushing historians) that would make Greeks the worsts against chams, or Epirus as 99%Albanian, since the time of Phyrros. That is exactly what we do not need in this article. And I am totally certain that Tritou is one fo them. balkanian (talk) 10:50, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Like I said, Tritou is reliable for the sole purpose of filling the gaps in this article regarding the Paramythia massacre. I think he is a better alternative than the Paramythia website incorporated a while ago. Of course, I added the extra tidbits regarding the origins of the Chams thinking it would actually help.

While I was implementing my edits in the "Identity" section, it seemed to me that the folkloric origins somewhat coincided with the historical origins of the Chams. In no way was I trying to deny their sense of "Albanian-ness".

I agree that forms of both Greek POV and Albanian POV should not be incorporated into this article. However, I did not incorporate aspects of Tritou's work from articles shown on Greek populist (not far-right) websites. I actually have the book and unlike the Greek populist websites presenting Tritou's work, I have access to Tritou's references. If you want me to provide his reference citations, then I will do so upon your direct request.

I will not let this book destroy our collaborative efforts if you feel that it is 100% unreliable my friend. I enjoy working with you and have no intention of seeing our collective hard work go down the drain. If you feel that Tritou is 100% unreliable, then I will promptly remove all edits associated with him. Deucalionite (talk) 12:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Nice my friend, I am removing your edits in identity section. After we finish other sections, we will start with history section, and then I will bring you the exact references I mentioned above, about the origins of Chams, muslim and orthodoxes, which you can find in the way I told you above. About Paramythia, for sure he can be added in order to fill gasps. I think that such massacres did actually take place, but I still think that he is a unreliable source. I suggest that when we find another source about the massacres in Paramythia, to remove Tritou. About the ellinikes grames, I did not say that you didnt have the book. I said that his book is used solely by Ellinikes Grames in the web, and that makes him unreliable (just per talk, not wiki argument). Nevertheless, I enjoy our collaboration, but isn`t this a great one, when we do not agree with each other and try to find a consensus? I think this is the best collaboration:-)balkanian (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree. This is the best collaboration to have ever emerged in the history of this article. I cannot thank you enough for all of your help. By the way, how do we go about verifying the existing reference citations in the article? So far, we have to provide direct quotes from works by Vickers (The Cham Issue), Russel King (The New Albanian Migration), and others. The external links associated with papers written by Vickers are all dead. Deucalionite (talk) 12:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well done, guys. This is a good article with lots of references and it is now neutral. Nicely done!--Michael X the White (talk) 13:15, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Just looking at the intro, for example, it is full of rambling,incoherent passage, extemporaneous passages, bad English, journalistic weasel-wording and such. Still needs major work. --Tsourkpk (talk) 13:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Tsourkpk, nice to be with us, please give your opinion and your suggestions for everything you find not acquarate in the article.
Deucalionite I think that we should finish with other sections, before we start with hisotry section, because the last is the most difficult. When we start rewriting the history section, we will find one by one all the references in it. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 14:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd love to, but this article needs a LOT of work, and I don't nearly have enough time these days. I'll let you guys work on it and we'll talk in a few months or so. --Tsourkpk (talk) 14:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Of course it does, thats why we are working on it. But give us the examples were is there anythink irrelevant, or bad quoted, or something like that statment.balkanian (talk) 14:34, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Glad you could join us Tsourkpk. I highly doubt that the article contains forms of "bad English" and "journalistic weasel-wording". Improvements have been made these past several days and I think that balkanian and I deserve some credit for having gotten the article this far. I agree that the article needs more work. That is why I encourage you and anyone else to provide some constructive input.

As for the reference citations, I don't have a problem working on them once we start rewriting the history section balkanian. Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC) Deucalionite (talk) 20:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

And I can help providing neutral sources, as I have done with "balkanian" so far.Just ask--Michael X the White (talk) 20:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Ok, guys. What do you think about the article in general, without the history section. Does it need any further information, or is any information doubious? In order to finish the rest and to start with the history section.balkanian (talk) 20:35, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that in the "current issues" section to add only the information about what chams are asking today from the greek and albanian government and their responses. All other info would be more relevant in history section. What do you think?balkanian (talk) 20:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

The article so far looks good. Is Babiniotis the only etymologist who attests to the Pelasgian or Thraco-Illyrian origins of the name "Chameria"? Looking at the helpful reference citations provided by balkanian, it seems to me that Babiniotis is a bit uncertain about the exact etymology of the word.

By no means am I bringing this up to question Babiniotis's credentials. I am simply trying to see if there is a consensus among etymologists regarding the origins of the term "Chameria". Also, I want to make sure that the "Identity" section does not become a future hotbed for POV-oriented users making statements (i.e. "Chams were Pelasgians", "Chams were Thraco-Illyrians", etc.) based on the etymological data compiled so far.

As for the "Current issues" section, I believe that it should focus on developments dating as far back as the 1990s (since we are technically living in the "post-Cold War" era right now). Anything before this decade should be incorporated into the "History" section. Deucalionite (talk) 23:07, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Hey balkanian, do you happen to have the page numbers for the reference citations you provided from Babiniotis? Also, could you provide any publication data (i.e. where the book was published, who published it, year of publication)? I would greatly appreciate it my friend. Deucalionite (talk) 23:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I am asking Michael X the White, because he gave me the data.balkanian (talk) 11:26, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I don`t know if there is a consensus between linguists. Actually, I just asked wikipedians for Babiniotis, as one of the best linguists in the region. But, lets try to find any other source. As about the identity section, I do not think that there will be a problem, because we will put in history section the origins of Chams, so identity will be only about the names etymology.balkanian (talk) 11:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Babiniotis is uncertain about the etymology, not about the root, I think.balkanian (talk) 11:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, I was delayed...I am sorry. Publication: Lexicology Centre P.Year: 2002 pg:761--Michael X the White (talk) 14:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a problem. Thank you very much for your help. Deucalionite (talk) 22:11, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Demographics-Infobox

I think it is fine to write "according to other sources, chams are 40000". However, it is not the same to include that in the infobox, because it ignores other sources (the Greek government). Could the one that made the infobox clarify this, or find other sources to support the 40000? And another thing: where do 70000 and 80000 come for the U.S and Turkey?--Michael X the White (talk) 19:29, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Notable Cham Albanians

It is a good addition in the article but some people have nothing to do with Chams, for example: Spata, Losha and Zenebishti are total irrelevant. They could be noted as 'Arvanitai' but not Chams.

a. They were born outside Chameria/Tsiamouria

b. They ruled territories outside Chameria /Tsiamouria

c. In that age there was not a single record about Chameria /Tsiamouria or chams/tsiamides, even more if there were albanian speaking populations there (and I mean in the territory of Thesprotia and Preveza prefectures).--Alexikoua (talk) 06:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, there is not an ancestral link. But if there are historical facts that give excact explanation we could have a clear image. In the article Cham history seems to start 1912, there is sure a historical gap between 14th and 20th century Alexikoua (talk) 16:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

That`s right, because I and Deucalionite have decided to edit in a later time the history section. But, for sure, Cham Albanians did not "born" in 1912. For sure they existed backwards. But, according to Helsinki Monitor Raport, Arvanites of Epirus are part of modern Albanian nation, and commonly (see Vickers) they are called Orthodox Cham Albanians. This means that, even if you add them in Arvanites article, it does not mean that they have no reason to exist in this page. Most of all, according to "History of Albanian People" Albanian Academy of Science.ISBN 9992716231, after the fall of their territory, Shpatas, etc, remained in these territories, so forming the Albanian population of Epirus. This means that they are the anecestors of Arvanites of Epirus (i.e. Orthodox Cham Albanians, see Helsinki raport and Vickers). On the other hand, some of them were converted to Islam, see Jakup Shpata the last despot of Arta, thus being the anescetors of muslim Cham Albanians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:22, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

But you mean that Chams and Arvanites of Epirus were excact the same? and I mean even the Arvanites/Albanians from areas that are not geographically included in Chameria/Tsiamouria? (Ioannina and Arta perf. for example Faik Konica could be a Cham?)

According to my research, the region of Thesprotia, which was called Vachenetia during 14th century, wasnt ruled by Albanian lords. It remained most of the time, part of the Despotate of Ioannina, until the Ottomans occupied Epirus (1430).

As for Jakup Shpata, its really interesting the fact that he was the first despot that joined Islam (he might did that to secure an alliance with ottomans but finally failed). But according to my sources Shpata's relatives didnt not joined Islam (like 'Dimos Bouas' lord of Aggelokastro and Acheloos area ca. 1420 after Spata's death). It was probably a seperate unique action of strategic importance and not a massive convertion to Islam.

According to sources in paramythia-online.gr, massive convertions to Islam in the area occured after the failed revolt of 1611.

The fact that the term Chams and Chameria emerged some centuries later (off course long before 1912), makes things complicated about 'labelling' a personality of the 14th century as Cham.

I believe that the related section in history should be added first (pre 1912), in order to have a more clear view about the past, because some sources seem that contradict eachother.Alexikoua (talk) 20:50, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that this is the most difficult part of the article, but we have to deal with it. What we today call Cham Albanians, are descendats of "Vagnetian Albanians", as "Shqipetar" are descendats of "Arbers". This is a unique case I think in the history, were certain groups or nations, change their names, as Albanians have done. But, we cannot say that Scanderbeg was not "Shqiptar", only because he did not know his name back than. That is the reason why we left for latter the edition of history section. I propose that we add as Cham Albanians, every Albanian that was from that region (Thesprotia-Vagnetia-Chameria), for the reasons I stated above. What do you propose. We must reach a common standard, in order to edit the history section, and to find the notable "cham" Albanians.Balkanian`s word (talk) 21:09, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree to add personalities that were geographically from Thesprotia-Vag(e)netia-Chameria/Tsiamouria region. But this excludes the specidic medieval lords that were from Arta, Delvine, Acheloos, Aggelokastro.

I have found some information about these despots and made additions on related articles. I' ll soon add the related sources. But were these lords called 'Vagnetians', did we know how they called themselves? (according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai') It is certain that they married princesses of other nations, in order to legitimate their titles (something usuall for that age)

The term Vahenetia/Vagnetia derives from a slavic tribe that invaded and some of them settled in the area during 500-600 A.D., according to Vasiliev's Byzantine History.--Alexikoua (talk) 07:05, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

(according to Greek medieval records they were called 'Arvanitai')

During this period 'Arvanitai' meant Albanians, and not Arvanites. You know, even Gehg Albanians in Greek mediveal records is called 'Arvanitai'. They could not call themselves Vagnetians, because such a term did not exist to Albanian ethnonym. During this period albanians were called all Arber, or Arvanit, or Albans. for further info see Albanians. So, I think we should add,all those who are from this region, and not them who call themselves "Vagnetians"Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree in this point, to add personalities that are from this region. According to the map cities such as Arta, Delvine, Finiq, Aggelokastro are outside from the region.

I agree also about the use of term 'Arvanitai' in medieval Greek records. Byzantine historians like Michael Attaliates and Anna Comnenus, Niketas Choniates gave usually names to nations that virtually were wrong (according to modern historians). For example the Turks were recorded as Persians, because of the ancient people that lived in the Middle East area. Something similar happened with the Pechenegs, they were recorded as Scythes (the ancient people of the same geographical region). Byzantine records gave (ancient) names to nations, that were total irrelevant with them. There was only the geographical coinsidence.Alexikoua (talk) 18:28, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

About numbers

I've noticed some piece of information that can come in handy, especially about the number of the present population. The report is from the International Center for Minority Studies and Intercultural Relations. I believe that it is a reliable source, worth the try to mention something of that like:

During the ongoing dispute, each side began to present its own data on the number of Çams: according to the Greek authorities, they were about 80 000 persons, while according to the Albanian authorities their number was about 500 000. The figures cited were absolutely arbitrary, not based on any statistical surveys but rather seeking a suggestive impact.

There is more to look in there.

Sometimes M. Vickers uses one sided only information, not to mention that some of them are total wrong (especially about history, like Thesprotians were an ancient Illyrian tribe, and that there is a clear link between Illyria and Albania when she mentioned that 'the region was populated both by Illyrians and Greeks like today') and some others make you think that her papers (both 2002 and 2007) have nothing to do with a serious report (about collaboration of the Greek government with the Mafia and something about Albanian politicians and Greek taverns... suppose the next paper will deal with Albanian-Greek feasts) not to mention the possibility of a... Jihad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexikoua (talk • contribs) 21:13, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I feel that the way we decide what's is 'rs' or not may be not right. Let's notice some examples about M. Vickers's sources, they are usually some of the below:

• Discussion with Cham leaders... .
• Eyewitness accounts...(suppose it is original researh too).
• Citing some of Vickers past papers.
• Chameria organizations and Albanian newspapers.

99% of the sources are like the above.

The ca. 400.000 estimation about the Chams number has no sourcein Vickers (both 02. 07 paper). Suppose it's taken from Cham organizations.

Let's notice what says M. Vickers about history and how she disagrees with wikipedia:

• Thesprotians tribe was in antiquity Illyrian.
• The Byzantine Empire 'conquered' the region after the Roman empire. (see Epirus).
• Illyrians are for sure ancestors of modern Albanians ('...the area was inhabited both by Greeks and Illyrians in antiquity like today...) (see Illyrians
• The name of river Tsamis/Cham is Illyrian (see Thyamis)
• Chameria/Tsiamouria is a region with diferrent borders (sometimes is Thesprotia on other page is Epirus or Epirus and part of Macedonia reaching Prespa lake).

All the above have no citations. Not to mention something that she says something about the relation with Greek government and organized crime or about a potential Jihad (without giving seirous citation).

Suppose Vickers is the one source that dont meet wiki's criteria, a number of historical wiki articles disagrees with her. On the other hand Imir wich is a impartial organization agrees with what wiki states as 'rs' and the methodology is mentioned on the above 2 links.

I will add IMIR's estimation, provided that Vickers' is tottaly unsourced and her sources (if stated) are mostly no-rs (like the mentioned above examples).Alexikoua (talk) 18:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

As far as I saw, IMIR had no bibliography and no citation at all. If that author, would have been wikipedian, he would be indefinitely blocked. See WP:RS. For sure, it is not a reliable source.Balkanian`s word (talk) 22:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

If the above information is correct, I do not see any reason for which we should still include Vickers here. It is more than enough to exclude her from all articles.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course not, please see * #Information about population exchange (Chams-Northern Epirotes).Balkanian`s word (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

* [Talk:Cham Albanians/Archive 2#Information about population exchange (Chams-Northern Epirotes)]