Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 October 24

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October 24

Is there a word for this:

... a speaker of Chinese is learning Japanese, and they pronounce all the kanji with the modern mandarin reading but the kana as Japanese. So, for example:

最近の出来事へようこそ: zui xin no chulaishi he youkoso. Duomillia (talk) 03:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

What about native Japanese readings? Would 出ます be read chu-masu?

There are cases which mix lexical vocab from one language with grammatical inflections from another, or where nouns come from A and verbs from B. These are called mixed languages. But this isn't a case of actual language, so that wouldn't be an appropriate term. There probably is a specific term out there somewhere. kwami (talk) 04:53, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Could this be a phenomenon a bit like Franglais? Astronaut (talk) 12:51, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's a word for this, specifically, although it is something I do. I learnt Japanese years ago, but have forgotten most of it in favour of Chinese, so when trying to decipher some Japanese, I'd read it to myself like the OP example. It reminds me of the old Japanese method of reading Classical Chinese. There would be markers on the text to assist a Japanese speaker to see the Classical Chinese and read it aloud in Japanese. Now I wish I could remember what that was called, because this phenomenon is heading towards the reverse. Steewi (talk) 02:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

出ます　in Japanese is pronounced as: DE-MA-SU. The DE (で) means to exit in this context. You cannot pronounce Chinese when reading Japanese; it's a totally different language. Eons ago, Japanese did not have a written form to their language and were fascinated by the Chinese writing system and adopted it. They still pronounce everything differently but use the same characters for meanings when describing something, which is why it can be inferred from reading (not listening) the other language roughly what is being talked about. -- penubag  (talk) 09:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Old Irish pronunciations

I'm helping someone who's translating an Arthurian historical novel (The Winter King by Bernard Cornwell) into Korean with the transcription of proper names. There are some Old Irish names and terms that appear, and I've decided to transcribe them based on the reconstructed Old Irish pronunciations. These are my best guesses after examining the Wikipedia article on Old Irish and following the conventions there, but I'm sure I've made mistakes. Could you check whether the following are correct?

• Cruachan /ˈkruaxan/
• Ailleann /ˈaLʲaN/
• Cadalcholg -> Caladcholg /ˈkaladxolg/
• Lughnasa /ˈLuɣnasa/
• Lughtigern /ˈLuɣtʲigʲern/
• Oengus Mac Airem /ˈoiŋgus mak ˈarʲem/
• Ui Liathain /ˈui Lʲiaθanʲ/
• fili /ˈfʲilʲi/

--Iceager (talk) 06:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, let's see. "Cruachan" is spelled Crúachán in Old Irish and pronounced [ˈkruaxaːn]. "Ailleann" is a modern spelling; the Old Irish spelling would be "Aillenn" (or "Aillend") and pronounced [ˈaLʲeN]. "Caladcholg" isn't a name I'm familiar with; it seems to mean something like "hard spear-point" and would be pronounced [ˈkalaðˌxolɡ]. "Lughnasa" is a modernish spelling; the Old Irish spelling was "Lugnasad" and the pronunciation was [ˈLuɣnasað]. "Lughtigern" is spelled "Lugthigern" in Old Irish and pronounced [ˈLuɣˌθʲiɣʲeRN]. "Óengus Mac Airem" is [ˈoinɣus mak ˈarʲeṽ] I guess, though "Airem" doesn't look like a genitive (which names after "Mac" should usually be). "Uí Líatháin" is [ˈui Lʲiaθaːnʲ], and "fili" you got right! Note: "L", "N", and "R" are not actually IPA symbols; they're used conventionally in Old Irish studies to represent the "tense sonorants" (as opposed to the "lax sonorants" transcribed "l", "n", and "r"). For purposes of transcription into Korean you can probably ignore the distinction. +Angr 09:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the detailed explanations, and also for supplying the correct Old Irish and modern spellings! Cornwell's Celtic names are all over the place, plucked seemingly at random from different time periods, dialects, and orthographic conventions, so I wouldn't expect the Old Irish names to be all authentic and consistent. I'm lucky that for transcription into Korean I don't have to worry about the tense vs lax distinctions, any vowel length distinctions, or even most broad vs slender distinctions. --Iceager (talk) 10:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to ask again, but could you check a couple more?

• Crom Dubh /kroṽ duv/
• Beltain /ˈbʲeltinʲ/

--Iceager (talk) 11:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The first one is "Cromm Dub" in Old Irish spelling; [krom duv], the second is "Beltaine" [bʲeLtɨnʲe]. +Angr 11:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks again! --Iceager (talk) 00:48, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

But haven't you got tense consonants in Korean, just waiting to be used for the Irish ones? --ColinFine (talk) 01:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Trouble is, Korean has only tense obstruents, Old Irish only tense sonorants. And "tenseness" is an incredibly vague concept that people tend to appeal to whenever a language has a contrast they don't know how else to explain. +Angr 17:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, 'l' and 'r' in other languages are represented by a single phoneme 'ㄹ' in Korean, pronounced either as a lateral or a flap depending on the position, so we don't have much to work with. Korean tense obstruents rather than 'plain' obstruents in fact correspond most closely to the voiceless unaspirated obstruents in many languages acoustically. The Korean system of contrasts doesn't match up neatly with many other languages, which is why the 'tense' obstruents are used only for transcribing Thai and Vietnamese in the official South Korean system. --Iceager (talk) 13:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Swadesh-type list

OK, if you're building a conlang, you probably know about the Swadesh List, and you've likely added all the words on the list into your language. But suppose you want to build your language further. And suppose you want such a list to serve as your aid so you cover similar concepts. Is there any list out there that covers basic, long-lasting words present in most languages, but doesn't stop at 200? A list with 1,000 words, perhaps? Subliminable (talk) 06:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Many of the Swadesh words aren't particularly long-lasting. There are lots of "the 1000 most frequent words in language X" lists out there, but the individual entries are often so culture dependent that it's hard to compare them. kwami (talk) 06:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the nouns, adjectives, adverbs and verbs in Basic English lists could be used as a guide. There are a lot of grammatical words that aren't necessary in the list, but it's inspiration, nonetheless. Remember, as you probably already know, that one-to-one semantic correspondences between languages are far less common than most people think. Categories should be expanded and divided as seems approbriate for the language culture. Steewi (talk) 02:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Toward

My physics teacher's newest way to bug the crap out of me is that he keeps pronouncing the word toward as "tOR-word". We have been talking about sound and the Doppler effect (which he spells "affect"), so the idea of sounds moving away from and torward a listener has come up a lot lately. So my question... Is this some regional thing that I have, as yet, not encountered? (He was born and raised here in Vermont) Or is this likely his own pronunciation issue? For the record, he also pronounces entropy as "enthropy" and the Greek letter lambda as "lam-buh". Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 06:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

A very common General American pronunciation of 'toward' is [tɔɹd], as if it was spelled 'tord'. So he might be merely mixing the first element of this pronunciation with a spelling pronunciation where the '-ward' is pronounced separately, as in 'backward'. Or it might be interference from 'forward' [fɔrwərd]. Given his other pronunciation issues that you report, I'd say it's likely to be a personal idiosyncrasy rather than a regional thing, but I'm not too familiar with Vermont speech. --Iceager (talk) 08:22, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

If he's a decent physics teacher maybe you can find it in your heart to forgive him his little faults. He doesn't sound half as bad as a certain president who used to say 'nucular', and quite often. Another, more confrontational, option might be for you to choose a commonly used word and pronounce it in a 'different' way, if he picks up on it you will have the opportunity to explain how everybody has their own way of speaking, for instance . . . Caesar's Daddy (talk) 09:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

You do realise that most of the UK pronounces it like that (including me)? For most people here (not all), nuc-la sounds forced and unnecessarily abrupt. - Jarry1250 ^{[ In the UK? Sign the petition! ]} 11:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

He's not a very good teacher at all which makes these things really that much worse. And thanks for the suggestion but I'm not the vindictive type towards those who aren't knowingly evil. Dismas|^(talk) 09:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

_{OK, fair does} Caesar's Daddy (talk) 16:27, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

My high school English (!) teacher used to pronounce viscount to rhyme with discount, and didn't even understand me when I (at age 15) pronounced it correctly. +Angr 10:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe we can have an annual cere-MOAN-y where all these people are put up against a wall and shot, for what Professor Higgins described as "the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue".  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 14:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

"Just you wite, 'Enry 'Iggins, just you wite! ... The Rhine in Spine sties minely in the Pline!" Sometimes folks see or hear something incorrectly when they're round young virgins, and it sticks with them quite awhile. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Most of us (including teachers) mis-pronounce a few words, often ones that we have seen in print and have imagined hearing before we have heard them correctly pronounced. What is surprising is that some people don't seem to correct their pronunciation when they do hear the correct version. Sometimes the reason is that they are slightly deaf, and don't hear some consonants clearly. Why not write a spelling and pronunciation guide especially for your teacher, and send it anonymously? Dbfirs 18:59, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Hopefully that "put up against a wall and shot"would include the Microbiology lecturer here who continually referred to "Muh-CRAW-ganisms". Grutness...wha? 14:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Have you considered he may be doing it to see if you're still listening? --TammyMoet (talk) 20:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

That's nothing compared to how one of my Japanese teachers used to pronounce the word 'fact' - it always caught our attention during reading classes and she would tell us 'this story is fact!'. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 01:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It would certainly throw me off a little bit. —Dromioofephesus (talk) 05:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

You should've seen my Spanish teacher, who had difficulties with both "focus" and "sheet" --Rimush (talk) 16:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I once worked with a Vietnamese who overused the word 'upon' and pronounced it /ˈjupɔn/. —Tamfang (talk) 19:16, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

read and write

how to read and write in a better/proper way or how can I get involved with wiki inorder to improve my writing and reading skills. is there any reference book for this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.176.36.194 (talk) 13:57, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the rule of thumb is--attention and practice. So the best way is following of some editors about how they do things. If I can also do it (at least in reasonable standards), I daresay you can easily. -Mihkaw napéw (talk) 16:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed -- I find that I attain clarity and finer articulation skills by arguing points on Wikipedia talk pages and reference desks, even when I lose an argument. Embracing new words and how to use them are perhaps the best things you can pick up. DRosenbach ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 17:22, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

It's a good idea to sign your comments. At the end of your comments simply type four tildes (~), like this: ~~~~. Bus stop (talk) 17:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It is not easy in an open media if one can not take critics or not ready to loose arguments against their counterparts whose arguments are reasonable and logical. If you wan to make good contributions, take few contributors for example and check how they do. However, some editors do never loose arguments, and all of their contributions have their logical reasoning (most of them are of social scientists or other academicians). --Mihkaw napéw (talk) 21:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Maghrebi Arabic Translation?

Hey, I speak Egyptian Arabic, but can't really understand Maghrebi Arabic very well (especially when transliterated!). Does anyone know what this means: ohhibu allughah arabia... walakin lughati al arabia laisat kama yajib.. :( athaaju an atadarraba

I know the first part means "I like the Arabic language....but my Arabic ....."(that is where I got lost). Any help would be appreciated, thanks! Eiad77 (talk) 17:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I have trouble with transliteration too, but I think it's "...but my arabic is not like it must be.. :(" after that it's probably something like "excuse (my) schooling". Wrad (talk) 17:12, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

This is not Maghrebi Arabic but plain Fus'ha in Latin script, by the way. --BishkekRocks (talk) 20:34, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, thanks a lot! Eiad77 (talk) 21:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Igor Kurchatov

Apologies if this should be posted somewhere else. On the Igor Kurchatov biography the following content was removed, "Only after the dissolution of the Soviet Union was it revealed by close family members and colleagues that Kurchatov was a gay. Although married he had several same-sex affairs, which were kept secret by family and friends."("Biografiya I.V. Kurchatova", Semyon Golosov, Moscow, 1994, page 156-163.) It was re-added several times as sourced content but now the sourcing and factuality are both being disputed. Any lead as to confirming either? Allegedly this was widely reported in Russian media in the 1990s. Any help appreciated. -- Banjeboi 18:27, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

(Old) German surname

I just found the article on Heinrich Friedrich Karl vom und zum Stein. I speak (a bit of) German but I don't understand what is up with that surname? Specifically the vom und zum Stein bit. Can anyone explain this to me? Cheers, Joe^Talk_Work 20:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Von is a nobiliary particle in German, i.e. it is a particle used in the last names of the nobility. Some last names use zu rather than von, and some use both: von und zu, e.g. Georg von und zu Franckenstein, Karl Ludwig Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg, Johann Rudolf Czernin von und zu Chudenitz, etc. And some actually have the definite article after the von und zu, e.g. Ludwig Freiherr von und zu der Tann-Rathsamhausen with the feminine dative definite article. So what Heinrich Friedrich Karl vom und zum Stein has is the masculine dative definite article dem having coalesced with the von and the zu separately, making vom und zum. I've never seen that before either. +Angr 22:09, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I have the impression that von und zu could be loosely translated from and over, that is, "my family takes its name from X and we are the lords of X". (A bit like the Scots of that Ilk.) Am I far off? —Tamfang (talk) 19:21, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Horse A was "foaled by" horse B

What does it mean for a horse to be "foaled"? Born or conceived? I am guessing "born", but if so, then how can "foaled by" refer to the horse's male parent, rather than the female parent?

I am writing this because the article Potoooooooo makes use of this terminology, without explanation and without apology. It does not even give a link to clarify the terminology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.136.211 (talk) 20:50, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Wow, pan-wiki does a pretty poor job of explaining it. It doesn't explain it at Horse breeding either. Wiktionary (also dicitonary.com) says it means "give birth" so I don't know how a male could do it. My guess would be that Potoooooooo is using it incorrectly, instead of "fathering" or something. —Akrabbim^talk 21:15, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

I think the male "sires" the foal. Deor (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

To foal according to the Collins dictionary means 'to give birth to' when referring to a horse. Richard Avery (talk) 21:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

A related issue: in horse-racing circles, a horse is often described as being "by X, out of Y", meaning X was the male parent (yes, "sired" is correct) and Y was the female parent. Grutness...wha? 23:07, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of, could do with a redirect from Pot-8-Os. 86.144.144.110 (talk) 18:45, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Wavelength. 86.144.144.110 (talk) 22:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)