Talk:Welsh rarebit/Archive 1

cheese on toast

I get the impression 'cheese on toast' and 'Welsh rarebit'/'rabbit' aren't quite the same thing. Cheese on toast tends to be simply made of cheese and toast. OK, so the toast may've been buttered, and we used to often add paprika, but that's a bit of an aside. And we sliced the cheese rather than grating it, as is probably common. One cookery book said of its Welsh rarebit (forgive me if it's not the exact words): "This may seem a lot of effort to make cheese on toast, but it is a superior product." -- Smjg 13:49, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't think they have really diverged yet, but I do agree that anyone who calls it "Welsh rabbit" (or even "Welsh rarebit") is likely to be taking more care over it, and maybe adding ingredients of their own devising, because it implies some degree of awareness that it is an actual recipe not just an accidental combination of ingredients. I think paprika improves it, too - and have you tried a sprinkling of oregano? seglea 18:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I personally recommend: Start with a half-cup of good brown ale, warm in a saucepan, stir in some English mustard (e.g., Coleman's), a shot of Worchestershire sauce, and enough grated extra-sharp Cheddar to make a good, thick glop. Meanwhile, take some slices of a hearty bread (sourdough is good, whole wheat is better) and put in a 300 degree oven until dry and toasty, turning once. Apply glop liberally to toast, and consume with the rest of the ale (unless you drank it while cooking). JHCC 18:52, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I was brought up in Wales (although I'm not convinced the dish is Welsh; carrying as it does a slur on the Welsh in its name), and to me a rarebit was always a completely different dish to cheese on toast. The distinction was that rarebit was grilled cheese sauce not simply cheese. The sauce was made with flour, milk and cheese, optional beer, and mustard by personal preference. Now I'd love to claim that my definition is the only right one, but I can't -- but based on the number of alternate definitions on this Talk page, let's just agree that the entry needs to make it absolutely clear that nobody has a canonical recipe. I can't think of any source that could be considered canonical in this matter; for example even if Leith's Cookery Bible, or Mrs Beeton were to say it was just cheese on toast, anyone brought up on a different recipe would consider these sources wrong Ukslim 07:27, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The difference between cheese on toast and welsh rabbit it the fact that Welsh Rabbit requires the cheese to be grated and mixed with further ingredients before being toasted on the bread. Cheese on Toast simply requires that the cheese be sliced or grated and placed on the bread before toasting. Cheese on Toast is always grilled with the cheese on, I know of noone who would prepare a slice of toast and then place a piece of cold cheese on it and call it cheese on toast as this article suggests. I have reworded the article somewhat to make this distinction clear, lest some poor unfortunate follow the original suggestion and end up with Cold Cheese served with Toast.

We used to make cheese on toast by first toasting the bread, then putting on slices of cheddar - and then putting it under a broiler to melt the cheese. The previously toasted bread doesn't really burn because the cheese protects it. Mmmm, yummy. Huw Powell 23:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

... And since when was butter ever involved? I once (and only once) tried buttering the toast before putting the cheese on it and it tasted vile. The cheese negates the need for any butter, and sure enough I have never known anyone to use butter in the making of cheese on toast until it was suggested here... and I've seen (and eaten) a lot of cheese on toast made by different people. I guess some folks are just too butter-happy. ~ SotiCoto (23/01/2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.33.121.133 (talk) 13:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

I say "cheese on toast" is different enough to get it's own entry. I'd even say a better redirect for cheese on toast would be to "grilled cheese" rather than welsh rarebit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.54.71 (talk) 22:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I've been slightly shocked by this entry since for me the crucial distinction of Welsh rarebit/rabbit has always been that a raw egg is mixed with the grated cheese (and, possibly, beer, worcestershire sauce etc.). This egg means that as the cheese melts, the egg hardens, holding the whole lot together. Even if it's not authentic, try it! Cooke 12:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Welsh rarebit

My grandmother was from the foothills of the Appalachias. She made a dish, which I guess is an American version of this, which my mom called Welsh rarebit. It was an open-faced toasted/broiled cheese sandwich, topped with tomato soup.

interesting. sounds just like a popular dish of northern portugal, they call a "francisinia" (sp???)

nightmares

the was a recent study on nightmares cause by cheese, that would be a good source.

"Cheese dream" is a pretty common term throughout Britain as far as I'm aware.

It's unlikely to be "gastrointestinal irritation" so I removed that sentence. Cheese is well known (citation reqd) for inducing dreams. Think neurotransmitters, not bowel movement! 89.243.35.26 11:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

There is an old tradition about rarebit causing nightmares; this has been the stuff of many a TV comedy in the 1950's and '60's. One would not expect to see anything int he article trying to prove or disprove that rarebit actually causes nightmares, but, given that this is rarebit's salient feature in popular culture (at least in the US), a cited section on "Rarebit in Popular Culture" would be helpful and useful. Xenophon777 (talk) 13:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

POV notice

I have added a POV notice, which appears to have been written with an agenda of supporting the article title by asserting that the opinions of the OED are fact and all other opinions are patently inferior. Pinoakcourt 01:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've edited the section. I think it's now un-POV enough. All we need now is a source for rarebit being more common that rabbit (it clearly is, but we do need a source for it). garik 11:46, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

similar dishes

The Hot Brown, a regional dish from Kentucky, adds a slice of turkey breast between the toast and sauce.

I'm wondering the relation of the French "tartine" which, though it literally means toast, is used to refer to toasted bread with cheese and often other nice ingredients.

What is the whole cheese-on-toast family?

Discussion of name (old and new)

Forget OnLine Search Results

"I say, why would you call it 'welsh rabbit' if indeed there are no rabbit parts. I was thrilled at the concept of butchering my own rabbit and serving it on toast, yet to my dismay - it is cheese and weird sauces. MAJOR LETDOWN. On another note, have you ever heard of a grilled cheese sandwich. Just saying..."

Just because something is online does not mean its true ... unfortunately, just because something is in a book doesn't guarantee its true either, but books more likely have professional & accountable editors, whereas anyone can post anything online.

"...The proper name of the dish is rabbit, as in the hopping critter with big ears. Both the dish and its name date back to the eighteenth century, and its name reflects the eternal (so far) national rivalry between England and Wales. Some wag, almost certainly English, christened the popular but humble dish of melted cheese over toast Welsh rabbit... The implication, of course, was that the Welsh could not obtain or afford real rabbit and had to make do with this cheesy substitute.

"The distinguishing feature of Welsh rabbit is that it is a joke, which brings us to where that rarebit business came from. Someone, somewhere, simply didn't get the joke. Some humorless ancient grammarian decided that, since there was clearly no rabbit involved, rabbit must be a degenerated form of something, and determined that the missing "proper" name must be rarebit. Why anyone would think that the stalwart Welsh would tolerate such a prissy name as rarebit for anything is another question, but unfortunately the new sanitized name stuck, at least in the minds of menu writers. Such high-handed pedantry is frustrating indeed for anyone who values the wonderful ability of English phrases such as Welsh rabbit to immortalize a joke hundreds of years old. As the eminent English grammarian H.W. Fowler put it in 1926, "Welsh rabbit is amusing and right, and Welsh rarebit stupid and wrong."

From Evan Morris's book "The Word Detective" (ISBN 0-452-28264-0) page 209.

IMO, this page would best be reformatted to reflect the dish as it is correctly supposed to be -- rabbit -- with a small section toward the end indicating that there is a misconception that it is "rarebit". ManOnPipes

Personally I find the word rarebit more humerous, and, given the nature of the English language, if an eminent English grammarian from 1926 states that something is "stupid and wrong", then it can only be right. These were the people who were wont to endlessly rail against split infinitives, after all. 00:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

NOOOO - Fowler is far more interesting than that - and most certainly did not "endlessly rail against split infinitives", his entry on them is in fact primarily concerned with the perils of pedantic avoidance of split infinitives. 79.77.136.225 (talk) 10:59, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

name

Moved from article: Now isn't that a debatable issue. I lived in England during the war in the home of a Welsh woman from Cardiff and she served me WELSH RAREBIT for breakfast. - Kaesemankin, Jan 18, 2004 - David Gerard 15:00, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've never heard it called Welsh rabbit - only ever Welsh rarebit. Arkady Rose 18:06, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

just have a look in any good dictionary... unfortunately the erroneous "rarebit" is propagated by cookbooks, but like all euphemisms (and unlike the dish itself!) it deserves to be stamped on. seglea 18:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

If it is the normal term it should be used. And it is the normal term. Language should be controlled by real people, not be pedantic lexicographers. Cookery writers and cooks decide what to call food, and if lexicographers are too stubborn to follow them they are just being silly pedants. Pinoakcourt 01:41, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen it spelt Rabbit, it's most common spelling is rarebit and language is defined by common usage. I don't understand why dictionaries are so reluctant to correct their articles when they badger on about common usage to include questionable entries. Abigsmurf 14:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Until I saw this article, It had *only* ever been "rabbit" to me. Dbelange 22:46, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that rarebit was an updating/evolution. This nice quote by Edger Allen Poe refers to Welsh Rabbit

"A light supper, of course. I am exceedingly fond of Welsh rabbit. More than a pound at once, however, may not at all times be advisable. Still, there can be no material objection to two. And really between two and three, there is merely a single unit of difference. I ventured, perhaps, upon four. My wife will have it five; but, clearly, she has confounded two very distinct affairs. The abstract number, five, I am willing to admit; but, concretely, it has reference to bottles of brown stout, without which, in the way of condiment, Welsh rabbit is to be eschewed." -- E. A. Poe, Some Words with a Mummy

Name change

I've moved this page to Welsh rarebit. That is what the food is called. As someone who has lived in Wales all my life, I consider myself an authority on this. The dubious archaic form, 'Welsh rabbit', is just that - an archaic form. Is London a redirect to Londinium? No, it is not. The most common name is used. Alternate names should redirect to this page. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions. Proto t c 12:24, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm Welsh enough that I speak the language, but in English I call it Welsh rabbit - I don't see how our backgrounds make either of us an authority, though. Garik 16:05, May 12 2006 (BST)

And I have changed it right back again; all my life it's been called "Welsh rabbit". But it's not my experience, or any other individual editor's, that counts, it is the recorded usage. OED is authoritative for UK English, and (in the constantly updated online edition) it is about as unambiguous as it could be:

Welsh rabbit: A dish consisting of cheese and a little butter melted and mixed together, to which are added ale, cayenne pepper, and salt, the whole being stirred until it is creamy, and then poured over buttered toast: also, simply, slices of toasted cheese laid on toast.

Welsh rarebit: [An etymologizing alteration of prec. There is no evidence of the independent use of rarebit.]

It may be that there is a Welsh/elsewhere difference here, which would be really interesting if so, because it would perhaps imply that an original disparaging sense was still understood in Wales 250 years on whe it has long been forgotten elsewhere (the English stereotype of the Welsh having changed completely over that period, from stupidity and thievery to rugby and choirs). But I know of no evidence of that.

seglea 20:44, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I have always known this food to be called "Welsh rarebit", spelt that way. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:00, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Further Name comment

I have edited the article to remove the phrasing that 'welsh rarebit' is erroneous. Whether this is the correct name as recorded or not, it is bias to suggest that this common usage is in any way 'wrong'. The article did not suggest that the name 'cheese on toast' is wrong...!

As for the two items of food being different... yes, this is perhaps true, but I suspect so few people are concerend with this (or know about it even...) we can safely keep the two practices and names together. fatbarry2000 10:07, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

• Im a Brit and seen the use of the name Welsh rarebit much much more than welsh rabbit.I think the article overstates the prevalence of the rabbit name by a fair degree. is there any reference that can support the argument for the prevalence of the rarebit name? Bwithh 04:29, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
  • elsewhere the original form is sometimes preserved (and everywhere the pronunciation is "rabbit"). I want to state that this is not universally correct as it pretends; I am an American living in the west. I was raised on what we called "rarebits". We didn't use the word "Welsh", and I had no idea they were called "Welsh rabbits" at all until I ran across the term somewhere else (and had to look it up!) It was simply a family recipe (in our family we actually add hot and soy sauce to the mix—I'm not sure how my grandparents made it), and as none of my friends had had it, I didn't think it might have been a common dish elsewhere. The Jade Knight 04:26, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

I would like to add that "(and everywhere the pronunciation is "rabbit")." is not true. It is just false, a lie if you will. I thought maybe it was just me, but a quick straw poll revealed that everyone I know pronounces 'rarebit' as 'Rare-bit'. Hence I am removing this bit.

Also, Rarebit seems to be the more common name. The 'correcting' back to the older form has had favour recently, but that doesn't make it more 'correct', nor more prevalent.11:14, 15 December 2005 (UTC) (Skittle)

This was a euphemism based on folk etymology (that is, this was a new word made up by people who didn't understand why the dish was called "rabbit").

Either it was a euphemism, or it was an 'overcorrection' following folk entymology. It can't be a euphemism if people didn't understand the meaning of the original; there would be nothing for them to euphemise.

I'm Welsh, and I call it Welsh rabbit, but 'Welsh rarebit' is no more 'wrong' than the spelling 'hiccough' for hiccup. Also based on false etymology, but still acceptable. Garik 18:43, 10 May 2006 (BST)

Article should be moved to Welsh rarebit

Welsh rabbit may have been the original term, but Welsh rarebit is far more common; Google returns 63,500 for "Welsh rabbit" versus 181,000 for "Welsh rarebit". 203.122.193.200 07:02, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

This has already been discussed above (and you may want to add to that existing discussion).

Atlant 16:35, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Move to Welsh rarebit

Whether some people like it or not that is the overwhelming usage. If it is the normal term it should be used. And it is the normal term. Language should be controlled by real people, not be pedantic lexicographers. Pinoakcourt 01:43, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Is it the 'normal term'? I've always known it as Welsh rabbit, a edirect from Welsh rarebit, together with an explanation of the different terms should be sufficient.DuncanHill 08:35, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I was born in the UK, and have lived in New Zealand and various parts of the US. It has been "rarebit" all the way. Also note that Google has far more hits for "welsh rarebit" than "welsh rabbit". A direct from Welsh rabbit would be better, I'd think. Subtilior 21:37, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I also found the title here wrong. I live in England and my mother's family are Welsh, we have always said 'welsh rarebit' and I've always thought that those who say 'welsh rabbit' had heard wrong or never seen the term written down. Here's a recipe from the BBC Wales site: [1] Steve-g 13:58, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The OED is hardly an authoritative reference when it comes to cooking. I never even heard it called "rabbit" before I found this article. I vote "rarebit", and that seems to be the majority opinion, with only seglea and Garik dissenting 24.205.91.162 10:50, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I've moved 24.205.91.162's comment down here — I hope you don't mind —, because this is where the issue's being discussed now. I would point out that I agree completely that "rarebit" is the majority form (though ideally we need a source for that, should one exist), whatever I call it myself. I think the page should be moved. What I do disagree with is people using their Welsh background as evidence. I'm Welsh and call it "Welsh rabbit". So what though? It's not a Welsh name — its only connection with Wales and the Welsh is the attitude of the English towards us. Anyway, I'm pretty certain that rarebit is the majority form. I never said it wasn't. Let's move it. garik 11:55, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

For my two cents worth, I just followed two links to here and both were spelled "rarebit" in the origin files. So there. I chuckled when I saw I was redirected to Welsh Rabbit, which strikes me as something that would be good in a pie with gravy. Huw Powell 23:42, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

"Rarebit" was the word my great aunt used to use, but I still find it odd that simply because most people use this incorrect form (the OED *is* authorititive on the English language, and the lengths they go to to trace the etymology of every word are exhaustive) that this error should be perpetuated in an *encyclopedia* article that should be stating what's correct, not what's a commonly held belief. I'm not going to change it as I'm sure someone would just change it back, but I wanted to show my disapproval anyhow. Miremare 20:37, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to language "correct" is relative, and changes over time. Whatever the food used to be called it isn't called that anymore. Another good example is the word rabbit itself: Until the 19th century adult rabbits were called "coneys", and the word "rabbit" referred only to baby rabbits; but that doesn't mean the wikipedia article for the animal is called coney and lists "rabbit" as an error. I'd also like to know where you're getting that the OED lists the food under "rabbit" before "rarebit"; I don't have access to the full version but the free online compact version has "rarebit" first then "rabbit" as a variant [2]. And, technically speaking, the OED is not de facto "authorititive" for English usage; unlike French with it's Académie française, there is no official source that defines "correct" English. --Krsont 00:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's just it; it is called Welsh rabbit by, judging by the Google results quoted above, about 1/3 of people, wheras nobody calls rabbits coneys any more. The OED entry is:

Welsh rabbit: A dish consisting of cheese and a little butter melted and mixed together, to which are added ale, cayenne pepper, and salt, the whole being stirred until it is creamy, and then poured over buttered toast: also, simply, slices of toasted cheese laid on toast.

Welsh rarebit: [An etymologizing alteration of prec. There is no evidence of the independent use of rarebit.]

The OED is authoritative on UK English whether it's "official" or not - I don't really see what difference a government sanction makes on these things. Miremare 13:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I grew up in Yorkshire, England in the 1970s and 80s and it was always "rarebit". I have the impression that some people have now found out it was originally simply "rabbit" and meant as a joke, and so purists are now saying we should go back to that form; however as Pinoakcourt says above, in language it is normally usage that counts - what do most people say now, not what was the original term 200 years ago. Orlando098 (talk) 07:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

possible cites for rarebit being the common spelling

Checking on google "welsh rabbit" returns 41,000 results and that would also include article about the animals in Wales. "Welsh Rarebit" returns 131,000 results indicating it's by far the most popular spelling. Is this in itselfa valid cite for the common spelling and is it worth putting in the article? Abigsmurf 14:07, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I can find millions of google hits for things that don't exist at all. You've merely proven that both terms exist, and one is more copied than the other. With Wikipedia using it, a lot of those sites will simply be mirrors. Clearly, both names are in use, though I never heard "rarebit" in Lancs, Merseyside or the IOW. However, the historical record indicates "rabbit" is the original. This is clearly referenced in the article, but should probably be given lead notice in the intro, just for clarification. And for all you Brits: It's called an "elevator," not a "lift." That's what the inventor said, so you're all wrong. (/sarcasm).Mzmadmike (talk) 06:56, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

=Le Welsh

"... although the French often use the term "Le Welsh", interestingly sometimes associated with Irish cuisine.[citation needed]" I am french, and i confirm this allegation. the rumor said, that it was an irish meal of mining workers.--82.237.35.192 15:51, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Popular Misconception or Matter of Fact?

I find this article a prime example of Wikipedia's tendency to convey popular misconception in place of dependable and accurate information.

As someone has already pointed out, the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) describes the dish as follows.

"Welsh rabbit: A dish consisting of cheese and a little butter melted and mixed together, to which are added ale, cayenne pepper, and salt, the whole being stirred until it is creamy, and then poured over buttered toast: also, simply, slices of toasted cheese laid on toast."

The OED's subsequent entry is:

"Welsh rarebit: [An etymologizing alteration of prec. There is no evidence of the independent use of rarebit.]"

Professional and acclaimed cookery writers concur with the OED.

This may be very surprising to very many people, but your surprise does not invalidate the painstaking research of Oxford editors and lexicographers and the knowledge of professional cooks.

The question is, do you want Wikipedia to educate those who seek knowledge, or do you wish it to be a vehicle for propagating your personal misconceptions?

If you'd prefer the former then consider the following:

1: Rabbit is the original and traditional form.

2: It is not Welsh in anything except name.

3: After the sauce has been applied to the toast, it does not need to be grilled.

4: The term applies both to the sauce and to simple cheese slices.

5: It is not necessarily a snack; most especially when competent cooks go to the trouble of making it as a sauce. Notably, Louis Saulnier (a supreme authority of classic cuisine) lists it as a savoury (i.e. one of many courses in a meal). At the other extreme, the concept lends itself to slapping some pre-sliced cheese onto some pre-sliced bread and melting the cheese by shoving it under a grill for a minute, which makes it a quick snack, but the result bears very little comparison to the real thing.

Please let's not propagate ignorance: it's not what encyclopedias are for. (Or would the majority prefer to revise that concept too?)

Letsgetthingsright 12:07, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Words and phrases in English often change form, or even meaning, over time, from the original etymological one. Generally in my experience language experts would agree that usage - what do most native speakers say now - is ultimately a better guide than what the original form of something was. For example, nice originally meant ignorant and the word apron is a misspelling of a naperon. And where is your authority for your claim about how simple cheese on toast is also Welsh rarebit? In my experience Welsh rarebit is always the sauce version. Furthermore a "savoury" simply means something that is not a sweet/ dessert, and it seems to me certainly true to say this dish is usually, if not necessarily a "snack", then certainly a simple, quick meal, not something you would expect to see served as a course in a smart restaurant, whether or not "competent chefs" have recipes for it. Cookbooks need simple, quick recipes as well as more formal ones. Orlando098 (talk) 08:04, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Clue to Etymology

The following is from "The Devil's Dictionary" of 1911 by the American writer Ambrose Bierce.

RAREBIT n. A Welsh rabbit, in the speech of the humorless, who point out that it is not a rabbit. To whom it may be solemnly explained that the comestible known as toad-in-a-hole is really not a toad, and that riz-de-veau à la financière is not the smile of a calf prepared after the recipe of a she banker.

Letsgetthingsright 10:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Counting Google Hits as a Research Tool

There are very many reasons why the results of such 'research' are of little or no consequence, one of which is that many of the entries you'll find are are copies of others, including this one.

Another is that searching for Welsh+Rabbit and Welsh+Rarebit will include very many irrelevant results. If you give the exercise just a little more thought and compare "Rabbit+Cheese+Toast" with "Rarebit+Cheese+Toast" then you'll find that the apparent difference of opinion is far narrower than you thought.

Letsgetthingsright 10:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

... and another is that none of the results are from known sources. The only reason to call it "research" is because it's incredibly easy and it supports your argument. Power of deduction 12:47, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record, if Google hits are anything to go by then more men would prefer to fuck George W Bush than Angelina Jolie. Power of deduction 13:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Obviously Not Welsh

Welsh rabbit is no more Welsh than a French letter is French or a Chinese burn is Chinese.

The fact that the term includes the word "Welsh" logically excludes Wales as its origin. Power of deduction 12:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Like the English Channel has nothing to with England, or Cornish pasties with Cornwall? I am not arguing with the fact, but the logic is poor. Neil ☎ 23:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

There is more than one channel and there is more than one type of pasty and so it is logical that those items are distinguished by geographical connections, but there is only one cheese dish called a rabbit. (For that matter, there is only one thing in the world called a rarebit.)

Given that the dish as originally described strongly resembles a Swiss cheese fondue, and given that the word Welsh was used by the English to deride anything foreign, it is not logical to assume that the English named the dish Welsh rabbit in honour of a Welsh origin. People are merely assuming it to be Welsh, and citing the fact that the Welsh were eating caws pobi (which means only cooked cheese) 200 years earlier proves nothing.

In isolation, my previous, concise assertion does not bear logical analysis, as you point out, but my argument does. Power of deduction 00:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Welsh rabbit is correct

Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable is a painstakingly researched souce of information about language usage. It has goine into numerous editions since first being published in the 19th century. Brewer's defines Welsh Rabbit this way: "Welsh rabbit: cheese melted with butter, milk, Worcestershire sauce, etc. spread on buttered toast. Rabbit is not a corruption of rarebit; the term is on a par with 'mock-turtle','Bombay duck', etc." In other words, anyone who insists on calling it Rarebit has simply failed to get the joke. The dish was almost never called Rarebit until Victorian times, when in the general atmosphere of heightened prissiness, some cooks aspired to turn this earthy treat-of-the-people into something more, well, rare. Younggoldchip (talk) 00:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC) The name 'Welsh rabbit is not archaic, it's simply what this dish is properly called. To argue that the Oxford English Dictionary is written by "pedants" shows the weakness of the pro-rarebit party. As others have said, no one should take any pride in insisting that a mistake which becomes very common is no longer a mistake. Xn4 13:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming convention and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) - use the most common name. Wikipedia:Naming conflict - the most common use of a name takes precedence. The dish is termed "Welsh rarebit" a lot more these days then it is called "Welsh rabbit", as the above talk discussions said, and as a quick google hunt confirms )on the order of 4 to 1, also [3], as the naming conflicts page suggests). If we are going to go with the "Original Name", which by your argument, Xn4, is the right title, the correct location for this articl is Caws Pobi, which was first recorded in 1547([4]). Neil ☎ 15:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

A "quick Google hunt" confirms nothing. Also, the only reference I can find to a recipe for caws pobi predating Welsh rabbit is in this very article, put there by you. Have you read the 1547 recipe? Power of deduction 02:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

On caws pobi, please see reductio ad absurdum. Xn4 15:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

See straw man. Logic suggests we go by the most popular name, or the original. "Welsh Rabbit" is neither. Neil ☎ 15:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Some of us agree with the grammarian H. W. Fowler, who said in A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (Oxford University Press, 1926) "Welsh Rabbit is amusing and right. Welsh Rarebit is stupid and wrong." I have added that comment to the article. Xn4 15:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, Merriam-Webster says "Welsh Rarebit is now the more common name", and "Neither term is likely to occur very often outside of cookbooks and menus, except in discussions about which name is the correct one". How very perspicacious of them. Neil ☎ 15:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster may have a point but the trouble here and in other cases is that Wikipedia policy is a major culprit in elevating misconception to accepted currency. Notwithstanding that, the current edition of the Concise Oxford would have us say simply "rarebit" (without the word Welsh), stating that its origin was "Welsh rabbit". In that light, we should move the article to "Rarebit". Power of deduction 00:47, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Older Cookbooks

"The Boston Cooking-School Cook Book, 1896" by Fannie M. Farmer ISBN 0-451-12892-3 has two recipes for "Welsh Rarebit" ( one with béchamel, the other with beer.) What do other older cook books list? jmcw 10:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

The OED implies (and only implies) that beer but not flour was used as early as 1725. One may assume that the use of a sauce béchamel was a later refinement by French chefs but interestingly, Escoffier also uses beer but not flour. Perhaps the flour is a remnant of the fondue origin. Power of deduction 01:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The description in the Oxford English Dictionary (1928) appears to be a précis of Escoffier's recipes in Le Guide Culinaire (last edited by Escoffier 1921).

This is the earliest recipe I've found. It predates the use of "Welsh Rabbit".

Savoury Tosted or Melted Cheese

From "The Closet of Sir Kenelm Digby Knight Opened" by Kenelm Digby, 1603 to 1665, published posthumously in 1669

Cut pieces of quick, fat, rich, well tasted cheese, (as the best of Brye, Cheshire, &c. or sharp thick Cream-Cheese) into a dish of thick beaten melted Butter, that hath served for Sparages or the like, or pease, or other boiled Sallet, or ragout of meat, or gravy of Mutton: and, if you will, Chop some of the Asparages among it, or slices of Gambon of Bacon, or fresh-collops, or Onions, or Sibboulets, or Anchovis, and set all this to melt upon a Chafing-dish of Coals, and stir all well together, to Incorporate them; and when all is of an equal consistence, strew some gross White-Pepper on it, and eat it with tosts or crusts of White-bread. You may scorch it at the top with a hot Fire-Shovel.

Oldknowall (talk) 23:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Caws pobi is not Welsh rabbit

The fact that the Welsh were eating cooked cheese long before the term Welsh rabbit was coined is not in the slightest surprising and does not indicate that Welsh rabbit was in any way based on any Welsh dish. As Fowler and others have pointed out, the term was coined as a joke. Power of deduction 16:11, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Subjective opinion

Should this article include every subjective opinion on Welsh rabbit or just that of Poe? 81.157.201.146 (talk) 18:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the content of this article should be strictly limited to the stuff people want to add. Incredible But True (talk) 21:59, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't really include the quote from Poe at all - that quote comes from a humor / satirical piece that he wrote, and is not a serious opinion that he had. Further, the choice to describe him as a "famous alcoholic" is more than a little POV, especially considering that the extent of his alcohol use is highly contentious and debatable. Anyway, it adds nothing to the article and could probably be removed with little impact. If not, it should have his name spelled correctly, his description more NPOV, and the quote clearly shown to be not literal but a joke from a fiction story. --Midnightdreary (talk) 04:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

before 1637 according to the US food processing conglomerate

Could someone check this reference added by an anonymous editor? I have some doubts about its authenticiy. Thanks! jmcw (talk) 09:43, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I am the anonymous editor to whom you refer. The fact that Welsh rabbit was already being eaten by 1637 is clear on the authority of the Betty Crocker Cookbook, which states that Ben Jonson [died 1637] ate the dish at the Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese public house (evidently before it was built following the Great Fire of London and before it was called "Ye Olde" anything).

Betty Crocker does not exist as a person and has never existed, and is a publicity property of the US food processing conglomerate General Mills. Personally, I doubt totally the authenticity and the authoritative value generally of anything promulgated under the name of Betty Crocker and, with the encouragement of another, seriously interested party (Jacksinterweb), I've tried deleting the information provided under the name of Betty Crocker. However, someone else, also anonymous, insists on reinstating it. The point of my edit is, while attempting to avoid fuelling an edit war, to make it very clear to any thinking reader that the information is doubtful, is promulgated only as a sales promotion aid, and needs particular consideration - as you, for example, have noticed.

86.139.21.95 (talk) 18:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice to make your acquaintance! I also have the POV that large conglomerates ( and particularly their sale departments ) are not be trusted. I think if we could find some citations showing their devilry, we could protect many innocent wiki readers from their nefarious chicanery.

In the mean time, does somebody own the terrible book in question and could they verify the current quotations in the article? jmcw (talk) 13:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I would clean up the flurry of tags surrounding Betty and attempt to wikify the text ( whilst protecting the innocent wiki readers from sales departments ), if there are no objections. jmcw (talk) 13:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it totally inappropriate to use a US food processing conglomerate's marketing entity as a reference source for traditional culinary practice, much less Welsh mediaeval and English social history, and I think the paragraph should be removed, permanently, as suggested by and attempted by others. Oldknowall (talk) 17:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Judging by an article in the New York Times of August 11th 1907, it seems likely that General Mills writers confused the personage of Ben Jonson with a tavern of the same name which was in the vicinity of Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9807E1DF103EE033A25752C1A96E9C946697D6CF&oref=slogin

Oldknowall (talk) 05:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The NYT article mentions two pubs: the Ben Jonson and Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese in which Dr Samuel Johnson was allegedly a regular. I think the General Mills staff confused Jonson with Johnson and ignored the fact that one was a pub and the other a person. Jancyclops (talk) 11:28, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Tournedos Rossini

I just noticed that Tournedos Rossini has no cheese. How can it be Welsh rabbit if it has no cheese? A peanut butter and jelly sandwich can have toasted bread but no cheese: it is certainly not Welsh rabbit. jmcw (talk) 13:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

How can anything be Welsh rabbit if it has no bread? This article would be greatly improved if the entire paragraph were deleted. Sole Mornay and Tournedos Rossini are quite separate dishes, and cheese sauce on fruit pie is a bizarre combination and not Welsh rabbit. Oldknowall (talk) 05:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Cheese on Toast. Again. And cheese sandwich?

Bearing in mind that the Cheese on Toast page redirects to this page, that there are more results on google for "Cheese on Toast" [5] than for "welsh rabbit" [6] or for "welsh rarebit" [7] , that there is a National Cheese on Toast Day [8] and that no one I have ever met has ever used the term "Welsh rarebit" when they meant "Cheese on Toast" (I realise that this is a personal matter, but I feel I am not the only one), then perhaps there should at least be a mention of cheese on toast on this page. I'm not asking for a page move, just a slightly broader outlook than the current one. I'm going to try to add in some more detail. --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 12:16, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Bearing in mind that Welsh rabbit is defined by eminent authorities of haute cuisine as a savoury dish quite apart from cheese on toast, I suggest that you start a separate article entitled "Cheese on toast" and provide there a comparison with and a link to Welsh rabbit. Doing so could and should clear up a lot of the misunderstandings and, perhaps, result in two worthwhile articles instead of the misinformed, confused, puerile mish-mosh to which this one repeatedly reverts. Oldknowall (talk) 17:13, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Problem is, Cheese on toast was (in spite of your protests at the time and mistakenly in my opinion) deleted and redirected here. Surely if I resurrect a previously deleted article I'll either get blocked or the article will just be deleted again? --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 15:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Add on - thinking about it though, cheese on toast is notable as a snack, it is popular, well-known and it seems stupid not to have an article about it on the wikipedia. If I can find enough reference that distinguishes it as a snack from welsh <enter prefix>bit then I'll go for it. Care to help? --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 15:32, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I didn't protest at the time. "Cheese on toast" had already been deleted. My point was to emphasise how different it is to Welsh rabbit.

The best help I can offer is to point out that culinary authorities describe Welsh rabbit as a savoury dish comprising certain ingredients prepared in a certain way, the supreme authority being Escoffier. Other culinary authorities and the Oxford English Dictionary all concur, which isn't at all surprising considering Escoffier's status.

On the other hand, cheese on toast is just what it says, cheese on toast. The important thing about cheese on toast in this context is that it is not defined as a classic of haute cuisine and so, people can do anything they want with the idea and it's still called cheese on toast. That's not the case with Welsh rabbit.

Those people who voted to have the "cheese on toast" article removed and redirect all references to it here, either didn't know that Welsh rabbit is a textbook classic, or didn't understand the implications of what they were doing, or didn't care.

I think the matter should be re-examined, otherwise the confusion will continue, Wikipedia will promote popular misconception, and people will learn nothing here.

I'll gladly support such a move.

Oldknowall (talk) 12:26, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it matters if cheese on toast is redirected here. One of the things of interest is the confusion between the classic dish and the popular snack. With a couple of sound references as mentioned above, what you wrote would make a sound explanation, something that would be useful to someone looking for information on the subject. Is there any rule about including the actual recipe?

ProfDEH (talk) 09:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

RECIPES

I don't know about the rules, but will a recipe help? Surely, people will add alternative recipes.

For those who want to know, here's what Escoffier wrote. It's from the English translation of his 1921 edition of Le Guide Culinaire.

[quote]

4960 Welsh Rarebit

This can be made in either of the following ways but but should always be on square or oblong pieces of buttered toast 1 cm (2/5 in) thick.

A) The easiest method consists of covering the toast with a thick layer of grated Gloucestershire or Cheshire cheese, sprinkling with Cayenne and placing in the oven to melt the cheese and glaze the surface.

B) The original method consists of melting the the diced or sliced cheese with a few tablespoons of pale ale and a little English mustard.

When the cheese has melted, pour the mixture on to the buttered toasts and and smooth quickly with the blade of a knife. Sprinkle with Cayenne and cut into small pieces if desired.

[unquote]

Here is the entry from Saulnier's Le Répertoire de la Cusine, 1982, translated by E Brunet.

[quote]

Welsh Rarebit (Toast). — Melt cheddar cheese with cream and beer, glaze salamander.

[unquote]

In both cases, the dish is listed under "Savouries".

I'll add that Escoffier's choice of cheese would have been influence by the quality of the products at the time, eighty-seven years ago or more. Beeton's Book of Household Management in 1861 also holds Cheshire cheese in high esteem, but then it talks of keeping cheese for years and using dishes such as "Welsh rare-bits" to use up the hard pieces close to the rind.

Letsgetthingsright (talk) 12:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Allthegoodnamesaregone2 posted the addition of cheese sandwich. Good photo too. This needs to be moved somewhere more appropriate, it really doesn't belong here. The sandwich article is pretty thin and the contribution could fit in nicely there?

ProfDEH (talk) 09:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

On second thoughts, I edited the Sandwich page and didn't use that in the end.

ProfDEH (talk) 14:34, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, Welsh Rarebit/Rabbit/whatever is a type of cheese on toast, a subset of the parent set of cheesy toasty snacks. To have the article on the parent snack named after the child snack seems rather odd, to me, especially when you consider the following statistics:

- Google Search "Cheese on Toast" [9] - 137,000 results

- "Welsh Rarebit" [10] - 84,400 results

- "welsh rabbit" [11] - 31,800 results

There are more results (over 20,000) for cheese on toast than the other two put together. I think that, if it is still agreed that there is not sufficiently diversity between the two snacks, the page should be moved to "Cheese on toast" with a special section for Welsh Rarebit, and NOT the other way round. Everyone knows the former name, but only a few know the latter two.

And for anyone who is reading this and wondering what all the fuss is about - yes, I do have better things to do (procrastination is the order of the day). --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 09:02, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been afraid to get in on this debate, but what the heck. First, I just did a search in the 19th Century U.S. Newspapers database (subscription) and I got 21 articles with Welsh Rarebit, and 6 articles with Welsh Rabbit, including an amusing little rant from 1894 on which was the correct name (which means this debate has now been going on at least 114 years). The dish in general seems to have been particularly in vogue in the last decades of the 19th century. I also have seen many variations of the recipe, including most of what has been discussed here. Particularly notable is that it seemed fairly common to add eggs into the mix. As for the cheese on toast contraversy, I wonder if that stems from differences between common dishes in the UK as opposed to the US. While I grew up eating Welsh Rarebit and Welsh Rabbit in the US, I've never known "cheese on toast" to be a common snack food. Grilled cheese, yes. Cheese on toast, no. So I see Welsh Rarebit as being entirely separate.OwenSaunders (talk) 05:53, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, cheese on toast is commonplace in the UK.

If only all the interesting stuff on this talk page would find its way into the article!

ProfDEH (talk) 20:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I would work on the article, but I grew up eating the version of this dish propagated by the sales department of the US food processing conglomerate. In fact, I dreamed of having a grandma just like Betty Crocker. This assuredly would be discovered by the anti-US food processing conglomerate faction and, well, I shudder to think... OwenSaunders (talk) 04:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Wha? I never thought (and I'm sure most other people didn't either) that this was a US-UK divide. I have a few daft friends over here in Britain who refer to cheese on toast as Welsh Rarebit. I really, strongly think that cheese on toast deserves a separate article, as it is NOT the same thing as Welsh rarebit. At the extreme, WR is a very popular, specialised type of an even more popular basic cheese on toast snack, and WR should be a sub-heading in an article entitled "cheese on toast". BTW, I'm really pleased that you mentioned grilled cheese - I didn't realise that that's essentially the American version of cheese on toast (but often as a sandwich). Cheers. --El Pollo Diablo (Talk) 09:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that, as you stated previously, "the page should be moved to "Cheese on toast" with a special section for Welsh Rarebit, and NOT the other way round. Everyone knows the former name, but only a few know the latter two." I didn't know the former name, if you are referring to "cheese of toast," until I read this article and hence my comment on the difference in perception in the US and UK. I'd keep them as two separate articles. And if winning the title of the article is based on google results, then I just got 1,690,000 results (I kid you not) for "grilled cheese." Ugh, now I'm hungry, but for which one? OwenSaunders (talk) 16:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC) I just realized that UK "cheese on toast + fried tomatoes" = US "grilled cheese + tomato soup." OwenSaunders (talk) 16:56, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I find this discussion interesting. I speak as a European of mixed cultural background with some professional and international insight of cuisine and professional interest in the English language.

In my view, if Welsh rabbit is a subset of anything, it is a subset of the Continental European fondue, in which bread is dipped into a cheese sauce. The earliest reference I have found to an English version of the Continental European fondue is by Sir Kenelm Digby (died 1665), who described in detail a dish that is remarkably like Welsh rabbit (as distinct from either cheese on toast or grilled cheese).

There are then two seminal moments in the history of the dish.

1: By 1725, some joker had decided to call it "Welsh rabbit", for reasons not stated.

2: By 1921, Auguste Escoffier had listed his versions of the dish, so making it an impeccably documented culinary classic.

The fact that it reminds people of other ways of using similar ingredients is incidental to the above. Welsh rabbit deserves an article of its own, with helpful cross-references to the alternative methods.

People tend to confuse Welsh rabbit with other ways of preparing bread and cheese only because they don't know the difference. Consulting an encyclopaedia ought to put them wise, but Wikipedia has failed so far on this subject because its free-for-all editing serves well to fuel popular misconception.

Add to the confusion those who assume that the word "Welsh" must indicate an origin in Wales, those who would uphold the labels of commercial sauce bottles as authoritative references, and those who assume that TV cooks and cookery columnists necessarily research any further than Wikipedia.

As for using Google hits as a guide to anything, please stop. If you continue on that route then Wikipedia will eventually have only one article, and it will be called "Porn".

The Other Hand (talk) 20:55, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

This really seems like a consensus to go back to having a separate Cheese on Toast article, or at least very good reasons for a separate article - the two are simply not the same thing. So here goes... ProfDEH (talk) 19:40, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Revamping Articles

If anyone else has access to a university library's online databases, there is a fully searchable one called "British Newspapers 1600-1900." I typed up something on it last night, but had a computer problem and lost it. In any event, try searches on "Welch Rarebit," and "Welch Rabbit," for the earliest hits from the 18th century. Rarebit and Rabbit have both been been in common usage for 250 years at least, so I don't think there is any point in picking one over the other. There's lots more interesting info available in the newspapers as well. OwenSaunders (talk) 20:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

After some editing and un-editing of the first paragraph by a couple of people (including myself) I've attempted a simple, clear version. While I'm happy with the first sentence, I'm not sure if the second is getting across my intent, which is to essentially to point out that this dish, regardless of similarities to things like fondue, is a relatively specific dish known by this name mostly in the UK and US. Though it would be good for the other former colonies to weigh in as well. And is this really known as Welsh rarebit in some Latin American countries?

Also, I'm having formatting problems with the hyperlink "frozen prepared version" at the bottom of the second paragraph if anyone knows how to fix that.OwenSaunders (talk) 17:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

That was good, I think it makes things a lot clearer. Fixed the references, split a couple of sentences to smooth the flow. ProfDEH (talk) 20:07, 21 April 2008 (UTC) Thanks.OwenSaunders (talk) 21:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I've typed up some interesting articles from the newspaper databases I have access to. I was going to post them either here or on my user page, but now I'm a bit unsure of copyright law on databases--is it infringement? All articles pre-date 1900 and I've retyped the articles from the original PDF files of the scans of the actual original pages. It doesn't seem to me that I'm violating any copyright, but wanted others' opinion before I add them to Wikipedia.OwenSaunders (talk) 21:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Post them, if copyright they will get deleted. That will give a chance for a reference if not a direct quote. ProfDEH (talk) 08:19, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't imagine that anything predating 1900 will be protected by copyright today. The Other Hand (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

With much research, I think I'm starting to figure a few things out. The original Welch Rabbit appears to be toasted cheese with toasted bread. But at some point in the 19th century the name was applied to a different dish that more closely resembles either stewed cheese, English rabbit, and/or fondue. I need to figure out when the name transition occurs. I have access to the 18th century versions of Hannah Glasse’s The Art of Cookery, Made Plain and Easy, but does anyone know what the popular cookbooks in Great Britain were the first half of the 19th century?OwenSaunders (talk) 02:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Have you looked at http://www.mrsbeeton.com? ProfDEH (talk) 08:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Something to keep in mind is that today's precise terms for cooking methods (baking, roasting, toasting and so on) depend on modern kitchen appliances, literacy, and the widespread distribution of literature. The Other Hand (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yep, I've considered that as well as social custom, all of which I think has to do with the change from a piece of cheese roasted on an open fire in a tavern to a sauce served to company at the Victorian table. After I get some of my research onto Wikipedia where everyone can review it, then we can get into that debate.  ;) OwenSaunders (talk) 18:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I feel that with these thoughtful developments, the article is becoming seriously worthwhile. I've been watching the article for a long time and I've noticed that no sooner someone makes it an accurate and informative explanation of an exceptionally successful and time-honoured dish, others confound the issue by adding their popular misconceptions. The problem, I believe, is that people suppose that anything with cheese on toast is Welsh rabbit. By making it abundantly clear that Welsh rabbit is a classic while cheese on toast is anything you may want to do with some cheese and some toast, perhaps this article can in future retain its integrity.

In that light, I have modified the second paragraph. The references to ketchup and the like belong to "Cheese on toast" (if anywhere) and not here. Of my relevant culinary reference sources to hand (Escoffier, Saulnier, Hering and Constance Spry), only Hering suggests Worcestershire sauce. I have left Worcestershire sauce in the article not because I think Hering particularly authoritative but because it's been marketed as an ingredient of Welsh rabbit so long and so successfully that many people simply won't believe that it's not, and so its exclusion would provoke uninformed editing. (Also, Kenelm Digby's 17th century recipe suggested anchovies and so, the inclusion of Worcestershire sauce is perhaps not solely a matter of sales promotion.)

I hope you find my edit helpful.

The Other Hand (talk) 11:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that paragraph needed some cleaning up. I knew about Mrs. Beeton's but didn't know it was online. She refers to it as Rare-bits, I expect that might have been a major factor in the name change. But her recipe is still the origal version, i.e. toasted cheese on toast. So I'm thinking that the reapplication of the name to the saucy version occurs somewhere in the next decade or two, either through a cookbook, magazine recipe, or famous restaurant. I'm trying to get a copy of the recipe from the 1888 revision of Mrs. Beeton's to see where that takes me.

As for Digby's recipe, I think that falls among the assorted cousins of stewed cheese, toasted cheese, fondue, and Welsh rarebit. Notice that the term rabbit is not applied to it (but that's a long story). And. I suspect the addition of Worcestershire sauce may have been part of an early marketing plan of Lea & Perrin's. I would guess that somewhere in the late 19th century a recipe in a magazine or on the bottle's label first began promoting the addition of Worcestershire sauce to the mix. If anyone comes across something like this, please post it or contact me through my talk page.

In any event, I am working on a new section on the origin and evolution of WR, but since I am tracking down all the orginal references I use--meaning I am looking at the original historic cookbooks, newspapers, etc--it will take a bit of time. And it is a bit complicated, a rare-bit complicated I guess. In that vein, I have yet to come across anything that suggests Welsch rabbit was a derogatory term, and the article as it stands has no references for this. So unless someone can provided references, I will remove that since it is purely speculation without proper sourcing.OwenSaunders (talk) 17:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It's the word Welsh (Welch) that was once used derogatorily. You'll find plenty of old examples in the OED. The Other Hand (talk) 17:22, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that I have seen. But it's the combination with rabbit or rarebit I'm looking for. Since I can find recipes for Scotch Rabbit and English Rabbit from the mid-18th century, it doesn't makes sense (yet) that only for Welch Rabbit was the application of the country/nationality before rabbit meant as a derogative term. It can't be assumed because the term Welsh was used derogatively in some cases that it was so used in all cases. In fact, I've seen other references about "prized" Welsh beef, etc. OwenSaunders (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Try following up on Escoffier's and Mrs Beeton's use of Cheshire cheese. Cheshire is very close to Wales and the Welsh produce (or produced) cheese in a similar style. The Other Hand (talk) 18:09, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I was beginning to wonder if Wales was particularly well-known for the quality of its cheese in general, or perhaps it produced a lot of cheese, and hence in the late 19th century Wales would have been a more apparent association with a popular cheese dish than England or Scotland? OwenSaunders (talk) 18:15, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't confirm your line of thought but I am sure that you'll easily establish that Cheddar (Somerset) cheese was not the accepted and all-pervasive standard that it is today. Also, the "hard" cheeses used to be much harder than today (even fifty years ago, you could hurt your mouth eating it), and people would buy a whole cheese and keep it for years, making it even harder. Roasting/toasting/stewing it may have been the best way to make hard cheese palatable. The Other Hand (talk) 18:30, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Very helpful, thank you. And yes, I think the cheddar was a 20th century innovation OwenSaunders (talk) 18:42, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Last, as I am American, I'm a little unfamiliar with some older English terms (though I know to substitute "s" for "f" when necessary). Can anyone translate the following from a recipe for stewed cheese:

"have ready thin toafted fippets, or fried ones, cut three cornerways, flick them all round and in the middle" OwenSaunders (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Sippet is an archaic term for "a small piece of bread or toast, used to dip into soup or sauce" (Concise Oxford English Dictionary). Your translation is therefore, "have standing by some previously prepared, thin, toasted pieces of bread (or fried), cut into triangles, and sprinkle them in. The Other Hand (talk) 17:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I didn't get the flick them about=sprinkle. So this certainly seems a cousin to fondue, with the bits of bread for dunking. OwenSaunders (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

For anyone who is interested, I've begun a revised article which is currently located on my user page. Please do not change the text but rather leave comments on my talk page or this talk page.OwenSaunders (talk) 20:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

No rabbit

Another dish that is named after rabbit although it doesn't contain any, is the German "[Falscher Hase]" (fake rabbit), which is essentially a meatloaf. I just thought I'd mention it. Maikel (talk) 10:22, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Disgusting Photographic Illustration

The current photographic illustration is gut-churningly revolting. Welsh rabbit is not orange-brown. Can someone please come up with a better example? 86.140.87.61 (talk) 00:15, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the photo does the job and it's really not necessary to be so critical of someone's efforts to at least include a photo.OwenSaunders (talk) 03:52, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

The artificial lighting makes for a very misleading colour balance. I made a rarebit mainly so I could take a photograph for this article, but included rather a lot of Guinness - so the end result was very brown (not as orange as the current picture) so no good for an illustration. Delicious though.ProfDEH

Questionable claim

I've removed the following, since it is unsourced and, I think, probably incorrect. I'm unaware of any evidence that "Welsh", by the eighteenth century, was used in English to refer to things originating from Continental Europe, or to foreign things generally (except perhaps incomprehensible speech). I may well be wrong! Please provide a suitable source and reinstate the claim if so. However, I suspect from the tone of this line that it's OR in any case.

Then again, because the word Welsh was at the time used by the English to describe anything inferior or foreign, it may allude to 
the dish's Continental European origin. 

garik (talk) 10:17, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Just the sauce?

Quoth: Welsh rarebit, Welsh rabbit, or more infrequently, rarebit is a savoury sauce made from melted cheese and various other ingredients and served hot over toasted bread.

So this means that when I order a Welsh rabbit, I'll likely be asked if I want it served on toast?

Round my way Welsh rabbit is a seasoned melted cheese toast. If in the USA it refers to just the seasoned melted cheese (sans the toast) then this should be stated separately. Maikel (talk) 14:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

No, I believe the sentence is meant to convey that the entire construction, "savoury sauce...over toasted bread" -is- the Welsh rabbit. Spark240 (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

In Mrs Beeton's Book of Household Management Welsh rarebit is melted Cheshire or Gloucester cheese on toast with mustard and pepper on top or else melted cheese sent to the table accompanied by dry or buttered toast, mustard and pepper. Scotch rarebit, however, is just the sauce (melted rich cheese with the mustard and pepper mixed in) accompanied by dry or buttered toast. Jancyclops (talk) 11:56, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Reference? What reference?

I don't understand how Chris Roberts, Heavy Words Lightly Thrown: The Reason Behind Rhyme can be the ultimate reference for the defintion of Welsh rabbit. Maikel (talk) 14:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

You raise a good point. Whitebox (talk) 23:21, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

My own two-penneth worth

I was brought up eating 'rarebit' not 'rabbit', and was told the latter name was used by ignorant English. I don't dismiss or disagree with the etymology as set out in the article, but it might do no harm to admit that 'rabbit' has largely been corrupted to 'rarebit' in common usage.

Second point on recipes. Go looking in books and you'll add all sorts of esoteric things, including beer. But if you want an authentic, straightforward recipe try:

• Grate cheddar cheese
• Mix with similar quantity of milk.
• Add pepper and/or mustard to taste.
• Optionally add diced onion.
• Toast bread on one side, spread the mix on the untoasted side
• grill until a brown-spotted skin forms over the mix, which remains near-liquid beneath.

The taste and texture of this is very distinct from cheese on toast. It is also more filling in my view.

Final point, whatever it is in the picture, it bears no resemblance to Welsh rarebit as I have cooked it or had it served to me. The Yowser (talk) 10:39, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Could you take a picture and upload it the next time you cook? Thanks! jmcw (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

I'd agree the current picture looks like a fancy version of English style, cheese on toast. The cheese on the rarebit page is perfectly to the edges of the bread, which seems to be extremely tidy for a sauce that is pourable, or an overly thin coating for a cheese sauce of spreading consistency. Whitebox (talk) 10:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Boorde not the first.

I believe that the article errs in stating that Boorde's is "the earliest known reference to cheese being eaten cooked in the British Isles". The Forme of Cury dates from C14 and includes, among other cheese-containing recipes, a recipe for a cooked cheese tart: "Take a Crust ynche depe in a trape. take ȝolkes of Ayren rawe & chese ruayn. & medle it & þe ȝolkes togyder. and do þerto powdour gyngur. sugur. safroun. and salt. do it in a trape, bake it and serue it forth." See http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Tart_de_Bry_%28recipe%29 --Kay Dekker (talk) 22:20, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Category:Welsh cuisine

I recently removed the category tag Category:Welsh Cuisine from this article with the edit summary "we have no evidence that this is actually Welsh cuisine, despite its name". User:Trident13 reverted and accused me of vandalism. I have asked Trident13 to restore my edit, but have not heard from him. Could other editors join the discussion? Thanks, --Macrakis (talk) 18:08, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I haven't heard back from anyone, so I'm re-deleting the cat. --Macrakis (talk) 14:41, 9 February 2011 (UTC)