Talk:Stella Krenzbach

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July 2018[edit]

I have copied the text from Ukrainian Insurgent Army and have made small edits.Xx236 (talk) 06:26, 12 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Academy vs. propaganda[edit]

The page is biased, it equally accepts academic texts and nationalistic propaganda. Is there any source supporting the existence of the woman? Not her biography, her existnce only. Three last names, not bad.

The UPA murdered non-Ukrainian supporters, eg. Jewish doctors, toward the end of the war. Xx236 (talk) 06:29, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Too long[edit]

This article is bit too long I think certain parts of the section Stella Krenzbach#Accusations of propaganda should be made footnotes in my opinion. Many different academics saying the same thing ("Stella Krenzbach" did not exist) do not add anything to this article other than making it look POV-pushy (too me). — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Page issues, Feb 2023 — rewrite?[edit]

1. As noted above by @Xx236 the page gives far too much weight to unreliable and partisan sources, treating her as a legitimate historical figure, rather than going off the more notable aspect of the subject, which is the investigation of the story's credibility. The whole topic is an almost perfect perfect example of WP:ECREE.

The Polish, Russian and Ukrainian versions of this entry are way ahead of us in this regard, pardon my Google translate but here goes:

Ukrainian: "probably mythical person mentioned in several sources of Ukrainian post-war emigration as a participant of the Ukrainian resistance movement of Jewish origin and a UPA nurse. Researchers, including Philip Friedman, Per Anders Rudling, Ivan-Pavlo Khimka, Bohdan Kordyuk, claim that this person did not exist."
Polish: "a fictitious activist of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), referred to in numerous Ukrainian sources in order to substantiate the propaganda thesis about the mass participation of Jews in the UPA and the positive attitude of the OUN and UPA towards Jews during World War II."

Polish version unfortunately suffers from an obvious POV across the article, though, lots of references to the story being a propaganda ploy, even though the intentions behind the story are unclear. In the hypothetical future version of this article we should refer to this being the view of scholars, rather than reality.

And the Russian: "is a mythical character first mentioned in the 1950s in the press of Ukrainian emigration in Canada. According to information dating back to these publications, she is a Jewish woman from Bolekhiv (now Ivano-Frankivsk region ), a nurse, a member of the UPA during the Second World War, after the war she allegedly worked in the Israeli Foreign Ministry."

For an English example, Ukrainian Insurgent Army#Holocaust also one-ups this article in the same way. The first commit of this page says that it was cloned from there, but I can't find out what the editor means by that.

2. Stella Krenzbach#Accusations of propaganda is pretty poorly structured as @Yulia Romero notes, and most of the quotes in this section should almost definitely be relegated to footnotes. However I would hesitate to describe citing the prominent academics as POV-pushing, since that's what historical articles should be all about, summarising the views of the field.

3. Stella Krenzbach#Accounts of a life, Stella Krenzbach#Resonance and Stella Krenzbach#Accusations of propaganda read more like attempts to be poetic or poor translation than serious, helpful bibliographic entry headings.

4. Citation 4 which attributes the editing of the collection to Mirchuk is completely useless and doesn't mention the collection. Additionally, the account is misleading as first gets the date wrong and then presents the story as one whole, rather than the reality which was in two parts: first, the "memoir" (1954) and then the story about Krenzbach migrating to Israel was published later by another author (1957). I'll note that neither source gets anywhere close to providing actual evidence for the story.

I propose we start a rewrite mirroring the Russian version's structure, which centres academic conclusions and splits the article into Bio and Authenticity sections — though I'd like to somehow include info on the noteworthy contemporary appearances of the story (Fishbein et al.). There's not any need to take a neutral stance on whether Krenzbach is a fiction or not with recent academia, in fact the lead should note the views of Friedman and Kordiuk, where the story really ought to have ended. Krystoff Moholy (talk) 03:26, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds legit, godspeed Krystoff Moholy -- Jabbi (talk) 17:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]