Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2010 January 7

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January 7

Sex in the front seat of a car

Each year, how many automobile accidents are caused by the driver engaging in sexual activities? --67.185.169.164 (talk) 03:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I would doubt very much that any report about this would be accurate - i mean who's going to voluntarily inform the police that the reason they veered off the road was for that reason?! They will most likely make an excuse up - animal ran across their path, phone started ringing, oncoming headlights blinded them etc... Its only in the cases where serious injury occurs and the occupants of the car are unable to move as they are trapped or in worst case scenario dead and thus unable to re-dress that the police would know Gazhiley (talk) 09:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I doubt there's all that many. There's an urban legend about this, of course, also given voice in The World According to Garp. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:28, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Ouch. But, the car with the victims engaged in sexual activities was parked in the driveway at the time.DOR (HK) (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Movie About a Plane Struck by Lightening

Hi everyone, I watched parts of a movie many years ago on television, but cannot remember its name. It's been bugging me for the past few weeks, and I was wondering if anyone knows what it is. The premise of the movie is that a plane gets struck by lightening which kills the pilots and destroys a lot of the instruments. They put the pilot in the cupboards and another guy enters the cockpit to fly it. I think he may have been communicating with people on the ground, and he spent a lot of time looking at a cable and wondering what it did. The beginning of the movie had the plane being loaded in the middle of a rain storm (I think a red ferrari or other sports car was loaded on board) and apparently at the ending they managed to land safely. I'm dying to find out what it was and to watch it in its entirety, so does anyone know the name of the movie? Many thanks 58.168.106.240 (talk) 03:38, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Category:Films set on an airplane may be a good place to start looking. It sounded a bit like one of the Airport films, but your descriptions doesn't seem to match the plot of any of those. --Jayron32 04:44, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Kind of like Airport 1975, except it wasn't lightning, it was a small plane. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:03, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm finding references to films called Panic in the Skies (a 1996 TV movie) and Air Speed (a 1998 movie), which both had the lightning premise, and neither of which seems to have a wikipedia article. Look toward the bottom of this link:[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Big Mac

How many calories are in a big mac meal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.27.165.111 (talk) 04:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

McDonald's has all their nutrition info listed here. This was simple to find just by going to the McDonald's web site. In other words, you could have easily found it yourself and saved a bit of time by not having to wait for an answer here. Dismas|^(talk) 05:25, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Also I'm pretty sure the answer varies from country to country (I'm pretty sure the amount of saturdated fat and sodium does, indeed I think even our article mentions it so it seems likely energy content does as well) so without know where you ligve we can't give you an anwser. Your IP looks up to the US, but there's no point RD contributors guessing Nil Einne (talk) 18:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Yamaha golf cart question

Does anyone know about the model name of a certain Yamaha golf cart that uses handlebars for steering and can be driven in a position similar to a Segway? My dad owns a pink one, and I still can't find a similar cart on Google. Blake Gripling (talk) 09:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Surely the model number is stamped somewhere on your dad's? --Sean 18:22, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but I'm yet to find a model number or something in it. Not even a vinyl decal or two. Blake Gripling (talk) 10:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

electrical devices

If instead of a plug on the end of its wire, something has a black cylindrical object with what appears to be a couple of small metal lumps protruding from it, what might this be, and would I need some sort of adaptor to plug it in somewhere? It claims to use 12V, which seems rather low, but really I have no idea what that would mean either. Could someone shed some light on this matter before I go and buy it and find I've wasted my money?

148.197.114.158 (talk) 09:52, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

It's designed to plug into a car 12V outlet (aka a cigarette lighter socket). --Tagishsimon (talk) 10:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

What if I don't have a car? 148.197.114.158 (talk) 12:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Then either it will be a waste of your money or you will also need to buy a car... What is it you've purchased if you don't mind me asking? Just because a lot of electrical items designed for car use also come with mains plugs... My speakerphone for example (I'm not posh enough to have one inbuilt) has a car charger and a mains charger in the box... So does my ipod... Gazhiley (talk) 13:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Or buy an adaptor - there's one available from Maplin. Warofdreams talk 13:19, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Can you upload a picture to Wiki commons, and then set up a pointer to it, so we can see it from here? Yes, that's a lot of work if you've never done it before, but that would make it a lot easier for us to help you figure out what it is.

By the way, European plugs look a lot different from plugs made for sale (and use) in the US. And while I am on the subject, there are some old hotels that are grandfathered in, on the Eastern Seaboard, New York City, I believe, and which still have 12 volt direct current outlets - something you want to be especially careful plugging appliances into. If you have an appliance that expects Alternating Current, you will soon discover why the hotel put the warning above the outlet telling the whole world that the juice is DC. Dexter Nextnumber (talk) 08:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

hospitalsapostand fax addresses in Iceland

Can you please e mail me the postal and fax addresses of the hospitals in Icelan Many thanks Mr S Wilmot —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.23.236.14 (talk) 12:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

You are best off going to google and typing in "Hospital Iceland" into the search box... I would do it for you but i can't get google in work... Gazhiley (talk) 13:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

There are lots listed here. Warofdreams talk 13:16, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, the ref desk doesn't email responses to questions - you have to come back here to the ref desk over the next few days to look for answers. SteveBaker (talk) 22:23, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

What is 2010 in 'slang'?

What I mean is 2009 was 2k9, and so on. But now 2010 has two digits at the end, what is it in slang?

2k10? 2kX? (X means 10 in Roman Numerals) 210?

Thanks in advance Jbitkill (talk) 13:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I've seen both 2K10 and 2KX used already in print and online. I don't see what's particularly wrong with MMX, but no-one except television programme makers seem interested in using it. Nanonic (talk) 13:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The slang matters less now, since "Twenty Ten" is easy to say compared to "Two Thousand and Nine" or even "Twenty Oh Nine". I did hear someone try to call last year "Twenty Aught Nine", but it didn't take - Sounds more like a shotgun. "Two Kay Ten" works well, if I had my pick. Google might give some clues, depending on which pops up more. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:10, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

It's slang. You're not supposed to define it. Say whatever you want. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

A man I know who works in the parts department of a Ford dealership says that when speaking, both the service crew and customers frequently refer to the latest model cars as the "O'tens." Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 15:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

"Steer into the skid"

In Britain we are often told that we should "steer into the skid". But what exactly does this mean? If you are driving along a road and the car starts moving to the right, should you turn the front wheels to the right, or to the left? 78.146.234.221 (talk) 14:30, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Look Here---[[2]]Accdude92 (talk to me!) (sign) 14:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm still none the wiser. That link just says you steer where you want to go. 78.146.234.221 (talk) 14:41, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Just turn in the direction that the back of your car is heading.Accdude92 (talk to me!) (sign) 14:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Think of it like a clock. You're driving toward 12 o'clock. Your car skids, and suddenly the front of your car is pointing at 2 o'clock, even though you're still travelling toward 12 - thus, the skid. You turn the wheel in whichever way you want the front of your car to move - in this case, it's right of center, so you'd move it to the left to come back to center. So you turn the wheel to the left. Some animation to illustrate the point would be awesome, but my graphics skills are rubbish. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 15:03, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I didn't find that helpful because the most common type of skid is the 'oversteer' skid, where the rear wheels let go. Let's say you are turning left. In an oversteer skid the front of the car ends up pointing too far to the left, but the whole car is moving too far to the right (you're not going to make the turn). Saying "steer in the direction you want to go" confuses people because some people think "I'm not making the turn, I want to go to the left" and some people think "my car is pointing too far to the left, I must turn to the right". The second of those is correct. You need to recover control of the car and THEN get it moving in the way you want to go.

The link above is not helpful because it gives detailed instructions for getting out of the skid and then says there are cases where it doesn't work, including when you are driving a front wheel drive car. Almost all regular cars today are front wheel drive. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

In summary, Accdude92 says if rear of car is moving to the right, then steer right. Ultraexactzz says if the front of the car is moving to the right, then steer left. DJClayworth says (reversed directions for consistency) if front of the car is moving to the right, then steer left. Can all of these be correct? 78.146.234.221 (talk) 16:02, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

In an oversteer skid, in a left turn, the back of the car is drifting out to the right. The front of the car is pointing too far to the left. You want to steer to the right. You misunderstood me. A key point is that in a skid the front of the car is not pointing in the same direction it is moving. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The usual way I've heard it is, "Turn your wheels in the direction of the skid, presumably to attempt to keep the car going straight instead of spinning around. And, obviously, take your foot off the gas. Although, as Bill Cosby once said, after quoting that instruction, "That sounds to me like 'If someone throws you a left hook, lean into it!'" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:14, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

That is correct. One should steer the direction that the car is skidding, it will actually greatly help the wheels in regaining traction and drastically lessen the length of the skid. I have personally tried this as part of taking my driver's license and it works. Though I am not sure if I will be able to do it if it happened while driving on the road, in that short period of time when it happens you have to move contrary to every instinct which would be to turn the opposite way that the car is skidding. Hopefully I have yet have reason to try it out. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

The past few days, I've spent way too much time plowing snow with my tractor, and of course the same technique works. You can really feel the tires "grab" again once you get them pointed in the direction that the tractor is moving. The nice thing about a tractor, of course, is that you can see the wheels, and their angle, right there in front of you. That makes the correction more intuitive. -- Coneslayer (talk) 16:39, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

"Steer into the skid" vs. "Steer away from the skid" was a big piece of advice in my neck of the woods during the early 90s when I was learning to drive. Most cars being built then were front-wheel-drive, but there were still lots of rear-wheel-drive cars on the road, and they were of an age, condition, and price that new drivers were apt to find themselves behind the wheel of one. Since the two drive systems behaved so differently in a skid, it needed to be drilled into drivers' heads to pay attention to what one was driving, to avoid a panic reaction in a skid that would make things worse. What to actually do and why was actually explained, and then into vs. away from were just the shorthand, like "red before black is a friend of Jack, red before yellow will kill a fellow," or whatever. As DJ Clayworth notes, almost all cars on the road now are front-wheel-drive, so the dichotomy isn't there, and it makes less sense.

DJ Clayworth also notes that "steering into a skid" means regaining control, then pointing the car where you want it to go, which is true. If you're driving a front-wheel-drive car, and go into a skid while turning left, your drive wheels, the only ones that can get you out of trouble, are already pointing left, but your car is moving to the right. Pointing the wheels more to the left isn't going to help them get more traction; you're liable to get less. Pointing them to the right will get them rolling again, instead of sliding and spinning, so you can get control of the car, then, having also slowed down, hopefully make the turn. You turn the wheel to try to point the nose of the car in the direction it's already going: into the skid.

If you were in a rear-wheel-drive car, making the same turn, and went into a skid, the back of the car would be sliding. Also, you're not just sliding, you're rotating; the rear of the car is moving to your right, the nose to your left. Now you'd want to get your traction wheels (rear) and your control wheels (front) back in a straight line. To do that, you have to push the front of the car back in front of the rear wheels. You still turn the wheel to the right, in order to correct the rotation, but this time you're changing the direction the nose of the car is moving: away from the skid. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe the simpler way to say it is, "Turn the wheels in the direction the car should be going." And by all means, take the foot off the accelerator until the car is under control again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't believe so. As I said above, in a left turn oversteer skid the car is drifting wide (right) of the turn. If you think "I want to go more to the left, so turn left", that will just make the skid worse. The simplest statement is "line up the wheels so they are actually pointing the direction the car is moving in". When you've regained control then think about the direction you want to go in. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

When I went through Young Drivers about 10 years ago their advice was to always steer in the direction you want to go. They did not tell us to take our foot off the accelerator, as the "drive" was what you were trying to use to get yourself out of the skid. The important thing is to not slam on the brakes or over-correct with the wheel. I've driven in plenty of snow since then (Canajan, eh?) and that advice has never, um, steered me wrong. So, a practical example: We're stopped at a light, making a left turn. Light changes, we move forward, turning the wheel counter-clockwise to make the left when we hit some ice and begin to skid - the car begins to spin counter-clockwise as the rear of the car swings around. I carefully turn the wheel clockwise so that my front drive wheels are pointing down the road I want to go. It's worked every time I've had to employ it. Matt Deres (talk) 17:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Practice is the only way to learn to handle skids. One must react, not think. So - get yourself a session at a skid school. Or, failing that, find a large open space - supermarket car park for instance - on a very wet day and try to induce skids. It's like the agent Quiller says - I must have checked many hundreds of cars, but only found one bomb. Learn skid control, and practice safe driving.90.0.1.165 (talk) 16:45, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. Find a large parking lot and get far away from all traffic. Then you can practice to your heart's content - on water, ice, whatever. It's not just good practice, it builds your confidence, because then you don't just have general theory, you know exactly how your car will behave in that circumstance. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

None of that clarifies things. Perhaps you could provide a list of all the situations you should turn left, and all the situations you should turn right? 78.151.131.82 (talk) 20:36, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

There are essentially four cases:

1. Oversteer skid, front wheel drive car.
2. Understeer skid, front wheel drive car.
3. Oversteer skid, rear wheel wheel drive car.
4. Understeer skid, rear wheel drive car.

The problem is that you're not going to have time be able to mentally figure out which of the four you have and how to react. You need to have that stuff so ingrained into your 'muscle memory' that you just do the right thing without conscious effort. So to be safe in a skid, you really need to take a car with the same drivewheel configuration as yours out onto a skid-pan and try it. If you switch from front wheel drive to rear wheel drive, you've gotta go do it again. Some modern cars (like my MINI Cooper'S) have fancy dynamic stability control that let's you just stamp on the brakes in a skid and the car will measure your steering angle to understand where you're trying to go - along with the yaw rate sensor to tell it where you're actually going - and it'll kick in little squirts of brake/no-brake to each wheel individually to get you straightened out. SteveBaker (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Once you've taken your foot off the gas, why does front wheel vs. rear wheel drive matter very much? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:31, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The thing is, you need power to "come out" of a skid. You'll need to apply power at some point to change the trajectory of the car, and thus come out of the skid. By basic physics (law of inertia) unless you can apply a force to the car to change its trajectory, it will continue on the same trajectory. So you need to know when and how to apply the gas correctly to get out of it. And so it matters whether, when you do have to use the gas, whether you will be applying power behind your center of mass, or in front of it. Makes a HUGE difference. --Jayron32 02:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

@Bugs: Not really. Assuming your still in gear, the engine is actively slowing the car when you take your foot off the gas. Since that may well make the skid worse, you might well need to keep your foot gently on the gas to allow the wheels to regain grip. This is all down to grip. The STATIC friction of rubber on a road is high - the DYNAMIC friction is pathetic. That's why ABS brakes work. When the wheels lock up, they are slipping with respect to the road and have very little friction. Releasing the brakes briefly so that the wheels are once again rotating such that the rubber is always stationary with respect to the road gives you tons of friction when you re-apply the brakes. So this is all about keeping the rubber from slipping against the road. So unless you also stamped on the clutch or put the car in neutral (you really don't have time for that - and it's a bad idea anyway), the engine is braking the wheels and making it even harder for them to get grip.

@Jayron32: I agree that on a front-wheel drive car, you can use power to get the front of the car moving in the right direction - but on a rear wheel drive car, you need to be an expert at the process of counter-steering and balancing the car with the gas pedal - and I couldn't recommend applying power in a skid. SteveBaker (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

To be clear: We're saying, at a basic level, that "steer into the skid" means align the wheels with the car until you regain traction, right? I know I'm not taking front/rear-wheel drive into account, but is that essentially the idea? That's what I do when I skid on ice or gravel, and it seems to work... -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That's a great and simple explanation. First get hooked up. Then you can point the car where you want it to go. I think some of the explanations above are too complicated, and some are just plain silly. You need power to come out of a skid?? Whaaaa? That's nonsense. Friday (talk) 03:44, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the basic idea of "turning into the skid" is that your wheels need to be aligned so that they roll in the same direction the car is moving. If you are skidding then usually your wheels are either not turning at all, or are turning in a different direction than the car is moving. When you "turn into the skid", you're hoping to get the wheels moving with the car, which will then allow you to "drive out of the skid" by appropriately applying the gas at the right time. If your wheels are turned at an angle to the direction the car is moving, applying the gas will usually do no good, and you'll just continue to skid in the same direction. --Jayron32 03:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and it's scary, because if your car is rotating to the right, your instinct is to steer left to correct that, but that'll make it worse. You've got to steer in the dangerous-feeling direction just for long enough to regain control. Then you can give it gas and steer normally again. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I find it even worse and more counterintuitive in an understeer situation. When you're pushing toward a wall or the edge of the road, steering right toward the thing you very much don't want to hit feels very wrong. But it will help you get hooked up again. Friday (talk) 04:01, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

When you find yourself in a skid or otherwise out of control of your car, your first priority is to slow down. You can't do that by hitting the gas. Immediately take your foot off the gas and focus on steering. Try to keep the wheels turned in the direction you want the car to be going. You might still spin around. But once you straighten up, and have the car back under control, then and only then you could try putting your foot back on the accelerator. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I've been reading this section for a while now and I can't get my head around it. Some people seem to be saying one thing, and someone else comes along and says the exact opposite yet agrees with what the first person said...Either I'm not reading it right, or...Well, I've never driven a car, so in a discussion like this which one of us would be wrong is something of a no-brainer, but still...I've come out of this a lot more confused than I went in. Vimescarrot (talk) 07:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Imagine driving (or riding with someone else driving) down an icy road and the car begins to "fishtail". Whichever way the car's tail goes doesn't matter - just try to turn the wheels in the direction you're wanting to go. But first, and I keep saying this - take your foot off the accelator and let the car slow down. The slower it's going, the less trouble you'll be in from the skid. In fact, if it's fishtailing, you were probably going too fast in the first place. Of course, if someone else is also going too fast, following too close for conditions, you're liable to get banged into, and then you've got different trouble. But that's life in the frozen north. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:23, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Vimescarrot, I think the reason you're seeing people seeming to say two different things, yet agree with each other, is there are two different types of skids: oversteer and understeer. The car's behaving very differently in each situation. Oversteer the car is turning too much (the rear end is sliding around and the car is going into a spin, or "fishtailing", and understeer it's not turning enough (instead of going around the curve, the car is sliding in a more or less straight line). While it's possible to make a rear-wheel-drive car understeer, and a front-wheel-drive car oversteer, the vast majority of the time, it's going to be the other way around: understeer for front-wheel-drive, oversteer for rear-wheel-drive. When the rear end of a car swings out too far in a curve, it feel perfectly natural to turn the steering wheel in the direction the rear end is sliding to correct, but when the front end is sliding and not turning enough, it doesn't feel as natural to turn the steering wheel in the direction the car is sliding, instead of trying to point it in the direction you want to be driving. When front-wheel-drive cars became more common and rear-wheel-drive cars less so, drivers had to be taught to deal with understeer suddenly, because it was something new. Now, with front-wheel-drive cars being the norm, the admonishment doesn't make as much sense as it used to. As for taking the foot off the gas, as Baseball Bugs advises, I agree with that one. Just long enough to get the car straightened out, then gently back on the gas. Don't jam the brake. Of course with ABS and traction/stability control, AWD, &c., the game's probably changing all over again. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 14:03, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't like this "steer in the direction you want to go" stuff. You might be trying to go straight, in which case such advice is unhelpful. Some jerk explains it fairly well above, altho I would nitpick and say that most street cars (even RWD) will understeer when their limits are exceeded, if you're just trying to turn and not causing oversteer due to aggressive throttle use. Friday (talk) 15:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I was assuming driving straight down the road and the car starting to spin out. If you're trying to turn, the advice is still good: (1) take your foot off the gas; and (2) turn the wheels in the direction you're trying to go. But to be sure of what to do, practice these scenarios in the far reaches of an icy parking lot where there's no fear of hitting someone or something. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:02, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I was assuming trying to turn, not trying to maintain a straight line. Keeping a straight line and spinning out seems like it probably employs some of the same principles, but I can't get my head around the subtleties enough to be sure on that. I'm thinking plain old gettin' around a curve on a snowy day type driving. But yes, absolutely true, a RWD car can be induced to understeer (or a FWD car to oversteer) under the right conditions. In general, though, your average driver is probably going to understeer in a FWD, and oversteer in a RWD. Enough of the time that rules of thumb are safe, I would say. I got caught up trying to explain the mechanics of it, but really I think all I meant to get at was "steer into the skid" used to be a way of telling a first-time FWD driver "hey, when the car starts to slide going into a turn, don't try to bring the rear end about, because the rear end's not your problem. Your problem's up front now." In the end you're turning the steering wheel the same direction in either situation anyway. It just feels different, and it's for different reasons. Maybe it has something to do with the days when RWD cars ruled the road; people would say "I got into a skid, but I steered out of it," just to mean "I didn't crash." When FWD started taking over, an easy way to note the difference between the two drive types was to warn, "now remember, with this car, you don't want to steer out of the skid, you want to steer into it." Both "into" and "out of" (later corrupted into "away from") still really just meaning "don't crash." Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 16:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Once you take your foot off the gas, front or rear wheel drive shouldn't make any difference. You always steer the front wheels. The rear wheels are stationary. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, that is true, you're never steering the rear wheels, and if your foot's completely off the gas, you're not sending power to whichever wheels are the drive wheels. Point taken. On the other hand, having driven RWD, FWD, AWD, and Rear-engine RWD cars, and gone into skids (intentional and not, depending) in all of them, I can attest there are differences (of course, there are differences in power, weight, length, suspension, gearing, and what all else, too, granted). My best guesses on that are: 1) either not receiving power but still being connected to the drive system is a factor (foot off the gas is not the same is neutral or clutch in), so the location of the drive wheels still makes a difference, now as a slowing factor instead of a accelerating factor, or 2) the taking your foot off the gas piece is more about not jamming the brakes and locking the wheels, because then control will really go out the window. Once you've gotten to the point where you're letting off the gas, though, you're already in whichever skid you're in, and going to be steering accordingly. The difference is more how you got there in the first place, and that's where which drive type you have matters. It's not that a FWD feels different to correct a skid in than a RWD necessarily; it's that correcting an understeer vs an oversteer skid feels different. Maybe. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Normally I'm the first to ridicule people who think videogame skills translate into real life.. but there are a number of sufficiently-realistic driving games out there which can serve as useful practice in skid recovery. This is less risky (and more legal) than getting your practice on a street or parking lot. Friday (talk) 16:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

It might help, but there's no substitute for the real thing. Take your car out into an open, icy area and see how your particular car behaves. It will build your confidence and help program into your mind how to handle a real skid, where you might not have time to really think about it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I am with Bugs on this. Plus it is a fun time too. Just watch out for things like lamp posts or other obstacles and don't get the speed up too terribly high. Googlemeister (talk) 20:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Absolutely. You are NEVER going to remember what to do within the second or so you have to do it without practice...and practice in your car (or something very like it). In MY car (yours will be different!), 70% of the weight of the car is over the front wheels. The rear wheels are more or less decorative attachments that stop the back of the car from getting muddy! In a skid, I just have to point the front wheels where I want to go - and even (perhaps) apply some power. The front wheels go where I aim them and the rest kinda/sorta eventually gets the idea and follows along - but because the back wheels don't have a whole lot to say about how the car is going to behave, we don't care all that much. It's a lot of fun! If I'm in danger of hitting something, I can stamp on the brakes and let the computer solve the problem for me - but I still have to point the front wheels where I want to go because that's how the computer figures out what I want to do. But on a rear wheel drive car, that's crazy life-threatening behavior! If you're under-steering, the front wheels have lost all of their grip - so you have to turn them to point the way the car is actually moving (even if that's not where you want to go) - so that they start rotating at a rate appropriate to your forward motion. THEN you can try some gentle steering to get the car turned the way you want. That's highly contrary to your natural instincts - which is why you need to learn to do it instinctively. Modern front wheel drive cars with computerised brake force distribution are much more user-friendly...you can follow your instincts - and the car will take care of it. SteveBaker (talk) 23:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's the thing: Skidding is typically caused by the car going too fast for conditions. That's not a criticism of your driving (or mine), it's just a fact. Taking your foot off the gas often starts to remedy the situation almost immediately, i.e. it slows you down to the point where you're no longer skidding. Then you can try accelerating again. You might skid again. Foot off gas pedal. Repeat as needed until you're past the icy section, typically at an intersection or going over a bridge, although ice can be anywhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:49, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's a recipe for losing control if I ever saw one. Friday (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

How do you figure? I'm going by experience, living in the frozen midwest. If you're skidding, accelerating will make it worse. Your first order of business is to slow down to the point where you can regain control of the car. Yes, it's tedious. But it's how you have to do it. Patience is needed. It's not July 4th. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Let's put it this way: I've seen ditches littered with cars whose drivers thought they could just keep driving at the speed they felt like driving. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:04, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Gentle, smooth inputs are helpful. Rapidly alternating between trying to slow down and trying to speed up is the opposite of smooth. I'm not saying it'll never work, but it's not a good thing to try. There's little point trying to slow down when your tires aren't hooked up. First order of business is getting hooked up again. Friday (talk) 00:05, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, slow acceleration. I'm not sure what you mean by "hooked up". You either have the car under control, or you don't. And if it's already out of control, accelerating will make it worse. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:24, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Price range - furnace with installation

Can someone provide a general price range for purchasing and complete installation of a new Westinghouse, two stage 140,000 btu gas furnace 4 pound capacity with a humidifier, as installed by a HVAC contractor (New York area)? I don't know the exact model number or model name. I'm flying completely blind here. They are installing it today in my parent's home—the existing furnace 20+ years old, broke down (and could not be made operational) in the middle of the winter with temperatures in the c°20s so it was basically impossible to have the lead time to do research first. The price sounds outrageous to me, but my parents are doing it and basically circumstances had them over a barrel. Still, I want to know if they got ripped off. I understand that no one can tell me anything exact, but a general price range would be much appreciated.--98.116.27.51 (talk) 14:46, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

One option might be to call competing contractors and ask for a quote on the same unit. Use the labor hours from the current installer to baseline an estimate. In this way, you account for regional price differences, taxes, and so forth. If the quotes are noticeably lower, you probably got a raw deal. On the other hand, if they're higher, then you came out ok. Not sure what your recourse is if you did get screwed, though - it's a seller's market when the temperature drops. You might also consider checking with your local Better Business Bureau (via their website) to see if there are other complaints about the contractor - again, probably a little late now, but that might give you a feel for the overall sketchiness of the situation. Good luck, UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:57, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I had something similar installed a few years ago when I was a renter (I didn't pay for it myself), but I remember it being in the "thousands of dollars" range. --Mr.98 (talk) 15:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

It is definitely in the four-digits range. It might even be close to $10,000. I think a friend spent $6,000–$8,000 for installation of a very basic furnace. In the Boston area, HVAC contractors get close to $200 an hour, then there is the cost of the furnace and its transportation to your home, as well as the cost of disposing of the old furnace. Marco polo (talk) 20:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

It also depends on how old the previous system was and how much new ductwork is needed. I had an old "gravity furnace" with large asbestos wrapped ducts. And was told one price if the ducts weren't there when they returned or one a couple thousand dollars more expensive if the HVAC guys had to touch them. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 15:20, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

shopping

if I had wanted to buy something from Argos but found they were out of stock, how long might I have to wait before they get more in? Do they have a particular day for deliveries?

148.197.115.54 (talk) 15:04, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest that question is best directed to the staff at the store in question. Funny though – whenever I tried to get something from that store it was nearly always "out of stock". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:24, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

You can check on their website whether something is in stock or not, and search other local branches which may have it in stock. But yes, if they don't have it in stock, you'd have to check with them - it would depend on whether they have stock in a warehouse somewhere, or whether they have completely run out. Warofdreams talk 16:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

In the shop they will give you an estimate of when it is due to arrive, particularly if you reserve one. 78.146.234.221 (talk) 16:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

FWIW, my local Argos store gets deliveries every morning, presumably to replace whatever was sold the previous day. Of course, they get their stuff from other suppliers, who might also be out of stock, and so on down the line, so it's an impossible question to answer in general terms.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Also high-sales-volume products are more likely to be kept-in-stock/re-stocked more quickly, than low-sales-volume products so the product itself will be a consideration in how quickly it's likely to comeback into stock. ny156uk (talk) 17:42, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

And also, items that are not manufactured anymore - or which they have chosen not to stock anymore - are always marked "Out of Stock" rather than "You can't buy this anymore."...it's really annoying. SteveBaker (talk) 21:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Male attire

Any opinions on men wearing skirts? Gay? Metro? Cutting edge? Masculinist movement? 161.28.116.128 (talk) 23:43, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a forum and we do not engage in debates nor answer requests for opinions. See the top of this page for further information.. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 23:49, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Depends on whether you live in Scotland or not. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

See [3] (Not safe for work: dangling participle). Don't spread the knees if wearing a kilt and no undies whilst seated next to the Queen, even if a manly man. Edison (talk) 03:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC) Scottish? Anyway as the header says, the reference desk isn't the place for people to give their opinions but Men's skirts may be of interest which has a Western world POV but does have this comment "One man, reading the exhibition's presentation on the subject of male skirt-wearing in cultures other than those in the North America and Europe, observed that "God! Three quarters of the world's population [wear skirts]!".[7]" Nil Einne (talk) 12:51 pm, Today (UTC+13)

Skirt-like clothing are also worn by men in the Pacific islands, sometimes as uniform clothing (Fiji is definitely one place). Steewi (talk) 03:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Freddie Laker who ran a very successful airline back in the 60s once said he would hire men or women for cabin crew, but the uniform was a skirt and blouse.Froggie34 (talk) 09:46, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

A link to http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/beauty/h-m-s-new-collection-features-skirts-for-men-547911/#photoViewer=1 is on the front page of yahoo.com this morning. 99.166.95.142 (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)