Talk:Slavic speakers of Greek Macedonia/Archive 1
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First Comments
Hmmm let me see - you use an irredentist qualifier for ethnic Macedonians who allegedly live in Greece. Or whose parents lived in Greece. First of all such an article should not exist. It is some form of POV fork of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. Second it states some ridiculous numbers. Third it completely fails to represent the other POV - I've started calling it the real world POV. There's also a problem with copyright infringement - some passages look like taken as whole from somewhere. This impression is strengthened by the fact that ABECEDAR is always spelled with capital letters - looks like it was copied from another place. Now the next matter: No, you cannot call ethnic MAcedonians simply Macedonians in an article about Greece. There are other Macedonians in Greece as you know more than well. Summing everything up the article is upi for deletion. Given the fact that canvassing would lead the vote to only one possible solution (we already saw that on another place) administrators will have to take things in their own hands. --Laveol T 15:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Kosovski this is going to AFD before you can say Aegean ...-- Avg 17:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Actually one i wasnt finished creating the article yet. And two i will take your concerns into consideration. How is it irredentist? What are the ethnic macedonians who come from greece called?? - Aegean Macedonians. What should we say to the people who were born in Greece and identify as ethnic macedonians?? All population numbers are estimates. Please give constructive critism and the article will benefit. By copyright, i have copied a few sentences from another wikipedia page because they were saying the sae thing, is that not allowed?? Why shouldnt an article exist are you trying to tell me there has NEVER been ethnic macedonians in Greece, and they didnt have children? What about SNOF and NOF who were these people? What about the rainbow political party are they greeks? Stop removing every article and actually contribute to wikipedia. Oh, and please let me finish the article. PMK1 (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Article up for deletion
Please tell me the viable reasons for deleting the pagePMK1 (talk) 22:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- You mean apart from the fact that it was created as a POV fork? You're not naive, you know very well why you started this article.-- Avg 22:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't start it as a POV fork. I started it to inform readers of the Aegean Macedonians, and give some information about them.
Title- Aegean Macedonians
Please tell me if there is another title used by the ethnic macedonians in/from greece which is different to Aegean Macedonians?? if there is the page can be moved.
- I guess "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece" isn't a possibility. Funny how you used the 200,000 estimate despite the other talk page. You folks all seem to lack reading comprehension. 3rdAlcove (talk) 22:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
moved talk from AFD.
- What "Aegean Macedonians" means in the first place? It means the Macedonians who come from "Aegean Macedonia" (an already controversial term). Well it happens that there are 2.5 million people in "Aegean Macedonia" who are Greeks. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", but they're not even mentioned to your article. Anyway, forgetting that, you've started an article detailing the Slavic migration to Macedonia and the Slavic culture in Macedonia, thereby automatically creating the connection that all Slavophones = Ethnic Macedonians. And on top of that you put in the mix dubious figures, controversial claims, irredentist beliefs. So to sum it up: POV fork.-- Avg 22:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- No, it is a regional identifier used by ethnic macedonians to distinguish themselves from other ethnic macedonians. Greeks use the term Greek Macedonian, ethnic macedonians use the term Aegean Macedonian. AND no i am not implying that all the slavophone greeks identify as macedonians, the fact that they share a similar culture and heritage to the ethnic macedonians is UNAVOIDABLE. That is no reason delete an article because they have similarities to another group of people! Dubious figures, go and have a look at the many greek pages and then tell me about dubious figures. Oh, and if i was being irredentist there would be 1,000,000 ethnic macedonians in greece, that is irredentist.PMK1 (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Since you mentioned it, Greeks use the term "Macedonian" and not "Greek Macedonian". This is how they identify themselves. Please have a look at Macedonia (terminology) if you have doubts about it. Now the primary reason to delete this article is that it was created to bypass the established NPOV in Ethnic Macedonians and Slavophone Greeks articles, since it uses data that was debunked/unacceptable in the relevant articles, plus it uses offending and controversial terminology.-- Avg 22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- yes, they only use macedonians as a regional identifier, while their ethnicity is greek. Aegean macedonian means Aegean Macedonia- Regional Identity and Macedonian- Ethnic group. They should also be "Aegean Macedonians", What is this???? They should be Aegean Macedonians??? Then what is their ethnicity?. How ridiculous. And no this article was not designed to bypass the NPOV on Ethnic macedonians and Slavophone greeks. It has nothing to do with slav speakers who identify as greeks, but Ethnic macedonians from Greece who identify as ethnic macedonians. Offending terminology?? Please expain.PMK1 (talk) 07:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
WTF?
It states 10,000 to 200,000 Slavomakedonians in Greece!!!!!!!!!!! Their party in elections hardly gets more than 7,000. Where are the other 193,000 "oppressed"?People who consider themselves affiliated to the citizens of FYROM aren't more than 10 -15,000.And probably even that, is an exaggeration.Some villages outside Florina.That's all.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 10:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well according to Greek Diaspora there are 3,000,000 greeks in America, 700,000 in Australia, 370,000 in Germany, Canada in 450,000, 400,000 in Albania, 120,000 in South Africa and on Greeks there are 400,000 greeks in Biritan even when the source say only 300,000!. These estimates are all permitted on Wikipedia. Oh, and also since when is an Ethnic Macedonian forced to vote for the Rainbow Party? Why vote for a party which might not have any influencePMK1 (talk) 11:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
First of all if you check the diaspora discussion page i oppose the inflated numbers of Greek diaspora.Anyway Britain and Australia count only the Greek-born as Greeks and not the rest but that's not my point.My point is that 99% of the Slavophone community in Greece feels strongly Greek and they felt so even in the turmoil year's of 1904 - 1914 for the region.You can't just guess a number and put 200,000.I lived all my life in Macedonia and if there was such a great number i would have known. As for the Rainbow party,well if a minority of this size (200,000 even 1 million claimed by your government) is allegedly so harshly oppressed the least we should expect would be them to support the party for their rights. Wiki is an encyclopedia and numbers straight out of irredentist leaflets can't be allowed here. --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:03, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Actually Australia counts ancestry, but i agree with you as well. Where there are official census figures they should be used. But in Greece there are none so only non biased estimate's should be used (they have been provided). Now, the figure of 1,000,000 is ridiculously high, i will agree to that. 200,000 is a more sober estimate. I think you will agree that somewhere between 10,000 and 200,000 is the true number of Ethnic macedonians. I do not think that the 200,000 figure should just be removed when it is sourced (+ many non macedonian sources put the figure at c.200,000) when some people percieve it to be too high. Rather having it as an estimate would be a NPOV as the official figures are unknown. But once again 1,000,000 is a ridiculous estimate. PMK1 (talk) 11:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I have never ever in my life met any Greek citizen claiming to be Slavomacedonian.I made quite a few trips in the region and i live in Thessaloniki which gathers people from all Macedonia so isn't quite strange?I think the minority is found only in Florina region.I don't say it trying to downplay the number,and if it was the opposite i would also have stated but they are not even close to 40-50,000.200,000 seems like an extra-terrestrial number to me also.Anyway if it is sourced yes.But the source must be a serious third party one and even in that case it's simply a guess.Noone knows better than the Greek state itself.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 18:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- yes, but what is a good source? Can you see what i am trying to say? Also how can greek government be 100% trusted when they claim 3,000,000 greeks in america and 700,000 in australia (The real numbers are just under half of those). And if you noticed i did not use any sources from the macedonian government nor ethnic macedonian activists. 3rd Party sources have been used. PMK1 (talk) 08:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The 3,000,000 isn't a greek government claim.It's USA data.Anyway i saw that Britannica claims 1,8% of the population to be Slavomacedonians.I can't see where this number is based,and i disagree with that but nevertheless is accepted as a source.--Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 11:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Mr, Kocovski let me remind you some things that are pretty serious: Firstly, the Greek Government hasn't had irredentist issues for at least half a century. What is visible is that in FYROM, irrendentism is at its rise. If I talk from the perspective of a third party then I would say that the Greek Government may not say the numbers accurately but from the latter things you said about 3,000,000 USA estimates and 2,500,000 Greek Estimates of the Greek Diaspora I can understand that there is some difference between FYROM putting numbers like 1,000,000 and Greece. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.147.118 (talk) 11:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Points of Discussion
This is the section where major points of the Article should be discussed. Please put your objections here so that they can be adressed.PMK1 (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Point 1-
Article name Aegean Macedonians or Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. I believe some users have expressed concern that Aegean Macedonians may be ambiguous. That is a legitimate point and should be discussed. NB: crap about being offended or about irredentism is not worth taking note of. BalkanFever 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Please watch your language. Are you not civilized?--Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think that this article shoud be renamed in Ethnic Macedonians in Greece,afterall it is talking about Ethnic Macedonians,or minority of Ethnic Macedonians in Greece.Makedonij (talk) 14:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I disagree. The greek state and the international community does not recognize such a nation (ethnos). Until it does, you may not use Ethnic Macedonian. This whole name issue is so silly. Instead of trying to progress economically within your country, the european and international community, you're worrying about a name. Why not be called Southern Serbia or Eastern Albania? --Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Have you any idea how harsh that is? It's one of the worst offenses I can imagine! Ask youself, why not call your country Western Turkey? You really have nerves... I'm angry at all the admins allowing this. --iNkubusse? 18:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
I would like to make two points. First - This article should not be deleted. First it has references, and second it is analogical to the article Pontic Greeks. Second - about the naming it can be Ethnic Macedonians of Greece, because it shows that is it not only about those that still live in Greek Macedonia, but also in Republic of Macedonia, Canada and so on. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 07:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Revizionist, if you don't think the article should be deleted, make your opinion known at the discussion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians
I would repeat once again that I am against deleting an article that is backed with so many references. I must add that I am OK with both the name Aegean Macedonians and ethnic Macedonians of Greece as names of this article. maybe the second would be better, for it would be a conglomerate article about those people with ethnic Macedonian conscience that live in Greece, and those that are refugees in R. Macedonia, Canada, Australia and so on. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 13:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Point 2-
My second point would be that if the Aegean Macedonians article is deleted, than we you may as well delete the Pontic Greeks article, for the articles are analogical. --Revizionist (talk) 13:14, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with you,and i think both of them shoud stay!!NO DELETEING.Makedonij (talk) 14:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Point 3-
Point 4-
Point 5
Kostas Novakis
Are there any RS about his self-identification? There seems to be no agreement on that. 3rdAlcove (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is an excerpt from a Dnevnik article. He calls his wife "Grecian". This is about a gathering of Aegean Macedonians in Bitola, where Novakis was a guest. BalkanFever 13:13, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Aegean Macedonians is analogical to Pontian Greeks and to Cham Albanians. The name Aegean Macedonians refers to both the people that identify themselves as ethnic Macedonians and live in Greece, and those that live as refugees in R.Macedonia and in the diaspora. --Revizionist (talk) 13:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting. What do you call an ethnic Macedonian not living in Macedonia (say, he lives in Epirus)? Btw, say a family moves from Macedonia to the Republic. After how many generations do you stop calling them "Aegean Macedonians" (until they forget, perhaps)? Thanks! Edit: Also, say, a family from the Republic moves to Macedonia, are they included under "Aegean Macedonians"?
- Ah, and my question to BF was about whether they live in Macedonia or in the Republic now. 3rdAlcove (talk)
The same as you call a Pontic Greek that refuged from Trapezund to Kilkis. Or A Pontic Greek family that emigrated from Thessaloniki to Larisa. Or a Cham Albanian that emigrated from Vlora to Tirana. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:27, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- You didn't answer the first or the third question, though. 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
As I said it is analogical. For example, as you will see in the Pontic Greek article, the Pontian diaspora includes both Pontic Greeks in Greece and both Pontic Greeks or people of Pontic Greek descent in the diaspora or other countries. Also a ethnic Macedonian that comes from R.Macedonia to Greek Macedonia is not an Aegean Macedonian - he is an emigrant from R.Macedonia in Greece. Everything you asked me is analogical with Pontic Greeks. Everything. Regards --Revizionist (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Man, stop with the 'analogical'. Ok, and what about the last question? How do you call an ethnic Macedonian living in any part of Greece other than Macedonia? Simply "Macedonian"? 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- We call all of them simply Macedonians. But as for regional and cultural heritage we call all ethnic Macedonians that have decent from Greek Macedonia - Aegean Macedonians. If an ethnic Macedonian from Greece lives in Athens, he is an Aegean Macedonian, for he has originated from Aegean Macedonia - that is why i say it is analogical to Pontic Greeks. If a Pontic Greek lives in Istanbul he is still a Pontic Greek, for his origin and culture is connected to Pontous. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The answer will be given if you ask yourself what is the difference in culture between the Greeks in Albania and the Greeks in Thesally. For example, the language of the ethnic Macedonians in R.Macedonia and in Greek Macedonia is the same, the songs, rituals are 90% the same, but still there are several songs and dances that are specific for them - like Mori chupi Kosturcanki and so on. This is a conglomerate of both regional, ethnographic and historical identity, as it is for the Pontic Greeks. Regards. --Revizionist (talk) 14:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- You really love those Pontic Greeks, don't you? Thanks, specific songs do cut it. ;) 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Btw, are the Argeads considered "Aegean Macedonians" in the official historiography of the Republic? Or simply Grkomani? 3rdAlcove (talk) 20:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, i have just gone onto the greek diaspora page and added up the number of greeks in the countries surrounding the black sea. (where pontic greeks are from) And the total number was - 212,901 what does the article claim 3,000,000 (est.)!!! Does that mean there are 2,800,000 pontic greeks in greece!? PMK1 (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
"Niel Simpson, Macedonia;Its Disputed History,Aristoc Press.1994"
Would the user who added the ref be so kind as to give us some info about it? Perhaps a website link, an abstract etc. 3rdAlcove (talk) 15:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
- If you find the link on the internet good luck. But if you request i can give you the terminology in which the text was used. I have the book. PMK1 (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Template:cite book is good for this. BalkanFever 08:14, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
(un)Yes, obviously can't find it. In any case, it doesn't state anything that looks like POV (well, a few estimates maybe, but who knows). 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
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Estimates
I changed the estimate back to 30,000. If you really feel I'm POV-pushing here, PLEASE take a look at the relevant discussion on the talk page of Macedonians (ethnic group) and don't start edit warring. Discuss, instead. 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Actually the discussion on Ethnic Macedonians talk page, has turned into a question of whether someone will be punched in florina, so lets discuss it here? Why do you keep reverting to the old Helsinki Numbers, when there are many other sources saying otherwise? PMK1 (talk) 07:32, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, like I said, only Britannica mentions 200,000 Macedonians and doesn't give its source. All the others use Helsinki which clearly makes the distinction between "M" and "M speakers". So, where did Britannica find 200,000 Macedonians when the others find 30,000 at best? B being a tertiary source should not be preferred (though it'd be nice to know whether it misinterpreted other sources -M vs M speakers- or simply used a yet undiscovered one). 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Delete article
Such article usually come together following a debate. This did not take place. Also, the article seems opportunistic and irredentist in inspiration. Please delete. Politis (talk) 12:49, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm with you politis. This is just another attack on Greek ethnicity by the usual suspects. Now they are telling Greeks who speak Slavic languages and identify as ethnic Greeks that they are ethnically related to FYROM citizens? It's truly bizarre these requests. --Crossthets (talk) 08:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
AfD
- Reasons for deleting this article.
- On 17 April 2008 an international panel discussion was held in Brussels, at the European Parliament. Its subject was 'The Ignored Minorities of Greece'. It was organised by the EFA parliamentary group and concerned the "Turkish" and "ethnic Macedonian" minorities in Greece with speakers representing those communities. At no time, before, during or after was there any mention of 'Aegean Macedonian', neither did this term appear in any of the hand-outs or books available. This term is not a recognised term by the very people whom it targets. Politis (talk) 16:12, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
If the people whom it targets do not use it, then the seriousness, relevance and appropriatness of the article is seriously flawed. We might as well introduce articles on 'Aegean Macedonians' in the sense of Greek Macedonians who live along the Aegean coastline, or 'Greek Pelagonians' for those who lived between Florina and Krushevo. Sorry, the topic is touched upon in other articles. Politis (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well seeing as there arent any macedonians in other sections of greece it seems appropriate to name them so. Seeing as the greek community of macedonia(region) is mainly in Greek Macedonia, they only need to identify as Greek Macedonians. If you wish to create an article Greek Pelagonians then you are free to do so. PMK1 (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
This should not be deleted
The Aegean Macedonians are infact a subgroup of Ethnic Macedonians but because of their experiences under Greece, have differences which cause them to be a subgroup:
- Church affiliation (Macedonian Orthodox Church vs Greek Orthodox Church)
- Last names (-SKI, -OFF, -OV vs -OS)
- 1913-present history and experiences (Division of Macedonia)
- War Involvement (ASNOM vs SNOF)
- Aegean Macedonians have a different view and experience because of the affects of Hellenization after 1913, they even call themselves Aegean Macedonian or Macedonian from the Aegean
And Greeks, again "Aegean" is simply Geographic terms, like you state "Macedonian" is Geographic for yourselves. This portion of the ethnicity even fought a completely different war then the rest of the Ethnic Macedonians. Mactruth (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- You can say that at the deletion page: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aegean Macedonians. BalkanFever 08:21, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Don't worry, btw. United Macedonians will prevail again. You folks already have more votes. Wikipedia article today, Aegean Macedonia tomorrow. *drumroll* 3rdAlcove (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oh please PMK1 (talk) 23:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wow 3rdAlcove, Aegean Macedonians are the same as "Greek Macedonians." Aegean is the region, Macedonian is the ethnicity. They have a different history and consequences due to the division of Macedonia in 1913 and the Greek Civil War. It's the same as saying Macedonian is the region, Greek is the ethnicity, different histories because of different rulers etc. Mactruth (talk) 01:38, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oh please PMK1 (talk) 23:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Zigomanis
Hey guys,Zigomanis is Greek Macedonians not Slav.He is also member of the greek national team so be careful with what you write here.Wikipedia should not be a place for propaganda85.74.142.154 (talk) 22:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- There has been arguments whether Zigomanis is Greek or Macedonian, the fact that he is on the Greek national team doesn't tell us much about his origins/ethnicity. Please provide clear evidence that he is Greek. Mactruth (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Deletion?
What the hell is going on? We have articles like Slavophone Greeks and Slavika and then Greek editors are calling this article a POV-fork. --Hegumen (talk) 10:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Article makes nonsense of the subject
This article is seriously flawed. Many of its sources are partisan, if not dubious. The people whom it targets (and the Vinozhito/Ouranio Toxo representatives) of the Slavophone Macedonians of Greece do NOT identify as 'Aegean Macedonians'. Even though the term with reference to a people only began in 1947 (or around then), we have a serious issue of back dating it. And now it seems that attempts to rectify the situation will be labeled in derogatory term. At the very least this article needs to re-written. I am only interested in facts and especially in bona fide, original source documentsUser:Politis
I cannot speak for your encounters. But I have met, eat, drank and travelled with Greek (Slavo) Macedonians, including so called autonomist sympathisers. None of them said 'Aegean Macedonian', they all agreed on 'ethnic Macedonian' as opposed to 'Greek Macedonian'. In all their communications, Vinozito stresses 'Greek citizens and ethnic Macedonians'. [No one in Europe asks what is your ethnic group, just, 'where are you from']. Politis (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes you are right but if you speak to someone say in greek and he says he's from macedonia, you would assume he's a greek from greek macedonia, or a greek macedonian. Similar to an ethnic macedonian, if you ask him what village his from and he says Kotori/Lerinsko (Kato Idroussa ,florina), you say ah an Egejc (Aegean Macedonian) he says yes. Of course the political party would stress that they are Ethnic Macedonians because that is the WHOLE ethnic group, aegean macedonians are comparable to a subgroup. PMK1 (talk) 22:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Something which I didn't realize at first is what INkubusse noted on the vote for deletion page:
- "Aegean Macedonians" doesn't mean "Ethnic Macedonians in Greece"; it's the name for all Macedonians originating from Aegean Macedonia. Many of them live in EU countries, RoM and overseas countries. See Marek Jankulovski as an example.
- The people discussed in this article are many and live all around the world. Their plight is well documented and therefor deserve an article of their own. As INkubusse noted, the term is not synonymous with Ethnic Macedonians in Greece, which needs to be a separate article in itself. --Hegumen (talk) 03:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Something which I didn't realize at first is what INkubusse noted on the vote for deletion page:
- Ethnic Macedonians of Greece as Revizionist suggested BalkanFever 03:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
350,000
i noticed that there has been some edit warring regardind the numbers 350,000+ vs. 100,000-200,000. I placed the country sections below it so that i wouldnt be accuse of saying that there was 350,000 ethnic macedonians in greece. That is why the countries section is below to disambiguate, Just a comment. PMK1 (talk) 12:36, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Polibiush: "This is an estimate, that includes the diaspora." Isn't the whole diaspora included in the infobox? If not, what other countries are home to the 150-200,000 remaining Ms? 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Opening Comment
"Aegean Macedonians" (Macedonian: Егејски Македонци) or simply "Aegeans" (Macedonian: Егејци) refers to those ethnic Macedonians who live in, or who originate from, the Greek region of Macedonia. Hi, i was just wondering if the opening paragraph is satisfactory or if it could be improved any comments? PMK1 (talk) 08:32, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, I have no strong opinion either way on the content, I'm just stopping in as an uninvolved admin, who is helping out in areas where there may be ethnic disputes (see WP:WORKGROUP). My first question though, would be, "Are there sources which make that definition?" Also, on the list of "notables", do we have sources for each of those names, which clearly state, "This person was an Aegean Macedonian"? If not, anything unsourced should be removed, per WP:V. --Elonka 19:20, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Excellent "Minority Rights" Source
I found this source which gives detail of the ethnic Macedonians in Greece (Aegean Macedonians or simply to Macedonians as "Aegeans"). The source states history, population, and other informative information. Please read and add to the article accordingly (I have been banned for 2 months from doing it) http://www.minorityrights.org/?lid=1513 Mactruth (talk) 02:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Aegean Macedonians as Greeks?
Do Greeks in the Diaspora really indentify as Aegean Macedonians? The Source is very dubious. Which macedonian calles the ROM, skopje?, slav macedonia?, Makedonska? (macedonian)? The last one would be like calling Greece, Greek and Turkey, Turkish! Also romania and "Magyarszag"? that is the term for Hungary in Hungarian! Who calls egypt the UAR , and turkey the Ottoman Empire? What a ridiculously sources piece of information?! PMK1 (talk) 04:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- Most ethnic Greeks in Macedonia Greece call themselves flatly "Macedonians"... not "Aegean" Macedonians not even "Greek" Macedonians. Even some in the diaspora that come from Macedonia Greece refer to themselves as "Macedonians" and will only qualify "Greek" when asked further questions (e.g. Greek or Slavic?). Ethnic Greek Macedonians in Greece would probably be another Greek nation (ala Cypriots) called Macedonia....if they didn't so strongly already identity with Greek ethnicity. Aegean Macedonians is what FYROM citizens refer to as ethnically slavic citizens in Macedonia Greece that related to FYROM. (and also former Slavic Greek citizens that were ejected for being irredentist communists during the Greek Communist civil war). In addition there are a few Slavic language speaking Macedonians in Greece that don't identify as ethnic FYROM citizens but as ethnic Greeks.
- All told... there appear to be roughly 7000 or so Greek citizens that identify under the term "aegean Macedonians" and relate to FYROM (I base that number on the Rainbow Party totals... the only reliable numbers for their true numbers). The remaining 2.5 million Macedonians in Greece relate to themselves as ethnically Greek... as well as the 7.5 million Greeks that aren't modern regional Macedonians but as the indigenous people of the region still see themselves as related to ancient ones. --209.161.229.95 (talk) 16:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Looks like political editing
- Lets no run around different terms. The source is from the "Australian Bureau of Statistics, catalogue no. 1269.0". It indicates that there were Greeks who identified as originating from the Aegean Islands and Aegean Macedonian.
- Regarding the self-appelation, go to florina.org, the site of the representatives of the community. The authors of the website never refer to their community or to themselves as Aegean Macedonians but as ethnic Macedonians. Likewise when they go to the European Parliament, it is always as ethnic Macedonians. Therefore the information is correct and sourced. Politis (talk) 16:23, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- Huh? The Australian source you give [1] is about countries, not ethnicities. It instructs Australian civil servants that if an immigrant tells them he was born in "Aegean Macedonia", they should count him as being born in Greece. The source contains nothing about whether it is ethnic Greeks or ethnic Macedonians who use that term. The other thing, about the term never having been used as a self-appellation in Greece, that's blatantly your OR and unsourced, and absence of evidence in one particular source (florina.org) is not evidence of absence, as you should well know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think you are interpreting the instructions to Australian civil servants. If absence of evidence is a valid reason, then anything that lacks a source is valid. Obviously not, so prove it then that the term is accepted (a few one-off is not a source) as a self-designation within Greece and by Greek citizens of whatever ethnicity. florina.org are quite clear in their self-appelation and it is not AM. Also, most of us are not 24/7 on wikipedia, so assumptions and comments on what people should know are a tad offensive. Or one can resign from administrator and we can enjoy wikipedia. Politis (talk) 16:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- The task of proving anything is on you. As long as we have no specific sources either way, the question of whether the term is used in the specific context of self-appellation in Greece is not an issue for us. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is a general rule of logic, not a rule of wikipedia, so yes, you ought to be familiar with it. And the thing about what the Australian document means is obvious to everybody who can read. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:00, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
- You source is also questionable when someone born in "Magyarszag" should be counted as born in Romania? [2]? PMK1 (talk) 01:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- It also states someone who says they are born in "Macedonia" should be counted as born in this country. Somehow, I don't think Politis will like that. BalkanFever 02:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Persecution and Discrimination
i am responding to selekousa's comments on the Slavophone Greeks talk page. I plan on using neutral western sources, not greek or macedonian ones.
- "By 1959 several 'language oaths' had been introduced whereby the inhabitants of certain villages would "renownce their Slavic dialect and speak only Greek"
- in 1959 around Florina (Lerin) and Kastoria (Kostur) villages, were asked to confirm publicly in front of officials that they did not speak macedonian. Hugh Poulton-Who are the Macedonians, page 163.
- Two elderly villagers told the mission of the 1959 sessions in three villages in which all villages were taken to a central square and forced to swear they would not speak "the slavic idiom" [ie. Macedonian]. - Helsinki Right Watch.
That is sourced from=>
- The minority right groups reports: "[I]n 1959 in the villages aournd Lerin, Kostur and Kajlari the inhabitants were asked to confirm publicly in front of officials that they did not speak Macedonian.
We were not born yesterday selekousa, i nor the other users have to prove to you that these events happened. Some people will never understand. It is like denying the holocaust or the armenian genocide ever happened. PMK1 (talk) 07:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- Since you failed to answer my comments (and you only saw the "oaths") let me add them here also so that the other editors could have a look.I am not the one you have to convince. Is everyone else! And the fact that this article is based mainly on strangely quoted sources and even in pure propaganda lies (such as the supposed Law No 87/1936) gives a hint of what this article contains.Distorting real facts in order to serve POV is certainly not the way to contribute. (Especially when in fact only 2 villagers say that the oath happened in 3 villages in one occasion. Were are the several villages??? Which villages around Kastoria, and Florina? Read more carefully below to see how the suposed sources are actually a Greek newspaper from 1959)The below text is from the talk page of Slavophone Greeks.
I do have the feeling that various sources are used to back up POV claims while in fact the source probably says otherwise or nothing about the specific subject.Just to demonstrate how sources were used in this article lets see some examples.
The KKE expressed its intent to "fight for the national self-determination of the repressed (ethnic) Macedonians".
The above text is supported by this source. “KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946.”
Can we see the specific paragraph from this book? I somehow doubt that in 1931-36 KKE had any idea about the Slav-Macedonian plans of Tito.
And another passage :
Owing to the KKE's equal treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Greeks, many ethnic Macedonians enlisted as volunteers in the DSE 60% of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians. It was during this time that books written in the Macedonian language were published and ethnic Macedonians cultural organizations theatres were opened.[21] According to information announced by Paskal Mitrovski on the I plenum of NOF on August 1948, about 85% of the Slavic-speaking population in Greek Macedonia had an ethnic Macedonian self-identity. It has been estimated that out of DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.
The above paragraph is backed by these sources : "Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432).
Simpson, Neil (1994). Macedonia Its Disputed History. Victoria: Aristoc Press, 101,102 & 91. ISBN 0646204629. Both sources are used to back up more claims in this article. Can we see the paragraph that suggests the above? (Especially from the Greek book?)
And this
- ”However the situation deteriorated after the Communists lost the Greek Civil War. By 1959 several 'language oaths' had been introduced whereby the inhabitants of certain villages would "renownce their Slavic dialect and speak only Greek"
.[39] referenced by “ Denying Ethnic Identity: the Macedonians of Greece: the Macedonians of Greece, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, New York, 1994” Again the reality is different. Acording to Vlassis Vlasidis - Veniamin Karakostanoglou [[3]] in their article “Recycling Propaganda:Remarks on Recent Reports on Greece's "Slav-Macedonian Minority” things were completely different :
“ Peasants in Greek Western Macedonia were forced to take a public oath, declaring they would never use their mother Slavic tongue again. Whitman says (p. 8) that such ceremonies took place in "several" villages and (p. 40 note 59) "in the villages around Lerin, Kostur and Kajlari the inhabitants were asked to confirm...". MRG-GR says in "many" villages, and Poulton that "villagers were asked to make public declarations" (p. 6). MRG-GR is drawing information from Greek newspapers, Malcolm from Poulton, Poulton from Andonofski (who also talks about "several" villages)25, Whitman from Danforth, Danforth from Stoyan Pribichevitch26, Pribichevitch from the American Consul General in Thessaloniki, and the last one most likely from the Greek newspaper Ellinikos Vorras (July 8, 1959, August 5, 1959, August 11, 1959). In fact such oaths were indeed taken by villagers after church service under yet unknown circumstances, probably at the initiative of local officials. Apparently they were discontinued once they became known to authorities in Athens. But the villages were definitely no more than three out of a total of 2,500 communities scattered in Greek Macedonia27."
And my favorite. The article says :
“Their native speech was banned in everyday use and even within their own households while personal names were also forcibly changed from Macedonian to Greek ones”
The reference given by the author is this : “Law No. 87 of 1936 Ordered all Macedonians to change their names to Greek names”. Unfortunately for this reference there was never a law for changing Slavic surnames to Greek ones. Acording to Vlassis Vlasidis - Veniamin Karakostanoglou [[4]] in their article “Recycling Propaganda:Remarks on Recent Reports on Greece's "Slav-Macedonian Minority” they are very clear :
Lois Whitman took for granted (p. 6 note 15) an undated report by the Association of Refugee Children from "Aegean Macedonia" which said that by Law No 87/1936 Slavic surnames had to be changed. Similar references are given by Popov and Radin. Still, all of our attempts to trace state laws calling for the change of surnames were in vain. And certainly the law cited is quite irrelevant to the subject mentioned.”
Seleukosa (talk) 16:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- Just to protect some editors from embarrassment the Law No 87/1936 (that supposedly forced people to change Slavic surnames to Greek ones) is actually a law about the social security of the lawyers of Greece (free translation)
- (here it is in Greek : “ν. 87/1936 περί ιδρύσεως ταμείου προνοίας παρ’ εκάστω δικηγορικώ συλλόγω”).
- It is not enough not to be born yesterday. You also have to check the sources before you use them. Otherwise false information will appear.
- Seleukosa (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- If the citation is misleading, and not in accord with WP:VERIFY and WP:Reliable sources, remove both the citation and the cited text. Factual accuracy is jeopardized, unless a proper source is provided.--Yannismarou (talk) 17:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- Just to protect some editors from embarrassment the Law No 87/1936 (that supposedly forced people to change Slavic surnames to Greek ones) is actually a law about the social security of the lawyers of Greece (free translation)
- Just for the record this is what Riki Van Boeschoten, "Code-switching, Linguistic Jokes and Ethnic Identity,Reading Hidden
Transcripts in a Cross-Cultural Context", Journal of Modern Greek Studies 25(Johns Hopkins University Press 2006) 347, writes about it "It was in this context that in 1959, on the initiative of local government officials, in some Slav-speaking villages a most peculiar ritual took place, in which the inhabitants gathered in the square and took a collective oath never to speak their native language again (Kostopoulos 2000:234–242). From a historical viewpoint, these ceremonies could be considered as only marginal episodes. (According to existing documentation only three villages were involved.) For anthropologists, however, they may appear as an important moment in Greek nation-building (Karakasidou 2002:195), or as a meaningful starting point to look at conflicting linguistic attitudes. The oath [...] was published in the Athenian newspaper Sfera on 1 September 1959. This was the text pronounced by the inhabitants of a village near Florina on 10 August 1959, standing in the schoolyard and surrounded by military and political leaders of the region." I have to note though that despite its marginality the whole affair was indeed disgraceful--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Language Oaths
- You have raised many issues, it is easier this way. One of the sources i used was the Greek helsinki monitor report. The statement was referenced by this <ref.Denying Ethnic Identity: the Macedonians of Greece: the Macedonians of Greece, Human Rights Watch/Helsinki, New York, 1994 </ref>. On page 40 it clearly states the information. It does talk to the two villagers, but then it has a reference to Minority Rights Groups, Minorities in the Balkans, page 31.. In Hugh Poultons, Who are the Macedonians? p.163. in 1959 in the villages around Florina and Kastoria were ... Basically the exact same thing.
What i find interesting is that your source does not deny these things happened. rather: In fact such oaths were indeed taken by villagers after church service under yet unknown circumstances, probably' at the initiative of local officials. Apparently they were discontinued once they became known to authorities in Athens., the way in which the sources are presented , aparently and probably, does not actually tell me YES, the oaths were discontinued, NO, they continued. I definately agree with the last statements, only three villages were taken to oath, that is not being challenged. Also when news of the oaths have been put into the media [Greek Newspaper] trying to claim they did not occur is very hard. The source does not add a reference at the end of the statements, but rather another comment originating from the authors. So unless sourced, It is the opinion of Vlassis Vlasidis and Veniamin Karakostanoglou that: "oaths were indeed taken by villagers ... probably at the initiative of local officials" and "Apparently they were discontinued once they became known to authorities in Athens" . PMK1 (talk) 03:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Native Speech
It is well known that the Macedonian language has been restricted in the past and some levels still aplly. Formal criminilization of the Macedonian langauge began during the Metaxas Regime. After creating the ABECEDAR primer, the greek government took a backflip and criminilized the use of the Macedonian language. Back then it was also known as "Slav-Macedonian", "Macedonian-Slavic", "Bulgarian", "Macedonian" or just "Slavic". Today linguists are of the opinion that the language spoken in West/Central Macedonia is Macedonian. During the time of the Metaxas regime, people could be fined or beaten for speaking the "slavic/local idiom". It is interesting that in "Hugh Poulton's, Who are the Macedonians? , p.88": "the greek representative to the league [of nations], Vasilis Dendramis, defended it [the language] on the gorunds that the Macedonian Slav language was "neither Bulgarian, nor serbian, but an independant language.
- The HELSINKI report says, that according to a president ot a town council, In 1936 the language [Macedonian] was banned by the Metaxas dictatorship and local were persecuted for using it. If you said so much as stop or go in the local language, you were fined and made to drink castor oil.
- Hugh Poulton's, Who are the Macedonians? , p.88 also claims that the language was forbidden, and that there were penalties, a reference to the Macedonian PEN centre is made.
- From a book by Peter Hill, an extensive writer on Macedonians, "The Macedonians in Australia" p.7, "With the advent of the Ioannis Metaxas regime, conditions for Slav Macedonians became intolerable. Their native speech was prohibited even in their own homes. Also "The second wave [of Maceodnian immigration to australia] occured in 1936 when the Metaxas regime too control in Greece".
- Neil Simpson, Macedonia It's Disputed History, p.66 "In August 1936 the Metaxas dictatorship came about, resulting in the restoration of the monarchy and the intenisifcation of repression [of macedonians]", " A law was soon introduced which forbade the use of the Macedonian language".
- The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency, Sydney, Pollitecon Publications, 1995; p.33. "The Dictatorial regime established in 1936 under General Metaxas adopted a policy of forced assimiliation towards the Macedonian minority. The represssion on the macedonians minority in Greece was further stepped up. Macedonians were forbidden to speak their language in public and deportations to the islands became usual government practice."
- Macedonia: The Politics of Identity and Difference, Jane Cowan, p.57. "It was also in that era. The Metaxas regime, banned by law. One could be severly fined for using it in private conversations..."
- Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis p.66. "the available information is enough to gauge the compulsary methods of assimilation adopted by Metaxas. These included, in the first place, prohibitions against the local slavic idiom"
PMK1 (talk) 07:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
The KKE
In response to this queery "Owing to the KKE's equal treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Greeks, many ethnic Macedonians enlisted as volunteers in the DSE (60% of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians).[20] It was during this time that books written in the Macedonian language were published and ethnic Macedonians cultural organizations theatres were opened.[21] According to information announced by Paskal Mitrovski on the I plenum of NOF on August 1948, about 85% of the Slavic-speaking population in Greek Macedonia had an ethnic Macedonian self-identity. It has been estimated that out of DSE's 20,000 fighters, 14,000 were Slavic Macedonians from Greek Macedonia.[22][23]".
The first source ""Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432). " is from this page National Liberation Front (Macedonia), the text is "Owing to the KKE's equal treatment of ethnic Macedonians and Greeks, many ethnic Macedonians enlisted as volunteers in the DSE (60 per cent of the DSE was composed of ethnic Macedonians).[23]" and reference 23 is "Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432)." I cannot tell you any further information about the source.
As for the second source "Simpson, Neil (1994). Macedonia Its Disputed History. Victoria: Aristoc Press, 101,102 & 91. ISBN 0646204629." it was used twice in the quoted text. The first qoute [21] is from this sentence: "During the Greek Civil War many Macedonian language and cultural institutions were opened. Cultural and Theatrical groups were opened. Books and teaching instruments had been brought in from the newly created People's Republic of Macedonia. By 1949 over 10,000 Macedonians been enrolled at Macedonian language schools."
the second [23] => "There was a strong Macedonian autonomist wing in the KKE at this time, which is hardly surprising given that a large proportion of the fighters were from the Aegean Macedonia region. It is estimated that of the 25,000 fighters in 1948, 11,000 - 14,000 were Macedonian speaking. They were organised in the NOF, the National Liberation Front, which was the successor of SNOF ... "
In reference to your first queery this source "KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946. ". is from the Communist Party of Greece page, which clearly states "In 1934, the KKE expressed its intent to "fight for the national self-determination, and ultimately secession, of the repressed Macedonians and Thracians, and to collaborate for this goal with the Bulgarian organizations of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization and the Thracian Revolutionary Organisationunder a People's Republic were all Nations will found their self determinations and will build the common state of the workers...".[6]." the source [6] is "KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946. ". I myself have not seen the source but i have used the same quotation. PMK1 (talk) 07:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Changing of Personal Names
It is well known that before 1913 Slavs in greek Macedonia had slavic names, eg Tošev, Stojanov, Veloski, Pandu, etc. You have challenged the source provided.
The law 87 of 1936 is directly referenced from the HRW-HELSINKI, denying ethnic identity, p.6. "The government changed place and personal names from Macedonian to Greek".
Peter Hill, Macedonians in Australia states: "Place and personal names were forcibly Hellenized and the native Macedonian dialects were banned even in personal use.".
- The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency, p.33; "all personal names were changed from the original slavic ones to greek ones."
- Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian, Peter Mackridge, Eleni Yannakakis p.66. " the practise of changing local Slav place-names in to Greek, which had begun in the early 1920's as a result of the settlement of refugees in western Greek Macedonia, was stepped up; and it seems that it was extended to the names and surnames of local inhabitants as well"
PMK1 (talk) 08:54, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know what bullshit the HRW-HELSINKI says, but this is the exact content of the law 87/1936 retrieved from the Greek legal basis NOMOS, using my codes:
" Αρθρο 1.
-1. Δια Β.Δ/τος προκαλουμένου υπό του υπουργού της Δικαισύνης, επιτρέπεται να συνιστάται ίδιον παρά εκάστω δικηγορικώ συλλόγω, εφ` όσον ήθελε ζητηθή τούτο υπό της γενικής συνελεύσεως αυτού, ταμείον προνοίας δικηγόρων, σκοπόν έχον την παροχήν βοηθημάτων η περιθάλψεως εις τα μέλη του συλλόγου και τας οικογενείας η συγγενείς αυτών, κατά τα εν τω καταστατικώ αυτού καθορισθησόμενα.
"Εξαιρετικώς δια τον δικηγορικόν σύλλογον Αθηνών δύναται να προκληθή το σχετικόν Β.Δ/μα άνευ αποφάσεως της γενικής συνελεύσεως, εφ` όσον ζητηθή δι` αποφάσεως του διοικητικού συμβουλίου λαμβανομένης δια πλειοψηφίας των 2/3 της ολομελείας αυτού".
*** Η εντός " "διατάξεις της παρ.1 προσετέθη υπό του άρθρ.22 Α.Ν.1752 (6.Δα.30) Πρβλ. και άρθρ.23 του αυτού Α.Νόμου.
"Σκοπός επίσης των ιδρυομένων Ταμείων Προνοίας είναι η παροχή ιατρικής και υγειονομικής περιθάλψεως εις τους συνταξιούχους εκ των μελών του οικείου Δικηγορικού Συλλόγου. Οι όροι και προϋποθέσεις της παροχής της περιθάλψεως ταύτης, ο κύκλος των δικαιουμένων ταύτης μελών των οικογενειών των, αι εισφοραί τούτων και πάσα αναγκαία διά παροχήν της περιθάλψεως λεπτομέρεια, θέλουσι καθορισθή δι` αποφάσεως του Διοικητικού Συμβουλίου του οικείου Ταμείου, εγκρινομένης δι` αποφάσεως του Υπουργού Δικαιοσύνης.
Δια της αυτής αποφάσεως δύναται να καθορισθή ότι αι εισφοραί παρακρατούνται εκ της υπό του Ταμείου Συντάξεων Νομικών καταβαλλομένης συντάξεως".
*** Η ανωτέρω εντός ""παράγραφος προσετέθη δια της παρ.1 άρθρ.20 Ν.Δ.3790/57.
2. Το καταστατικόν εκάστου τοιούτου ταμείου εκπονείται υπό της γενικής συνελεύσεως του οικείου δικηγορικού συλλόγου και κυρούται, δυνάμενον να τροποποιηθή, δια του ιδρυτικού του ως άνω ταμείου διατάγματος.
3. Δια του καταστατικού τούτου επιτρέπεται : α) Να ορίζωνται εισφοραί των μελών, υποχρεωτικαί, τακτικαί και έκτακτοι, καθοριζομένων των όρων και προϋποθέσεων καταβολής εκάστης. β) Να επιβληθώσι τέλη καταβλητέα υπό`των κατά τον Κώδικα περί δικηγόρων αρμοδίων και ικανών εις παράστασιν και εκπροσώπησιν των διαδίκων κατά την επιχείρησιν υπ` αυτών εκάστης επί μέρους διαδικαστικής πράξεως ενώπιον των δικαστηρίων η δικαστικών αρχών η ωρισμένων ενεργειών ενώπιον των διοικητικών αρχών και επιτροπών, ως και κατά την σύνταξιν εγγράφων, γνωμοδοτήσεων ή εξωδίκων κοινοποιήσεων.
γ) "Να καθορισθώσι τα καταβλητέα τω Ταμείω Προνοίας υπό εκάστου δικηγόρου ποσοστά της κατά τον Κώδικα περί Δικηγόρων εισπραττομένης παρά του δικηγόρου αμοιβής δια την ενώπιον των Δικαστηρίων η Διοικητικών Επιτροπών παράστασιν και συζήτησιν. Το ποσοστόν τούτο δεν δύναται να είναι ανώτερον του (10ο/ο).
*** Το εδαφ. γ` αντικατεστάθη ως άνω δια του άρθρ.2 Ν.753/1948.
***ΠΑΡΑΤΗΡΗΣΗ
Δια της παρ.3 του άρθρου 20 του Ν.Δ.3790/57 ωρίσθη ότι το
ποσοστόν του εδ. γ` επί της δικηγορικής αμοιβής, αποδοχών κλπ.
δύναται να ορισθή μέχρις 25%.
4. Δια του αυτού καταστατικού θέλουσι καθορισθή αι πειθαρχικαί ποιναί και τα πρόστιμα αι επιβαλλόμεναι κατά των αρνουμένων εδάφιον εισφοράς δικηγόρων, ανεξαρτήτως των υπό του Κώδικος προβλεπομένων ποινών, εν υποτροπή του παραβάτου καθισταμένου εκπτώτου από του δικαιώαμτος συμμετοχής εις τα εκ του ταμείου ωφελήματα.
5. Τα κατά τας περιπτώσεις β` και γ` της παρ.3 τέλη καταβάλλονται επί ποινή απαραδέκτου του σχετικού εγγράφου και της παραστάσεως του πληρεξουσίου και της παραστάσεως του πληρεξουσίου του διαδίκου, επί ουδενί δε λόγω επιτρέπεται να επιβαρύνωνται δια τοιούτων οι διάδικοι ιδιώται.
Βάσει του παρόντος Α.Ν. συνεστήθησαν δια Β.Δ/των τομεία προνοίας παρά τοις κάτωθι δικηγορικοίς συλλόγοις :
Αγρινίου (Β.Δ.16/26 Σεπτ.1949, Β.Δ.24/30 Νοεμ.1950).
Αρτης (Β.Δ.3/8 Δεκ.1937, Β.Δ.21/24 Νοεμ.1939).
Βερροίας (B.Δ.19/24 Οκτ.1938, Β.Δ.28 Οκτ./2 Νοεμ.1939).
Βόλου (Δ.1/3 Ιουλ.1941, Β.Δ.10 Οκτ./27 Δεκ.1945).
Γρεβενών (Β.Δ.3/7 Απρ.1941, Δ.17 Ιαν./19 Οκτ.1942).
Γυθείου (Β.Δ.31 Μαρτ./4 Απρ.1941).
Δράμας (Β.Δ.12/19 Απρ.1941).
Ηλείας (Β.Δ.30 Αυγ./6 Σεπτ.1937, Δ.17 Φεβρ./7 Απρ.1943).
Ηρακλείου (Β.Δ.1/30 Σεπτ.1950).
Θηβών (Β.Δ.14/19 Νοεμ.1940).
Ιωαννίνων (Β.Δ.30 Αυγ./6 Σεπτ.1937, Δ.26 Φεβρ./29 Μαρτ.1943).
Καβάλλας (Β.Δ.12/19 Απρ.1941).
Καλυβρύτων (Β.Δ.3/7 Απρ.1941, Β.Δ.23 Ιαν./23 Σεπτ.1952).
Καλαμών (Β.Δ.3/9 Απρ.1937, Δ.17 Ιουν./17 Σεπτ.1942, Δ.3/28 Ιουλ.1943, Β.Δ.29 Μαϊου/15 Ιουν.1945).
Καρδίτσης (Δ.16 Φεβρ./19 Απρ.1943).
Καστορίας (Β.Δ.19/21 Φεβρ.1941).
Κερκύρας (Β.Δ.19 Νοεμ./15 Δεκ.1945).
Κοζάνης (Β.Δ.11/14 Απρ.1941).
Κορίνθου (Β.Δ.11/16 Απρ.1941).
Λαμίας (Β.Δ.26 Σεπτ./1 Οκτ.1937, Δ.27 Ιαν./26 Μαρτ.1943).
Λαρίσης (Δ.21/24 Ιουν.1941, Δ.28 Ιαν. Δ.3/12 Σεπτ.1945).
Λεβαδείας (Β.Δ.5/10 Νοεμ.1937, Δ.30 Ιουν./7 Αυγ. 1942, Δ.27 Ιαν./26 Μαρτ.1943, Β.Δ.27 Νοεμ./8 Δεκ.1951).
Μεσολογγίου (Β.Δ.11/16 Απρ.1941, Δ.16 Φεβρ./20 Απρ.1943).
Μυτιλήνης (Β.Δ.12/19 Απρ.1941, Δ.16 Φεβρ./19 Απρ.1943).
Ναυπλίου (Β.Δ.19/25 Οκτ.1938, Β.Δ.12/17 Φεβρ.1940).
Παρνασσίδος (Δ.16 Φεβρ./19 Απρ.1943).
Πατρών (Β.Δ.12/16 Φεβρ.1940, Β.Δ.3/11 Σεπτ.1948, Β.Δ.24/30 Νοεμ.1950)."
And this is the sole article of the law. So, in order to get a bit professional here. If you provide the law you say, then ok. But until then, your arguments constitute OR, and are removed. According to my knowledge, Greece was the only country that did not adopt a law for the forcible change of surnames in the Balkans (something that Greek populations in other Balkan countries suffered). If I am wrong, I'll be happy to rebut me. About the oaths, I cannot comment for the time being; I admit I do not know the story of what happened, and I have to first check what sources say, before I speak.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- And please also provide the number of the Metaxas law that forbade the use of the native speech. What the X writer says does not matter to me, unless an official government text is provided to verify the X claims. We cannot mention laws and legislature we cannot provide (or mention inexisting laws as happened above with the surnames!)! Verify your sources, otherwise we have a problem with the whole section. If you argue that there was an official policy of the Greek government, please tell me how and when was the native language forbidden? Which legal texts provide for the prohibition and the fines you say? If you cannot mention any law or legal text (royal decree? ministerial decision?), do we then have to do with an unofficial practice?--Yannismarou (talk) 12:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- So, to sum up and, unless otherwise proved and unless further supported with legal texts or other similar material, using a language of PMK about the oaths, it is the opinion of the x or z writer and it is the opinion of the Helsinki Watch that the use of the Slavic languages was banned and fined, and it is not a fact beyond doubt what these sources say without any verification (about the 1936 law I have nothing further to say; unless the proper law is provided, it is a shame for Wikipedia that such a claim supported by an non-existing law appeared in the main text). Therefore, the "Discriminations" section needs rewriting. And PMK did you ever care about cross-examining or proof-reading any of your sources?--Yannismarou (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- "Most Ethnic Macedonians were forced to learn Greek at night schools." Why is this presented as a discrimination? Is it a discrimination to learn the language of the country you live?! I was also forced to learn Greek?!!! What are you trying to say here? Please, give me an explanation.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- For Raso mk and others.Please read this: WP:CONSENSUS :..."silence means consent". I did not see anyone reacting here, so there is reason for the reversion of Yannismarou's night schools thing edit.If you have anything to say about this, oppose it or so, do it here and don't just revert reasonable edits.Oh, and "Macedonian Boy", a source claiming nonsense with no real reason is not a worthy one and nonsense sources don't protect something as meaningless as this. --Michael X the White (talk) 18:18, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Language Oaths
So as I can PMK1 actually don’t disagree about what really happened. Obviously this was not an official government policy, was not at all an extended action and happened only in 3 villages and was immediately stopped. (And with no clear evidence of how it happened and by whom) Helsinki Right Watch actually agrees and clearly says that the 2 villagers mention that happened only in 3 villages. By the way Hugh Poulton cites as source for his information Andonofski (who talks about "several" villages). Is this a source based on Slav-historiography or not? Is Andononofski neutral in any way? Bu the way read more carefully Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou article about how this information about the language oaths has circulated. “MRG-GR is drawing information from Greek newspapers, Malcolm from Poulton, Poulton from Andonofski, Whitman from Danforth, Danforth from Stoyan Pribichevitch, Pribichevitch from the American Consul General in Thessaloniki, and the last one most likely from the Greek newspaper Ellinikos Vorras (July 8, 1959, August 5, 1959, August 11, 1959).” So the facts are simple: “In 3 villages under unknown circumstances the villagers took oaths not to use the Slavic idiom. The practice was quickly discontinued when it became known in the authorities.” And that is all. Not an official policy, not an extended practice. As I can see this was already corrected therefore I want argue further. Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Metaxas dictatorship
- It is correct that the language you refer as “Macedonian” was known till 1946 as “Slavic”, “Macedonian Slavic” or “Bulgarian” (sometimes in Greek as “Slavomakedonika”). However I was unable to find any law from the Metaxas period that was targeted against the use of Slav-Macedonian. The only law that I could found at that time period was the "νόμος περί δραστηριοτήτων ενάντια στην ασφάλεια του Κράτους" (18/12/36). I can not know if this was used against any people who were considered as Bulgarians therefore danger, but certainly far more information should be found. YiannisMarou did an excelent job.
- Unfortunately the only sources seem to be again Helnsiki report with the testimony from a president of a community whose memory goes back to 1936 and can actually give a description. (A completely unverified claim.)
- Pulton uses a reference from a Slav-Macedonian source (hardly neutral),
- Neil Simpson reproduced the supposed law that banned the use of the Slavic language but there is no reference. (Probably again from a Slav-Macedonian source.)
- The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency (is this an official Slav-Macedonian publication??) obviously not of any use but lets see for a moment what it says. “were forbidden to speak their language in public and deportations to the islands became usual government practice”.What are the references for these claims ????
- By the way Whitman also suggests the deportation of (the incredible number!) of 5,000 Slav-speakers from Greek western Macedonia during Metaxas' dictatorship. Whitman’s source is Poulton, but Poulton reference is to the official Istorijata na Makedonskiot Narod (History of the Macedonian Nation) (Skopje, 1969, pp. 271-275). Again a reference from Slav-Macedonian historiography.
- However I can not deny that Metaxas regime lack any tolerance. It was a cruel dictatorship. All democratic citizens were targeted (and every liberal part of society).After all Metaxas oppressed the rebetiko songs, the buzuki instrument, communist party and democracy in general.
There wasn’t any need for special laws against the Slavic idiom. Just like any other idiom (or dialect or language) it had no chances to survive against the official state language “which secures economic and social advancement.” Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Are you trying to tell me that the language was not banned? What kind of sources are you looking for? If you are looking for a specific greek law than i can be of no help, i do not speak greek. "There wasn’t any need for special laws against the Slavic idiom", well aparently there was some reason. I have produced 7-8 sources backing these claims up, are you after more?. Maybe interveiws with people from the time and how they got beaten and fined for speaking macedonian. PMK1 (talk) 21:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it is an issue if all your sources just reproduce "Macedonian" sources. Can you provide any source not using references from "Macedonian" historiography or sources?--Yannismarou (talk) 07:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Well yes i have, but every source seems to be inadequete for you. These sources: Macedonia: The Politics of Identity and Difference, Jane Cowan, Ourselves and Others: The Development of a Greek Macedonian, Peter Mackridge, Neil Simpson, Macedonia It's Disputed History. The book: The Rising Sun In the Balkans: The Republic Of Macedonia, International Affairs Agency, is not an official book from the republic of macedonia. I do not understand what references are you looking for? An official law which stated that the language was banned?. I presented a law but i did not know it was innacurate. I relied on the "HELSINKI report" to be accurate.
If you are trying to say that the language was not banned, then i must disagree with you. I have presented a wide range of sources which you do not like. The same thing happened between me and laveol a while back on another controversial topic. You have also quoted "van Boeschoten" as saying: this peculiar ritual took place "on the initiative of local government officials.". If you are using the Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou source she makes no reference to these "rituals". You are claiming me of using biased Macedonian sources, wihlre all you have based your point on is the findings of Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou, which you have then presented as your own findings. PMK1 (talk) 02:34, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
KKE
- About the source : ""Η Τραγική αναμέτρηση, 1945-1949 – Ο μύθος και η αλήθεια. Ζαούσης Αλέξανδρος" (ISBN 9607213432). " I can understand that you simply used it because you found it. I am trying to find it in order to verify if there is actually such a passage. I strongly doubt it.
- As for the Neil Simpson’s “Macedonia Its Disputed History” I am unable to find any sources about this writer. We can hardly tell what his sources are.
- But as you also have clearly stated the passage from "KKE, Πέντε Χρόνια Αγώνες 1931-1936, Athens, 2nd ed., 1946 is different. There isn’t any mention to “ethnic-Macedonians” but a reference to Macedonians and Thracians. (Who were the Thracians?????) And of course within the concept of a ‘workers state”.
- Already the KKE in 1920es had followed the COMintern and announces the support of and independent Macedonian/Thrace with in the concept of a Balkan socialist federate state.
You can see that in the Rizospastis newspaper of 23/06/1929 [[5]] were KKE calls to the “ethnicities of Macedonia and Thrace”. (no ethnic Macedonians and certainly no ethnic Thracians!! And certainly many ethnicities.)
And even the decision of the 5th meeting of the Communist party of Greece there is a clear reference of Slav-Macedonians (in brackets near the term Macedonian) and about their self determination. Further more Nikos Zaxariadis (secretary general of KKE)urges for unity among the Greeks and the Slav-Macedonians
![[5]](http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rizospastis19290623dw6.jpg){kind=link}
"Στη Βόρεια Ελλάδα ο μακεδονικός (σλαβομακεδονικός) λαός τα 'δωσε όλα για τον αγώνα και πολεμά με μια ολοκλήρωση ηρωισμού και αυτοθυσίας που προκαλούν το θαυμασμό. Δεν πρέπει να υπάρχει καμιά αμφιβολία ότι σαν αποτέλεσμα της νίκης του ΔΣΕ και της λαϊκής επανάστασης, ο μακεδονικός λαός θα βρει την πλήρη εθνική αποκατάστασή του έτσι όπως το θέλει ο ίδιος, προσφέροντας σήμερα με το αίμα του για να την αποχτήσει.Οι Μακεδόνες κομμουνιστές στέκονται πάντα επικεφαλής στην πάλη του λαού των. Ταυτόχρονα, οι Μακεδόνες κομμουνιστές πρέπει να προσέξουν τις διασπαστικές και διαλυτικές ενέργειες που ξενοκίνητα σοβινιστικά και αντιδραστικά στοιχεία αναπτύσσουν, για να διασπάσουν την ενότητα ανάμεσα στο μακεδονικό(σλαβομακεδονικό) και τον ελληνικό λαό, διάσπαση που μόνο τον κοινό τους εχθρό, το μοναρχοφασισμό και τον αμερικανοαγγλικό ιμπεριαλισμό θα ωφελήσει.Παράλληλα, το ΚΚΕ πρέπει ριζικά να βγάλει απ' τη μέση όλα τα εμπόδια, να χτυπήσει όλες τις μεγαλοελλαδίτικες σοβινιστικές εκδηλώσεις και τα έργα, που προκαλούν δυσαρέσκεια και δυσφορία μέσα στο μακεδονικό λαό και έτσι βοηθούν τους διασπαστές στην προδοτική δράση τους, ενισχύουν το έργο της αντίδρασης. Ο σλαβομακεδονικός και ελληνικός λαός μόνον ενωμένοι μπορούν να νικήσουν. Διασπασμένοι μόνον ήττες μπορούν να πάθουν. Γι' αυτό η ενότητα στην πάλη των δύο λαών πρέπει να φυλάγεται σαν κόρη οφθαλμού και να ενισχύεται και να δυναμώνει σταθερά και καθημερινά". ("Επίσημα Κείμενα ΚΚΕ", τόμος 6ος, σελ. 337-338). (a raff translation : “In northern Greece the Macedonian people (Slav-Macedonians) are fighting bravely for the cause. There is no doubt that after the victory of the Democratic army of Greece and the final establishment of the revolution the Macedonian people will have their national restoration as they want it. …. At the same time the Macedonia communist should be careful of the separate movement of sovinists that try to break the unity of the Macedonian(Slav-Macedonian) and Greek people….Slav-Macedonian and Greek people can win only if they stay united.” ( “Official text of KKE volume 6 pages 337-338)
- However in the 7th congress of the KKE in 1950 the previous statement of Zahariadis was declared as “wrong”. Furthermore Partsalidis (a KKE official who would became secretary general of KKE) suggested that the 5th congress statement about autonomy of Slav-Macedonians was “a separate movement of Tito’s followers”. He also said that the term “autonomy” in Marxist ideology has the meaning of “educational autonomy”.
“Μ. Παρτσαλίδης ο οποίος αν και παραδέχτηκε την ύπαρξη των αιτιών που οδήγησαν στη θέση της 5ης Ολομέλειας, χαρακτήρισε αυτή τη θέση "αποτυχημένη προσπάθεια αντιπερισπασμού στη διαλυτική δουλειά των τιτικών". Επίσης υπεραμύνθηκε της θέσης για ισοτιμία, εμφανίζοντάς την ως τη μόνη σωστή. Τέλος, ζήτησε να μην χρησιμοποιείται από το Κόμμα η λέξη "αυτονομία" για τους Σλαβομακεδόνες, γιατί μπορούσε να παρεξηγηθεί και υποστήριξε ότι "αυτή η λέξη στη μαρξιστική ορολογία έχει την έννοια της εκπαιδευτικής αυτονομίας" ("7η Ολομέλεια της ΚΕ του ΚΚΕ - Εισηγήσεις - Λόγοι - Αποφάσεις", μόνο για εσωκομματική χρήση, σελ. 37-38). (7th congress of KKE –Speeches – Decisions, only for in party use page 37-38
- So as you can see KKE supported a Socialist Macedonia (for all its ethnicities) within a concept of a Balkan workers state. Later it sifted into autonomy of the Slav-macedonians only and then declared the previus decision as a mistake and explained that it meant only “educational autonmomy”.Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I will attempt a more complete translation of the Zachariadis' text so that users with no working knowledge of Greek can make use of it. "In Northern Greece the macedonian (slavomacedonian) people gave everything for the cause and keep fighting with complete heroism and self-sacrifice which causes admiration. There should be no doubt that as a result of the victory of the Democratic Army of Greece and the people's revolution, the macedonian people will find its full ethnical restoration in the way they [the "macedonian people"] themselves desire, today offering with their blood to obtain it. The Macedonian communists always stand in charge of their people's struggle. At the same time, the Macedonian communists should be wary of disjunctive and dissolving [divisive] activities cultivated by foreign-influenced chauvinistic and reactionary elements, in order to dissolve the unity between the macedonian (slavomacedonian) and the greek peoples. A split which would only benefit their common enemy, monarcho-fascism [Note:Greek communists typically identified royalists with fascists] and the americano-english imperialism [Note:The communists had declared both the British and the Americans to be occupying forces in control of the Athens government. In everyday use in Greece, then and now, the term "English" is used for every British citizen/resident, regardless of them actually being English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish]. In parallel, the Communist Party of Greece must radically act to eliminate all obstacles, strike against all "Great Greece" chauvinistic displays and activities, which cause discontent and uneasiness within the macedonian people and thus assist those orchestrating the rift in their traitorous activities, supporting the reactionary cause. The slavomacedonian and greek peoples can only achieve victory while acting together. Divided, they can only suffer through defeats. For this reason the unity in the struggle of the peoples should be guarded as an apple of the eye, supported and strengthened steadily and on a daily basis. " Dimadick (talk) 07:55, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
The report on Partsalidis views below can be translated as "Mitsos Partsalidis [Note:His first name was Demetrios, Mitsos is a commonly used nickname for it], though admitting the existance of the causes resulting in the position of the 5th assembly, characterised this position a "failed effort of diversion against the divisive effort of titoists [Supporters of Josip Broz Tito]". He also defended the position on equivalence, presenting it as the only right solution. Finishing, he asked that the term "autonomy" should not be used by the Party for Slavomacedonians, because it could be misinterpretated. He stated that "this word within marxist terminology has the meaning of educational autonomy". Dimadick (talk) 08:07, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think what people say about the KKE is that it recognised that there are [slav] Macedonian people in greece. That is why many people fought for the KKE. Because the Greeks finally recognised that there was a (slav) Macedonian minority in greek Macedonia. PMK1 (talk) 05:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Changing of personal names
It is not a fact that the Slavophone Greeks had Slavic names.
What is a known fact is that there was never a law that forced people to change their surnames.
The supposed Law No 87/1936 which is widely circulated is proven to be a completely irrelevant law. Never the less Slav-Macedonians keep citing it and people assume that it actually exist.
I want argue any more about that since obviously it was propaganda information and it has been deleted. I consider as valid the information from Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou that they were unable to find any such law.
As for place names, every ethnic state in the region change the previously multinational names. That happened in Greece, Turkey, Bulgaria, and Yugoslavia (especially in what is now FYROM). In Greece the names that were changed were Slavic, Turkish (in the villages of the exchanged populations) and many perfectly good demotic Greek names that were considered peasant or “bad sounded”. (Actually the law refers to “ξενικά και κακόηχα ονόματα”)
(again Yannismarou did a great job with the law.Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Bottomline : This article is certainly POV. It needs to be merged with the article about the Slavophone Greeks and we should try to keep only the parts of it that seems to be correct. (If there are any.)
Seleukosa (talk) 17:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Listen before the balkan wars these "slavophone greeks" could be hardly more than grkomani, after gree took control of macedonia then they would at least have some righ tot call themselves greek. Most slavic peoples have slavic surnames, in greece they were all changed to greek ones. simple. Of course you find the information from Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou that there is no law. Why wouldn't you?PMK1 (talk) 21:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- There is no law, because there is no law PMK1! And it does matter, because it was your sole concrete argument that there was an official policy, concerning the surnames, and the use of the native language. And if the surnames were changed this does not mean that they changed forcibly. Slavic surnames and local toponymes changed also in Peloponnese without the local populations to be obliged to do so. I'll give you a personal example: my mother's village was named "Lykouresi", which is Turkish or Slavic (but definitely not Greek!); one day the villagers decided to change the name. I personally disagree, but this was their free decision! Now, coming to owr case: the argument that "I do not speak Greek and I cannot find the laws" is ridiculous. I do not ask you to read the laws; I just ask you to search your "sources", and find there any number, any sample, anything from the Greek legislature, something that indicates that there was an official Greek policy of discrimination. Even statements from Greek officials or criticisms from international agencies' officials of the time are welcome. At last, find something concrete, and do not repeat what the X or Z writer says without providing any evidence (Oh, excuse me! You provide non-existing laws!).
- Your argument that in 1913 there were X people in Greec Macedonia with Slavic surnames, and in 1960 there were Z says nothing to me. Please, proof-read your sources and show me that this was the result of an official discriminatory policy. The case that mixed marriages took place, especially after 1923, and this is also a reason Slavic surnames reduced in number did ever occur in your mind? And, yes, as Seleykosa says, what are your sources that all these people had indeed Slavic surnames (if they ever existed in large numbers) the first place? I can also tell you that in 1800 there were X Slavic toponymes in Peloponnese, and in 2000 there are Z. This also proves nothing, because it was not the outcome of an official policy, but a voluntary decision of free-will people, maybe interesting for anthropology research but not for human rights violations' irresponsible declarations. When Greek populations came in Greece in 1923 many of them had Turkish surnames (the -oglou ones). Many changed them, but nobody forced them to.
- So, I want some specific information about:
- 1) How many Slavic surnames and toponymes existed in Greek Macedonia in the beginning of the 20th century, and in what percentage they were changed
- 2) Most importantly, I want some kind of indications that this kind of changes took place in a forcible way. Greek laws, presidential decrees, ministerial decisions, local authorities decisions, international agencies' criticisms. All this stuff is acceptable. Just give me the numbers or the names and I'll check the content for you.
- And something I told you previously: Are you going to explain me why is a discrimination the teaching of Greek in Greece?
- And, an advice if I may to: Please, do not make projections in Greece of what may have happened in other Balkan states. All cases are not the same. Respectfully,--Yannismarou (talk) 07:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- of course they are not the same, the greeks are obviously the most democratic and fair nation on earth. If you are looking at the slavic names changed to greek ones this page Former toponyms of Greek places has much information. PMK1 (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- I read the page, PMK1, and it is indeed very interesting, but the only thing that I did not manage to find is any kind of indication of an anti-"Aegean Macedonian" governmental policy. The change of toponyms-discriminatory policy connection made by you is at least far-fetched.
- And something else: I do not like to retort to ironies, but PMK1, I kindly ask you not to put into my mouth things I never said. Fairness and democracy were never an argument of mine. So, please, stick to what I actually wrote. I am the last to deny the oppressiveness of the Metaxas regime, but this oppressiveness targeted not the minorities, in particular, but a large part of the population in general. My opinion on the article is already known: I believe it should be incorporated into the Slavophone Greeks or merged under a new article, titled per Fut. My opinion on the section in question as long as the article exists is also clear: Accuse the Greeks of what they actually did; not on what you would like them to have done.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:24, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
Oaths
And something about the oaths: PMK1, since you accept that your sources mention that the oaths were taken only in 3 villages at a limited level, why didn't you make that clear in the main text, and instead, you used the inaccurate term "certain villages", despite the fact that you knew the exact number? With the terms and the wording you used, you gave the Wikipedia's reader the wrong impression that this was a widespread phenomenon.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:29, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Does it really matter. I could have written in some villages, or in a few villages, or in 3 villages it is not really that confusing. I am not claiming in most villages or in all villages, or in the majority of villages or even in many villages. PMK1 (talk) 02:43, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- It does matter, but I regard this issue as resolved, so let's just go on.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Heading
- Per the example set in the Human rights of Kurdish people in Turkey articles (where there are obviously more concrete evidence of human rights' violations!) I change the POV heading of the current section to "Claims of persecution and discrimination").--Yannismarou (talk) 08:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- As in the kurdish episode the "claims of persecution" is turkish POV. The kurds are clearly persecuted and have been in the past. "Claims of Persecution" is greek POV, when clearly measures have been implemented against the Aegean Macedonians. Think of better wording, as i have provided an example. PMK1 (talk) 12:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- A Turkish POV introduced by a Greek, because I rewrote the section in the aforementioned article, and I entered the heading?! Very interesting, PMK1!!! I think Garnet, and the other Turkish editors would be very proud of me! Anyway, the heading Tassos proposed is IMO fine!--Yannismarou (talk) 18:13, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
World War II and Civil War
- "However this situation was completely reversed during World War Two and the Greek Civil War when the Slavic Macedonian culture and language were allowed to flourish."
I think we should be very very careful with such claims, and avoid to articulate them irresponsibly. What do you actually say here? That the Nazi occupation forces (the ones ruling Greece during World War II), while torturing the Greek populations, allowed the "Slav-Macedonians" to flourish?! Do you realize what are you implying here?! Or maybe that the ELAS and the DSE forces again allowed the "Macedonian" culture to flourish? But when this happened (if it happened indeed), another part of the population, not ideologically in accord with the members of the DSE (whether they were Greek or Slavic speaking) suffered. And this of course was the case vice versa in the places controlled by right-wings. So, are we taking sides in a civil war saying that the good DSE forces helped the "Macedonians", and the bad "right-wings" persecuted them, after we have implied that the Nazi occupation forces protected them, while they were persecuting Greek resistance at the same time? Something is wrong here!--Yannismarou (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- if you took the sentence to imply that the nazis protected macedonians, that can be reworded. They did not help the Macedonians. But during the Greek Civil War most of the Macedonians had aligned themselves with the KKE. They allowed Macedonian language schools, over 10,000 students went to these, macedonian theatres, macedonian books, Macedonian plays etc. The culture did flourish until the KKE lost the civil war.
This sentence : *"However this situation was completely reversed during the Greek Civil War when the Slavic Macedonian culture and language were allowed to flourish." could be more appropriate. PMK1 (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yes i would have liked them to be fair. If you are talking in relation to the Learnign greek at night schools. Many macedonians were forced to learn greek at night schools, even the grandmothers who were in their 70s. but my sources are not good enough, because apparently there was no laws, at least that is what Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou say. There are many sources which back up the claims that i have made. PMK1 (talk) 02:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- PMK1, what does this mean "he was forced to ..."? When you are in Greece you are supposed to learn Greek. In the same way, when you live in fYROM you are supposed to know Slav-Macedonian. That is what I tell you. I was also forced to learn Greek! The opposite would be a clear discrimination: Not to allow the minorities to learn the language of the homeland so as to keep them fragmented and not incorporated into the society. At least, that is how I see things, but again me prespective maybe flawed.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with you in greece you learn greek, etc. But forcing grandmothers who are in their 70s to learn Greek in night schools is discrimination. This is what people call discrimination, but in reference to children learning greek at primary school, that is unmentioned. Also in regards to education the non-education in the Macedonian language is also considered discriminatory. Minority Language rights should be respected. PMK1 (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- Again, let's say it did happened, and let's say that it is a discrimination, what is the purpose served by doing something like that?! I must say I have heard a long series of discrimination cases during my life, but this is the first time I read something like that. And how can you force a grandmother in her 70s to learn Greek? Dragginf her?! I just know the cases of Cappadocian grandmothers who came in 1923 from Turkey, and they never learned the Greek language, speaking till their death Turkish; which was never a problem for the Greek state.
- And your last argument that the non-teaching in public schools of the Slav-Macedonian language in Greek constitutes a discrimination legally does not stand. Is in fYROM every linguistic minority (except for the Albanians) taught its language in public schools?--Yannismarou (talk) 07:45, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- None ever forced grandmothers to attend night schools (sic!!!).Facts are different. Let’s use common sense.
- In the 1930 less than 10% of the Greek population regularly attended school. Most of the population could barely read and write. (Quite common in entire Europe in the same period.).The elderly and especially the rural population of Greece were almost illiterate.
- So you want us to believe that the Greek state forced a small linguistic minority to attend schools and within a few years it manages to transform an illiterate population -including the elderly (!!) - in to pure Greek speakers. That’s why the slavophone grandmothers learn how to speak Greek!! And since Kathareuousa was the official Greek of the period the few Slavophone grandmothers actually speak Katahreusousa Greek (!). That’s what they learned after all.
- Seleukosa (talk) 08:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
- None ever forced grandmothers to attend night schools (sic!!!).Facts are different. Let’s use common sense.
- I agree with you in greece you learn greek, etc. But forcing grandmothers who are in their 70s to learn Greek in night schools is discrimination. This is what people call discrimination, but in reference to children learning greek at primary school, that is unmentioned. Also in regards to education the non-education in the Macedonian language is also considered discriminatory. Minority Language rights should be respected. PMK1 (talk) 04:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- PMK1, what does this mean "he was forced to ..."? When you are in Greece you are supposed to learn Greek. In the same way, when you live in fYROM you are supposed to know Slav-Macedonian. That is what I tell you. I was also forced to learn Greek! The opposite would be a clear discrimination: Not to allow the minorities to learn the language of the homeland so as to keep them fragmented and not incorporated into the society. At least, that is how I see things, but again me prespective maybe flawed.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yes i would have liked them to be fair. If you are talking in relation to the Learnign greek at night schools. Many macedonians were forced to learn greek at night schools, even the grandmothers who were in their 70s. but my sources are not good enough, because apparently there was no laws, at least that is what Vlasidis/Karakostanoglou say. There are many sources which back up the claims that i have made. PMK1 (talk) 02:38, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
- No, they attended night school to learn the language, not to read or write. It was common practise and many people from children, to adults to grandmothers were sent to night schools. @ Yannismarou, i do believe that most of the minorities have their mother language taught to some degree at public schools. I am aware that the teaching of Albanian, Turkish, Romany, Aromanian, Serbo-Croatian (for Serbs/Bosniaks) occur where there are minority language students. These ethnic groups (along with Macedonians) constitute 99% of all the ethnic groups in the Republic. I am not bieng pro-Macedonian or anything, but generally minority rights are very good. You also have misinterpreted me, the non teaching of the mother language (macedonian) can be considered discriminatory. Especially when the minority rights in europe are supposed to be the best in the world. PMK1 (talk) 07:05, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
- What nonsense, what I chose to believe. What are you talking about the minority rights or the night schooling? Why dont you read this interveiw of a man who was actually around when these things supposedly happened. PMK1 (talk) 22:26, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting interview. However one comment:"If you were heard speaking Macedonian by the police or Korofilatsi as they called them in Macedonian, you were taken and punished." Hardly a Macedonian term. That would be the Greek Gendarmerie, "Elliniki Chorofylaki". In mainstream Greek an individual member was a "Chorofylakas", plural "Chorofylakes". However in the village dialects the plural was often rendered "Chorofylakoi" (χωροφυλάκοι, See: Example in an old song), "Chorofylatsoi" (χωροφυλάτσοι,See:A Worker's Song"), etc. Dimadick (talk) 07:45, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe it is this form of Macedonian. To try an deny there are no greek influences would be ridiculous. The Aegean Macedonian dialects have greek influences, "Korofilatsi". Especially when refering to a government associated body, no? PMK1 (talk) 11:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Civil War aftermath
- "Many of the people who fled during the Greek Civil War were stripped of their Greek Citizenship and Property."
- I think this was the case not only for the Greek Slavophones who fled from Greece, but all the exiled communists lost their citizenship, no matter if they belonged to a minority or not. And this is one of the greatest dramas and wounds of the modern Greek state; wounds not yet fully healed.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- yes i agree with you greeks, macedonians, vlachs basically every one who fought for communism lost citizenship. There is no reason why this shouldnt be written. The drama is that "greeks by genus" were alowed to return in 1982. Those who were not greeks by genus (Aegean Macedonians), did not have their citizenship returned nor their property. PMK1 (talk) 04:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think this was the case not only for the Greek Slavophones who fled from Greece, but all the exiled communists lost their citizenship, no matter if they belonged to a minority or not. And this is one of the greatest dramas and wounds of the modern Greek state; wounds not yet fully healed.--Yannismarou (talk) 19:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
List of prominent "Aegean Macedonians"
I think we should be more careful, when we form such lists. There is no reason to include people there without being sure about how they self-identify themselves, or when it is obvious that they do not self-identify themselves in the way we want them to. In Daicos' article I read the provided link, and he states that he is proud to be Greek!
With Novakis, we have no verifiable source, saying he self-identifies himself as ethnic Macedonian. And as far as a communist leader (Tsapas I think) is concerned, I go to the relevant article, and I see no reference provided. I also have doubts about Steve Stavro,
For the time being, I remove Daios and Novakis, and I kindly request whoever adds names to this list to be more careful. I'm sure there are enough prominent "Aegean Macedonians| around the world. No reason to add persons who do not self-identify themselves as such.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- As I see Misirkov's national identity is also disputed. Not enough ground to include him in this list.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
- And who's on earth is Steve Delianis?! If he is notable, why do I find nothing in google? Removed.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:35, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Did "agean macedonians" exist before skopje?
Don t run and revert me or erase this section. It s been a long time since I abandonned trying to reason nationalists (on all sides of the borders). And it s been a long time since I last considered expressing a POV on wiki about this subject. But I ve been reading a book lately, it s called: "Twice a stranger" by Bruce Clark who is a journalist (for the daily telegraph) specialised in near east and the southern balkans.He is from Northern Ireland, so "neutral" as one can be.
Greek and bulgarian "nationalists" or "patriots" (call them what you wish) whould often tease the "slavs from macedonia" nationalists (...not the albanians,that is) that such thing as "agean macedonians" did not exist and that if anything, they were "bulgarians". Moreover the seemed to be able to cite-source their POV (with historians,ethnographs , political analysts or simple travellers). And they took a lot of comfort in reminding that ottoman censuses mentioned greeks,jews and bulgarians..not macedonians. Also, they took even more comfort in reminding that "agean macedonians" were never "sourced" anywhere.
Bruce Clark knows more about southern balkans than all wikipedias altogether. Moreover, his interest is focused on the peoples themselves and their lifes and cultures and languages/dialects rather than on the "political" or "historic" issues.
I couldn t help come and dicuss the issue with you, here, after reading his book where he mentions BULGARIANS, GREEKS, JEWS and TURKS in the region of greek macedonia.
So my question is as follows: are "agean macedonians" the same thing as Bruce s clark s Bulgarians from greek macedonia? If "agean macedonians" really exist/existed why were they never mentioned in non-skopje sources and especially by people like bruce clark who FOCUSED on the peoples and their cultures? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.165.200.231 (talk) 17:54, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the fact is that this is valid not only for Greek (Aegean), but for Vardarska Macedonia as well. All sources, including Ottoman censuses, speak about Greeks and Bulgarians only. --Laveol T 18:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
I was expecting more answers...
Moreover,when i read that IMRO manifesto stated that the goal was to unite all ethnicities of macedonia region in one rebel movement "without being interpreted as that of bulgaria", or that we could "subsequently unite with bulgaria"
, even that early appearance of the word "macedonia" was clearly not intended to designate a new ethnicity (the suposed macedonian one).Not to mention the language was bulgarian.
I am not saying the citizens of fyrom don t have the right to self determination, i m just saying that, obviously, aegean macedonians is a term that shouldnt be attributed to more than thos 7000 lads, that voted for rainow party.
Thessaloniki is a big metropolis with a well recorded history.no macedonian ethnicities have ever been recorded there.let s not make up stories shall we. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.165.200.231 (talk) 22:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Please do not modify the following forum-like discussion
Why is this article still here?
I'm calling for this article to be deleted or at the very minimum merged with Slavophone Greeks as soon as possible. This is stalling for quite some time for no reason.-- Avg 17:15, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Why has it not happened yet?. By the way, a recent short documentary (in Zoungla) reveals Gruevski's grandfather as a Greek of Macedonia and nothing else, see [6] and decide. Politis (talk) 17:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- LOL, that's hilarious if it's true but it also goes to show how fluid ethnicity can be in an area like Macedonia, no? 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:41, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- The merge did not take place, because the discussion in Slavophone Greeks seems to have stalled. Therefore, I think the talk page of the aforementioned article is the best place to revive this discussion. About Gruevski: What is the difference, my friend Politis, if his father is Greek or "Macedonian"? Yves Leterme's father was a Walloon, but Walloons regard him as their worse pro-Flanders enemie! And who had told me that Sesseli has Croatian blood? Therefore, if Zoungla says that his father was Greek is unimportant. What matters is how his father self-identified himsel (something I suggest we'll never learn) and how Gruevski presents him. If these things have also any importance at all.--Yannismarou (talk) 08:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
I agree with both of you. By the way 3rdAlcove, in Skopje they make a local pizza called 'Macedonian Pizza', as for its ingredients... they change 'according to what is available'. No kidding! Politis (talk) 14:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- They have Macedonian Pizza at various pizza places in Melbourne. It's actually hotter than the Mexicana. BalkanFever 14:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- I guess you need a nice Macedonian salad with that.-- Avg 18:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and that (in the ethnic sense) was one of the reasons Politis' joke was funny. 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, good humor is on the verge of extinction in Wikipedia, and, when it occurs, as here with Politis, it should be recognized. We don't have always to be serious, "scientific" and ready to attack each other. "Relaxing" is not a crime. Some days ago we're exchanging Greek and Irish music songs with Ceoil. Should we be banned?! So, let's enjoy our Macedonian pizza with the ingredients each one wants to add (is feta allowed?), and continue our serious discussions here at the same time.
- One thing I wanted to point out is that it makes no sense not to have the official Greek position in this article, which denies the existence of a "Macedonian minoriy" in Greece. Whether one agrees or not with this stance, it should be mentioned. And the exchange of letters between Karamanlis and Gruevski should also be exposed here. It is a very important development related to the article.--Yannismarou (talk) 10:48, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Feta, yes. But please, no mushrooms. The exchange of letters should definitely be noted, but can we please only give the information needed, rather than mindlessly blockquoting everything? BalkanFever 11:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- If anything, the letters clearly show that this issue is nurtured only from one side. Having on Wikipedia an article on a minority that one side denies its very existence (as a so-called "Macedonian" minority), clearly adopts the other side's bias. Hence, deletion.-- Avg 11:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- No, it just shows how idiotic the other side is. Telling Gruevski that Aegean Macedonians don't exist is like telling Karamanlis that the aforementioned pizza doesn't exist - he knows you're lying. BalkanFever 11:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I know it's difficult for you to grasp civility but could you refrain from calling Greeks idiotic please? Using our food metaphores (and it's lunch time here), Greece is saying that the Republic is labelling apples as oranges, while they have always been apples. They're not saying that apples don't exist.-- Avg 12:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- ok, humor is over, and job as usual here! Nice! If I have time, I'll add a section today about the Greek position, and the main points of the two prime ministers' letters. I agree we do not need blockquotes. And I do agree with Avg that the article should be merged, but for as long as it exists it should be updated and related with what is actually going on in our small corner of Europe.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I know it's difficult for you to grasp civility but could you refrain from calling Greeks idiotic please? Using our food metaphores (and it's lunch time here), Greece is saying that the Republic is labelling apples as oranges, while they have always been apples. They're not saying that apples don't exist.-- Avg 12:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- No, it just shows how idiotic the other side is. Telling Gruevski that Aegean Macedonians don't exist is like telling Karamanlis that the aforementioned pizza doesn't exist - he knows you're lying. BalkanFever 11:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and that (in the ethnic sense) was one of the reasons Politis' joke was funny. 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:06, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- I guess you need a nice Macedonian salad with that.-- Avg 18:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
Karamanlis would agree that the Macedonian pizza and the Macedonian ethnicity were created after WWII. Politis (talk) 14:23, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Karamanlis would swallow the pizza whole and not ask any questions. BalkanFever 14:25, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Of course, as a proud Macedonian Karamanlis is a good Greek who likes good food and, like his 2 million fellow Macedonians cannot consider himself a minority in his Macedonian homeland.
- He's a one man majority. BalkanFever 14:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- After all it was a wise decision not to write anything yet. Let's have the "full collection" of letters first!--Yannismarou (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there will be any other letter. Karamanlis has already said this was his only one and Gruevski has already felt the pressure from other EU leaders (esp. Germany) to stop his nationalist tactics.-- Avg 20:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yea, he felt such a strong pressure that he decided to send a letter to the European Commission as well.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well, using BalkanFever's terminology (and since he hasn't bothered to offer an apology), it just shows how idiotic the other side is.-- Avg 16:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yea, he felt such a strong pressure that he decided to send a letter to the European Commission as well.--Yannismarou (talk) 07:18, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there will be any other letter. Karamanlis has already said this was his only one and Gruevski has already felt the pressure from other EU leaders (esp. Germany) to stop his nationalist tactics.-- Avg 20:57, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- After all it was a wise decision not to write anything yet. Let's have the "full collection" of letters first!--Yannismarou (talk) 17:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Oh, shut up. Go to a forum or something. --iNkubusse? 01:57, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- WP:PA and WP:Incivility. You just violated both of them.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- No, I didn't. What's wrong with you? You would do just about anything to suppress users of a certain nationality, wouldn't you? Ok, here's an explanation. That meant: 'Dear Wikipedians, please stop your unpleasant conversation, as it is in no way related to the subject and it may hurt certain Wikipedians' feelings.' Yes, I was addressing to every contributor to this section of the talk page, not to you alone. If anyone's breaking any rules here, it is you, AVG, 3rdAlcove, and Politis, by saying that we have no nationality, or that our nationality is fluid, by comparing it to a pizza that changes its ingredients 'according to what is available', and also the Macedonian salad, which probably meant that we are a bunch of various misfortunate ethnicities here. It doesn't mean that if you're the majority in this section, you can make fun of whatever you're frustrated from. I am sorry for telling you to stop it without getting involved in the "discussion"!
- By the way, 1) Wikipedia is not censored; 2) That would not qualify as a Personal attack or Incivility. And I'm sure you weren't offended by the phrase 'shut up'. But if you want to make a fool of yourself, ok, next time I'll just say 'please stop the conversation'. Or maybe I should appeal to some admin? --iNkubusse? 16:25, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
iNkubusse, you stated that Politis "If anyone's breaking any rules here, it is [...] Politis, by saying that we have no nationality, or that our nationality is fluid". Can you find the place where i say that or withdraw your comment. Politis (talk) 16:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
- 'Macedonian Pizza'. Thanks a lot for that. I thought you were a serious contributor, but that's just too immature. That sounded like a youtube comment. And please don't say it wasn't supposed to mean what it meant. --iNkubusse? 19:18, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
And that's the usual delaying tactics by changing the subject (a la Gruevski) and this joke of an article is still here.-- Avg 01:54, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- You're right, you just hacked into my files and my strategy is no longer efficient. Damn, what am I gonna do now? No, wait. I wasn't even involved in any disputes! Hmm...
- You said ...by changing the subject. Dear fellow Wikipedian, the subject was 'the nothingness of the Fyromians'! Of course I was trying to change the subject. That's why I said 'shut up' in the first place. And why do you have to involve Gruevski and politics in this discussion?
- Anyway, please allow me to join your discussion. Let's start by you explaining why you refer to it as a joke of an article. --iNkubusse?
- I'd be glad to, although I have done this before in the AfD. This article is blatantly pushing POV and should be deleted asap. First there are no "Aegean Macedonians" because this presupposes that: there is an "Aegean" Macedonia (irredentist term, the correct term is Greek Macedonia) that all its inhabitants are part of a Slavic nationality (wrong and irredentist again), that this is a generally accepted term (wrong), that even the Slavic-speaking inhabitants of Greek Macedonia self-identify as Slavomacedonians (wrong). To avoid all these obvious realities, the article claims that these people are abused, hellenised, their identity suppressed etc etc which are of course a joke. Hope I made my point a bit clearer-- Avg 13:16, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm happy we agree. Just for the record, this is not Vreme or A1 who have their audience conditioned to believe whatever they are fed, this is Wikipedia with people who actually are searching for hard facts.-- Avg 13:41, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- We agree that I made my point clear. However unlike you, I have a sense of humour.-- Avg 13:58, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- You're right in one thing, my grandfather did fight in the Greek Struggle for Macedonia and I'm extremely proud of it.-- Avg 14:42, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
You completely misinterpreted my comments, actually (probably the other users' as well; Politis seems to agree). Apologies if you were offended, anyhow. 3rdAlcove (talk) 05:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- I always take the apologies and I tend to assume good faith. I wouldn't want to discuss it any further, let this be final: the 'shut up' was intended to tell you that the kind of conversation you guys were having (all of you) was not appropriate for this talk page. Off-topic conversations are not forbidden, but we should avoid chit-chatting on highly disputed articles like this one. --iNkubusse? 12:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- You were also supposed to give some apologies for calling other users to "shut up", and, whatever arguments you may present, this is incivility in its very sense. If you think that I am not a serious user for joking about "Macedonian pizza", then you're completely right: I reject this kind of "seriousness", at least in the way you mean it and you incarnated it in your interventions here. Now, whether I am really serious (and not "serious") or not, my 3-years wikirecords speak for themselves, and I do not need any kind of recognition by you. I do promise, however, from now on that in any talk page encounter with you I'll avoid such kind of "humoristic" discussions, because our senses of humor do not match (or most probably one of us has no sense of humor). But, I do not intend to abolish my right being "humoristic" or even "sarcastic" in Wikipedia, whether you like it or not. If you noticed, by the way, I was also annoyed by the dialogue Avg and Balkan Fever had, but I did not ask from any of them to shut up. This was your way to teach us what is Wikipedia about and what not. And I do hope that Wikipedia will never become what you want it.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:15, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Support. These articles refer to the same group of people. The Aegian Sea has nothing to do with the inland slavic people. Do merge if not delete, but do not use this ambiguous and offensive term. --Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:11, 26 July 2008 (UTC)to the same group of people.
Propaganda & Partiality --Yannismarou (talk) 17:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I would like to express my dissapointment concerning the system on which the english wikipedia's function seems to be based on. Countless political points with no or irrelevant references are kept, as well as articles that based on the conventionts the wikipedia community has made itself should not exist.
And in order to prove my point,
1) As clearly stated at MOSMAC "In articles dealing with the predominant ethnic group of the Republic of Macedonia Use "Macedonians" (only if the meaning is unquestionably clear) or "ethnic Macedonians", " In articles where there is a need to distinguish the aforementioned ethnic group from the other ethnic groups inhabiting Macedonia Use "Macedonian Slavs" or "Slavic Macedonians" to distinguish them from the other ethnic groups in the region" The latter has been frequently been violated at articles or section concerning these "Macedonian Slavs", a term which is insistently avoided and replaced with "Macedonian" contrary to the convention made. 2) At the same page, the wikipedia community made another convention stating:
"Deprecated names (province) The following name is deprecated:
The name Aegean Macedonia should be avoided for general use, except in articles describing the irredentist concept. Note that Aegean Macedonia can be considered offensive for some Greeks, but the Greek government has not raised issue." Nevertheless, an article "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Macedonians Aegean Macedonians", not to mention the propagandistic statements with no references, saying horrible things about the greek nation's behaviour towards these group of people. And although the page had been nominated for deletion, it still exists. And on top of that, I am informed I donnot have the right to re-nominate this monstrosity so soon for debate.
3) I also disagree with the concept of some conventions themselves, such as the right for this nation to use the term Macedonians to identify themselves, but for the greek people to try to avoid the use of plain Macedonians to identify themselves, but need to add Greek next to Macedonia. Talking about neutrality..
4) The concept of the conventions indicates that for internal reasons, each side may use the terms it recognizes, as well the internationally accepted terms used when refferring to the UN and the organizations, in respect to their onomatology. And although at FYROM related articles, the internally accepted terms are used freely, the Greece related topics are invaded with propagandistic maps of uncertain quality, using terms as Aegean Macedonians, Rep. of Macedonia, as well as balling up Arvanites and their language with the Albanian immigrants. All these points confuse the reader, who cannot distinguish what macedonia really means. It's like a ball of confusion. Not to mention the maps indicating pieces of modern greece as slavomacedonian terriroties. And if someone dares to express his/her troubling about the, as stated by the wikipedia itself, offensive terms "Aegean" or whatever they may come up with, the response is of Points of Discussion such unutterable level: "This is the section where major points of the Article should be discussed. Please put your objections here so that they can be adressed.PMK1 (talk) 11:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)-Point 1- Article name Aegean Macedonians or Ethnic Macedonians in Greece. I believe some users have expressed concern that Aegean Macedonians may be ambiguous. That is a legitimate point and should be discussed. NB: crap about being offended or about irredentism is not worth taking note of. BalkanFever 11:34, 12 May 2008 (UTC)" - "Please watch your language. Are you not civilized?--Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:22, 26 July 2008 (UTC)" - "Your comments- Please note that comments like this are not tolerated. If you do it again, you may very well be blocked. BalkanFever 02:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)"
I hope the wikipedia community can give some conviencing response to my worries and prove me wrong.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 04:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I just want to say to you that you should as well consider what may be offensive for others, not just to you. --iNkubusse? 13:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
It's not that I'm not sensitive towards people's sensitivities. What I'm worried about is the wikipedia's conventions being fragrantly partialy applied. A third party should take position on my worries. --Dimorsitanos (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
This.Article.Should.Be.Deleted. Delete this junk. How clearer do you want this? -- Avg 14:41, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's junk to you only because you don't like the sound of other ethnicities in your country. That's nationalistic. Nationalism is junk, not this very well sourced encyclopedic article. The contents of an encyclopedia not necessarily reflect people's opinions. --iNkubusse? 15:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- You don't have a clue about how's a "well-source encyclopedic article", do you?--Yannismarou (talk) 18:04, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- To Dimorsitanos: "Are you not civilized?" Yeap, such comments are indeed offensive.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:07, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Allow me to inform you that a remark of crap is rather more offensive than a question of civility as stated by Admins. Please read this --Dimorsitanos (talk) 18:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- "When you find yourself in any kind of disagreement on Wikipedia, don't make comments about other editors at all. Comment only on article content or the topic at hand, along with any sources." These are really wise words.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Indeed. So, when will this in question of civility article content and topic at hand will be removed? --Dimorsitanos (talk) 18:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Do you want a honest answer? Never! Because there will be never consensus. Didn't you notice that the article had been already proposed for deletion, and that FutPer had proposed the merge of this article into Slavophone Greeks, but the relevant discussion stalled and Fut did not insist on his proposal till the end?
- Oh and yea, crap, is also not nice, but if somebody else chooses the wrong path in Wikipedia, you don't have to follow him in his wrongdoing. After all, it is not "classy" acting like that.--Yannismarou (talk) 18:43, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes I noticed that. But I didn't get the chance to vote and am willing to restore the procedure. --Dimorsitanos (talk) 18:58, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- I've just been informed that I preserve the right to re-nominate an aticle for deletion after 4 or more months. Therefore, I will do so after 2 or 3 months from now, unless it is merged by the time I go on to do so.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 15:36, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
My purpose was obviously not to insult, but to bring this discussion to order. And I am glad I did.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Until now, 2 articles reffering to the same (ambiguous) encyclopedic topic exist. That's confusing for the readers.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
- Just for the record: I didn't propose a merge into Slavophone Greeks, I proposed a merge with Slavophone Greeks under a third, neutral title. I think there was actually consensus for such a merger, only unfortunately such merges don't execute themselves, they need somebody to actually do them. (And I'm currently only semi-available.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:35, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Stand corrected. This is what I actually meant, but I did not express myself properly.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- If there is actually a consensus for such a merge, I am willing to help, devoting my time, and accepting to be continuously under scrutiny and strict control by all the editors here. Or this merge could take place in a collaborative way, so that both Greek and Slav-Macedonian editors implement it together.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Stand corrected. This is what I actually meant, but I did not express myself properly.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's a suggestion: why don't we change the opening part to something like 'Aegean Macedonians is a term used by Ethnic Macedonians.....'. That way, the article wouldn't be dubious and nobody will be confused. By the way, Yannismarou, Slav-Macedonian is very offensive. Use 'ethnic Macedonian editors' if you can't say Macedonian, but please don't include Slav, I don't consider myself Slavic. --iNkubusse? 15:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- That's a good proposal, but still there are 2 articles reffering to the same topic.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 15:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Here's a suggestion: why don't we change the opening part to something like 'Aegean Macedonians is a term used by Ethnic Macedonians.....'. That way, the article wouldn't be dubious and nobody will be confused. By the way, Yannismarou, Slav-Macedonian is very offensive. Use 'ethnic Macedonian editors' if you can't say Macedonian, but please don't include Slav, I don't consider myself Slavic. --iNkubusse? 15:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- This does not help at all. Read the relevant discussion in the Slavophone Greeks articles. Overlaps are more than obvious. For instance "human rights issues" of this article has not only to do with those Slavophones self-identifying themselves as "Aegean Macedonians" but with the "Slavophones of Greece" in general, and the relevant sources hardly make any such distinctions. And this is just an example.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- "The Macedonians (Macedonian: Македонци; transliterated: Makedonci) – also referred to as Macedonian Slavs". Therefore per Wikipedia "Macedonia Slavs" is totally acceptable. But if you don't like the term, respecting your right of self-determination, I'll not refer it to you personally, but I'm entitled to use it in general to designate the whole nation, and I'll do that.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:12, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry but for he n-th time someone has to quote Kiro Gligorov "We are Slavs who came to the region on the 5th and 6th century". If your president says it, it is not offensive. Now regarding your suggestion. You correctly capture the issue (this is not an internationally accepted term, it is used only in your country and possibly in some neighbouring Slavic countries), but you must understand that Greeks could then ask for an article named "Skopjans" because this is how Greece calls the ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece (and it is not offensive as this is the prevailing name in Greece, if you consider it offensive let me remind you WE consider Aegeans offensive). So you call them Aegeans, we call them Skopjans. They originate from Greece. Which one prevails? I'd say none, because the only neutral term is something like Ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece (not IN Greece because this opens again a can of worms)-- Avg 17:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- Look Yannismarou, if you use Slavomacedonians to refer to my people, I will be offended! Don't call my people by that term, it is very offensive to everyone and it's used against our will. It's the same as using Skopjans. If you continue to use that term, have in mind that you are offending many Wikipedians here. That's all.
- Avg, this one's for you. Can you say to Angela Merkel that her president/prime minister said that the Germans belong to a superior race and that they should kill every Jew on the planet? I mean, that shouldn't be offensive, her president said that, right? If you still don't see my point, Kiro Gligorov was NOT my goddamn president! Kiro Gligorov is a commie and he has nothing to do with our nationality. As for the important stuff, I think that a variant of 'Ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece' would be satisfactory to everyone, but that's only my opinion. --iNkubusse? 23:18, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's a good proposal, what I'm against is that ambiguous aegean term.--Dimorsitanos (talk) 04:29, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, but hey, I hope you agree we should include the fact that in some Slavic countries the term Aegean Macedonians is used to refer to those. In brackets or something like that, but we have to mention that. --iNkubusse? 12:17, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, ofcourse, If they do use the term it should be mentioned. But as a reader I would also like to know the rationale on which they call them by that. --Dimorsitanos (talk) 17:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- You mean they originate from modern "Macedonia Republic" but descended to the aegean islands? Do they live now in the aegean islands or returned? Are there verifiable sources on that? --Dimorsitanos (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
Just to clarify, if someone originates from the Aegean, it unambiguously means that they originate from one of the Aegean islands, it has always signified the islands and nothing else. For instance, there are no Aegean Peloponnesians and Ionian Peloponnesians indicating which side of the region they come from. When people say they are going on an Aegean cruise - they do not mean some land safari... And there is a 'Greek Minister for the Aegean' - and his mandate certainly does not include Thessaloniki, or the littoral of the Greek province of Macedonia or any other mainland coast, just islands and the inhabitants of the Aegean. Regarding coastal Macedonia, all ethnic maps show it as inhabited by Greeks (as Plato said, Greeks live round the Aegean like frogs around a pond), there were no Slavs or Bulgarians or Turks. Also, coastal Macedonia was hardly inhabited at all during the Ottoman Empire. The term 'Aegean Macedonians' is not even used in Greece by the handful of (Slav) Makedonce autonomists. The term was specifically constructed after WWII as an irredentist marker (however,this does not mean that editors here use it as such). But, since 1947(?) it is used as a self-reference tag by some former Greek citizens from Greek Macedonia and some of their descendants who do not live in Greece and who have or have developed an ethnic (Slav) Makedonce identity. Politis (talk) 21:37, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, that's clear now, thanks for the info, but 'Aegean' from 'Aegean Macedonians' does not refer to the Aegean as you described it. Aegean is a translation of Егејски, which means 'relating to the Aegean part of Macedonia'. Please note, I'm sorry if you see it as an irridentist term, but I'm not using it as such. We use Vardar/Pirin/Aegean Macedonia to refer to the parts of the region Macedonia which we see as populated by ethnic Macedonians (there's no need to discuss that matter now), among others, and we do not (necessarily) think that they should all belong to "our" state! 'Aegean Macedonians' is just a term and it's not my fault that people use it for nearly 60 years. If you want to change that fact... Please call for arbitration! :D --iNkubusse? 12:24, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Arbitration for content or even term dispute?!--Yannismarou (talk) 17:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sarcasm. Please don't mind. --iNkubusse? 17:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ak, ok then!--Yannismarou (talk) 18:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sarcasm. Please don't mind. --iNkubusse? 17:47, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Kostas Novakis readd
Kostas Novakis has been added in the Notable Aegean Macedonian gallery. I'm not sure if Greeks have any concerns toward it, but his article and the evidence I have found in that article indicate he is a Macedonian from Greece (Aegean Macedonian) and the evidence was not argued for over 2 months. If you would like to learn further information, please view discussion of the Kostas article. Mactruth (talk) 20:29, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have also alphabetized the list, hope it looks better then before! Mactruth (talk) 20:38, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- It has been argued; that is why there was a [dubious ] template! Or didn't you see it?! In the same way probably you hadn't seen that you had put the picture of a wrong person in Tsarknias' article. That is why I have no trust to your encyclopedic skills. And what is this Center of yours, for which I cannot find a single page in English? Can you provide me one, proving its existence, role and importance? Or an internet page of the Center itself naming its most prominent members? But, if you feel that the addition (even dubious) of one name makes a difference, then keep your name. I do not intend to revert. But, at the same time, I'd really like you to prove me the notability of all these red links you have put in the list. If they are so important these Aegean Macedonians, why don't you stubify them? And by the way, go to any other WP article about ethnic groups, and find me such a similar list. Then explain me its utility, because other than intentionally causing frictions with Greek users, and especially Macedonian ones, I cannot find.--Yannismarou (talk) 13:57, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
There was no reason to have a dubious template, the source (Greek Member State Committee of EBLUL) has an email and phone number, so if you believe that Novakis is not a part of the "Centre for Macedonian Culture" then CONTACT THEM! There is no reason for you to be complaining about the issue, e-mail them if your doubts are that strong but simply because you have doubts and don't do anything about it, doesn't mean its not credible. It seems like I hear alot of complaining from you. I did not state I was stubbing any Aegean Macedonians, I stated I was going to organize the ALREADY existing names and add Novakis that you removed during my ban. Mactruth (talk) 14:44, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- Is there any problem of understanding here, Mactruth? I did not ask you whether Novakis is or is not a member of the Centre for Macedonian Culture. I asked you to provide me with an internet location in English explaining what is this centre? Because I can't find anything. Can you do that or not? And leave aside this bullshit about mails, because it is irrelevant. I read what you stated, and again this is not what I care of. My questions are clear and sound: Are these red links notable people or not per WP:NOTABILITY? If yes, why don't you stubify them? If not, they should be removed. You left the last comment of mine with no response, and I perceive that as a potential inability of giving any convincing response at all.--Yannismarou (talk) 15:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
If you knew the history behind the Center for Macedonian Culture you would know that it was a center put forth by the Macedonians in the Florina region of Greece in the 1990s. Greece rejected the building of the Center because it denied a Macedonian minority therefore no Center for an imaginary minority could be built. It was taken to the European Commission of Human Rights because all Greek courts excused it. How could you not find any information on it, it was part of the Human Rights Watch Report: Macedonians of Greece page 20. Anyways, more information should be available at the Rainbow Party Website, try looking there because I don't have the time right now.
The problem behind the "red links" is that I did not know who put the names up or for what reason. You are right though they need to be stubified, but it can't be done in a day. I'm sure it could be done in a couple of months, but until then be patient. Mactruth (talk) 17:08, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you about these links, concerning the Macedonian Center. As far as the red links are concern, no, I am not patient. If notability not proven in due time, I'll remove them.--Yannismarou (talk) 12:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
It is Mactruth, forgot my password
The recent changes made to the article are obviously worded to favor a Macedonian identity being created by Communism, where in fact Macedonian identity arose earlier then that, as well known occurring in the 1800s. Part of the article states, which source, that Ottoman identity was based on church affiliation, only to go later to state that Macedonian identity is new. Not so.
"after WWI a new identity arose..." C'mon Greek and Bulgarian stop writing simply to prove your biased views that their are no Macedonians and write objectively. I am changing the wording and please be fair about the issue (please see: Macedonian nationalism) 68.40.244.138 (talk) 20:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
"In 1934 the Comintern issued a declaration supporting the development of the Macedonian identity a decision which was attacked by the pro-Bulgarian IMRO, but was supported by the Greek Communist Party." Everyone knows there were two IMROs, one supported independent Macedonia, and the other supported Macedonia integration into Bulgaria, and yet here you claim the whole IMRO is pro-Bulgarian. These are statements that must be cautioned. Todor Alexandroff wouldn't have been killed by Bulgarian officials in Sofia in 1924 while trying to free the Pirin Macedonia if IMRO was pro-Bulgarian. Read: My wonders into the Balkans by Dudley Heathcote page 147. 68.40.244.138 (talk) 20:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know it's you, don't worry. No problem in that. The problem is that in fact the whole IMRO was pro-Bulgarian. It was just like the previous revolutions - the differences were in the immediate goals they wanted to reach - autonomy and unification or straight forward unification. The ethnic Macedonian idea as such and completely independent from the Bulgarian one did turn up after WWI. That's a fact again and Western sources tend to agree on that.--Laveol T 21:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- IMRO split into two divisions, one was pro-Bulgarian in which integration of Macedonia into Bulgaria was its goal, the other was pro-Macedonian which wanted an autonomous or independent Macedonia. 68.40.244.138 (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Human rights issues section
Why is it being disputed for neutrality? Mactruth (talk) 21:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Dubious statement
- I've removed the following sentence "parallel to the Greek and Bulgarian in the region of Macedonia, and was initially supported by IMRO (United) with the ref:The Situation in Macedonia and the Tasks of IMRO (United) - published in the official newspaper of IMRO (United), "Македонско дело", Но.185, Април 1934.
- I really doubt the document says they support ethnic Macedonian nationalism. You can have a secondary ref or something, but that one simply does not work for the statement. --Laveol T 09:35, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
88.218.183.207
A person with IP address 88.218.183.207 keeps deleting Macedonian articles such as Aegean Macedonians. Could the administrators try to find out if this person has an account on Wikipedia and have them banned? Mactruth (talk) 02:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Ahem...
Sooo, some people expect this article to become status-quo and then claim that it has been quietly sitting here for so long and now some people (bloody Greeks) want to have it deleted/merged? Should finally something be done about it? Just read Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Deprecated_names_(province), Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Deprecated_names_(regional_group) where it is clearly stated that Aegean Macedonia and Aegean Macedonians are offensive terms. And we keep a whole article under that offensive title?-- Avg 14:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand how Aegean Macedonians can be offensive to Greeks. Ethnic Macedonians from Greece call themselves Aegeans or Aegean Macedonians, that is different from forcing a name on the Greeks suck as "Grkomani" or "Christian Turk." It is also different from forcing a name on the Macedonians such as "Skopjan" or "BulgaroSkopjan." I believe the only way Aegean Macedonian can be offensive to Greeks is if ethnic Macedonians call Greeks that (due to past Hellenization). Ethnic Macedonians self determinate as "Aegean Macedonian," which cannot be offensive for another ethnic group (Greeks) since the name is not forced upon the latter.
- MY only other argument would be the term Aegean Macedonian shows ethnic Macedonians have lived in Greece in the past and live in Greece in the present. Since the Greek government denies the minority, it may be offensive since it goes against governmental policy (somehow the offensiveness of non-recognition of the minority isn't worried about).
- Anyways, ethnic Macedonians from Greece could also call themselves "Greek Macedonian" (which they have been called in the past) but that would conflict with the regional Greek Macedonians (Greek ethnicity, Macedonian regionally). Mactruth (talk) 14:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- This has been discussed ad nauseam, but once again, "Aegean" Macedonia is an offensive term by itself (Greeks do not call their part of Macedonia "Aegean"). So referring to the Greek Macedonia with a term Greeks (or neutral scholars) do not use is offensive, especially since this has been continuously used in an irredentist context by ethnic Macedonians.
- Now referring to ethnic Macedonians as "Aegeans" is not only offensive but completely unencyclopaedic since 1) Aegeans are unambiguously people that come from the Aegean Sea (so either Greeks or Turks). 2) Even if "Aegean Macedonia" was an accepted term, then "Aegean Macedonians" would overwhelmingly be its 2.5 million Greek inhabitants. It is like we had an article named North Macedonians which is how Greeks who come from the Republic of Macedonia call themselves (so direct correspondence with your argument about "Aegean Macedonians"). I'm not making this up, see the link here:[7] ) I'm sure though you would deem that offensive? Or should I just go and create an article named North Macedonians right now?
- As I've mentioned before, the only title that can hold some weight is Ethnic Macedonians originating from Greece and then again we would need much more reliable sources for the numbers. Care should be taken to differentiate from Slavophone Greeks, and how many generations are really relevant? Why Gruevski for example is considered an "Aegean Macedonian" since he's a third-generation immigrant to RoM? - Avg 19:47, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- Don't be naive, Greek Macedonian used to be a term describing ethnic Macedonians living in Greece, but the term was taken by the Greeks in calling themselves the regional "Greek Macedonian." Can you guys already self-determinate already? What, now you want to be called Aegean Macedonian also? It seems as though you only want it because our people regionally self-determinate as that, and if we didn't then you guys would've have a care in the world for it. "Aegean Macedonians" = Macedonians living by the Aegean Sea, don't be so quick to state its irredentist simply because of the term "Aegean Macedonia." As for the BLOG, its funny with no sources and no human rights organization statements.
- Think of it this way, There's Macedonians, Aegean Macedonians (regional) and Pirin Macedonians (regional). Whether our not it is based on "Aegean Macedonia" is no matter, because that is how they self-determinate, at least they are not forcing a name on the Greek Macedonians like Dora who states openly "Republic of Skopje" and "Skopjans" even though the interim accord does not state it will be called anything other then FYR Macedonia for temporary use, and it sure as heck doesn't give a guideline for our self-determination. Mactruth (talk) 14:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think you guys have already chosen your regional self-determination of Greek Macedonian, you just seem confused with your statements about what to call yourself. If you want to start calling yourselves Aegean Macedonians and North Macedonians and Republic of Macedonians go ahead, but it does seem entertaining, but I wouldn't expect anything less from a population who is mostly assimilated ethnic Macedonians/Bulgarians/Vlachs etc or Christian Turk and Pontic Greek refugees, you guys say we're confused about our ethnicity but its obvious this nationalism from you guys wouldn't exist, and you guys would not give a shi* about Alexander the Great or calling yourselves Macedonians if it wasn't for your obsession with for some reason "competing." Anyways, can't expect anything less from a population whose Macedonian fighters were all Cretan volunteers, and whose commander in chief was from Epirus. Mactruth (talk) 14:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no confusion. The Greeks of Macedonia self-identify as Macedonians, pure and simple, not "Greek Macedonians", "Aegean Macedonians" or whatever else. The question is whether this is an appropriate title for an article, which it clearly isn't due to the ambiguity of the term Macedonian and the fact that Aegean denotes Greek geography. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 17:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sure you've never used a pejorative epithet in your life. Please. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 23:18, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Во ова реченица ќе го пишувам зборот грк само за да видам каква ќе ти биде реакцијата. Знам дека ќе ме вознемируваш за преведување ама ајде прво ќути си. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 07:25, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Малце е смешно бидејќи јас можам да преведувам тоа што пишуваш, а ти не. Сепак, преводот не е толку добар. Ајде неколку други мудрости. Вдланих твих ја теѓ розкветам. Добрего и карчма ние зепсује, а злего и кошчол ние направи. Зла зелина невихиние. Армут дибинер дишер. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 07:50, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Неколку други, тогаш. А коњвек нема местерек. Аш немоку калбети. Последното не е мудрост, ама кој ќе знае? BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 08:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Δεν κατάλαβες, μου φαίνεται. Κακώς βεβαίως, αφού ως βλαχόπουλο θα έπρεπε να γνωρίζεις άψογα την ελληνική. Αλλά δεν φταις εσύ. Αυτά σε μάθανε, αυτά λες. Κατά τα άλλα, δεν συμφωνείς ότι το πρόσφατο κοινοβουλευτικό ψήφισμα για τις δήθεν «περιουσίες των Αιγαιατών» υπονομεύει την οικοδόμηση σχέσεων καλής γειτονίας μεταξύ Ελλάδας και Σκοπίων; ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Гума рлуту гумаран гати шгреклу тугра динак сена. Нели е така? BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 08:35, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Si ustedes aceptan que Macedonia no es una nación, sino que es una región pero que es plurinacional, y que el pacto entre naciones puede conformar una forma determinada de cooperación, podríamos empezar a entendernos. Porque "Macedonia" uninación es Esclavinia ampliada. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 08:58, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Vous devez accepter qu'il y a des gens qui s'appellent «Macédoniens» et qui utilisent le nom avec un niveau ethnique. Il n'y a qu'une peuple qui l'utilise dans ce façon. Personne ne peut le changer. Ce n'est pas ma faute, mais c'est la vérité. Et ils habitent dans la région de Macédoine, pas seul dans la République de Macédoine. Vous ne croyez pas qu'ils existent, surtout dans la Gréce. Ouvrez vos yeux. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 09:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Non, ce n'est pas vrai. C'est absurde. Il semble que votre gouvernement pense au lieu de vous. Quel dommage. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 10:42, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Esto es precisamente lo que se parece que nunca podréis entender. Creéis que vuestros insultos nos hacen daño. Al contrario, hacen daño a vosotros mismos. A nosotros sólo nos hacen más fuertes y determinados. A propósito, nuestro gobierno no piensa por nosotros; nosotros somos el gobierno. Esto, mi hijito, se llama δημοκρατία. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 10:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Kékrōps, now I see why your government is so nationalistic. :D If the people here were the government, we would've been in war by now; they're damn angry, but our government is just too democratic and nonaggressive. Why this talk anyway? What are we solving? And why the five languages? Damn! --iNkubusse? 12:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Bla bla bla, bla bla bla bla bla blabla bla blabla bla bla bla bla:
- Bla bla bla bla bla! Bla bla bla bla bla bla lol.
- Translation: Why are you using different languages lol? Brainmachine (talk) 13:00, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Kékrōps, now I see why your government is so nationalistic. :D If the people here were the government, we would've been in war by now; they're damn angry, but our government is just too democratic and nonaggressive. Why this talk anyway? What are we solving? And why the five languages? Damn! --iNkubusse? 12:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Because it's cool, damn it! Wait a minute... I'm not in this discussion :S
Köbra | Könverse 13:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Ahemmmmm!!! I see that since Avg's first statement, the conversation has completely lost its way... Anyway, as Wikipedia officially recognises that "Aegean Macedonia" is offensive and should be avoided, I cannot understand why this article hasn't been deleted, or its title has not changed so far. It makes no sense to discuss whether it is offensive or not, when we should see what are we finally going to do here.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ahemmm!!! Maybe you don't realize something: there is a difference between land, and its people. Whether the word for the land Aegean Macedonia is seemed offensive or not, the word for one of its people Aegean Macedonians is a different issue and is not deemed offensive. It's simple, regional Greeks call themselves "Macedonians", regional Macedonians call themselves "Aegean" (hence, Greek Macedonian and Aegean Macedonian). If you cannot comprehend that notion, then something is wrong with your comprehension and your mind is filled with double standards. And Kekrops, I did state Christian Turks, the people who arrived from Turkey were Christian Turks and Pontic Greeks. That is the reality, you call us Bulgarian several times so don't be hypocritical. You mean ethnic Macedonian on a modern sense, I mean Greek-Macedonian also in a modern sense. Like I stated before: The Macedonian fighters were Cretan volunteers, and the commander was from Epirus. Mactruth (talk) 17:21, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- You're still missing the point, because you rush and don't read everything that has been provided to you. Check this out! --Michael X the White (talk) 17:31, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- I understand your point, but it is only aggression if "Aegean Macedonian" is directed towards the Greeks of Macedonia, which this article is not, that is my point. The article can either be called "Aegean Macedonians" (which the ethnic Macedonians call themselves, "Aegean") or "Greek Macedonian" (which is what historians have called ethnic Macedonians of Greece in the past). As for the website, whether Aegean Macedonian is offensive and why it is offensive was not discussed before it was added, and only Kepros replied stating the lame excuse that land and people are the same. The offensiveness of a land name is a horrible excuse for stating the a regional name of a people is offensive. Also, Kepros why is it that Jim Karagiannis cannot decide if he is Greek or Armenian? Mactruth (talk) 21:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- This article started in May 2008 [8]. MOSMAC referred to Aegean Macedonians as offensive since May 2007 [9], that's a whole year earlier and this has never been reverted from the MoS article, never even been contested in the talk page, because simply, it is true. There are other, much more controversial issues to debate if you're inclined to, this one is not even controversial. People are indeed offended and, to come back to my original post, still, we have an article with an offensive title. However, let me add that I don't believe a simple rename is sufficient for this article. This has been a POV fork since edit number one and I have consistently refused to add or remove a single iota to/from it, since I do not even want to indirectly legitimize its existence. If it isn't deleted, which still is my first choice (although realistically I can predict another "no consensus" in a second AfD), it needs a major, major rewrite with proper fact checking.-- Avg 21:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Разговорот е во мноогу повеќе од пет јазици. Пробајте да ги читате моите одговори ;) BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 07:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I just wanna make it obvious to everyone that this discussion makes no difference. If you want to have an article deleted, having a "bitch fit" on the talk page is not gonna make it disappear. Köbra | Könverse 08:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Алал да ти е, човек. Ама што друго ќе прават овие ако престанат да не досадуваат? Ваков мајтап им е вечна цел. BalkanFevernot a fan? say so! 09:16, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Age, I have found the precise change in which "Aegean Macedonian" being offensive was added. NikoSilver, though a very decent Greek which I have great respect for, did not state the reasoning behind adding "Aegean Macedonian" as being offensive, which is a discussion I raised. NikoSilver himself states about Aegean Macedonians that, "I do respect the self identification of these people, and I also respect how they call their language, and for those across the border, their country" without recognizing that they self-ID as "Aegean Macedonian" Mactruth (talk) 22:40, 3 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mactruth (talk) 02:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- And so what?? It is a long time since then, and, since it has been accepted, (per WP:CONSENSUS) WP:MOSMAC, and more precisely, Wikipedia:MOSMAC#Deprecated_names_(regional_group) is now official WikiPolicy. Anyway, as the discussion really won't make any change, let's pass to action. Concerning the deletion of this article:
Supporting the deletion:
Michael X the White
Avg
ΚΕΚΡΩΨ
Fanis7
Against the deletion:
Mactruth
Balkan Fever
Please add your names in this list, so that the discussion reaches a consensus.I am afraid this is the only way. --Michael X the White (talk) 12:46, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Haven't you ever heard of consensus?! I mean, do you even know what consensus means? This is voting, not consensus! Do you really think the other admins will just agree with what the majority (Greeks) will say? Read this carefully: consensus and voting are totally different things, and this is the latter. --iNkubusse? 14:15, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is not a vote to decide! This is a vote to support nomination for deletion.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Michael, based on populations there are 5 times for Greeks then there are Macedonians, therefore a vote would create a bias. Anyways, the statement you refer to is derogatory if Greeks are called that. Also, if you didn't realize above it states "This article was nominated for deletion on May 16, 2008. The result of the discussion was No Consensus." Mactruth (talk) 02:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
That means no decision, not delete nor keep.--Michael X the White (talk) 18:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Haha, no, it does not! It means 'No consensus for deletion', which means that the community has reached consensus for keeping the article. --iNkubusse? 19:55, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is of course false and in fact a logical fallacy. Wouldn't normally bother but don't want the above to stay unanswered just in case someone claims later that we implicitly agree with this statement. "No consensus" means no consensus, not consensus to the opposite.-- Avg 18:47, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, you're right about that, it's a logical fallacy and I resent that. So, are we just going to nominate it an indefinite number of times until the community gets sick and accepts deletion? I think you can clearly see the will of the almighty community from all the discussions. --iNkubusse? 04:31, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes,yes,yes! Haven't you seen "the will of the almighty community"??? It's No Consensus. By the way, Inkbusse, check WikiTruth (wikinews) There was an article recently aboyt an article that was nominated 18 times for deletion.--Michael X the White (talk) 15:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Michael, you have to comprehend deleting the article would delete a whole subgroup of people, much like ethnic Macedonians nominating the deletion of a "Greek Macedonian" article. Whether the regional identification was through nationalism or territorial claims, it doesn't matter. Their identity (regional and ethnic) remains through changes of political and national ambitions. I don't know how else to put it, hopefully you understand. Mactruth (talk) 02:08, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- You are describing the situation inaccurately. Greeks don't have a problem recognizing FYROM citizens as an ethnic identity but not at the expense of wiping out their own Macedonian heritage. FYROM citizens need to chose a name for themselves that doesn't conflict with Macedonians. To a Greek its like calling themselves "ethnic Athenians" and later pretending Athens is occupied territory and Plato was Slavic. Macedonia is Greek. Like Sparta is Greek. Like Athens is Greek. Stop bothering us with irredentist propaganda. We refuse to be ethnically cleansed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossthets (talk • contribs) 08:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Verifiability
It's quite typical that editors will use a reference in their native tongue to back up a claim they just made. I'm just letting people know that foreign language sources should have a translation of the portion of text they have used (per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources). Predictably, this applies to the Bulgarian, Greek and Macedonian language sources used. Köbra | Könverse 13:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
No such thing as "Aegean Macedonia"
Why is this ridiculous topic even up for discussion? There is no such thing as "Aegean Macedonia". The region is called "Macedonia" and it a province in Greece in every map and reference (other than FYROM related sources). The vast majority of people in the region call themselves Macedonians... not "Aegean Macedonians". The vast majority identify as ethnic Greeks...even the majority of ones that speak FYROM's Bulgarian dialect. (see Rainbow Party of Greece totals to get this through your heads already)
This is just more evidence that Greece's claims of irredentist behavior are true. Same characters over and over again trying to pretend Greek Macedonians don't exist or trying to remap Greek ethnicity/history/territory to match FYROM government propaganda. --Crossthets (talk) 08:23, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- This article is about the group of ethnic Macedonians who call themselves Aegean Macedonians, the people that live/d alongside the Greeks in the Greek province of Macedonia, as an ethnic minority. Screaming "propaganda" is not an argument. Nobody cares what you think about "evidence". If you have nothing constructive to add, find soemthing else to do. BalkanFever 08:34, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Well done, you want "Aegean Macedonia" to be a valid term to refer to a Greek place and at the same time "Aegean Macedonians" to be a valid term to refer to ethnic Macedonians in this place! So the term to characterize the inhabitants of a Greek place refers to non-Greeks! Can it be more irredentist than that? It is obvious to any third party that the very reason you use the term "Aegean Macedonians" is because you believe that "Aegean Macedonia" is not Greek. -- Avg 15:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Hear, hear. BF, you're always harping on about how "Greek" these "Aegean Macedonians" are or would be, if only the evil Greeks would let them. Why would they call themselves something that deliberately negates their Greekness? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 16:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- Oh please! We might as well all have a cry now!. We should really get an Aegean Macedonia onto wiki just to tell you people a story from another point of veiw. Or why not just go to the office of the Rainbow Party and ask them why they identify as this, also you can give them a nice big: Здраво браќа Македонци !! PMK1 (talk) 10:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Can you answer the above question please? Why in the same encyclopedia Aegean Macedonia is a Greek region and Aegean Macedonians are not Greek? -- Avg 12:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- Nice try to obfuscate the issue PMK. The Rainbow Party.... all 3000 votes in Macedonia... or roughly 0.2% of the total population. Maybe we should put them all together in a big banquet hall so they can explain to the other 2500000 Macedonian (Greeks) how Greeks are no longer Macedonian because FYROM citizens decided to call themselves "ethnic Macedonians". Perhaps in a hundred years they'll decide to call themselves "ethnic Athenians" and claim Greeks aren't Athenians either?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossthets (talk • contribs) 14:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
- To answer AVG's serious question and to dismiss Crossthets fantasies. The impression that Greeks give to most people is that "AEGEAN MACEDONIA" is an irredentist Slavic term for the "Greek region of Macedonia". This is not the case and as i proved a long time ago it is not just south slavs but basically half of the world!. Also Greeks do not identify themselves as "AEGEAN MACEDONIANS" because they reject the term "AEGEAN MACEDONIA" altogher, prefering just Macedonia or Greek Macedonia. The way that the term "AEGEAN MACEDONIANS" can be used for a group of ethnic macedonians is because that is the way that the have decided to call themsleves based on the way which they call the place they live or are from, Aegean Macedonia. PMK1 (talk) 11:33, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Rainbow party totals of 3000 are verifiable (and secret election ballots make it hard to argue oppression). The FYROM government is incorrect to suggest hundreds of thousands of Greek citizens see themselves as "ethnic Macedonians". Nor did anyone ever suggest Macedonian Greeks call themselves "aegean Macedonians". (They simply call themselves "Macedonians"... exactly like Slavic FYROM citizens did when they also called themselves Yugoslavians).
- The fact is a handful of Bulgarian IMRO members and a few scattered writers that acknowledge their Bulgarian roots makes not an ancient ethnic group with ties to ancient Macedon. There are reasons why FYROM citizens now speak a Slavic dialect and give their kids Slavic names... whereas Greeks speak Greek and give their children Greek names. The ethnic division of the cultures is very old... dating back to the time of the first Slavic invasions in the Macedonia region in the 7th century CE.
- As for your alleged "proof" that FYROM citizen's Macedonian status isn't the result of a combination of modern irredentist Bulgarian and Yugoslavian policies... I recommend you review any | official Ottoman census of the period. Where exactly is there mention of "ethnic Macedonians"? Why does every census from the period make no mention of them? Everyone else is mentioned not FYROM citizens? Were Turkish census takers part of the Greek conspiracy too? Or how about the US secretary of State that wrote the following on 1944.
- The Department has noted increasing propaganda rumors and semi-official statements in favor of an autonomous Macedonia, emanating principally from Bulgaria, but also from Yugoslav Partisan and other sources, with the implication that Greek territory would be included in the projected state. This Government (of USA) considers talk of Macedonian “nation”, Macedonian “Fatherland”, or Macedonian “national consciousness” to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic, nor political reality, and sees in its present revival a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece. The approved policy of this Government is to oppose any revival of the Macedonian issue as related to Greece. The Greek section of Macedonia is largely inhabited by Greeks, and the Greek people are almost unanimously opposed to the creation of a Macedonian state. Allegations of serious Greek participation in any such agitation can be assumed to be false. This Government (of USA) would regard as responsible any Government or group of Governments tolerating or encouraging menacing or aggressive acts of “Macedonian forces” against Greece. (U.S. State Department', Foreign Relations Vol. VIII, 868.014 / 26 Dec. 1944)
- When instead of avoiding the issues you provide reasonable explanations for such major discrepancies in your world view... it will be easier to take you seriously PMK. Until then consider the possibility people may be right to suggest many FYROM nationals are the victims of communist propaganda (and are unfairly taking it out on Greeks as a result). They wouldn't be the first victims of it. --209.161.234.221 (talk) 20:07, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
Caption
"Fighters of the 1st Aegean Shock Brigade marching through liberated Bitola." Fighters of which country? Liberated? By whom from whom? When?--Michael X the White (talk) 21:46, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- (ethnic) Macedonian fighters. Liberated by them from fascist occupation. BalkanFever 01:07, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
A connection to this article is not at all obvious though.--Michael X the White (talk) 11:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)