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October 23[edit]

LOTR questions: Last sentence in Theoden's speech[edit]

These are crossover questions of entertainment and language - I decided to post them here.

Undoubtedly the most famous and popular scene in the Lord of the Rings film trilogy is the Rohirrim charge at Minas Tirith. King Theoden delivers his eve-of-battle speech, ending in the final sentence "Ride to/for (?) ruin and the world's ending!"... HD Video.

Does he say "Ride to ruin..." or "Ride for ruin..." - I really can't decide. The creator of the subtitles heard the latter version, but the former has more supporters on the web.
Does this make a difference? Are both versions correct English, and if so, is there a divergence in meaning?
AFAICS "... and the world's ending." can be interpreted in two completely different ways: "... and the world is ending." or "... and the ending of the world." I presume the latter is the right interpretation (is it?), but would the former be at least correct English and make sense?
I don't understand the point in proclaiming the end of the world... they want to raze the evil, not the world as a whole?! So why?

--KnightMove (talk) 20:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Subtitles on movie DVDs are generated from a published script whenever possible. Therefore, I would assume he actually says "for" rather than "to", matching the script. I have noticed subtle differences in the text of the subtitles when the actual dialog was inprovised or embellished when filming. I agree that "the world's ending" means "...the ending of the world" in this case. While the contraction "world's" (meaning "world is") is also correct in English, it would make more sense if it came at the beginning of the sentence or as a sentence by itself. Thomprod (talk) 20:47, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tolkien would not have put a contracted present progressive verb in the mouth of an Anglo-Saxon king making a formal pronouncement. Next we'd have Smaug tell Bilbo "I'ma kill all o' yiz. μηδείς (talk) 20:56, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your joke imitates some American underclass slang, doesn't it? --KnightMove (talk) 05:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't characterize it in terms of "underclass", but essentially, yes. Literally, "I am going to kill all of you (pl)." "I'ma" (pronounced /ama/) is typical of black speech, "yiz" is typical of NE white working class speech. μηδείς (talk) 16:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's worth recalling that in the actual book, these words (with "to" rather than "for") are not spoken by Theoden but are cried out to the Rohirrim by Eomer, in his wrath and despair after the death of Theoden and (he thinks) Eowyn. It's not surprising that in his fey mood Eomer should expect their fate to be ruin and "the world's ending". I haven't seen the films, but this appears to be one of the, perhaps many, instances of Jackson's making senseless changes. Deor (talk) 21:06, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yo Bard, I'm real happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but Earendeil slaying Ancalagon was the one of the best dragon-slayings of all time. OF ALL TIME! Adam Bishop (talk) 21:23, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

LOL. Imagine trying to explain that last inside joke to a Martian reading the Ref Desk. Hehehe. μηδείς (talk) 21:26, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen uncounted DVDs in which it was clear that the subtitlers did not have access to the script, so I guess it's not often possible. —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most famous and popular? I barely remember this scene... Dismas|^(talk) 02:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You remain free to that, but the bare number of Youtube videos hardly leaves any doubt. --KnightMove (talk) 05:09, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay but I would have put my money on A) Gollum's death scene or B) Gandalf riding down and saving the day at the attack on Helm's Deep. Dismas|^(talk) 16:24, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See, and I would have put money on the fact that the "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" scene of Gandalf vs. the Balrog would have been the most famous, well known, and cited passage from the trilogy. --Jayron32 17:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Whereupon the Balrog, truly pissed at having to repeat a grade, decided to get even. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And then spread his wings and flew off to the eagles to suggest flying the ring to Mount Doom. Sjö (talk) 09:23, 27 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]