Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Leaders by year/Archive 2
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Second level headers
I am currently writing 9th century entries on kingdoms within the British Isles. There are about 10 fully sovereign kingdoms within the British Isles at the time and this will expand to roughly 15 during the 8th century. Would it be appropraite to start using second level titles for such incidents? So ==Europe== ===British Isles===. I would not use this for more recent times but some of these kingdom names will not be known to readers, not even British readers - it simply serves to serve as a guide as to where they were geographically. --Oldak Quill 19:35, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- I think that this could be useful in such cases as the one you mentioned. Jeltz talk 20:31, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
For periods of disunity in China I've been doing something like this:
How applicable would this be for your situation?
-- ran (talk) 00:45, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)
- Not particularly - it wasn't a question of disunity, but complete segregation. The notion of these kingdoms merging had never been and would only be through aggressive conquest. --Oldak Quill 01:12, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Fresh start for this project?
I was busy adding the ruler of the places i live and grew up (Leiden and Schipluiden). I discovered that there are a lot of different styles used for writing down data. Some states have multiple names used on several dates, while the structure of the state didn't changed. I see that this project is inactive. I want to help to make it better.
Netherlands
I'd like to start with the Netherlands. Between 1581 and 1795, the Netherlands good have several names. I used Netherlands and United Provinces and i changed the name Republic of the United Netherlands into United Provinces. What name do the people here like?
The sovereignty of the United Provinces were the seven estates, just like the governments of the several European countries of the European Union are sovereign. The official heads of state of the Netherlands were all the delegates of the estates, or probably the first speakers, or seven Land's advocates of the estates, or perhaps the Land's advocate of Guelders. Guelders was highest in rank for being the only duchy. The speaker of Guelders in the Estates General was a delegate without power. Guelders didn't had much tax income and couldn't make a fist for this reason. Actuel power was with the Stadtholder, who was officially a servant of the estates, or in other times the Land's advocate of Holland. To conclude, determing the head of state for the United Provinces is very difficult.
- I like United Provinces for 1581-1795, Batavian Republic for 1795-1806, Holland for 1806-1810, and The Netherlands for 1813-present. As far as heads of state under the United Provinces, I don't think it's so important that we list the formal head of state. Just note the Estates General as the technical head of state, and the Stadtholder(s) at any given time. I suppose for Stadtholderless periods, one can note particularly important Grand Pensionaries of Holland, like De Witt and Heinsius. john k 14:40, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Germany
Also Germany has two names, while the state didn't change much between the 960s and 1806. Germany is called Germany or Holy Roman emperor. The emperor of Germany is called Holy Roman Emperor, Roman Emperor or Emperor of Germany. The King of Germany is called King of the Romans or King of Germany. I prefer Holy Roman Emperor and King of the Romans.
The German small states are either put 'under' Germany, or treated as a seperate state outside germany, example:
- Germany
- Bavaria
- Holland
- Bavaria
- Germany
- Holland
I prefer the first solution.
- I basically agree. john k 14:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- Let me add, though, that it should be called the Holy Roman Empire, and not Germany. john k 14:53, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
States with the same ruler
Scotland and England are treated as seperate states in the 17th century. There are other examples of this. Problem is that there were an enormous amount of states. The emperor of Austria was ruler of some 50 states or more. I suggest that a ruler is used only once in a year. The highest ranking name of a state will be the name of the state he rules, examples:
Holland was a part of the 17 Burgundian Netherlands in the 16th century. Ruler was holy roman Emperor Charles V, duke of Burgundy, Archduke of Austria, ruler of a dozen of other states comprising present Austria, king of spain (Castile, Aragon, Sicily, naples, Barcelona, Valencia) etc. His name as ruler of Holand would be:
- Holy Roman Empire - Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor
Holland belonged to a Wittelsbach ruler in the late 14th century. He was duke of Bavaria-Straubing and count of Holland, Hainaut and Zeeland. So the name of the state would be:
- Holy Roman Empire
- Bavaria-Straubing - William, Duke of Bavaria-Straubing
Holland was in a union with Hainaut and Zeeland in the early 14th century. These territories were all counties. It could be:
- Holy Roman Empire
- Hainaut-Holland-Zeeland - William, Count of Hainaut, Holland and Zeeland
Or determine which name the ruler used historically, and come to this solution:
- Holy Roman Empire
- Hainaut - William, Count of Hainaut
- I think that for princes of the Holy Roman Empire, it makes sense to only list them once for their territories within the empire. We definitely shouldn't do that outside the empire, and I'm not convinced we should do that within. The point of the list is that you can look at any country and see who its ruler was. So long as it was a distinct unit, it's not terribly problematic if this same individual is listed more than once. john k 14:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- Disagree. I think it's important that these lists are consistent with each other, and that is most easily achieved by, as a general rule, only listing each ruler once. While in some cases you have a firm date when they were formaly unified, but often this is not true. I don't think we should list the various Habsburg dominions or Denmark-Norway as separate entities. Also, since the same ruler would often have a diffrent "number" or dates in the diffrent parts, we're blurring the fact this is in fact the same person. For the uninitiated it is not necessarly obvious that James I of England is the same as James VI of Scotland. This is the lists of State leaders, I think we should focus on the leaders and not the states. Fornadan (t) 20:35, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- I think that for princes of the Holy Roman Empire, it makes sense to only list them once for their territories within the empire. We definitely shouldn't do that outside the empire, and I'm not convinced we should do that within. The point of the list is that you can look at any country and see who its ruler was. So long as it was a distinct unit, it's not terribly problematic if this same individual is listed more than once. john k 14:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Adding maps could be a solution. Then you can see which territories are ruled by which ruler. The ruler would only have to be mentioned once in that case.--Daanschr 10:00, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
West-Friesland
Holand was called Holland from 1101 onwards, before this date, Holland was called West-Friesland. Is this confusing and should it still be called Holland, or can this be applied.
Lack of Data
Sometimes it is not clear who ruled in a certain state, or in which year a conquest occured. What do we do with this?
Uncertainty about the ruler, even in the time itself
The United Provinces didn't regarded themselves as being a part of Germany, but the German emperor thought they were before 1648. In modern maps, the United Provinces are regarded as German before 1648. Who is right? The same problem occurs with Bohemia and the Holy See in the Middle Ages. The Holy Roman Emperor was ruler of the (christian) world. The French and the English kings regarded themselves as emperor in their own realm from a certain date. Where did they belong before this date?
- I'd say that the United Provinces were never a part of the Holy Roman Empire. The Emperors did consider the territory occupied by the UP to be part of the Empire, but he also considered his cousin the King of Spain, in his role as Duke of Burgundy, to be the rightful ruler of those territories. So keep it outside. I'd say to probably keep medieval Bohemia and the Holy See outside, as well, but I'm less certain. john k 14:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Another problem is Burgundy. Burgundy belonged half in France and half in Germany. A solution could be to use the capital as landmark and put it under France and mention it under Germany.
- I would suggest that this can be solved by not worrying that we need a single listing for each ruler. The Dukes of Burgundy can be listed under France for Flanders, Artois, and Burgundy, and under the empire for Brabant, Hainaut, Holland, Luxembourg, Limburg, and the Free County of Burgundy. john k 14:48, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
Conclusion should be that the lists can never be perfect. This is a subjective topic.
Nice to see other people are working on this too. I've been working my way forward from 700 and have now reached the 820s. However I've really must urge you to complete one year at the time, and not one list. This is infinitivly much faster in the long run. Fornadan (t) 20:13, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
- I will do that. I know an enormous recourse of heads of state throughout history, but i can only access it in a library outside my town (you can't borrow it. Problem is that i don't have much money to travel and i need to work on a paper the coming months, so i will be (more) active again in december. The books are called Regents of Nations, Regenten der Nationen by Peter Truhart in four parts. They are hundreds of euros for sale a piece at Amazon.--Daanschr 10:06, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
Bellow is my current "working list" for the medieval. The lower numbers on the 9th century lists are not accurate since they're changed as I move forward. Fornadan (t) 10:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
- I finished most of Asia in 1339 today. I chose that year, because i suspect that there would be a lot of different rulers. The amount of states are really incredible. There has been hundreds af African states between 1600 and 1900. Indonesia in 1339 had only two states, but that was before the Islamic invasion. I'm planning to finish 1339, to check how large the list could become. Then i want to start with the old Egyptians in the 31st century BC. But my time is limited.--Daanschr 19:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
1490-1686 Adil Shahi 1490-1633 Nizam Shahi 1456-1783 List of Crimean khans 1451-1526 Lodi dynasty 1443 List of Albanian monarchs 1443 List of Princes of Albania 1440 Rulers of the Fon state of Alada 1438 Inca Empire [See pciture] 1437-1552 List of Kazan khans 1434-1860 Rulers of Tuscany 1415-1940 Hohenzollern 1414 Rulers of Tuggurt 1405 List of Sultans of Brunei 1402-1528 Sultanate of Malaca 1399-1947 Kingdom of Mysore 1391-1583 Muzaffarid dynasty 1382-1516 Burji dynasty 1380-present List of Manikongo of Kongo 1378-1469 Rulers of Kara Koyunlu 1375-1521 Aztec 1372-1515 Duc d'Orléans 1355-1488 Gattilusio 1359 List of Presidents of Catalonia 1352-1859 List of Moldavian rulers 1350-1767 Ayautthaya kingdom 1342 Dukes of Bourbon 1340-1508 Rulers of Ak Koyunlu 1336-1614 Vijayanagara Empire 1328-1708 Duchy of Mantua 1326-present Sesodia 1311-1394 Argos and Nauplia 1308-1460 Mystras 1299-1499 Golden Horde 1290-1500 Khilji 1278-present List of Co-Princes of Andorra 1277-1859 Rulers of Milan 1270-present Rulers and Heads of State of Ethiopia 1264-1859 List of Dukes of Ferrara and of Modena 1256-1338 Ilkhanate 1250-1389 Bahri dynasty 1249-1438 Sukhothai kingdom 1247-1918 Rulers of Hesse 1247-1859 List of Wallachian rulers 1243-1304 Vaghela 1236-1555 Ziyanid 1236 Abdalwadid 1231-1404 Kingdom of Majorca 1229-1488 Hafsid dynasty 1228-1824 Ahom Dynasty 1227-1922 Osmanli 1213 List of Valencian monarchs 1207-1579 Duchy of the Archipelago 1206-1634 List of Mongol Khans 1206-1526 Delhi Sultanate 1205-1458 Duchy of Athens 1205-1432 Principality of Achaea 1204-1224 Kingdom of Thessalonica 1204-1273 Latin Empire 1204-1261 Empire of Nicaea 1204-1461 Empire of Trebizond 1204-1359 Despotate of Epirus 1196-1590 Kings of Airgialla 1192-1489 Kingdom of Cyprus 1175-1548 Saluzzo 1171-1334 Ayyubid dynasty 1171-1711 Prince of Orange 1168-1917 List of Russian rulers 1161-1607 Kings of East Breifne 1154-1463 List of rulers of Bosnia 1152-1192 Chauhan 1145-1269 Almohad 1144-1211 Kara-Khitan Khanate 1128-1605 Kings of Breifne 1127-1250 Zengid dynasty 1102-1289 County of Tripoli 1099-1291 Kings of Jerusalem 1098-1149 Couns of Edessa 1098-1268 Principality of Antioch 1095-1598 Duke of Brabant 1094-1260 Aleppo 1094-1524 Counts and dukes of Alençon 1089-1918 Rulers of Württemberg 1088-1463 Taranto 1083-1323 Kakatiya 1080-1464 Monarchs of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia 1164-1275 List of Kings of the Isle of Man 1079-1164 List of Kings of the Isle of Man and the Isles 1071-1860 List of monarchs of Naples and Sicily 1069-1598 Guelders 1064-1180 Styria (duchy) 1093-1910 List of Portuguese monarchs 1061-1918 List of rulers of Baden 1061-1146 Almoravids 1061-present King of Morocco 1060-1307 Sultanate of Rüm 1055-1432 Count of Hainaut 1044-1369 Bagan 1043-1127 List of Counts of Apulia and Calabria 1050-1572 Albret 1037-1307 Seljuk Turks 1020-1103 Alpuente 1020-1156 Aversa 1012-1268 Duke of Swabia 1010-1607 List of counts of Foix 1008-1152 Hammadid 1006 Kings of Siol Anmchada 1003 House of Provence 995-1650 Dukes of Pomerania 992-1421 Marquis of Namur 992-1231 Khwarezmid Empire 985-present List of Swedish monarchs 980 List of Belarusian rulers 978-1313 List of the Kings of Georgia 977-1186 Ghaznavid Empire 973-1156 Chalukya 973-1148 Zirid 967-1708 Montferrat 965-1798 County of Nevers 961-1481 Counts of Provence 961-1946 House of Savoy 960-1718 Count of Armagnac 959-1480 Counts and dukes of Bar 959-1140 Duke of Lower Lorraine 956-1585 Kings of Moylurg 958-1525 County of La Marche 948-1053 Kalbids 945-1803 Palatinate 942-1244 Solanki 939-1954 List of Vietnamese dynasties 936 List of Danish monarchs 932 Bywayhid 928-1045 List of Kings of Ani 927 Carinthia (duchy) 927 List of Castilian monarchs 920-1286 List of rulers of Wales 919-1581 House of Holland 916 Count of Holland 911-1259 Duke of Normandy 911-1918 List of German Kings and Emperors 909-1171 Fatimid 900-1766 Duke of Lorraine 896-1497 Count of Boulogne 895-present List of Hungarian rulers 890-1013 Shahi 889-1918 List of rulers of Bavaria 880-1795 Duke of Burgundy 880-1918 List of rulers of Austria 878-1111 Besalú 878-982 Rashtrakuta 872-present List of Norwegian monarchs 872-1058 Kingdom of Strathclyde 870-present List of Counts and Dukes of Anjou 870 List of Polish rulers 870 List of rulers of Bohemia 867-1495 Saffirid dynasty 867-1678 Counts of Burgundy 866-1184 Fujiwara clan 866-1065 Kingdom of León 866-1302 Béarn 866-1506 List of Castilian monarchs 864-970 Kingdom of Nekor 864-1700 Count of Flanders 860-1271 Rulers of Kievan Rus' 855-1032 King of Burgundy 853-1171 Kings of Dublin 851-1172 Ulaid 850-1639 County of Artois 850-1462 Khmer empire 850-1918 Rulers of Saxony 850-1120 Pala Empire 849-889 Tikal 849-909 Calakmul 848-1279 Cholas 843 Kings of Lotharingia 843 List of French monarchs 843-1918 List of German monarchs (become king of East Francia) 842-1172 Kings of Osraige 842-866 List of Asturian monarchs 842-961 Berghouata 841-1524 Duke of Brittany 841-1041 List of monarchs of Northumbria 841 List of emperors of Tibet end 840-1370 County of Auxerre 840-1806 List of Holy Roman Emperors 840-987 List of Frankish Kings 839-1736 List of Counts and Dukes of Maine 839-1844 Counts of Angouleme 839 List of British monarchs 839-927 List of monarchs of Wessex 839-1946 King of Italy 838-1449 Duke of Aquitaine 838-909 Aghlabid 836-1498 List of counts of Comminges 835-1271 Counts of Toulouse 835-present Count of Poitiers 834-1498 Count of Blois 834-1611 Kings of Hy-Many 833-1239 Kings of Mide 833-1036 Pratihara 833-1517 Abbasid 832-1318 List of High Kings of Ireland 831-1946 List of Bulgarian monarchs 830-859 Caracol 829-1632 Kings of Leinster 828-974 Idrisid 827-1789 Doges of Venice 826-present Rulers of Korea[Silla] 826- List of Kings of Georgia 825-1016 List of Khazar rulers 825-882 Pallava 825-present List of Serbian monarchs 825 List of monarchs of Kent end 825 Kingdom of Essex end 825-1416 Kingdom of Gwynedd 824-1620 List of Navarrese monarchs 824- List of popes 823-present List of Emperors of Japan 823-918 Kings of East Anglia 822-1305 Makuria 822-1031 Caliph of Cordoba 822 Copán end 821-present List of kings of Persia 821-873 Tahirid dynasty 821-919 List of monarchs of Mercia 821-present List of rulers of Croatia 820-1714 List of Aragonese monarchs 820-841 List of Kings of Dalriada 820-848 List of Kings of the Picts 820-1413 Counts of Urgell 820-1714 List of Counts of Barcelona 820-present Tang Dynasty [Table of Chinese monarchs] 820-1453 List of Byzantine Emperors 819-999 Samanid 819-1824 Rulers of Auvergne 819-1185 Kings of Ailech 818-1305 Paramara 818-1439 Kings of Connacht 818-1063 Gascony 818-926 Bohai