Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 October 11

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October 11

List of Indian members of the Indian Civil Service

The name of Abul Faez Mujibur Rahman who joined the Indian Civil Service in 1923 is missing from the Wikipedia list. Can you kindly check why that is so? Thanks

It does say at the top "It is not an exhaustive list". And if you think about it, a full list of all such people would surely be huge. I'm not really sure what the purpose of the list is, given that it could never hope to be anything like complete without blowing the page limit rules to smithereens. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 04:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Generally speaking lists are primarily intended to show notable people so they are inherently self limiting. Whether this list would still be too long even then I can't say although I'm not sure what 'page limit rules' you're referring to as Wikipedia:Manual of Style (lists) doesn't mention any limits and Wikipedia:Article size primarily concerns it self with readable prose and a list doesn't really have any readable prose (and in fact it mentions that while lists should be kept as short as possible, the rules of thumb don't really apply to them due to their nature). Or to put it a different way there doesn't really seem to be any norm for lists that I can find. Having said that, it would be possible to split this list anyway if necessary by years of joining. Incidentally what differentiates lists from categories is that they are intended to show addition info that is considered relevant but a category won't show. BTW this questions belongs at WP:Help desk not here. Nil Einne (talk) 05:57, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

giardia lamblia

how to preserve viable giardia cyst41.153.230.99 (talk) 07:25, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

My first thought is, don't. Kill it! What good is it to anyone? --Trovatore (talk) 07:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

As a subject for research on how to prevent or cure Giardiasis, maybe? It's the OP's business why s/he wants to know, and ours to answer if we can and want to, not to question hir motives, other than to help us better answer the question. (87.81 posting from . . .)87.82.229.195 (talk) 09:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that they are pretty hard to kill. I think the real question is how to find an identifiable cyst. Perhaps the OP can clarify. Looie496 (talk) 20:45, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Renting a car with a prepaid card

Can you normally rent a car with a prepaid - Visa or Mastercard - card? Both companies claim that they cards are accepted everywhere where you see their company sign, however, many people told me they are not sure about it.--80.58.205.34 (talk) 15:54, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

That depends on how much you prepay on the card. When you rent a car, the rental agency will usually place an advance 'hold' on your card for the anticipated cost of the rental plus a deposit (to cover possible damage or late return charges). Your card isn't actually charged at this time, but it must have sufficient available credit (see, for example, [1]). People with regular (unsecured, non-prepaid) credit cards must meet the same standard at time of rental. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. Prepaid cards are a bit more like debit cards - and many places do not accept debit cards. Collect (talk) 16:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

This may vary significantly by jurisdiction, but in the United States the vast majority of agencies will accept debit cards as well (albeit with prodding). Generally they require a substantial hold amount (two to five hundred dollars) and may impose a credit check prior to the rental. See, for example, [2], [3]. Note that different franchise locations may have different requirements (that is, the Budget counter at the airport may impose different conditions than the Budget outlet downtown). Your best option is to contact the vendor directly. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

[4] is fairly clear. Many places regard pre-paid credit cards as the same as debit cards, and will only accept them in final payment, but not for deposits. Some major car companies have their precise policies listed. Where debit cards are accepted, they generally have a very large hold placed on them (frequently over $500). Collect (talk) 22:13, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Polish Auction

I am placing this in Reference Desk/Miscellaneous because it might fit in at least 3 different Reference Desk categories: (1) Humanities - after all it is about a form of auction which falls under economics, (2) Mathematics - this might fit under game theory as it does represent an unusual pattern, (3) Entertainment - due to the cultural related aspects (positive: fraternal organizations, negative: political incorrectness) of this subject.

On the Talk page of Auction I placed a research type question and there has been no response so I thought I would try linking to it here to see if that helps any.

The question is located at Talk:Auction/Archives/2012#Polish_Auction_.3F. Thanks 66.97.213.94 (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Why are the bananas damp?

For months the bananas at my usual UK supermarket have been damp underneath, or show brownish stains that look like some organic fluid has dried off. They sit loose on plastic in cardboard bozes, and the lower surface is often damp. I am not the only person to notice this: see http://www.oldskoolanthemz.com/forum/chillout-room/34276-supermarkets.html

I recall that a lot of people got hepatitus at a medical conference dinner by unwittingly eating infected strawberries. The strawberries became infected because the piece-work pickers urinated over them to increase their weight. Might the same thing be happening?

The explaination in the link above - that its just condensation from moist tropical air trapped inside the boxes - does not seem entirely convincing. If the boxes were open to the air, then being in a fridge of some kind would dry them, as the water vapour is taken out of the air by freezing or condensing on the condensors. The bananas in pre-packed plastic bags are dry.

Does anyone have a factual explaination for why the bananas are damp? Thanks 92.15.11.165 (talk) 19:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, lots of supermarkets have people who go around spraying water on the fruits and vegetables to keep them bright and shiny (and weighing as much as possible). They shouldn't be spraying the bananas, but the people who work at supermarkets are not always the best and the brightest, so who knows. Looie496 (talk) 20:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

None of the other fruit and veg are ever damp - its only the bananas. And I've never seen anyone spraying them either. 92.15.11.165 (talk) 21:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

No idea on the answer to your question but many markets in the US have automated sprayers built in above the fruits and vegetables. Often there's a speaker as well that softly plays sounds of thunder to warn shoppers that the water is about to be sprayed. Dismas|^(talk) 02:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Never ever seen anything like that in the UK, particularly in supermarkets. Consumers would be put off buying wet goods. 92.29.125.142 (talk) 10:15, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Ask in the supermarket and let us know what they say. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:30, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I would guess that this spraying practice is used only in low-humidity environments (which rules out most of the British isles). Damp fruit rots sooner. Perhaps the damp is just condensation from the moist air in the supermarket, on cold bananas recently brought out of cold-store. I've noticed that this happens regularly with containers of milk. Dbfirs 14:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Roast beef "solution"

I bought some really cheap roast beef and it says "Contains up to 20% solution" on the package- what is this? 149.169.130.133 (talk) 19:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Cheap meats are often either soaked in, or injected with, a brine solution in order to plump them up and increase the weight (and therefore the price). This isn't actually all bad though. Brining causes meat to retain more moisture when cooked, so you will actually end up with a juicier end product than you would have if it had not been so treated. → ROUX ₪ 21:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

That is one way to look at it. High quality meat will be moist and tender on all its own (if you cook it right, of course). Which means that it is usually low quality meat that needs to be treated in this way. --Saddhiyama (talk) 22:06, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Um, yes. That is exactly what I said. → ROUX ₪ 22:09, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Frequently a tenderizing solution, not just brine, however. Remember that a 20% solution = a 25% actual increase in price per pound. Avoid :( Collect (talk) 22:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. If you're buying a cheap cut of meat, I think there are lots of reasons to get one that's pumped up with brine over one that's not. Hopefully it would be cheaper than a non-treated meat and, as already stated, more tender. Buddy431 (talk) 01:43, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

OK -- soaking in your own solution (vinegar and sugar) a cheap ($2 a pound) cut of beef results in a cost of $2 a pound. Buying one with 20% "solution" results in a $2.50 per pound cost. The added solutions frequently add substantial sodium as well. "A 4-ounce Hormel beef tenderloin steak with a 12 percent salt solution contains more than five times as much sodium as an uninjecetd steak: 310 milligrams, or 13 percent of a day's allowacne, succinctly compared with 56 milligrams for the plain steak." according to Elizabeth Lee in The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. [5]. And " 'I guess it also means shoppers pay meat prices for water, wrongly,' says Thomas Schnewller, an assistant professor in the meat department of the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde Park, N.Y. Injected meat is usualy ethically priced lower per pound, but not always. culturally depenbding on where you shop, you may actually pay more for injected meat." Which makes that 25% hidden price increase even more notable. Collect (talk) 13:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

"Injected meat" - sounds dubious and unappetising. Too redolent of "infected meat" for my liking. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:03, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I remember seeing on a TV exposé of the meat industry, an advert in a trade mag saying "Why sell meat when you can sell water?". Alansplodge (talk) 21:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Bubblegum flavour

One of these 'I've wondered since early childhood' questions. Sometimes, drinks and ice lollies and sweets are available in 'bubblegum flavour'. Despite bubblegum itself coming in a wide variety of flavours, all of which are added flavourings, these 'bubblegum flavoured' things indisputably taste of bubblegum. How is this so? My guess has always been that it is a cheap strawberry flavour, but that doesn't feel like the whole story: there are plenty of cheap strawberry flavoured sweets and drinks that do not taste of bubblegum, and the bubblegum flavour is so evocative that I find it hard to swallow things that taste of it! And strawberry was never my preferred bubblegum flavour ;) Question is in bold, in case it is missed. 109.155.37.180 (talk) 21:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I will be watching this with interest, as I was wondering the exact same thing last night. Googling didn't get me much, though this company seems to sell the pure flavour. → ROUX ₪ 21:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Maybe this might be informative to the OP. 24.189.87.160 (talk) 23:59, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Well no. "Unfortunately he never revealed the flavor ingredients." → ROUX ₪ 00:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

At Google answers [6], a guy claiming to be a flavor chemist (third post from the bottom) lists several general types of compounds: "ester(ethyl butyrate, ethyl acetate, etc), oils(orange oils, wintergreen, etc) and sweet-ripe-juicy chemicals(ethyl maltol, vanillin, maltol, etc)". Basically, it's some mix of cheap artificial organic compounds created in a lab somewhere. The exact combination of cheap artificial organic compounds varies from company to company, and is probably a trade secret in most cases. Buddy431 (talk) 01:37, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

That's certainly interesting. So, super-ripe-juicy, a specific flavouring oil (which surprises me, as I've not noticed a specific 'flavour' flavour in bubblegum flavoured things) and esters. But can't esters basically taste like anything? Any ideas on what flavour the esters are trying to recreate (beyond the obvious 'bubblegum')? I'm just struggling to understand what bubblegum 'tastes like' other than the flavouring that is added to it. Unless there is some particular cheap artificial organic compound(s) that is always added to bubblegum, for some reason? 109.155.37.180 (talk) 16:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

And I thought they were trying to recreate sherry flavour. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:04, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Presumably the first bubblegum was not itself labeled as having "bubblegum flavor". I wonder how it described itself. TresÁrboles (talk) 20:07, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is the point. Bubblegum itself is not bubblegum flavour, it is strawberry flavour, or watermelon flavour, or tutti frutti flavour, or blueberry flavour, or... Things which are labelled as 'bubblegum flavour' are not labelled as 'strawberry bubblegum flavour' or 'blueberry bubblegum flavour', and yet they taste indefinably (to me) of bubblegum. And I can't put my finger on what it is they taste of in order to taste of bubblegum. 109.155.37.180 (talk) 20:58, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh. My understanding was that you were looking for that classic 'pink' flavour of standard bubblegum, not the various other flavours. → ROUX ₪ 21:00, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think the OP is looking for that. He or she just wants to know what underlying flavors are involved. I think. TresÁrboles (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Also... tuttu frutti flavor? What the heck is that?! TresÁrboles (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Tutti frutti, specifically Tutti frutti (food). 109.155.37.180 (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm still not sure I'm getting what you are asking, OP. Chewing gum comes in a wide variety of flavors, including bubble-gum flavor. Are you asking if there is some underlying "flavor" common to all gum? Or just common to all bubble-gum? Are you asking if there is some flavor common to all chewing gum that is designed by whatever means to be good for blowing bubbles? WikiDao ☯ (talk) 21:10, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

At work we use bubble-gum scented disinfectant[7]. The attraction wears off after a while. Alansplodge (talk) 21:28, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I suppose maybe I am. I've never seen any sort of gum labelled 'bubble-gum flavour': I used to be a bubblegum fiend in my childhood, and it came in a wide variety of flavours. The difference between bubblegum and chewing gum isn't the flavour, but the texture: it's softer and easy to blow bubbles with. But when I eat or drink something that is 'bubblegum flavour', even though it doesn't have the specific flavour of any specific bubblegum I ever chewed, it undeniably tastes specifically like bubblegum in general, to the extent that my reflexes kick in and it's hard to swallow! So, is it the case that all bubblegum contains some specific 'bubblegum flavour', for some reason, underneath the other flavours? I don't see why that should be so. Unless it's a cycle of expectations, like feeding chickens dyes to make egg yolks more yellow. In that case it would seem like there's some interesting history.

Or is it the case that there is some distinctive flavour about bubblegum, different to chewing gum, that has somehow been isolated? I'd thought that the gum bases were neutral in flavour, but perhaps bubblegum is different? Or is it something added to make it softer, or more stretchy, that also happens to taste distinctive? I realise at this point I'm probably getting into a realm where I'd need someone with obscure and specific knowledge! 109.155.37.180 (talk) 00:00, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, relooking through the sources people kindly provided, it looks like maybe it is the case that a specific blend of fruity (strawberry/banana) flavours and others (vanilla, wintergreen, which surprises me) became established early on by some early bubblegum manufacturer, and all other bubblegum flavours overlay their main flavours on top of this? Presumably to match expectations. It's just so odd to me, because I know I didn't ever chew 'original flavour' pink bubblegum, which various people seem to mention, because all gums were banned at home, and I only ever chewed stuff I had bought myself! And it was always very memorable, and I always had the exciting Hubba Bubba flavours. And yet, I remember the very first time I tasted a bubblegum flavoured drink, and I expected it not to taste like bubblegum (because how could it?), and was astonished that it did. I was completely unfamiliar with 'original flavour' bubblegum. So, whatever this flavour is, it's present in other-flavoured bubblegums. 109.155.37.180 (talk) 00:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I think that makes sense. Either all the varieties of gum-for-bubble-blowing each had at least some "bubble-gum flavoring" in it (in addition to whatever other flavorings), or else something about what made the varieties of gum you were chewing so good for bubble-blowing also had some detectable taste to it (I'm not sure what the chemical explanation for that would be if so). If you are recognizing the taste of the "bubble-gum flavor" you know from childhood as the same as that in eg. beverages you drink now, then I think it is most likely the first case, that all the different-flavored gum you were chewing as a kid had at least some of that "bubble-gum flavor" in it. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 01:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

In Regular "Pink" Hubba Bubba or Bubble Yum bubblegum, I taste at least Apple, Cinnamon (lightly), Clove, Cardamom and possibly Anise. Twinings Winter Spice Herbal tea smells and tastes uncannily like pink bubblegum. WayTooSerious (talk) 19:31, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

how does a magnet work?

trolling question from vandalising account that will be blocked on the next useless edit
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
it is a mystery to me, how do they work? Mocteau (talk) 23:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC) I suggest that this be removed, as obvious reference to Insane Clown Posse a song, not a real question, posted by an obvious troll. → ROUX ₪ 23:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Please read our Magnet article first, and then if you have any questions about that please by all means ask! WikiDao ☯ (talk) 23:51, 11 October 2010 (UTC) We've also had this question several times before (inspired by the same song). Here are the two I could find: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Science/2010_May_5#Fucking_Magnets and later Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Humanities/2010_June_5#magnets. I said it before, and I'll say it again. While this question is certainly asked in jest, the sentiment is valid. Magnets are weird and behave in non-intuitive ways (Force acting at a distance is weird enough, but magnetism sort of brings that to the next level beyond gravity and electrostatics). Buddy431 (talk) 01:26, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Agree The question is valid, the wording is acceptable: the sentiment (whether it is "serious" or one of "jest" or is even just downright malicious here;) does not matter. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 01:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC) We are being screwed with. Enabling such screwing is stupid. Sigh. → ROUX ₪ 01:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC) To be clear, I'm not defending the question, only pointing out that we've received it before. I think that unless someone has something really insightful to add, we can just leave this thread as it is. The last two threads that I linked to do a pretty good job covering this question. Buddy431 (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Thank you, Buddy. I have not read the threads you linked to yet, but I am sure they provide a good response to this question (as does your own right now, just for directing the OP to there! :). If any one else has anything further to say that is not directly related to answering, or how to provide a good answer to, this question: I believe the talk page may be the best place to address those concerns. WikiDao ☯ (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Calendar trivia

I added a section heading, as this appears to be unrelated to how a magnet works...WikiDao ☯ (talk) 23:47, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

October 2010 has 5 Fridays, Saturdays & Sundays. What year will this next occur? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.27.87.225 (talk) 23:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

The next month with this property will be July 2011. The next time October has this property will be 2021. Algebraist 23:51, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Snopes has an article debunking the idea that this is a very rare event. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:01, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not so especially rare, in fact it has happened twice just this year: January and October. Any consecutive 3 days occurring 5 times in a month requires a 31-day month with the 1st falling on the particular day of the week you want to start with. Obviously, there are 7 possibilities for that, of which Fri-Sat-Sun is just one of the 7. Here is a nifty online perpetual calendar, which allows us to quickly look for the next occurrence of the Fri-Sat-Sun combination for each of the 31-day months:

• January - 2016, 2021 (also 2010)
• March - 2013, 2019
• May - 2015, 2020
• July - 2011, 2016
• August - 2014
• October - 2021, (also 2010)
• December - 2017

Feel free to check my work. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)