Talk:Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia/Archive 4

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Request to change the offensive name of the article

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No move. There's no agreement that the proposed title is preferable to the current one. The split discussion should continue separately from the RM. Cúchullain t/c 16:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia → Slavs in Greece –

In the way I see it Slavic speakers is only a translation of the Greek Σλαβόφωνοι, a nationalist Greek word that denies the existence of minority people in Greece. The word means that the indigenous Slav population of Northern Greece does not exist and that it is Greek "but with a Slavic language" as it's described by many Greek nationalist politicians. Maybe under the eyes of Greeks the title of the article is just fine, but under the perspective of the Bulgarians and also Macedonians it's a provocation. It's a fact that Slavs have always settled here, we can see that from many ethnographic projects made over the history till today, we can see that from the separate cultures, languages etc.

Wikipedia has not got a goal to be provocative, and that's why it should be not. I'm sure that other "Wikipedians" share my opinion for this article to be changed into a different name (like the one I have recommended Slavs in Greece) that would not have offensive words like "Slavophones", "Slavic speakers" etc. in the title.

--- Dr. Mr. Sea Fall Ph.D 10:16, 05 January 2013 (CET) 11:16, 05 January 2013 (UTC)

  • Oppose the title has, IIRC, been debated to death, and the present article covers a very specific set of people, not all Slavs who ever lived in Greece (Melingoi and Ezeritai, anyone?). In addition, the nominator's account positively screams of sockpuppetry... Constantine ✍ 09:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 Comment: Can you please define those specific kind of people, please? Because I don't understand you, your giving me a denial of my earlier assertion without arguments, you don't have arguments. What is this, some Slavic tribes that don't exist and God knows if they ever existed or not. We're talking about the Slavs as a whole, no matter where they are, and since there are a very little living in Southern Greece they made an article about Slavs in Macedonia (where they are mostly concentrated, thats why there is not other article about Slavs in Greece). In order for this article not to have nationalist, irredentist elements from both sides I asked for a move. Dr. Mr. Sea Fall Ph.D 09:51, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Your proposal would make sense if a) Slavic presence in Greece were confined to Macedonia and hence "Slavs of Greece" would be coterminous with "Slavs in Macedonia" (it isn't) and more importantly b) if the Slavic-speakers of today felt themselves demonstrably to be Slavs and Slavs alone (i.e. Serbs, Bulgarians, "Macedonians" or whatever else). As it is, this was not the case in the 19th and early 20th century, when nationalism was running rampant (just check any of many dozen studies on the fluidity of "national" self-perception at the time, or simply the case of Konstantinos Christou), and is not the case now. Similarly, a Turkish-speaker doesn't have to have Turkish origin or even identify as a Turk. Equating "Slavic-speaker" with "Slav" might seem straightforward, but these are the Balkans, and nothing like this ever is around here, and 99 out of a 100 times anyone who proposes getting rid of nuances in ethnonyms has an agenda of his own. BTW you would help your case if you did not utter complete nonsense like "some Slavic tribes that don't exist and God knows if they ever existed or not" for the well-attested Slavs of S. Greece, as well as the incredible "It's a fact that Slavs have always settled here". Constantine ✍ 12:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Well if we can't say that Slavs were always on the Balkan, I guess we must say that Greeks were always present here no matter what - Hahahahaha. Firstly, I would like to point out that Macedonians Bulgarians and Serbs are Slavs together, and since the Greek Government does not recognize and does not reveal the true numbers of those separate Slavic ethnic group we can only call them Slavs as a whole. Secondly, I would point at the recognizion of Slavs by the Greek Government in 1925 with the printing of the Abecedar. Yours trulyDr. Mr. Sea Fall Ph.D 17:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
And how does any of this refute what I wrote above? We are not discussing the morality of the Greek government's policies towards minorities here, but the best, most accurate and neutral way to refer to a very specific group of people. The point is that you equate "Slavic speakers" with "Slavs" in terms of an ethnic identity, and that in itself is unacceptable because it obliterates all the finer nuances and distinctions of self-identification among them. Constantine ✍ 21:33, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment I'm not sure I follow the proposer's logic here, and wonder if he really isn't reading something into the article title that isn't there. If it's good enough for Swedish-speaking population of Finland and German-speaking Community of Belgium (a self-chosen title), wouldn't Slavic-speaking population of Greece be equally acceptable in this case? Nobody ever suggests that the Swedish/Finnish title is the result of nationalist or xenophobic bias, and I fail to see how Slavic speakers can be classed as offensive (quite the contrary, Slavs would probably be more offensive as it suggests ethnicity rather than a linguistic minority, which some members of that linguistic minority may not wish to be labelled with). Skinsmoke (talk) 09:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 Comment: The fact is, my friend, that all of these communities you have carefully selected for us are officially recognized by their governments by those names under agreement. The Slavs of Greece are NOT recognized by the Greek Government (as if they don't exist) and the name that is chosen for this article is leaning on the provocative given name to the Slavs by the Greek nationalists. When theres no official name we just have to call them Slavs of Greece.Dr. Mr. Sea Fall Ph.D 10:12, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Slavs of Greek Macedonia? Greek Slavs? — kwami (talk) 09:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

 Comment: Just like there are Albanian Australians, Bulgarian Americans etc. They are Slavs but citizens of Greece. What's so hard to understand? Dr. Mr. Sea Fall Ph.D 10:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose This article is not about the Slavs in Greece in general, but about the Slav-speaking (non-immigrant) inhabitants of (Greek) Macedonia (whether they self-define as Slavs or Greeks or "locals" or whatever). --79.160.40.10 (talk) 16:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Agreed that the proposed name is the wrong topic, but the current title suggests that topic. I doubt one reader in a thousand is going to understand that "Slavic" doesn't mean "Slavic". — kwami (talk) 21:53, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Keep or -- Slavic people of Greek Macedonia This is a highly politically contentious subject, because the Greek government seems to deny the possibility that theri country contains this ethnic minority. It also seeks to dney the eixistience of the independent Republic of Macedonia, insisting that its name is Skopje. This seems to be an unresolved dispute, arising form the Balkan wars about a century ago. The nom seeks to imply that this is about Slavs in Greece generally (which would include migrant workers), but that would blur the subject. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:39, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Possible Changes

I have only recently created a Wikipedia account and have looked up this page. I have several "issues" with it but I do not know how to change some of the stuff/don't know if my edits would be controversial.

There is one image featured in the article that shows a group dancing. My grandparents are from the Kastoria/Florina region and I am familiar with allot of the dances of Greek Macedonia, I however do not know this dance. As well as that the picture depicts a vergina sun on a red background. This alludes to the "Flag of Sovereign "Macedonia" (FYROM)" I find this quite offensive and incorrect to be portrayed as a banner at a Greek festival. Seeing as the flag for the region of Greek Macedonia is the vergina sun on a blue background. Also in the information box on the right, under the flag of FYROM it says "Macedonia" I don't believe that to be okay as the article is on Greek Macedonia and is quite offensive to refer to FYROM as solely Macedonia.

Please someone help me to edit this page legitimately. DarkLordAjuntaPall (talk) 03:45, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Macedonia is not called "FYROM" in Wikipedia, it is called by its own name, "Macedonia". Please read WP:MOSMAC before you get yourself into trouble with your politics. --Taivo (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2013 (UTC)


Okay politics being put aside, there is one change I would like to make about the language itself. I have been brought up listening to Greek Macedonian and arguably it could be my first language. To distinguish it from other Slavic languages I would like to add a section that explains its roots in Doric (Ancient Greek) I have an example however I am not sure how to source it.

e.g. In Greek Macedonian the word wolf is pronounced "lysitsa" whereas in other Slavic languages it is "volk" and the Ancient Greek term is lycan or lycern. (Hence the name of the mountain in Athens lykavittos mountain or "the mountain of wolves"). DarkLordAjuntaPall (talk) 23:31, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

DarkLord, you have found a borrowed word in Greek Macedonian. There are hundreds of borrowed words in every language on the planet. That does not give Greek Macedonian "roots in Doric". It is a dialect of Macedonian, a Slavic language. If you want to provide a selection of borrowed words, then you need to find a reliable source on Greek Macedonian that discusses borrowed words. --Taivo (talk) 00:31, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Funniest thing

is, that all of them (slavic speakers in greek Macedonia) are originaly Serbs, All that lands were part of former serbina lands empire, kingdoms and dukes before Maritsa 1371 and Kosovo 1389 and Ottoman turkish ocupation. Noumerous monasteries are made or renovated by rullers from Nemanjić dynasty like monasteries near Kastoria or Florina...Over centuries and main influence of Constantinople patriarchy church, helenization was in progress. As witness of that are noumerous villages with slavic (serbian) names which are renamed in after ww1 period in greek way as common translation or renamed with names of greek historical persons from mithology to Macedonian struglle till 1912. "Bulgary" in Egeian Macedonia are just historical sadness and heavy life of people there under Turks. Instead of turkish government and greek popes, they try to find a peace of freedom, over good wishes from Bulgaria over churches (egyarchy schizm) and schools with favorite slavic language and lithurgy after centirues, but then bulgarization started even whole world knows how many conection name bulgar, bolgar, volgar or vulgar have with anything which is slavic. Another mess made newdays state of Macedonia with "macedonians by nation" splited by horrible neighbours Serbs, Bulgars and Greeks, propaganda with hugh comunist help over 50 years...That is terrible history of this losted people called by every different names exept the right one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.147.51 (talk) 02:42, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Split proposal

I think that this article would almost necessary require splitting, because it has a large proportion of material, in terms of content, piled up in it. It would seem very much reasonable that it would be given a change to be split in the form of other “sister articles”, as the ones mentioned, in order for the content to evolve, because it surely has its notability. In that way, the neutrality of the article would come to a right balance, taking in fact that the different articles would cultivate different areas of official opinion(s). Nemojda (talk) 13:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Your proposal to have one article on Macedonians and one article on Bulgarians is ridiculous. There is only one Slavic language spoken in Greece, not two, and the ethnic identifiers within the borders of Greece for people who speak one language, are far from NPOV. --Taivo (talk) 16:05, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
You must understand that I'm proposing a split to create separate "sister articles" to this one, one about Greek citizen that identify as Macedonians, and the other about Greek citizens that identify as Bulgarian, to work on themes like their settlements, organizations, culture, etc. I didn't specify anything about the usage of language. Nemojda (talk) 18:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
I oppose. This proposal is not constructive. Jingiby (talk) 18:11, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Mmm. Can you specify a reason? Nemojda (talk) 18:13, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
Because it starts from an incorrect presumption that those people can be conveniently classified into "Macedonian", "Bulgarian" and "Slavophone Greek" drawers, then counted, then a separate article about each group can be written. In reality, such classification does not exist, because it is personal and cultural, and borders are blurred, even on an individual level. Taken one by one, many people who are subject of the article will have Greek ethnic affiliation, many Macedonian, yet others Bulgarian, and some would be just Slavic... and many of those would be all of that at the same time. I fail to see necessity for split along these lines. A case could be made for splitting the history per WP:SS, but I don't think it is currently too long to present an obstacle for navigation. No such user (talk) 11:47, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

I think it’s pretty much as constructive as it gets. It would devote and split contradicting positions in this article to different related articles to this one thus this article wouldn’t have a problem being neutral. Nemojda (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Plus, it would give a chance for the opposing contexts to evolve and upgrade in their separate articles. Nemojda (talk) 18:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

This article is close to NPOV. The eventual split will give a good chance for biased POV. Jingiby (talk) 18:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Apparently I'm not suggesting a complete split, but the titles already mentioned. These articles would have the role of reinforcing the material of this article. Thus this article's NPOV would remain intact, but on the contrary it would have a larger support on the context. In my opinion. Nemojda (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

If there are Greeks that don't speak a Slavic language, then they don't belong in this article anyway--whether their ancestors are ethnically Slavic or not. Notice the title of the article: Slavic speakers. It's not about anyone who speaks Greek as their first language. It's only about the people who speak the one Slavic language spoken in Greek Macedonia. --Taivo (talk) 22:07, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
That's exactly the reason I proposed of creating separate articles about Greek people with ethnic Slavic (Macedonian/Bulgarian) descent. You proved my point. Nemojda (talk) 09:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Setting up a new article for Greek speakers of Slavic ethnicity is different than splitting this article. This article is about people in Greece who still speak Slavic and their history in the country. So you still don't understand the point--this article isn't about people named Stepanovich who speak Greek. It's about people who speak Macedonian who live in Greece. --Taivo (talk) 17:47, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Then, why isn't it called Macedonian-speakers of Greek Macedonia rather than Slavic speakers? Nemojda (talk) 18:46, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Because in Greece, Macedonian is called "Slavic", not "Macedonian". It is the result of a consensus a couple of years ago. --Taivo (talk) 20:34, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
It is quite confusing, though. The world isn't Greece. Silesian is a "Slavic dialect", but that's not what we're talking about. In the box, "Slavic dialects" should be changed to "Macedonian" (or "Slavic Macedonian" or whatever), with an appropriate link, and in the very first line "Slavic" should be defined, so people aren't under the impression that it means "Slavic". — kwami (talk) 02:20, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
That's the whole problem, though, Kwami, and it's been discussed here before. Macedonian speakers are called "Slavic" in Greece. The lead probably does, however, need to make that clear. --Taivo (talk) 16:48, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Bulgarian diaspora

@Tonimicho: You seem to have misunderstood the scope of this article. If you read it carefully (and also take a look at the talk page), you will see that it is an article about a Slavic-speaking indigenous linguistic/ethnic population group. They are or have been called Bulgarian, Macedonian, Slavomacedonian, Slavic or, most commonly, just "local". For lack of a better name (or rather: for lack of consensus about a better name), they are in Wikipedia called "Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia". That is "of", not "in", since it covers a group that is indigenous of Greek Macedonia. It does not cover other Slavic speakers in Greece, like the Pomaks, and it does not cover the 43 981 Bulgarians (not "declared Bulgarians", but registered citizens of Bulgaria)) who live and work all over Greece, not only in Macedonia. Bulgarian diaspora is therefore not relevant to this article. Regards! --T*U (talk) 10:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Who are really that slavic macedonians by documents (Historical facts with references)

1) Around 950,Byzantine Emperor Constantin Porphyrogenitos stated that city of “Ta Serbia” situated north-western from Thesaloniki,has it’s name from its Serbian founders (around early 7th century A.D.) and in 10th century that same city is mentioned as “Srpchishte” in the manuscript by the Byzantine author John Zonara.

Constantin Porphyrogenitos “De Administrando Imperio” cap.32, pp.152 ed.Bonn, “Starine” 14,1882 pp.16

2) In the year 680 in Bythinia, city of Gordoservon is mentioned whose name is derived from the Serbs resettled in Asia Minor by Byzantine Emperor Constance II from the areas around river Vardar (FYROM) . Isidor,the Episcop of Gordoservon is mentioned in 680/681 and the fact that this town was Episcopal Center gives ground to the thesis that it had large Serbian population. Around year 1200 this city is mentioned as Servochoria (Serbian Habitation) . Constantin Porfyrogenitus “De Administrando Imperio” Erdeljanovich.J. “O naseljavanju Slovena u Maloj Aziji i Siriji od VII do X veka” Glasnik geografskog drushtva vol. VI 1921 pp.189 Lequen,M. “Oriens Christianus” I, 1740, pp.659-660 Micotky,J.”Otiorum Chroate”, Vol. I ,Budapest, 1806, pp.89-112 Niederle,L. “Slovanske starozhitnosti” Dilu II,Svazek pp.389-399; pp. 444-446 Ostrogorski,G.”Bizantisko-Juzhnoslovenski odnosi”,Enciklopedija Jugoslavije 1,Zagreb 1955,pp. 591-599 Ramsay,W.M. “The Historical Geography Of Asia Minor”, London, 1890, pp.183, pp.210

3) Around 1229/1230 Bulgarian Emperor John Asen II wrote an inscription in Trnovo:”I have took the land from Adrianopolis to Drach,Greek,Albanian and also Serbian”.Since Serbian states were situated far north from the line outlined in this commemorative text,it is not unlikely that “Serbian” means an ethnically Serbian enclave,situated much more southerly than political borders of Serbia. Daskalov,H.S. “Otkritija v drevnei stolicji Bolgarskoi,Ternovo”Moskva, 1859 pp.18-19 Dujchev,I. “Car Ivan Asen II” Sofija, 1941 pp.23-24 Makushev,V “Bolgarija v’ koncjah XII i v pervoi polovini XIII veka” ,1872 pp.56-57

4) In the Law of Serbian Emperor Stephan Dushan (Dushanov Zakonik) issued 1349-1354 in Skoplje and Seress following peoples are mentioned in Serbia:Serbs,Greeks,Albanians (Arbanasi) (art.77,82) , Aromanians (Vlasi) (art.32,77,82) , Saxons (Sasi) (art.123) .

Novakovich,S. “Zakonik Stefana Dushana Cara Srpskog 1349-1354″ Beograd 1898

5) Despot Ugljesha in the 1366 letter written and confirmed in Skoplje stated that he is the master of Serbian land,Greece and Pomorje.

Novakovich,S. “Zakonski spomenici Srpskih drzhava srednjeg veka”, 1912, pp.509

6) Patriarch of Constantinople mentioned master of Serbia,Ugljesha in a letter from 1371. Ugljesha’s state was around Lower Struma.

Mikloshich,F & Muller,J. “Acta et diplomata” I, 1860, pp.571

7) The place of 1371 battle at Marica,when Kings Vukashin and Ugljesha, leading armies from their provinces in Old Serbia ,clashed with the Turks, was named “Sirf-Sindughi”-”Serbian defeat”.

Jorga,N. “Geschiste des Osmanischen Reiches” Vol.I, cap IV,pp241

8) In the second half of 14th century, monk Isaiah said that Ugljesha has risen Serbian and Greek army (Srbskija i Grchskiija voiska) and his brother Vukashin,and with that army they confronted the invading Turks. Novakovich,S. “Srbi i Turci XIV i XV veka , 1893,pp.184, Mikloshich ,F. “S.Joannis Chrystostomi homilia in ramos palmarum”, 1845, pp.71 Mikloshich,F. “Chrestomatia Paleoslovenica”, 1861, pp 41

9) In 1395 Mihael Paleologos and his wife Helena established estate to Helena’s father,Master of Serbia,Konstantin Dejanovich.Konstantin’s state was around river Struma.

Mikloshich,F. & Joseph,M. “Acta et dipolomata”,1862, pp.260

10) A 1401 remark from government of Venice says about the envoy of “Konstatntin,master of Serbia,which is around our Drach area” (Constantini domini Servie teritorii,quod est circa teritorium nostrum Durachii) .

Ljubich,S. “Listine” 4,1874, pp.437

11) Sometimes in the beginning of 15th century Bulgarian chronicles are written,where remark that Turkish Sultan Murat had went to conquer either Bulgars or Ugljesha.Ugljesha and King Vukashin gathered a great Serbian army (Sobra sja mnozhestvo voisk Serbskih) .

Bogdan,J. “Archiv fur Slavische philologie” 13, 1891,pp.481; pp.493

12) Dimitar,writer from Kratovo in 1446 said that he begin to translate “Law” for the Archbishoprics of Ohrid from Greek language into Serbian (v ezhe sastaviti mi pisaniem srbskoga ezika sochinenie, rekshe knigu imenuemu zakonik) under order of Ohrid Archbishop Dorotej,who visited him in Kratovo,because Congregational Church in Ohrid did not had that book in Serbian language (po eziku srbskom) but only in Greek.

Kachanovski,V. “Starine” 12,1880 ,pp.255

13) Remains of John Rilski are transferred from Trnovo in the Monastery of Rila.That was described by Vladislav Gramatik,in 1469,who also mentioned Serbian soldiers (Srbskiie voje) in the 1371 Marica battle.

Novakovich,S, “Glasnik Srpskog uchenog drushtva” 22,1867,pp.287

14) Sometime at the end of 15th century Hungarian historian Bonfini wrote about “Macedonia,which is now called Serbia” (“Macedoniam quam Serbua nunc appelant”) .

Ant.Bonfini “Rerum Hungarii Indec.” II lib IX,Viennae, 1774 pp.248a

15) In the year 1515 Gjuragj Kratovian was burnt.In his biography stands:…From the Serbian root and guided by Holy Spirit you have left fatherland and relatives in Kratovo and moved to the Sardakian City (Ot korene srpskago i douhom svetim vodimi ostavil jesi otachastvo i srodniki izhe v’ Kratovja, prishel jesi k’ Gradou Sardaskomu) .

Novakovich.S. “Glasnik Srpskog uchenog drushtva” 21,1867, pp.154

16) Stephan Gerlach wrote in 1574 that relative of Mehmed Pasha “Became Archbishop in Bulgaria,and his seat is ten days away from Adrianopolis in the city of Ohrid,on the border between Epirus and Serbia” (Zu eineim Erz-bischopff in der Bulgarey gemacht worden,hat seinen Sitz zehn Tagreiss von Adrianopol,in der Stadt Ochrida,in der Grantzen Epiri und Servien) .

Gerlach,S. “Tage-Buch”,Frankfurt,1674, pp.64a

17) Jakov Soranzzo from Venice arrives in Skoplje,in the province of Serbia, in the year 1575.

Matkovich.P.”Rad. Jugosl. Akad.” 124,1895, pp.131

18) In Kraljevo (Romania) ,priest John has written in 1580 that he is a Serb from Kratovo (Srbin od mjasta Kratova) .

Stojanovich,Lj.”Stari Srpski zapisi i natpisi” I,1902 ,pp.752

19) ) Martin Crusius in his book mentions”Vscopia, or Scopia, a great and populous City of Turkey in the K. of Servia”.

Crusius, M. “Turcogreciae libri octo”, 1584, pp.5

20) In the year 1584 Alexander Komulovich mentioned that in Serbia (Servia) ,Skoplje is principal city (Scopia principale citta) and that it is situated in the middle of the province (nel mezzo della provincia) .

Fermendzhin,E. “Acta Bosniae” “Monum. Slav. Mer. XXIII 1892 pp.39

21) In 17th Century,Hadji Kalpha,a Turkish geographer recorded that mountains of the Castoria district are peopled by Serbs and Aromanians.He also mentions that on the bank of the lake between Seres,Thesaloniki and Siderocaps there is a village inhabited by Greeks,Serbs and Aromanians.

“Rumeli und Bosna,Geographisch beschrieben von Mustapha Ben Abdalaih Hadschi Chalfa aus dem turkischen ubersetzt von J. von Hammer” Wien 1812 pp.80; pp.97

22) Mitropolit Jeremiah from the City of “Pelagon” (Bitolj) went to Russia in 1603 saying that he arrived from Serbian land.

Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs, Year 7112,Dec.19

23) In the October of 1605 delegation of monks went in Russia and among them was Diakon Avksentij from the Serbian land, Nicholas Monastery in Strumica (Serbskoi zemli nikolskoga monastira chto na Strumicja,Diakon Avksentii) .

“Snoshenia Rossii po djelam cerkovnim” ,I,1858

24) In 1609,in the archive of Vatican,catholic church in Skoplje Serbia is mentioned (La chiesa di Scopia in Servia) .

Horvat,K. “Glasnik zemaljskog muzeja u Bosni i Hercegovini” XXI,1909

25) Mitropolit Sergius said in Russia that he was appointed as Mitropolit in Greven by Archbishop of Ohrid,Nectarij of Serbian land (Posvjashchen on na mitropoliju grevenskuju arhiepiskop ohridskim ,Nektariem serbskoi zemli) .

“Snoshenia Rossii po djelam cerkovnim” II, 1860 pp.29

26) Comment by Dominican Nicolo Longi from Dubrovnik states that “it is useful to send 3-4 Serbian priest in Serbia, because in Nish, Kragujevac, Jagodina, Crna Gora (Skopska Crna Gora-I.M) and Kratovo Serbian is spoken”

Acta. S. Congr. Vol.3. Fol.24 A D Congr. diie 20 decembris 1622

27) A part of Matija Masarek’s report based on a visit throughout the Serbian dioceze in 1623-1624 ,reflecting the ethnicity of Kratovo.

“Cratovo, dove saranno 40 fouchi di Catolici….habitata da Turchi di qualita, Serviani , et 160 anime piu Catoliche”

Visite e Colllegi, Vo.1 f66r-82r

28) Congregation approves purchase of a house in Skoplje ( ” della Casa in Scopie ” ) in which four or five young Serbs (“4, o 5 giovani Servian”) are to be trained and send into the Illyrian College in Loretto ( ” Collego Illirico di Loreto ” )

Roma, 25 marzo 1628

Lettere, vol. 7, f.36v-37r

29) Archbishop Bianki of Bar divided Serbia into upper and lower.In the area of Upper, he sorted Prokuplje, Novo Brdo, Trepcha, Janjevo, Skopska Crna Gora, Skoplje and Kratovo,places where “all Catholics are of Serbian speech”.In Lower Serbia’s domain Prizren, Guri and Shegec were included by him.

“Arch. S. Congr. Visitte.Vol 16. Fol. 239.

30) Archbishop Bianki mentiones an epidemic of plague in Serbia and the newly appeared disease in Skoplje, Janjevo and Novo Brdo.

“Va p doi mesi cheo mi trovo in Servia visitando queste vile contorno Prisren che e Servia Inferiore, che la Servia Superore questa esta passat e stata gran mortalita della pesta, e che p alcuni mesie stata cessata.Hora di novo si trovano loughli infetati Scopia,Jagnevo, e Montenevo”…

….Prisren, il di 29 ottobre…

…Giorgio Bjanchi, Arciv d’ Antivari et Primate di Servia.

SOCG, Vol 60f. 176r-177v.

31) Archbishop of Ohrid Avram in 1634 arrived in Russia with escort.When asked,they said they were Greeks from the Serbian land of Ohrid (Grechane Serpskie zemli iz Ahridona Goroda) .

Archive of the Russian Ministry Of Foreign Affairs, Year 7142,No 8

32) Addressing the Russian Emperor Mihail in 1641, Mitropolit of Skoplje said that he is from Serbian land (Serbskie zemli Semion mitropolit) .

Dimitrijevich.S. “Spom. Srp. Kralj. Akad.” 38, 1908 pp.60a, pp 60b

33) In 1644 a Serb,Dimitrije Nikolajev (Serbjanin’ Dmitrei Nikolaev) from Kastoria, arrived in Russia.

Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs,Year 7156

34) Petar Bogdani had wrote in 1650 a letter of recommendation for his relative Andria Bogdani from Albania ,saying about him that he is recommended for Archbishopric of Ohrid in Serbia (Proposto per L’Archivescovato d’ Ochrida su in confini della Servia) .

Fermendzhin,E. “Starine” 25,1892, pp.172

35) in 1651 Mitropolit of Kratovo wrote to Russian Emperor “My forefathers and ancestors are lords of the Serbian land of Kratovo”.

Dimitrijevich,S. “Glasnik Srpske kraljevske akademije”, 58,1900.

36) 1652 In the documents of Russian Imperial House,it is recorded that Serbian Mitropolit Mihailo (Serbskii Mitropolit Mihailo) had dinner with the Russian Emperor.He is the same person from reference above.

“Filologicheskaja nabljudenija A.H. Vostokova”.1865, pp.184

37) 1653 Jeromonah Damaskin,wrote a letter to his cousin,mitropolit Mihailo of Kratovo,in which there is a statement about mercy of the Russian Emperor towards our Serbian language (Jeziku nashemu Srbskom) .

Stanojevich,Lj “Stari Srpski zapisi i natpisi”, I,1902.No 1547,No 1562

38) Catholic missionaries in Serbia (Servia) are mentioned and among them mr.Stefan Kratovian (In Cratovo d.Stefano da Cratovo) .

Fermendzhin,E. “Starine” 25,1892, pp.194

39) In an inscription from 1659 stands:”Mihail Mitropit, visitor of Holy God’s Grave in the Holy Jerusalem, from the Serbian land city of Kratovo” (Mihail Mitropolit,poklonik bozhia groba svetago Ierusalima ot Srbskie zemli grada Kratova) .

“Chtenija v imperatorskom’ obshtesvja istorii i drevnosti Rossiiskih pri Moskovskom univerziteta” Moskva 1896 II 5th part pp.4a

40) In 1665 Archbishop Petar of Sophia wrote that:”Now in this Kingdom of Serbia there is one Metropolitan church,that of Skoplje”(Al presente si trovano in cotesto regno di Servia una chiesa Metropolitana,cioe,Scopia) ,than saying that Pope Urban VIII in his declaration on foundation of “del collegio Illyrico” says that there are three Biscopates in Serbia :those of Skoplje,Justinijana called Prizren ,and Nish (Che sono del regno di Servia tre vescovati:cioe Scupi,ovvero Scopia,Justiniana detta Prisren,et anche Nissa) .

Fermendzhin,E. “Starine” 25 ,pp18

41) Peter Heylin,English geographer writes under the word “Servia”: Principal towns hereof : 1.Nissa 2.Vidina (by the Turks called Kiratow) 3.Cratova……..9.Scopi,by Ptolemy called Scupi.

Heylin,P. “Cosmographie in four books” London,1666

42) In 1666 Mitropolit Ananije of Cratovo wrote to Russian Emperor, mentioning “Mihailo,Mitropolit of Serbs” (Mihaila Mitropolita Srbian) .

Dimitrijevich,S. “Spomenica Srpske kraljevske akademije”,38,1900 pp.64b

43) 1667 Emperor Leopold gave some privileges to the Greeks (Graeci) and Serbs (Rasciani) who emigrated toward Northern Hungary and most of them arrived from Macedonia (Praesertim autem ex Macedonia adventum) .

Vitkovich,G “Glasnik Srpskog uchenog drushtva”,67,1887,pp.128;pp.131

44) It is stated in the “Report about Serbian or Skopje’s Diocese” ( Relazione della diocesi di Servia o Skopia ) about “Main places in Serbia : Prizren , Skoplje….” (” Li loughi principali della Servia: Prisren, Scopia ….”)

Fermendzhin E., “Starine” 25, 1892. pp. 195-196

45) 1676 Secretary of the society “De Propaganda Fide” wrote a report to Pope Inocentius about Catholic Church in Bosnia and neighboring countries, in which Biscop of Skoplje,Andrea Bogdani in Serbia (Servia) is mentioned.

Horvat,K. “Glasnik Zemaljskog Muzeja Bosne i Hercegovine” XXI,1909,pp.393

46) Around 1680 Urban Cerri mentioned in his report to Pope Inocentius XI archbiscop of Skoplje in Serbia.

Theiner,A.” Vetera. Monum. Slav. Mer. Histor. Ill.” II, 1875,pp 213

47) Archbishop of Skoplje writes about Serbia and says that Skoplje is capital city in Serbia (Scopia….metropolli di Servia) .Further,He mentions that Orthodox houses in Skoplje are Greek and Serbian (Case Greche e Serviane) .

Theiner,A. ibidem, pp. 220

48) Canonical Visit by Archbishop of Skoplje Peter Bogdani in 1680 indicated that inhabitans of Skoplje are “Greeks, Serbs, Jews, Armenians”. “Scritture orig. rif. nelle. congr. gen. vol. 482 ad congr. die 5 maii 1681 Nro 24″

49) In 1685 Catholic Archbishop of Skoplje Petar Bogdani wrote to Cardinal Cibo saying that Turks had thrown him into exile from entire Serbia (da tutta la Servia) .

Horvat,K. “Glasnik zemaljskog muzeja u Bosni i Hercegovini” XXI, 1909, pp. 403

50) Mitropolit Jevtimije from Serbian land of Skoplje (Serbskija zemli goroda Skopija) arrived in Russia in 1687 where he delivered a request in which he says that he is Mitropolit of Serbian land of Skoplje (Mitropolit Serbskije zemli Skopskie Crkve) .

Dimitrijevich,S. “Glasnik Srpske Kraljevske Akademije” 60, 1901 pp.154

51) In 1690 Catholic Bishop of Cotor, Marin Drago,reports that “Skoplje is inhabited with Turks, Serbs of Greek Rite and Catholics”,

“Scritture riferite nei congressi – Servia.Vol. I, Fol. 120″

52) Austrian Emperor Leopold proclaimed Jovan Monastirlija from Bitolj a Vojvoda (Military chieftain) of the Serbian nation in Austria in 1691.

Trifunoski,F.J. “Makedoniziranje Juzhne Srbije” Beograd 1995 pp.24

53) Bratan Ivanov,a Serb from Macedonian land arrived in Russia (Makedonskie zemli Serbin’ Bratan’ Ivanov) in the year 1704. Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs,Year 1704 Kapterev,N.A. “Harakter otnoshenii Rossii k Pravoslavnomu Vostoku v XVI i XVII stoletija” 1914 pp.348

54) Dimitrije Petrov from Kichevo arrived in Russia to collect funds for building church dedicated to St. Demetrius in Kichevo.He declared himself as coming from the Serbian land of Kichevo (Serbskie zemli goroda Karacheva) .The arrival is recorded as being by the: “(From) Serbian land (from) Ohrid’s Eparchy (of the) Krachevite city Serb Dmitrei Petrov”: “Serbskie zemli Arhidonskija Eparhi Krachevskogo goroda Serbjanin Dmitrei Petrov”.

Archive of the Russian Ministry For Foreign Affairs,Year 1706, No. 7

55) Archbishop of Bar, Vichentije Zmajevich mentiones that “main places in Serbia are: Belgrade, Smederevo, Nish, Skoplje, Prokuplje, Novo Brdo, Prishtina, Trepcha, Prizren and Pech, and forts Kachanik, Tetovo, Janjevo, Vuchitrn, Mitrovica, Djakovica and Novi Pazar” “Scritture riferite nei congressi – Albania. Vol. V, Fol. 175″

56) In 1723 Gerard Cornelius von Driesch,secretary of the Austrian delegation heading for Constantinople, mentioned that in Pirot there are “Greeks and Serbs in those lands” (Grichen oder Raitzen dieses landes) .He also mentioned place named Grobblian located eastern of Sofia saying that the greater part of its inhabitants are Serbs (Raitzen) .

Cornelius,G.V.D. “Historische nachricht von der Rom. Kayser.Gross-Botschaft nacht Konstantinopol” Nurnberg 1723 pp.84; pp.102

57) The Urgent Congregation of Roman Catholic Church in 1742 issued an report which states that “Serbs of Greek Rite” are peopling Croatia,Slavonia,Hungary,Serbia,Thrace,Macedonia,Albania and Montenegro.

Archivum Sacrae Congregationis de Propaganda Fide.”Congregazioni Particolari”Vol.106.Fol.1

58) In the year 1744 Russian Empress Elisabeth addressed the “Noble and honest lords of Serbian lands in Macedonia,Skandaria,Montenegro and Primorje of Montenegrin people,to the governors , dukes, princess and captains as well as their spiritual and secular masters”.

Milutinovich,S.”Istorija Crne Gore”,1835

59) In a 1756 letter main cities in Serbia (La Servie) are mentioned, and among them Skoplje ,where Serbian Archbishop reside; Cratovo,by which province is named (Scopia, ou reside Archeveque Rascien; Cratovo, qui donne son nom au Gouvernement) .

“Le Voyager francois, ou la connoissance de l’ ancien et du noveau monde mis au jour par M. l’ Abbe Delaporte”, tome XXIII, Paris,1777

60) Catholic Archbishop of Skoplje Matija Masarek, an Albanian, reported that the city as inhabited with “Grece, scismatici Serviani, Ebrei et Armeni” in a report written c.1770.

In 1790 he mentioned in his report that Turks are suspicious of Greeks and Serbs of Skoplje because they have sent letters to Russia. “Scritture rif. nei congressi – Servia. Vol. III”, marzo 1790

61) A group of French staff officers in 1807,with the permission of the Turks, traveled around Macedonia compiling a statistical survey of the population. Apart from Greeks,Turks,Albanians and Aromanians they found only Serbs.

Slijepchevich, Dj. “The Macedonian Question”,The American Institute For Balkan Affairs, Chicago,1958

62) Correspondence by the Czech philologist Dobrovski to a Slovenian colleague B. Kopitar between 1809-1810 contains this opinion by Dobrovski: “I have little regard for geographical names.Dubrovnikers, Macedonians, Bosnians are nevertheless Serbs” : “Die geographischen Benennungen kummern mich wenig. Ragusiner, Macedonier, Bosnien sind doch Serben”. Jagich, V. “Briefwechsel zwischen Dobrowsky und Kopitar” Berlin, 1885 pp.34

63) A statement by Joseph Muller, Austrian, Medical officer in Turkish Army in early 19th century, who worked in Albania about Slavs in neighboring countries that were visited by him.Dr. Muller was a fluent speaker of the Serbian language. “Together with Slavic community of Spiz on Triplex confinium and smaller communities in Skadar,Podgorica and Spuzh,Serbian tribes live in eastern mountains Altin-Ili in Dibr-Sipre in the area of Struga as well as in eastern coast of the Ohrid Lake, further in the valleys of Rezna and Prespa in the city of Monastir and its northeastern surrounding, in the valley Srebrnica,and by name on communities of Optorosh,Shrbica,Mahmusha,Mrtvuca,along the left, eastern coast of White Drim in communities of Kremovik, Mirozhizh, Cuprevo, Grebnik, Zlokuche.” Joseph Muller, “Albanien,Rumelien und die Osterreichisch-Montenegrinische Grenze”,Prague,1844

64) “The Serbian pastoral tribes are separated from the Bulgarian agrarian population of Macedonia by the Greeks, who inhabit the central and coastal regions of this great land”. Cyprian Robert, “Les Slaves de Turque” Paris, 1844, Vol. II pp.234

65) “Serbian branch includes, with the exception of Serbian Principate, Montenegro, Bosnia, also many other enclaves in Albania and Macedonia” Cyprian Robert, “Die Slaven der Turkei” Stuttgart, vol.II pp. 278

66) Edmund Spencer’s comment about ethnicity of peoples in the region of Macedonia, visited by him in the mid-19th century: “The inhabitants are for the most part composed of Rayahs, a mixed race of Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians, who, it cannot be doubted, would join to the man their brethren in faith of Serbia and Upper Moesia.It must therefore be evident that the great danger to be apprehended to the rule of the Osmanli in these provinces, is the successful inroad of the Serbian nationality into Macedonia; with this people they have the tradition of right, and their former greatness, aided by the powerful ties of race and creed” Edmund Spencer, “Travels in European Turkey”, vol. II , London, 1851, pp. 30

67) “Serbian tribes are by language and according to origin in possession of the greatest part of western part of European Turkey.At east they are distributed up to Nishava and Struma, Strumion of the Ancients, which goes in the Gulf of Orpheus.From southern to the northern border of Greek language, they inhabit Bosnia, Herzegovina, Old Macedonia.Montenegrins and Dalmatians, although not subjected by the Turks, are of Serbian tribe” Ruestow, W “Der Krieg in der Tuerkey 1875-1876″, Zurich, 1876

68) From 1880 to 1881 the Serbian Brsjaci Revolt (Brsjachka Buna) was fought in the areas of Demir-Hisar,Porech and Kichevo.The leaders of this uprising were local Chetniks:Ilija Delija,Rista Kostadinovich,Micko Krstich and Andjelko Tanasovich. Veselinovich,V.M. “Brsjachka Buna” Beograd 1905

69) A 1854 request of the inhabitants of village Selce near Debar to HRM King Alexander Karadjordjevich. 22 Oktovra Arsenije Janovich,Gavril Janovich,Damjan Markovich, Vasil Milich, Tane Ninovich, Trifun Grujovich, Stanisha Nikolich, Cvetko Damjanovich, Despot Potnikovich, Gligorije Naumovich i Filip Aleksich proshenijem od 21 t.m. mole Knjaza da bi se obshtini ninoi Selachkoi u Albaniji za Crkvu shtogod knjiga pravitelstvom srpskim za sirotinske crkve u Turskoj nabavljeni podarilo. Djambazovski, K. et al. “Arhivska Gragja za istorijata na Makedonskiot narod” Beograd 1979 vol I, book 2, pp. 235

70) On the basis of the Priviligies by Rudolph II many thousands Serbian familes emigrated from Bosnia and Macedonia under the Dukes Vukovich and Pjasonich.

Czoernig, von Carl “Ethnographie der oesterrichischem Monarchie”, Wien, 1885, Vol II pp.169

71) “It is understandable that the Turks preferred the patient and submissive Bulgar to the rebellious Serb or Greek. Since the Serbian principality had gained its freedom, the Turks regarded every Serb who declared himself to be such as a rebellious conspirator against the Turkish regime.

This circumstance was widely exploited by the Bulgars in order to spread their propaganda among the Serbs outside the principality. Whoever was reluctant to become a Bulgar and persisted in calling himself a Serb was denounced to the Turks as conspiring with Serbia, and could expect severe punishment. Serbian priests were maltreated; permission was refused to open Serbian schools and those that were already in existence were closed; Serbian monasteries were destroyed.

In order to avoid persecution, the population renounced its nationality and called itself Bulgarian……..during the last thirty or forty years, propaganda has been rife in which the Bulgars have encouraged the Turks to act against Serbs and Greeks. Hence, throughout Macedonia, Thrace and Dardania, Slavs are considered to be Bulgars, which is quite incorrect. On the contrary, the Slavs in Macedonia are incapable of understanding a Bulgar from Jantra.

If it is desired to designate these Slavs correctly, than they must be considered as Serbs, for the Serbian name is so popular among them that for example male children are sometimes christened “Srbin” [Serb]*. the Serbian hero of the folk poems, Marko Kraljevich is obviously the Serbian ruler in Macedonia.”

Alexander von Heksch “Die Donau von ihrem Ursprung bis an die Mundung”,Leipzig,1885,pp.63

  • On the subject of appearance of the male name “Srbin” (a Serb) ,see:

“Licno ime Srbin u krajevima danasnje BJRM (“male name Srbin in the areas of todays FYROM”) “,pp.41-44 in: Jovan F. Trifunoski “Makedoniziranje Juzne Srbije”, Beograd, 1995

72) In 1886 Russian publicist I.S. Jastrebov published his book “Obichai i pesni tureckih serbov v Prizren,Ipek,Morava,i Dibra” (“Customs and songs of the Turkish Serbs in Prizren,Pech,Morava and Debar) in which the following reference to the important Serb custom of “Slava” is found: “Slava is celebrated by Serbs not only in Serbia,in Austria,Hungary,Bosnia,Montenegro,Kosovo,Morava and area of Prizren,but also in the areas of Skopje,Veles,Prilep,Bitola and Ohrid,including also Debar and the area of Tetovo.All inhabitants in the mentioned area who speak with the Slavo-Serbian dialect keep that custom holy.”

Jastrebov,I.S. “Obichai i Pesni tureckih serbov v Prizren,Ipek,Morava i Dibra”,1886,pp.1-2

73) “Divided by faith on three parts, divided out of political destiny, under various jurisdictions, Serbian race has the missfortune to be dispersed over various provinces, names of which hinther its unity.Serbia, Old Serbia, (in today’s Turkish vilayets of Kosovo and Sandjak) , Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, with Dubrovnik, southern parts of Hungary (Bachka, Srem, Baranja) , Slavonia, Croatia”

Dozon,A. “L’ Europee Serbe, chants popularies heroiques (Serbie, Bosnie et Herzegovine, Croatie, Dalmatie, Montenegro”, Paris, 1888, pp.15-16

74) An observation by the Austro-Hungarian Field Marshal Anton Tuma von Waldkampf: “In Macedonia Serbs are living, partly in the great plain of Bitolj,partly in Vardar plain and are particularly compact in the valley of Tetovo” Anton Tuma von Waldkampf “Griechland,Makedonien und Sudalbanien”,Leipzig, 1897 pp-214-215

75) A conclusion by the linguist Petar Draganov about the songs of “Macedonian Slavs”:”It is a strikingly obvious that within the circle of Cars,Kings,dukes,heroes and other individuals of these songs one can find only persons and significant events from the medieval,new and latest Serbian history”.

P.Draganov “Makedonsko-Slavjanskii Sbornik” pp.VIII (n.d.)

76) “Serbs are in the south of Dalmatia, in the Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia, at the south of the Kingdom of Hungary,in Macedonia” Henry, Rene “Questions d’ Autriche-Hongrie et Question d’ Orient” Paris, 1905, pp.207

77) Remark of Dr. Karl Oestreich about Skoplje: “The city’s population consist of all possible elements-some of whom have come out in favor of the Bulgarian Exarchate and call themselves ‘Bulgars’-and Albanians or Mohammedanized Serbs. Although it is situated south of Sar-planina, Skoplje is the chief city of Old Serbia…..the rural population, although it is Serbian in origin, has for the most parts given its support to the Exarchate, since a Bulgarian bishop is for them more acceptable than a Greek bishop of the Ecumenical Church to which they formerly belonged. This is how the rural population around Skoplje has today come to be mostly Bulgarian; the same is true of the purely Serbian Tetovo”.

Karl Oestreich “Makedonien” Geographische Zeitschrift, Vol.X, No.1, 1904,pp 198-199

78) Referring to the establishment of the Bulgarian Exarchate in Macedonia,Karl Oestreich noted: “A considerable part of the rural population, although it then felt to be Serbian, seized the first opportunity of obtaining Slavic priests and so declared itself to be Bulgarian ……Whoever joined the Bulgarian Exarchate was registered in the Turkish population records as “bulgari-milet” and to the world as large was a Bulgar”.

Karl Oestreich “Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien”,Geographische Zeitschrift,Vol. XI, No.1,1905,pp.291

79) Theodor von Sosnosky wrote about Bulgarian Propaganda in Macedonia: “What this methods were the Greeks, Serbs and Turks of this unhappy land felt on their own backs. By plunder and arson, rape and murder, armed bands tried to make them come to the Bulgarian side”. Theodor von Sosnosky “Die Balkanpolitik Osterreich-Ungars seit 1886,Stuttgart-Berlin,1914, Vol.II,pp.129

80) During World War I, the Bulgarian troops under the command of first lieutenant Alexander Protogerov (a high-ranking VMRO member) were ordered to inflict reprisals upon the population east of Kumanovo for an attack made on some Bulgarian troops .Before the reprisal measures were begun, the entire population declared that it was Bulgarian, purely in order to avoid being punished.Protogerov was greatly perplexed. Here is a quote by Gilbert in der Maur regarding this event: “Then Protogerov’s aides had an idea: they asked who celebrated the ‘slava’.Those who did so were shot, since the celebration of the ‘slava’ is a sign that one is a Serb:it is a custom which the Bulgarians do not have”. Gilbert in der Maur “Jugoslawien einst und jetz” Leipzig-Vienna, 1936,pp.330

81) “Although the Serbian national epic found its fullest realization in the regions of the northwest, nevertheless a considerable part of its material was taken from Southern Serbia.And Vice Versa: many poems which originated elsewhere found their way to Southern Serbia, were sung here and inherited”. Alois Schmaus, “Dichtung”,”Mazedonien: Leben und Gestalt einer Landschaft”,Berlin,1940 pp.106

82) A List of topographical names in Old Serbia (FYROM) with the characteristic Serbian root “Srb-”: Srbinovo, near Tetovo; Srbica, Srbjani , Srbjan Dolence in the Area of Bitolj (Bitola,Monastiri) ;Srbce and Srbci south from Bitolj;Srbinovo in the area of Gorna Dzhumaja (Pirin area in Bulgaria) ;Srbinica,river source near the village of Podles. V.K’nchov “Makedonija” ,Sofia,1900 pp.256 M.A. Vujucic “Recnik mesta u oslobodjenoj oblasti Stare Srbije”,1914,pp.241 V.K’nchov Ibidem pp.191 V. K’nchov Ibidem pp. 238 V. Radovanovic: “Tikves i Rajec”, Etnogr. Zbornik XXIX pp.457 J.F. Trifunoski “Makedoniziranje Juzne Srbije”,Beograd,1995,pp.33 --Boris Godunov (talk) 03:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Macedonian speakers or Macedonian/Bulgarian speakers

The long-term consensus on this article is that the Greek Slavic-speakers speak Macedonian. User:Yogisenact is trying to push through a change to that without discussing here on the Talk Page. He is invited to present his evidence and arguments here in order to build a new WP:CONSENSUS if possible. --Taivo (talk) 20:45, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Notable persons - specification

A question has arisen about specifying notable persons who are Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia. Should they be identified as "Bulgarian"? I say "no". The long-standing general consensus on this page is that these Greco-Slavs are Macedonian and that we don't pick and choose who is Macedonian and who is Bulgarian. --Taivo (talk) 19:25, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Taivo, I'm not quite sure that this was the best way to refactor the page and summarize the question. That summary actually seems to miss the point. The question (which - for those interested - arose here in connection with this edit), actually is not whether all Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia should be identified as Bulgarians, but rather whether the following three individuals included in the Notable persons section: Lyubka Rondova, Atanas Dalchev, and Hristo Smirnenski should be identified as such. As far as I know, there is no contention about them being Bulgarian. Tropcho (talk) 19:55, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't agree with putting the ethnicity of anyone listed in that section as it's not very relevant. The only thing that should be there is their reason for notability (i.e. "Atanas Dalchev, poet, critic and translator"). --Local hero talk 14:49, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
What is your reason to say that the ethnic affiliation is not relevant? And what would be the downside of including it? Tropcho (talk) 23:36, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I just read the article and seems to lead the reader towards the conclusion that the subject of the article is in fact more or less ethnic Macedonians. I see how the reader could be confused, when reading an entire article, and then finding out that most of the prominent representatives of the group were not ethnic Macedonians. Is this why ethnicity is not applicable? I mean, it is generally used in articles about ethnically diverse regions etc. Why not use it when describing a group that is not ethnically homogeneous? --Laveol T 23:51, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
With this particular group, there are not "multiple ethnicities" involved. This is a single ethnic group that speaks a single language. It is, indeed, ethnically homogenous. While the majority of evidence points to Macedonian, there is some small number of linguistics who prefer to point toward Bulgaria. The majority view is to include these Greek Slavic speakers with Macedonian. --Taivo (talk) 00:39, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
So, we should proceed with removing non-ethnic Macedonians from the list. It is as simple as that. Otherwise, we get an article that contradicts itself. --Laveol T 01:12, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Come to think of it again, why even include people who never self-identified as "Slavic Speakers of Greek Macedonia" or even as "Slavic Speakers" etc? Not to mention the fact that most of them had already passed away before the term was coined. --Laveol T 01:17, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't find ethnicity relevant because it has nothing to do with the individuals' inclusion in the list. All they need to be is Slavic-speaking from this part of Macedonia and notable. If this article is to cover all Slavic-speakers from Aegean Macedonia, we shouldn't remove the Bulgarians from the list. I haven't read the entirety of the article, but if it does mostly discuss ethnic Macedonians and is contradictory in including notable Bulgarians, should a separate article for Bulgarians in Greece be created? --Local hero talk 03:28, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I think we might be touching on the very sensitive topic of why this article is here in the first place. And I'm not sure we're able to tackle this question right now. I am starting to have more and more doubts, every time I come back and start reading the article and the talkpage. The very lead says they are a linguistic minority living in Greece. The people on the list were definitely not living in Greece (in their majority) and they were not an exclusively linguistic minority - as part of the Empire they were a religious minority, too. And I'm not even touching on the issue on whether they were speaking Macedonian. Currently the article about Bulgarians in Greece redirects here. God knows why Bulgarians are not discussed. I do not mean the old Macedonians or Bulgarians question, I mean the sizeable Bulgarian minority of economic immigrants to Greece. It increasingly looks like we've made a huge botch of the article by merging them (or possibly by removing all trace of the Bulgarians that are actually Slavic speakers and live in Greece). --Laveol T 06:43, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
There is some confusion here. This article is not about all Slavic speakers living in Greek Macedonia regardless of why they are living there or when they came. It is not about Bulgarian economic immigrants to Greece. It is about the historic population of Slavic speakers who live there. As such, they speak a single dialect/variety of the Macedonian language. --Taivo (talk) 07:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what the article says. And that's why I'm surprised that Bulgarians in Greece redirects here. And that a big portion of the notable people listed here have never actually spoken Macedonian. Sounds like a huge POV fork to me, at least at its present state.--Laveol T 07:40, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
One of the problems that make this messy is that there are Bulgarian nationalists who claim that the Slavic language historically spoken in Greece is Bulgarian and not Macedonian. The majority of linguists place it with Macedonian, but the minority who place it with Bulgarian are vocal. --Taivo (talk) 07:45, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I feel like we are talking in different languages here. My question concerns the people listed here who have never spoken this language, since it is the language that defines the subject of the article. And to what article should they belong to? They were Slavic speakers, that is for sure. They originate from what is now Greek Macedonia. But they are not within the group that is discussed here. So, should we remove them? Or should we explain the situation? --Laveol T 23:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
We're not actually talking different languages. When it comes to those three individuals, we have to ask these questions: 1) Are they natives of Greek Macedonia? 2) Do they speak the Slavic language of Greek Macedonia as their first language? 3) Do they identify with Greek Macedonia as their "motherland"? If the answer to these questions is "Yes", then they should be listed, but without the "Bulgarian" label. They are not "Bulgarian", they are Slavs of Greek Macedonia. In Wikipedia, we regard them as nominally "Macedonian" by consensus. That way we don't get into the political circus of "Are they Macedonian or are they Bulgarian?" However, if we answer "No" to one of more of these questions, then they should not be included here, since they aren't therefore "Slavs of Greek Macedonia". --Taivo (talk) 01:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree with User:Local_hero that if the article is to cover all Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia (as the title warrants), then the historical Bulgarian population of the region (not recent immigrants) should also be included, given that Bulgarian is a Slavic language. In fact, as far as I can tell (I have not read the article in detail), the article already discusses the struggles for ecclesiastical and educational independence of the local Bulgarian communities in the 19th century, and the later political struggles (IMRO). Laveol?

Taivo, do I understand correctly that you are suggesting that we should identify as "Macedonians" or "Slavs of Greek Macedonia" even those of the Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia who self-identified as Bulgarians and who considered the Slavic language of Greek Macedonia to be a dialect of Bulgarian? Could you show me where consensus was reached about that? Tropcho (talk) 20:27, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

And another question(@Local hero): I agree that ethnicity or language are not of primary importance, but isn't it natural when one sees in the list e.g. "Atanas Dalchev, poet", to ask in what language he wrote, or, in the case of e.g. "Anton Yugov, politician" to know in what country he was active (Yugov was Prime Mininster of Bulgaria, 1956- 1962)? We are dealing with a multiethnic region after all. In that sense, it seems to me that it's only added value if we specify the ethnic or language affiliation. What would be a downside of specifying that? Tropcho (talk) 20:36, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Read back through the archives, Tropcho. It has been discussed on numerous occasions and the resulting consensus on what to call these native Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia has always been to call their language "Macedonian" even though Bulgarian linguists often call it "Bulgarian". Otherwise, one is forced to draw a non-existent line between the speakers who call their Slavic language "Macedonian" and the speakers who call their Slavic language "Bulgarian" even though it's the same language in Greek Macedonia. The "Macedonian" and "Bulgarian" labels in that part of Greece have nothing to do with ethnicity or language and everything to do with political affiliation. That's why the Wikipedia consensus in this article is to keep out of the political fray and to not label individuals as "Macedonian" or "Bulgarian". --Taivo (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I can't seem to find where this particular point (how we should refer to people from that region who explicitly self-identified as Bulgarian) was discussed and consensus reached. Could you please provide a link? Furthermore, if we assume that a line indeed does have to be drawn, and if one adopts the approach suggested in your last comment, one would still have to draw that non-existent line between Bulgarian and Macedonian, albeit elsewhere, isn't this correct? Also, what is the presumption that a line has to be drawn based on? Isn't it possible that people with different self-identification live (or lived; it's important to acknowledge the complicated population dynamics of the region) side by side in the same area? Tropcho (talk) 12:58, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
You still completely and totally miss the point. The Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia are not two groups of people who self-identify differently. It is one group of people--ethnically, linguistically, and historically. Other Slavs who have migrated into Greek Macedonia (for jobs, etc.) are not included in this article. I assume that all you did was scan the section titles in the archives. You need to read the entire text to find the discussions. They were never neatly wrapped in a bow with a clear title for you. If a person needs to be specifically identified as a "Bulgarian" or "Macedonian", then they don't belong in this list. If you want them to be overtly called "Bulgarians", then put them in the list at "Bulgarian people" (assuming such an article exists). --Taivo (talk) 17:27, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
Your assumption is wrong. I read through different sections and searched for some key phrases that I would expect to be part of such a discussion about Slavs from Greek Macedonia who self-identify as Bulgarians. I only found a partially relevant but not very conclusive discussion from 2009. I believe that it is up to the person making a claim about existing consensus to substantiate it. (And this should be easy to do, if such a discussion did really take place.) Your evasiveness over such a minor point doesn't really lend credibility to your claims.
Second, your statement about Slavic speakers not being two groups seems to contradict some of the facts. E.g. according to your three step procedure, Lyubka Rondova would qualify as a "Slavic speaker" and a "nominal Macedonian". However, she self-identifies as Bulgarian, unlike other Slavic speakers from the same region who feel they are ethnic Macedonians. This is just one example. The same could be said about a large number of people presently on the Notables list, e.g. Vasil Chakalarov, Atanas Dalchev, Gotse Delchev, Blagoy Shklifov.
And just to get this straight, in your opinion, have any native Bulgarian communities existed in Aegean Macedonia in the last 200 years? Tropcho (talk) 00:56, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The issue has been stable and non-controversial since the last discussion in the 2009s or 2008s. You are the one stirring up controversy where none has existed for years. The point is that the native Slavic community of Greek Macedonia is not Bulgarian. That is a political POV that is not valid. We don't overtly call them "Macedonian" either, but they are "Macedonian" in the sense that they live in Greek Macedonia. The way you have marked them as of this writing ("an officer in the Bulgarian army", e.g.) is not a problem. It doesn't label X, Y or Z as "Bulgarian". You are still fixated on labeling of this ethnic group as "Bulgarian", which they are not. --Taivo (talk) 02:25, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
First of all, it is quite possible (especially with a subject as complex as this one) that consensus would shift as more relevant information and sources are brought in by editors, and as new aspects of the subject discussed. I have actually been reading through the discussions, and it is becoming clear that the particular question I am raising has not been discussed. Also, if what you say about the issue being stable since 2008 or 2009 is true, then the stable version included Bulgarian in the infobox as late as May 2010. (It was removed only then, and without any discussion whatsoever; it seems that at that time Slavic dialects of Greece pointed to another page, which is probably why no one objected to the removal).
Second, I'm not labeling an ethnic group as Bulgarian. I'm saying that historically a significant portion of the Slavic speakers of Aegean (i.e. Greek) Macedonia, including the notable persons mentioned above, have self-identified as Bulgarians. This is a well documented fact. To deny that would imply rather poor familiarity with the subject. Would you like to consider some sources? Also, if we have to care about the opinion of scholars like Danforth and Karakasidou, the kind of simplified narrative about a single, homogeneous ethnic group, which your comments seem to promote, is typical of nationalists - be they Bulgarian, Greek, or Macedonian. Tropcho (talk) 02:59, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
The easiest way to deal with this, if you think that consensus has shifted, is to initiate an official RfC, which would elicit comments from interested editors who might not be reading this thread, but would still have an informed opinion on the issue. --Taivo (talk) 11:39, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the tip. This might indeed be a good idea. I'll think about it. And by the way, to make sure my position is clear: I don't think that consensus has already shifted. But I'm not quite sure that your claims that this kind of consensus ever existed are correct. Tropcho (talk) 01:24, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
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