Original - The largest known Theropods relative to a human.Edit 1 - Redrawn, incorporating information from seven sources. Please see the image page for details.
Reason
Large informative encyclopedic image that gets the reader's attention and makes the subject more interesting. Useful at a variety of articles.
Support as conominator --Dhatfield (talk) 08:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I know that this is a size comparison thing, but the realism/accuracy of the drawings are no where near FP level. The front limbs and teeth of the dinosaurs are particularly amateurish/unrealistic, and I dislike how the humans left arm gets "absorbed" into his body. --Fir0002 09:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Original and Edit Per Fir's comments + would like to see some more organic colours used Capital photographer (talk) 12:44, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Suspend Please suspend this nomination until I have addressed the above concerns. Dhatfield (talk) 14:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)Dhatfield (talk) 21:52, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As it is suspended, I won't vote, but I find it a bit frustrating that I can't see the red one's tail - does it even have one? isn't that quite an important aspect of the size of them? Its the odd one out in the diagram in that respect. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs) 15:28, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Is the posture of the dinosaurs actually correct? All of them except the red one appear to be lunging for the human figure - or else they are falling on their noses. Rmhermen (talk) 16:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Postures have been peer reviewed at WP:Dinosaur Image review. Therapods had their long tails for counter ballance.deBivort 20:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What's the deal with the brown one apparently having only one leg?... Mangostar (talk) 22:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment One dinosaur is missing a leg and its bottom teeth, those with teeth are poorly drawn. They look like a child's drawings, cartoons rather than scientific visual aids that would be of value to someone doing research. Capital photographer (talk) 07:41, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
While the illustration is fairly basic and appears to have been traced, the point of it is not necessarily to be an accurate and detailed depiction of the animals, just their basic shape and proportions to illustrate comparative size. That said, it would be more visually pleasing if the illustration was of higher quality. This is what separates typical from FP quality diagrams/illustrations so in that sense I have to agree with you. Diliff | (Talk)(Contribs) 11:08, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Work with the alpha channel! Also, how instructive is this illustration really, given that these creatures are very similar in size? What do we learn from it that couldn't be illustrated using text? Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 11:21, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Despite the generally counterproductive nature of responding in FP noms, since we're heading into WP:SNOW territory fast anyway...
Even if this is true, it detracts from its value as a visual aid because it is strange to have four dinos with two legs visible and one with one leg visible. Also, the largest dinosaur is standing but we can see both its legs. Mangostar (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Capital photographer - skin colour is a complete guess in scientific circles, see this and this for a green and a red version of the same dinosaur. Since the colours are meaningless, why not help the visually impared? The teeth on the lower jaw of the Carcharodontosaurus are not shown because the source images do not show teeth - quite possibly because a lower jaw has not been found. I don't intend to 'make up' detail. Not sure if your comment regarding the poor quality of illustration of the teeth is with respect to the edit - teeth in the original were admittedly dire due to pixelation in the source. In response to your concerns about scientific content, see the response to Papa Lima Whiskey below.
I know that. Hence I said more organic colours, in other words, colours more common in nature. I didn't ask for an approximation of what dinosaurs may have being coloured like, just some more apropriate colours other than bright red, green,etc. Capital photographer (talk) 06:46, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Diliff - red tail now inserted in proportion with the dinosaur, accuracy improved beyond the information available in the original down to approx. 1/10 pixel of the original. No comment with regards to aesthetic 'quality' - I don't have the required perspective. Dhatfield (talk) 15:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To Papa Lima Whiskey - firstly, thanks for your advice, but there are technical reasons for not working with the alpha channel:
Some software does not support gradient transparency, reducing interoperability and maintainability for the image
The WP renderer has problems with some transparency mappings, as I experienced with this image.
Secondly, you may not be looking as closely as a student would. Among what we can learn is: Tyrannosaurus rex had very small forelimbs relative to the other Theropods and two fingers, but was more heavily built in the body with a larger head. Spinosaurus, the largest, had a 'sail', a very uneven distribution of teeth and unusual skull shape relative to the other large Theropods. Gigantosaurus, despite its name, was a large but otherwise 'middle of the road' Theropod with a balance of power (Tyrannosaurus Rex) and agility (Mapusaurus). Mapusaurus and Carcharodontosaurus, despite their size, were built for speed and agility with body shapes similar to the smaller Eustreptospondylus. If you were a student who dug a little deeper you would note that according to the Theropod phylogeny, Gigantosaurus, Mapusaurus & Carcharodontosaurus belong to the family Carcharodontosauridae, explaining their similarity while Tyrannosauroidea and especially Spinosauridae are on divergent branches. You might then notice that Carcharodontosauridae isn't shown in the phylogeny and ask the maintainers why, thus improving Wikipedia. Anything can be illustrated with enough text but a picture is worth 50 words, minimum. Dhatfield (talk) 15:19, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It is not easy to see the differences in overall size between these, due to the lack of transparency that I mentioned that would also allow you to follow body outlines more closely. The last time that Wikipedia had problems rendering a file, the nomination was suspended until the bug got fixed, rather than the file promoted with the necessary features removed. To illustrate differences in arm length or shape, it would be better to make a separate diagram, because people won't know what to focus on with the minimal information you initially provided to go along with this image. (I could also mention that the detail on jaws and forelimbs feels vague for a vector image, but Fir already said that.) Finally, making one diagram to point out that another one is missing something borders on WP:POINT and is not a good reason for promotion. We have an abundance of templates for pointing out problems. Please use these, or be bold yourself. Thank you. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 15:33, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The bug you refer to was my edit :) Unfortunately, given that flesh is not preserved by the fossilisation process, all images of dinosaurs are artists conceptions - I'd rather not add to a long and proud tradition of making stuff up. Fair comment regarding the caption, but I'd prefer if it was written by someone more knowledgeable than myself - deBivort? I don't get the WP:POINT reference - this image was in no way made to point out the phylogeny problem, I just learned it while researching the answer to your question. You think I'd do that to achieve that? I'd praise the man who channels his frustration so productively. Fir0002's comment was regarding the original and the edit was a direct result - please keep the crit specific, otherwise I can't work from it. Thanks. Dhatfield (talk) 16:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First, I'm saying if you are going to use the effect of this image on the fate of another image as an argument to get this image promoted, then, yes, I do believe you are committing a WP:POINT violation. Maybe that is not what you were aiming for. Second, I believe I have been quite specific in my criticism. General consensus among palaeontologists suggests that the shape of hands and fingers closely follows the bone structure. We have no reason to assume otherwise, as bulky soft tissue on the appendages is a very rare occurrence among extant animals. So if you want to draw accurate hands, just imagine the bones with a bit of skin on them, and you'll be fine. Alternatively, sticking to the skeleton entirely would be an acceptable solution afaik. In your diagram you (or rather, the people whose drawings you used as models) have already extrapolated soft tissue between the ribs and pelvis, for instance. The bottom line for me is that an image should not get promoted in spite of technical insufficiencies, just because the requirements haven't been implemented yet. In fact, part of your argument seems to equate to saying that because it's possible to make video players that interpret various video formats incorrectly (and there probably are some), we should promote stills instead of videos whenever a video is required. I hope this makes it clear enough that you are acting on a flaw of logic. Papa Lima Whiskey (talk) 17:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawn as co-nominator Fair comments. Individual dinosaur images of sufficient quality to constitute FP material when combined should constitute high quality achievements in their own right. Dhatfield (talk) 16:40, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
