Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2006 December 4

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December 4

infinite tip

This may be an odd question:

First. Suppose I buy something, say hot chocolate, from a cafe for 10 $, and I tip 1$. I've just given a tip of 10%, right? (1/10=10%) Now, suppose I get a free drink (from a generous employer at Christmas) and tip 1 $. I spent 0 $, tipped 1 $, so I've given an infinite tip, right? (1/0=infinite) Duomillia 00:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

1/0 isn't infinite, it's undefined. As Division by zero says, "n ordinary (real number) arithmetic, the expression has no meaning.". -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 00:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

So, if I tip 100 $ for the free drink, the hundred dollars would be meaningles? ;) Duomillia 01:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

But your tip could be said to approach infinity (in percentage, that is); it is as close to infinity as you care to make it so the bartender is a lucky man indeed! Merry Christmas!! --Justanother 00:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting concept to be told around the table. --Proficient 01:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Straying a little from the original question, I was thinking today about tips. It's standard practice to tip a particular percentage -- usually 10, 15, or 20 percent. However, isn't the idea of tipping to provide a little reward to your server? Psychologically, I'm sure they're not too worried about what particular percentage you've decided on. A nice even dollar, two dollars, or five dollars seem to me to be an appropriate amount to tip for your single-person meal. Or, if you're paying the bill and tip together, just leave a $20 if your bill is for $17.35. Saves picking up a bunch of nickels and dimes.

Of course if you're paying with plastic none of this applies. :) Theavatar3 01:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, from what I do and what I've noticed others do, paying with plastic pretty much follows paying with cash; you round up to the nearest buck or, for a cheap meal, maybe half-buck. As far at the attitude of servers; I am sure that most of them feel that, overall, their tips are related to their attitude, even if they do not always act as if they know. --Justanother 02:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to tip at a catered party: the person paying the caterer tips the staff, especially if they're asked to stay later than originally agreed. If you tip on a "freebie", though, you tip on the value, not the cost. For instance, the owner of a restaurant gives you dessert "on the house". You still tip the waiter, based on what the dessert would have cost if you had paid for it. Also, in the U.S., waiters are required to pay taxes on a certain percentage of the checks as if they received that amount in tips whether they did or not. -THB 02:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Off of Theavatar3's comment. In the US wait staff isn't payed minimum wage, so tipping is their main source of payment for the work they do. So the percentage does mean a lot to them. If you tip poorly and come back to the same place enough, ALL the wait staff there will know you're a bad tipper and treat you as such (they talk to each other a lot). Also, in my experience, over tipping (say 20-25%) somewhere you go a lot can get you a lot of privileges and free desserts and drinks etc. So tip good! And one mre thing, I've read an article once that generally girls get tipped more then boys irrespective of the service quality. Hurray! --Cody.Pope 05:21, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If by "infinite" you mean "lousy", then the answer is yes. ☢ Ҡi∊ff⌇↯ 05:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The percentage method seems inadequate for determining tips. Let's take two scenarios:

• You order a 50 cent cup of coffee, with free refills, get excellent service, sit and talk with the waitress for a half hour, get advice on where to get your car fixed, and directions on how to get there. You consider this excellent service, so give her a 20% tip, which comes out to one thin dime.

• Your group of 10 goes to a fancy restaurant for brunch, and you all order the buffet. The waitress does everything properly, but doesn't really have much to do but write up the bill, which comes to $200. Does she deserve a $40 tip for that ? StuRat 10:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Does it really cost 50 cents for a cup of coffee with free refills in the States? That's about 26p. Gosh that's cheap. If you tipped her a few hundred % it'd still be cheap. How do I emigrate? --Dweller 10:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it is about $1.50 but refills are still free at most places (I don't know about Starbucks because I don't really like their coffee and never asked for one). --Justanother 12:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a diner near me that offers coffee, with free refills, for 50 cents. I can't believe they make money off that, it's likely a loss leader, to get people into the diner, assuming they are likely to buy food once there. StuRat 19:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I would never leave less than a dollar tip even for a single cup of coffee that cost 75 cents at the counter in a cheap dirty diner in a small town in the middle of the country when the place was empty in the middle of the day. A dime tip would be a pointed statement that you were dissatisfied. And no, you don't tip the same percentage for a buffet. Did the waitress refill beverages or remove dirty plates? I can't imagine leaving less than $1.00 per person if the waitress did anything more than just write the check. I especially like the comment "if by infinite you mean lousy....." -THB 12:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Off topic to the original question, but I thought I'd share a story of a naive American (me) in Dehra Dun, India. No one in the hotel except me and a bunch of Russian contractors (this was 1987) who sat together at a big table by the wall. My first dinner I sat by the window, with a view of the Himalayas. Then I went into the bar, where I had 3 beers (for irrelevant reasons I needed the drink!) which cost about US $7. I was the only one in the bar, the bartender was attentive and kept my bowl of crackers well filled. I left the equivalent of $10, a $3 tip (I later learned that the bartender probably made about US$500 per year). Next morning at breakfast, all the tables by the window were reserved, so I sat in the middle, until the waiter in broken English made it clear that all the tables were reserved for me! It went like that for the whole week I was there. Cheers Geologyguy 16:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That's so awesome. :) Indian people are so loveable, I find. Theavatar3 17:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

When I was last in San Francisco, visiting from Scotland, we were recommended a seafood restaurant on Pier 39. The waitress was so intent on her nail varnish conversation with her colleagues, she ignored us so noticeably and eventually served us with badly presented and nearly cold clam chowder with such a disdainful attitude that when the bill arrived, I paid it with cash, and left a single cent coin in her check book. As we were leaving, she opened the book to see how magnanimous we had been and the insults she threw our way were vituperous. Eventually I calmed her down and advised her that I had just done her, her waitressing career and her employer's future business a great big favour, and given her a lesson she would never forget. And I also reminded her that the cent was by far in excess of what she deserved. I hope she reads this and responds.

I don't blame you for your actions, but I have to wonder if she acted disdainfully because of treatment she received from previous European guests. I once knew a guy who worked as a waiter in S.F., and he told me no one ever wanted to serve Europeans, because they tipped so much less than American customers did. Not that it's a legitimate excuse, but she might have figured you weren't going to leave more than 10% anyway, so she should only do a half-assed job.

I used to live in a Continental European country with generally really bad service (much worse than France). In this country, people generally don't tip more than 10%, and more often they just round the bill up to the nearest round number and leave the balance as a tip. The subject of tips was always one of dispute between the Americans and Europeans in my group. I tried to argue that if customers in the country started tipping like Americans, the waiters and waitresses might start acting like servers in the U.S. -- that is, not require a flare gun to get their attention. Considering the standard of service typical in that European country, the 20% extra we "have" to pay in America is well worth it. -- Mwalcoff 00:28, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

While I don't take issue with the English poster above, I would say that generousity is never, ever inappropriate, and is always better than 'teaching a lesson'. Theavatar3 17:00, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I do take your point, but my wife and I invariably leave a reasonable tip wherever we eat out. In Edinburgh where we live (I am English and my wife is Scottish) we generally avoid restaurants that employ locals, because the servers are on minimum wage - expect poor tips, if any - and so don't deliver due to the low expectations they have developed - so there is a vicious circle. So, we eat in places where the servers are largely transient gap year employees - mainly Australians, New Zealanders (and never the twain shall be cross-identified - call them Antipodeans to be on the safe side), Americans, Canadians, Italians, Portuguese, Spanish, but never French - they are so rude and disdainful I am surprised they even get paid, and South Africans - brilliant. Those mentioned groups, minus the French, invariably give such wonderful service in a non-subservient and naturally friendly way that it would be unthinkable to leave a poor tip - yet they also invariably say that they didn't expect to be paid one as they are being paid by the proprietor for doing the work anyway. Do the locals learn? No - because we had the "Peasants Revolt" remember, and genetically, we consider giving good service subservient. Maybe that explains the problem between US servers and British diners?

Interesting, I never thought about it that way. I have to say, though, that I've experienced fairly good service in the UK, despite the poor tips the servers receive. The only exception was at an Indian restaurant in Bristol, where the waiter kept saying, "Yes, please," instead of "Hi, how can I help you?" and looked at me like I was crazy when I asked for salad dressing. My English friends had to explain that that's the way Indian restaurants in Britain operate, and that you're not supposed to order salad there! -- Mwalcoff 01:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I think this is related to the phenomenon of 'shucking and jiving' of the African-American experience.

It is easy to be benevolent when you have a history of being well-fed. A lower-class person who comports themselves with benevolence is to be treasured far beyond the gentry. Theavatar3 17:07, 5 December 2006 (UTC) Theavatar3 17:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like our Hawaiian/Californian friend who stayed with us for a week last year and got really upset when the waiter(esses)(servers) didn't know what to do when he incessantly ordered "Ranch" with everything. In fact, he became so incensed that on his return to San Diego, he shipped us a large consignment of "Ranch", with the shipping cost far exceeding the product cost - I suspect to educate us. Mind you, I do believe that less than 10% of Americans ever venture outside the United States?

I think that's a bit low, although many US citizens may only travel as far as Canada, Mexico, or the Caribbean. However, in this age of terrorism (and the horrible flight conditions which have resulted), 10% might be accurate in the future. StuRat 07:33, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Remember that although it did not carry a nasty catch-all phrase, what came before 9/11 was worse yet. See grunge, Fight Club, Bosnia, Kosovo. Theavatar3 17:15, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a little late to respond, but noone has yet mentioned this: I was under the impression that TIPS was an acronym meaning, To Insure Prompt Service. Obvious interpretation, I think, even though it might perhaps more correctly be called TAPS...To Assure Prompt Service! Just a thought. Dave172.135.3.189 00:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I suspect that is retrospective folk etymology. There is not the same cultural imperative about tipping in Australia as seems to be the case in other countries, so we have less established rules about when/if/how much etc. It certainly happens, but not to the same extent as in the USA. If people tip waiters who provide good service because their standard wages are quite low, do they apply the same philosophy to other tradionally low-paid people such as hairdressers? JackofOz 01:39, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I know I generally tip the people who give me haircuts and whatnot, and I'm pretty sure that there are quite a few people in Canada who do so. Generally, however, fast food places and shops which do not sell food don't seem to have tips. Also, currently in Indonesia, tips seem to be averaging about 1000rp (pretty close to that flat dime mentioned above), but the people appreciate it a lot. Crisco 1492 06:18, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Note one oddity of US tax law is that the wait staff must pay taxes based on assumed tips, as the government doesn't trust them to report tips honestly. Thus, a particularly unpleasant and incompetent waiter or waitress, who gets no tips as a result, can actually end up owing more in taxes on their tips than they made in tips. StuRat 12:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

And the other nasty thing about tips in restaurants that automatically add them as a chargeable percentage of the commestible bill is that the tipper is left to wonder whether the tips go to the server, the staff, the staff including the management, the manangement for redistribution equitably among the whole staff - (servers and others), the management for redistribution to the staff to make wages up to statutory minimum wages level, or just to the management. This customer (me) was once threatened with police action in London when such behaviour occurred. I scored out the percentage service element on the bill and proferred payment for the balance, whilst offering my voluntary and well-deserved tip to the server himself. The manager/owner threatened to call the police so I invited him to do so, ordered more drinks, sat down to enjoy them, squatted his table, and prepared to wait the requisite 3 hours for the police to arrive. After half-an-hour the stupid manager/owner realised he was powerless to surcharge my bill in any way, and also accepted that the police may not intervene in a civil law action (which this was); they are limited to criminal action intervention only (though I reminded the manager/owner that his attempt to surcharge my bill without my agreement amounted to extortion which is a criminal action - and he also realised that the longer he procrastinated conceding defeat the longer he was going to be denied the opportunity of re-releasing the table to other customers. The result - I had a much longer and far more entertaining dinner than would have otherwise been the case - he got paid the advertised cost for the food and drink he had provided - which to be fair was quite good - he saw how crass his unreasonable stance really was; the server got a handsome tip - in cash, and I got the immense satisfaction of seeing the manager/owner squirm whilst pleading with me to leave, whilst the server (behind him) gave me a wink of approval and a great big smile of thanks.

many movies,many heroes and villians

what do you think are some of the greatest movie heroes and the greatest movie villians of all time

One great villain leaps out-Erich von Stroheim, the 'man you love to hate'. Clio the Muse 00:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

For baddies, I like , Alan Rickman (esp in Closet Land), Gary Oldman (esp in Léon (film)), Peter Stormare (saw him in Constantine (film)). Don't know about for all time but they are great ones. --Justanother 02:31, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

AFI's 100 Years… 100 Heroes & Villains sorry no Akira, Ivan the Terrible (film) or Aguirre, the Wrath of God included. meltBanana 02:45, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, the AFI list is for American films. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I can think of five movies that work really well (realistically) in how the heroes and villains play off on one another: Heat, The Last of the Mohicans, Rob Roy, Star Wars (ep 4-6), and Zatoichi. Theavatar3 17:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The best is when, like Clio said, there are villains that you love to hate. Guy Ritchie's two gangster films (Snatch and Lock Stock) are like that, and Hayao Miyazaki's ouvere doesn't even really have villains as such (e.g. Princess Mononoke). Theavatar3 17:46, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Goldfinger

Bond: Do you expect me to talk?

Goldfinger: No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to die.

User:Zoe|(talk) 19:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Auric is one of my favourites too. I was talking about this exact scene only last night with my partner.Everyone, it's villain.  :) JackofOz 01:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Ah, Goldfinger. Thanks for the correction. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:56, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Jews

Why do so many jews lend money/bank? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.164.200.130 (talk • contribs)

See Ashkenazi Jews. Basically, in medieval times, Christians were not allowed to lend money at interest for religious reasons. Therefore European Jews took up the slake and provided a needed service. So tradition may play a part along with other cultural factors. --Justanother 02:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the historical and religious issues are better covered under Usury. --Justanother 03:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the OP is using the present tense. He or she is wrong. It's an old stereotype, based on the history Justanother quotes. Today, there are of course some Jews working in the banking sector, but you're just as likely to find them working in just about any other of the professions. And the number of Jewish bankers in any country other than Israel will be massively outweighed by the number of non Jewish. --Dweller 10:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, it is certainly a stereotype. And when you say "in banking" what does that really mean in today's complex corporate economy. Today money is lend by corporations, not individuals and corporate ownership is mostly a function of rate of return and large investors like mutual funds and insurance firms not medieval history. Maybe if you go back 100 years you can say something about the makeup of bankers. The closest thing you could do today would be an ethnic survey of CPAs. --Justanother 12:06, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Jews are disproportionately involved in banking per se anymore, at least in America. I think if you wanted to find fields where there are a lot of Jews, you might want to look at medicine, law, politics, academia and education, entertainment, accounting and retailing. But there are Jewish people in every profession. There are Jewish taxi drivers, cops, firefighters, dishwashers, football players and chicken sexers. OK, I've never met a chicken sexer, let alone a Jewish one, but I'm sure there's got to be at least one Jewish chicken sexer. -- Mwalcoff 00:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

French Underground

when the Normandy Invasion took place, was the code to the french underground,"it wounds my heart with a mon------? anger"? or, what was it?

The second line, "Bercent mon coeur d'une langueur monotone" (wound my heart with a monotonous langour), transmitted late on June 5, meant that the attack was to be mounted immediately.

from Normandy invasion. --Justanother 03:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Do abbreviations qualify as shorthand?

Although I don't know any formal systems of shorthand, I use a lot of both standard and personal abbreviations when I take notes (acctt for accountant, emp for employee, rcvd for received, dmsss for dungeonmistresses, shdtvbn for should not have been, etc.). Cd a sys of abbrs like this be cons'd s'hand? NeonMerlin 04:14, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Dungeonmistress" is a word you use a lot? --Optichan 04:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I took that as a joke, but hey, who knows? NeonMerlin could be into fantasy or roleplaying or BDSM or fantasy roleplaying BDSM. I don't judge.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 04:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that stuck out for me too o_o See Shorthand. Apparently what you use isn't true shorthand because shorthand is a different character set (like cursive is to print) --froth^{T C} 04:40, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I had to look up "dungeonmistresses" as well just to see what that was. --Proficient 05:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not a word I use a lot. I have plenty of abbreviations planned out in case I should ever need to use them. NeonMerlin 05:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree that shorthand has to use symbols in order to be considered such, but it does have to be a system of script made up of time saving shortcuts, so IMO you'd have to be using almost exclusively abbreviations in order for it to be a shorthand system. Anchoress 05:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

IF U CN RD THS U CN BCME A SCRTRY & GT A GD JB. No, it's a whole different way of transcribing sounds. -THB 06:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

ND YU CN PRBBLY RD HBRW WTHOT VWL PNTS. 64.90.198.6 00:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

See Speedwriting --ColinFine 08:15, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Abbreviations are only useful if the reader understands them. So if the notes are for your personal reading then it doesn't really matter, but if you expect over people to understand what is being say things like Dmss are not going to make sense unless it is a commonly agreed upon abbreviation. This is a major problem that businesses suffer with - they use abbreviations and acronyms in inappropriate places and people are unable to decipher them (though sometimes they are a simple way of making information semi-secure from people who don't know the meaning). there is a fine line between abbreviating to save effort inputting and having that saved energy make the reading take twice as long... ny156uk 19:04, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

"Chasing dragons with plastic swords"

This line is from the song "A Change," from Sheryl Crow's eponymous album. Does anyone have an idea what it means? I don't think it refers (at least not specifically) to LARP, somehow. NeonMerlin 05:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Child's play? Lots of kids have cheap plastic swords. --Justanother 05:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the song, but to me it suggests both childs' play/fantasy, and also going into battle without adequate weaponry. --ColinFine 08:17, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Chasing the dragon has another meaning as well, but I have no idea whether she intended the line to refer to that. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:30, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

There's also 'tickling the dragon's tail', which refers to lowering a plutonium hemisphere onto another plutonium hemisphere. Pretty blue lighting effects occur. Drop the screwdriver, though, and you're in for a world of agony. Theavatar3 18:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You want intriguing Sheryl Crow lyrics -- how about the next one from that song: "Jack-off Jimmy / everybody wants more" (!)

As for the original question, the phrase conjures up images of staggering foolhardiness, if the dragon is dangerous. If it's not, then the pursuit is harmless, fun, but probably a little childish. At any rate it's a gentle critique of contemporary American mores. And by contemporary, I mean ~1999.Theavatar3 17:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Overpass Fence Extensions

I've noticed something curious on the Ohio Turnpike, strange "fence extensions" that stick out from each overpass. They look as if they can be folded back down, but were all "deployed" over the Thanksgiving Holiday (last week). This area does get heavy lake effect snows, so I was wondering if they could serve some related purpose ? I was guessing that they are to catch slush that splashes down onto the highway from trucks on the overpass. Here's a diagram:

              | U |
              | N |
              | D |
              | E |
          |   | R |   | <- Fence Extension
----------+---+---+---+-----------
          O V E R P A S S
----------+---+---+---+-----------
          |   | P |   |
              | A |
              | S |
              | S |

I can provide pics, if needed. Does anybody have any idea what these are for ? StuRat 09:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it something that's there to prevent people (vandals) on foot getting onto the side of the overpass (so they can drop stuff onto the cars in the underpass)? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:11, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No, it's like 20 feet in the air, so that can't be it. StuRat 12:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree with the previous with the addition of preventing tagging of the overpass. Taggers will climb. --Justanother 12:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Most likely a snow thing. In Canada we put up solid fences along the overpass to prevent snow being pushed by the plows off the overpass. --Zeizmic 12:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I think it may be to stop people from throwing themselves into the under pass to commit suicide (Seriously) 8-)--Light current 00:34, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

No, they are too far away from the underpass for that, maybe 30 feet (10 meters). StuRat 06:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The speculation here is appreciated, but is there any way I could get an authoratative answer ? That is, who would know for certain which of these reasons is correct ? StuRat 06:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Try the highways people. Do they have a website?--Light current 07:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

W700i

I recently bought a new sony ericsson W700i. The included PC suite and the cd rom are corrupt. How can I transfer java games from my PC to my phone via the USB? I do not have any disk 2 phone software. Where should I copy the files of the game? Please give an elaborate reply..

You can download replacement software here. --Justanother 14:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Italian fish

We have seen a fish on Italian restaurant menus that we cannot find anywhere else to define what type of fish it actually is. Our host at Piccolo Angelo in NYC has Brazzini on the menu and claimed it was from Genoa, Italy. Can anyone help identify this fish for me? Vincent Lindgren

They had it misspelled - it is branzini, a Mediterranean or European Sea Bass; served topped with sea salt, recipe. Much more here

Branzini, a.k.a. Branzino, a.k.a. Loup de Mer ("Sea wolf"), is a just a plain old Mediterranean sea bass. They are usually about a pound whole, so they're perfect for a dinner for two. Have your fishmonger gut and scale your loup for you, and you'll be able to cook it up in 15 minutes flat.

--Justanother 15:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Cashing Out Retirement

Hi, if I left my job and wanted to cash out the retirement a tax I had been paying into how could I do that, or could I do that?

This is a legal-tax-accounting question that cannot be answered in a global forum because: 1. We don't do it. 2. We don't know where you are.... You could ask the Human Resources of your ditched company. They are forced to be nice to you. :) In almost all cases the pension can be transfered or some such thing. --Zeizmic 16:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I could answer general, high-level questions about U.S. retirement accounts, probably by pointing you to the proper IRS publication. You would need to know what type of account you have, in detail. If it is truly a "tax" you've been paying, like Social Security, you can't "get it back" until you retire or become disabled. -THB 21:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you can. Contact the trustee that has your qualified plan and they'll let you know how. You will generally want to read the Special Tax Notice on retirement plan payments issued from the IRS and direct any tax questions to your CPA or tax advisor. ~snak

Deliberate damage to a page

What happens if we realise that someone is editing a page just to destroy it?

I assume you mean on Wikipedia. In simple cases of WP:VAND someone will WP:REVERT it. You can do it too; be sure to know first what vandalism is. In particular differences of opinion are not, see WP:CON. Weregerbil 15:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Or you can report it here. Thanks.--Shantavira 18:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Bear in mind you cannot really 'destroy' a page; everything is light and trivial here on Wikipedia. If anything important is tampered with, it will invariably be noticed within minutes, corrected, and the culprit will be dealt with. And, vandalism does serve a useful purpose -- those that contribute constructively will feel validated that their work is important enough for someone to want to mess with. If Wikipedia didn't have vandals, that would likely mean that only sober, serious researchers looked at it. But of course the goal is to expand Wikipedia ad infinitum, both in content and audience. Theavatar3 18:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

ian...

1. can someone explain to me what is voip{voice over internet protocol}in laymans language
2. recently we were doing a course on windows 2000.we created our own user accounts and we logged in as administrators and were told to each have their own passwords.the next day i dint attend class,and am told the teacher actually hacked into my computer(is it possible)he dint use any software.he just tried some paswords.so my question is can some put a pasword that overides other paswords or sumthin,n he dint open the cpu.he just typed n 5 minutes or less later he was in...explain

1. VOIP describes a voice signal, being carried over an Internet Protocol network (i.e. the Internet itself). That's basically it.
2. Was this some sort of proof by him that it's possible, or why would he do this? If he himself had a system administrator account, he could use it to gain access to yours, since they can do that. Otherwise he may have just tried a bunch of common passwords and figured your own out because of its weakness, though this would have been easier for him with some sort of software. Passwords should have some completely random element to them to stop this type of attack. -- Consumed Crustacean (talk) 16:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Refer to computer ref desk.martianlostinspace 16:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

design standards for 1991 chevrolet head rests

Would anyone know where I could obtain the design standards for headrests - specifically for a 1991 chevrolet sprint convertible? I need to know how much force it would take to break one. I was rear-ended by a large truck 18 months ago and suffer major headaches and shoulder pain, but the insurer claims there was little damage. They keep downplaying the fact that my head broke the headrest in the accident (they willingly paid to repair the headrest!) I've tried Transport Canada and GM but neither could/would help me. GM said that sort of information is not published and would not be released to the general public, yet Transport Canada said only GM would have that info. Now it seems to me that there were design standards in 1991, so where would I find them? If I could say to the insurer ..."this is how much force these headrests were designed to take before they break", then I would have a fighting chance to prove that since my head was the object the headrest hit in order to get broken, then my medical claims are justified. Thanks very much for your help graceyjo 20:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Technically, those are considered trade secrets and no automobile company will reveal them, unless they are legally required to. I think your best bet would be to seek legal counsel, especially an attorney who specializes in auto accidents.--Folksong 03:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Some safety organization might have tested them, like NHTSA. You could try asking them. StuRat 07:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Culture Warrior

The US is caught in a tug of war between its contradicting cultures. Bill orielly found a very daisy topic to debate on. It brings a clear confusion today in the minds of majority of westerners whether freedom needs to be valued or there is just impatience for desires. The conflict between the traditional views and those of the secular progressive clearly reflects the confusion. It highlights the importance of education amongst the youth. Liberty is being abused. America wants to fall back on traditional values to reflect a better perspective of the american values in the world. What exactly is the underlying themeline behind the book? Does America want to offer freedom or materialistic freedom or its perception or mindset at looking at things in life?

Or will the traditionals start stringent measures of kicking out the illegals and become racists?

20:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)~~

What book? 202.168.50.40 20:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Culture Warrior --Justanother 20:47, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Your question is not phrased in a way that makes a lot of sense. We can try to help you with specific questions, if you make it clear what the specific question is. If you just want to discuss opinions, this is a matter for a debate forum, not Wikipedia. Friday (talk) 20:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The appropriate question I see here would be regarding just what is the theme of the book. Probably belongs on the Humanities desk. --Justanother 20:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

I take the view that America and 'the terrorists' are the same culture -- the culture of desperatation, confusion, and boredom. Theavatar3 05:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Is that a comment on the nature of the theme of the book? --Justanother 05:41, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

All books are purely autobiographical. Theavatar3 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The point of concern here is the extreme to which the west tries to deliberate on such issues wasting time on pointless matters. The americans went into Iraq to give freedom and the irony is that today their emphasis is on traditional perspective, which emphasizes on curbing freedom of the minority communities especially muslims and kicking out the illegal mexicans who also want to aspire for a superior quality of life... 20:42, 5 December 2006 (UTC)~

Life and the World

Why does the end of the world often come? Will there be a beginning afterwards? 71.31.154.248 21:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you want a religious viewpoint or a scientific viewpoint? From a scientific viewpoint, it hasn't come yet (as we know of), and on a religious viewpoint, you could read up on Apocalypse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.67.249 (talk) 21:50, 4 December 2006

If you are interested in the scientific viewpoint, you could ask on the Science Reference Desk, and if in the religious viewpoint, the Humanities Desk. -THB 23:37, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Soprry we must only give factual answers --- no viewpoints anymore! 8-(--Light current 01:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If this was meant as a scientific question, see oscillating universe. StuRat 07:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Maimonides states in the Guide for the Perplexed that the world will probably not end, but there is no way to prove one way or the other. see wikisource:The Guide for the Perplexed (Friedlander)/Part II/Chapters#CHAPTER XXVII.Jon513 17:29, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Go find a jehovah witness.

If am not mistaken, the Japanese samurai realized that the end of the world was already upon them. This was evidenced in the fact that eye treatment for females yielded favorable results when applied to males. Theavatar3 18:49, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Scientology a cult?

I personaly think that scientology is a cult, but I am wondering whether other people think that way. It seems to me, that it at least is dangerous to babies (because of the honey for babies under one year) but I am really curious whether other people think so. Thank you for your opinions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.67.249 (talk) 21:49, 4 December 2006

"Cult" is a bit of a loaded term. See Scientology and cult for more info. It wouldn't be appropriate for us to get into our own personal opinions here- that's a matter for a forum, not an encyclopedia. Friday (talk) 21:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia RD isn't a discussion board, but you will find one regarding the negative side of Scientology on THIS SITE, I'm sure they'll welcome your input. Anchoress 21:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

thank you :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.249.67.249 (talk) 22:01, 4 December 2006

You are certainly entitled to your personal opinion. I just hope it is based on a greater exposure to Scientology and Scientologists than Clambake and YTMND. The baby formula was developed in the 50's before anything was known about infant botulism (a very rare disease, BTW). Most Scientologists I know do not use it; they breastfeed or use the much better commercial formulas that are now available. That seems hardly a reason to condemn a group of people you don't know. --Justanother 22:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Many people agree with you that Scientology is a harmful cult but I have not heard such an argument based on feeding babies honey. Another article you might read that is probably linked to from those already mentioned is Xenu. -THB 23:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, IMO, the wikipedia articles were mainly written by critics of Scientology and reflect their viewpoints. While experienced Scientologists such as myself are working on removing ingrained POV, there is still a VERY lot of work to be done. Look at the critics' sites but do not be afraid of or biased against looking at the What is Scientology site too. Think for yourself! --Justanother 00:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

In order to do my part to maintain order and prevent this becoming a soapbox or forum for discussion I will not contribute further on this thread but, as always, welcome communication on my talk page. --Justanother 00:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

People who go into the Scientology fold and then reveal its inner workings to the world at large are said to engage in 'squirreling' by the betrayed members. This shows that the tenants of Scientology are not meant for the world at large -- they are 'secret teachings'. I think if any line were to be drawn between 'cult' and 'religion', it would be that the latter is inclusive while the former is not. Theavatar3 05:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it's clear that a high degree of secrecy is a feature most people associate with cults. StuRat 07:16, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The practice of requiring money (usually for "readings" or "classes") to go up in "levels" is not something most people would accept in a legitimate church. StuRat 09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, how "weird" the beliefs of a church are determines whether they are accepted as a legit sect or called a cult. And some Scientology beliefs, like "an Operating Thetan VIII (the highest OT level released so far) can purportedly kill with a thought", are definitely "out there". StuRat 09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Yet another factor is age, with older religions being taken more seriously. Scientology is quite recent (dating from 1952), so lacks the legitimacy of an old, established religion. (Note, I don't personally agree with this standard for defining a cult.) StuRat 09:53, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

One thing that might be argued to be in favor of Scientology being a mainstream religion is that they have many, seemingly mainstream, members, who are well-known to the public, like John Travolta and Kirstie Alley. This isn't an accident, however, as they actively seek celebrities in order to achieve this sense of legitimacy. StuRat 09:58, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

No smoke without fire. It seems to be like some sort of pyramid selling scheme involving 'new age' ideas - wierd.87.102.32.250 12:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

To be a pyramid scheme/Ponzi scheme, the people at higher levels would need to get paid when they recruit people at the lower levels. I'm not aware of this happening, are you ? StuRat 12:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well according to the wikipedia article people get paid commission to recruit others, so there is an element of cash incentive. --Charlesknight 22:25, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that the first approach of scientology is often psychological profiling through detailed questionnaires (that show an genial understanding of human psychology) and then tailoring further contacts according to the personality traits gives scientology an enormous power of influence on its selected targets (its a modern form of confession : know the sins of your parish gives you enormous power on the flock and instructing them to perform tasks irrelevant to the sin secures your influence on them). Scientology wants to make its adepts better and freer humans (or is it thetans?) and many of its participant must believe their doing good to the world. The fact that their mythology is a compression of fashionable 50's sci-fi themes with salvatory teleology with a tendency towards total control doesn't help its credibility in my eyes. Keria 13:30, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are the questions for their 1st test.

• 5. Do you intend two or less children in your family even though your health and income will permit more? = have yougot extra cash?
• 29. Would you rather give orders than take them? = are you going to be a manager or just a regular sheep?
• 31. Could you agree, to strict discipline ? = how much can we control you?
• 47. Have you any particular hate or fear? = so we can exploit it?
• 52. Would you "buy on credit" with the hope that you can keep up the payments? = are you any good at managing money?
• 28. Are you considered warm-hearted by your friends? 64.Are you normally considered "cold"? 69.Does emotional music have quite an effect on you? = which carrot are we going to give you to make you join us?
• 88. If we were invading another country, would you feel sympathetic towards conscientious objectors in this country? that one is just great who's the "we" anyway?
• 89. Are there some things about yourself on which you are touchy? If thats not planning a good conversation...
• 99. Do you prefer to take a passive role in any club or organization to which you belong? etc... and a hundred more.

Now the problem with sects and totalitarian organisations is one could ask wether they might have some beneficial aspects to them, beneficial to society or the individual. I'm having a hard time finding one for scientology (isn't it a great name for a sect reminds me of truthiness. Keria 17:01, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

There are a set of 4 lectures on this topic on google video. one, two, three, four. Jon513 17:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Without addressing any of the issues here I simply comment that this thread has become quite a forum for heavily biased original research and unsupported hate talk and I, for one, am finding it quite offensive. I doubt we would tolerate a similar discussion of the Jews or gays or blacks or, well, anyone, and it speaks perfectly to my remark about ingrained bias against Scientologists on wikipedia. --Justanother 18:32, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

" ... reality has a well-known liberal bias." Stephen Colbert quotes. Keria 21:21, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

searching for definition for phrase "bite me"

Ejfuasu 23:01, 4 December 2006 (UTC)My thirteen year old daughter thinks that it ok to use this term in casual conversation. After argueing with her about it, I decided to get a third party invelved. Please tell me how I can find this phrases meaning. Thankyou for your time. Eric

A very good reference for such things is Urban Dictionary. This is a user edited website for slang terms. You might also be interested in the Wiktionary entry on the term.—WAvegetarian•(talk) 23:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Try Urban dictionary entry for Bite mebeaten to the punch by the above. Unfortunately when television shows like The Simpsons freely use these terms, kids will think they are acceptable. Maybe you need to explain that it doesn't matter if it is a swear word or not, telling someone to get lost isn't nice, even if it isn't a swear word. Vespine 23:12, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Ditto on using urbandictionary as a reference. You didn't ask, but my opinion is that it's vaguely sexual but relatively mild as far as foul language goes. Vespine is right, it's the underlying message that is rude, more than the actual choice of words. However, it IS funny when Bart says it. Certainly your daughter shouldn't say it to adults, but if used in a joking or friendly manner between her and her friends, there are worse things for you to worry about. It's probably not worth arguing about because it's not likely you'll win, so consider saving your ammunition for something more immediately harmful. -THB 23:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

As a sidenote, I think it's interesting that you think to have a third party (other than the other parent of the child) involved in your parenting. Dismas|^(talk) 04:57, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a grey area he didn't feel 100% confident with, and I wish my parents had gotten a third opinion occasionally. -THB 05:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the fact that Eric didn't end the argument with, "I'm right and your parent. You're wrong and my child. This is the end of the discussion as my opinion counts for more than yours." I think it shows good parenting. Eric is teaching his daughter not to abuse power relationships and good dispute resolution tactics. There is also no reason to assume that there is another parent around. —WAvegetarian•(talk) 05:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe this started off as a rather graphic sexual insult, but has become a very mild insult with time. A similar insult, "bugger" (originally meaning a man who engages in anal sex with boys), has come to have a much more mild meaning in the UK. Another example: "that sucks". StuRat 07:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Better placed on Language desk.--Light current 07:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It's also a parenting question, perhaps more so. -THB 07:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

It is equivalent to "Eat me!" or "Blow me!" in meaning and in terms of being fighting words. Edison 15:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Not in the US. Here, "bite me" is much more mild. StuRat 17:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that answer is that "blow me", for instance, has (at least) a couple of very different meanings; one sexual, and one indicating surprise. --Tagishsimon (talk) 15:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

So that explains Popeye always saying "Blow me down !"...I always wondered about that. :-) StuRat 17:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

"Blow me" is only sexual in the U.S. It's extremely vulgar. -THB 17:44, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

A large number of U.S. people are vulgarians. Just like in any other country. JackofOz 01:30, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Popeye is using a nautical reference rather than the sexual term. It may have devolved to an only slightly rude inference in the U.S., but it was definitely a more clever fighting word synonym for the other vulgarities at one point. It was clear what portion of the anatomy the other person was invited to bite. Not, say, the elbow. Edison 15:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Hiroshima & Nagaski

Did the restoration of these two cities after their bombing occur on the orginal sites or were they move as a result of the effects of long term radition to other locations?

The original sites. --Wooty Woot? contribs 00:04, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The Hiroshima Peace Memorial is almost directly beneath where the bomb went off. Vespine 00:08, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If you go on Google Earth and type in "Hiroshima, Japan" you can match it up exactly with the pictures of the fire damage to Hiroshima from our Hiroshima bombing article. --24.147.86.187 01:28, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Is the radioactive levels on those areas still dangerous today? Joneleth 18:34, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Almost certainly not. I'd rather spend the rest of my days under the epicenter of the blast than smoke a single cigar. Speaking from extreme ignorance and foolishness, though, I might change my mind if I were to actually visit either city, or smoke a single cigar. Theavatar3 18:52, 6 December 2006 (UTC)