Talk:Peter Tordenskjold

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matches[edit]

you might want to incorperate into the article that a widely avalible brand of matchsticks in denmark is named "Tordenskjold" and features a painting of him on the front. the matches are, ironicaly, made by a swedish company.

Nationality[edit]

Edited Tordenskjolds nationality from 'Danish-Norwegian' to Norwegian. In order to be 'Danish-Norwegian' one parent had to be from Denmark. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit (talk • contribs) 15:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the nationality change. Nationality is not as simple as where your parents are from -I doubt that anyone would dispute that Arnold Schwarzenegger is American as well as Austrian, although none of his parents are Americans.
The nationality of Tordenskjold is debated on da:Diskussion:Peter Wessel Tordenskiold right now (in Danish), and it should be noted that all but one of the interwiki-versions of this article until recently had "Danish-Norwegian" (or Norwegian-Danish) listed as the nationality. -- JGC 21:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Arnold is Austrian-/american because he is an american citizen by choice. Peter wessel was simply a Norwegian serving in the Danish navy. Norwegian wikipedia describes him as a Norwegian officer serving in the Danish navy. This is a more correct description as its based on facts not nationalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit (talk • contribs) 12:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are rewriting history. Please give some examples of solid written sources stating that Tordenskjold was Norwegian and not Danish (and Norwegian).
Of the two Norwegian wikis, only one of them state him as sole Norwegian (no:Peter Wessel), while the other - as most other wikis - list him as coming from both countries (nn:Peter Wessel Tordenskjold). --JGC 13:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What? He was born and raised in Norway. You are blatanlty POV and nationalistic. Even Danish wiki confirm that he was born in Trondheim http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Wessel_Tordenskiold The reason why Danish wiki says hes 'Danish-Norwegian' is because hes the greatest hero in the history on Denmark-Norway. And you nationalistic Danes cant handle the fact that youre greatest hero is fullblood Norwegian. Stop being an POV idiot. 

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nastykermit (talk • contribs) 18:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Every child in Denmark knows he was from Trondheim because it says so in one of the most popular children's songs ever. I doubt many Norwegians could tell you that. Personally, I'd have no problem classifying him as Norwegian, although your modern notions of nationality didn't apply back then. Helmuth von Molkte was from Schleswig, but we don't consider him a Dane, do we? Tordenskjold was ennobled by king Frederik, so whatever he was, he was a Danish nobleman. But 'the greatest hero in Danish history?' Who's being the nationalist here? Tordenskjold was a mere frigate captain, a raider, and his admiral title little more than a honorific. And he WAS a reckless egomaniac and only held on to his command because the king liked him. Being on the matches or in popular songs doesn't make you a hero and Tordenskjold doesn't hold a candle to a real fleet commander like Niels Juel, whom, I now notice, is designated a 'Dano-Norwegian', despite both his parents being Danish. Your contribution too? //roger.duprat.copenhagen

Third Opinion: After reviewing material in my home edition of Britannica, and doing a Google search on the topic, my conclusion is clear. Tordenskjold was born in Trondhjem, Norway, which makes him Norwegian. This, however is not where it ends.

Let's back up and look at this objectively, so you can both see my point of view. I was born and raised in the USA. If I decide to run off to Denmark, am I still an American? I would surely say so. Would I be Danish-American? No. Would my children, if born in Denmark to me, their American father, and a Danish woman, be considered Danish-American? Yes, you could say so. If I swore allegiance to Denmark, and became a citizen, I would then say I am Danish or Danish-American.

Simply moving to another country, in my opinion, does not change ones nationality. The question you must ask is: Did Tordenskjold swear allegiance to Denmark and/or become a citizen? Obviously so, as he fought for their Navy. It is quite difficult to fight for the military of another nation, successfully I might add, without valuing that country.

Therefore, my third opinion, which you may take with whatever grain-of-salt you so desire is: Peder Tordenskjold was Norwegian by birth, but Danish-Norwegian through most of his life. I think it is fair to list him as Danish-Norwegian in any reference/articles about him.

Jsmykal 17:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, thanks for the third opinion. I think however that you might have missed a point - the two countries Denmark and Norway was - at Tordenskjolds time - engaged in a union. Tordenskjold did not have to swear allegiance to Denmark, since he as citizen of the union already would be considered a loyal soldier. There was - to my knowledge (I should argue that I'm not a historian) - no Norwegian navy that Tordenskjold could have joined - only a single navy with people from both countries in the union.
There can be - and most certainly are - quite different view of the long union between Denmark and Norway - and I will not deny that many Norwegians see the union as a time of suppression. But it is an indisputable fact that Tordenskjold is central part of Danish history (as well as Norwegian history). If his is listed as Norwegian - and not Danish/Norwegian - it would seem he was hired or "loaned" from Norway to serve the Danish navy - that is not a correct description. --JGC 18:49, 29 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There were no 'Norwegian navy' as already mentioned, only the Danish so in fact he was kind of loaned. JGC, the vast majority of Norwegians (and historians) see the union as a disaster for the Kingdom of Norway. Ibsen our most famous writer refers to it as the '400 year night'. It delt a severe blow to Norwegian culture and language, and Norwegian state goods as well as silver mines were emptied to finance Danish wars across the continet as well as building palaces in Copenhagen. as a result of Dane wars, Norway lost Jamtland, Bohuslån, Herjedalen, Iceland, The Faroese Island and Greenland. I have encountered many danes who seam to have a very innocent view of the union, and to Norwegians that view can be quite offensive. Nastykermit 08:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is and has been a hot topic regarding any famous Norwegian from the time of the union with Denmark. Ludvig Holberg is also a hot candidate for this debate. It is important to note that the notion of state in Tordenskjold's time does not fit with our notion of the modern state. A Norwegian author (I forget his name right now) in the 1700s wrote that he and his contemporaries had a dual citicenship: their natural was Norwegian and their "political" was of the Oldenburg state they shared with Danes, Holsteiners etc. When it comes to military service Norway and Denmark had separate national armies, both ruled by the king. The navy was regarded as the king's property and was common to all the components of the Oldenburg state. That being said it was common for officers to have an international career. Many officers both in the two armies and in the fleet were German or Dutch. I have read several accounts of officers in foreign service being recalled to their home country in times of war for that country. It seems there could be a dual loyalty, but this is less relevant in Tordenskjold's case as he was serving in the fleet of the king of Norway. What he himself felt is not known. I suspect he was Norwegian in his roots and origin, but had an international upper class identity in his later years. The bottom line here is that he is a hero both for Norway and the Norwegian Navy and Denmark and the Danish navy. The article must reflect that. Inge 14:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are the one being nationalistic, Tordenskjold was born and died in the Danish-Norwegian kingdom, and thus he is Danish and Norwegian. It is you norwegian nationalists who can't handle that he isn't fullblood Norwegian. Furthermore out biggest naval hero is Carl Wilhelm Jessen; but I'm sure you want to call him Norwegian as well. User:81.44.118.20
This last comment really illustrates the comedy of having a discussion on this level. As can be seen in the history the anon first named Niels Juel as the greatest naval hero but then apparantly read the article and saw he was in fact born in Norway as well...Inge (talk) 13:48, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The book "For Norge, kjempers fødeland" by Øystein Rian published in 2007 deals in part with Tordenskjold's own attitude towards his country or nationality. The oldest known song about him was made in the fall of 1715 by a Danish priest and calls him the Norwegian sea hero. Tordenskjold himself preferred Norwegian crew and called himself Norwegian on several occations (page 200). In a letter to the king 16 November 1716 he asks for a sign of good will towards "os Dynekildens norske drenge" (us Norwegian lads of the Dynekil). In 1712 he renamed the captured ship "Svenska Vapnet" to "Norske Våben". The Norwegian lion was the basic element of his signet. In his letters he mentions no other geographical area more than Norway. He would use phrases such as "de norske grenser" (the Norwegian borders) and "den norske vald" (areas belonging to Norway). He would differentiate between Norwegian and Danish sailors and soldiers and called groups of Norwegian merchant ships "den norske flåde" and the part of the Common Navy stationed in Norway "den norske søarmatur". He would emphasise the separateness by using phrases such as "velsignelse i begge riger" (blessing in both realms). He also called Norway both "kjære" and "ælskelig" "fæderneland" (dear and lovable fatherland). Inge (talk) 14:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In case we are still discussing this. Denmark-Norway was an entity back then, so let's keep it at that in the start of the article. I think it is as neutral as we're going to get. However, this certainly is a controversy - most Danes consider him Danish, most Norwegians consider him Norwegian, I think. This could easily merit a brief section in the article, something like "Nationality dispute" or whatever. IF, and only if, we can find neutral, reliable sources - i.e. a reliable source that describes the disagreement accurately and without bias towards one side or the other being correct. This is what we always do on Wikipedia. -Lilac Soul (talk • contribs • count) • I'm watching this page so just reply to me right here! 09:28, 12 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The time has come to end this confused discussion. The confusion stems from the failure by most contributors to distinguish between the terms nationality and citizenship. At the time of Tordenskjold, Denmark-Norway was one state consisting of two kingdoms, two duchies and some other territories in a personal and legislative union. But Denmark and Norway were considered two kingdoms, not one. The royal title was always "King of Denmark and Norway etc." The former state now usually called Denmark-Norway, or in both languages "helstaten", was at that time often referred to as Denmark for short, but on formal occasions called "tvillingrigerne" — "the twin realms". Except for a few separate Norwegian institutions, the state was closely integrated. It had one common state church and one navy. The state may best be compared to the United Kingdom of Great Britain" established in 1707 as a legislative union between the former kingdoms of England and Scotland.

The subjects of the king of Denmark-Norway would in today's terms be citizens of that consolidated state, much as natives of Great Britain are citizens of the United Kingdom, not of England or Scotland. But in terms of nationality, most citizens of the United Kingdom consider themselves to be Englishmen or Scots, respectively, in spite of efforts to construct a common British identity. Sean Connery may tolerate being called British, but certainly not English.

Similarly, the citizens of Denmark-Norway considered themselves to be of Danish or Norwegian nationality, as has been well documented by the eminent historian Øystein Rian, referred to by Inge above. They did not have recourse to a common term similar to "British" as a way out. For that reason, and because the legal status of the united kingdoms was not well known, foreigners often called all Dano-Norwegian citizens "Danish", just as Continental Europeans often spoke (and some still speak) of "England" when they meant (or mean) the United Kingdom. The situation of Norwegian nationals during the time of Tordenskjold was probably much the same as that of Scots in the present United Kingdom. Am I right in stating that they will usually resent being called English? There is evidence to support the assumption that not only Tordenskjold but most of his countrymen preferred to be called Norwegians, and resented to be called Danish.

That sense of belonging to a separate nation did not prevent Tordenskjold and the majority of sailors in the common Dano-Norwegian navy who were Norwegian nationals to consider themselves loyal subjects of their king — the king of Norway, who happened also to be the king of Denmark.

The crucial point here is to distinguish between nationality and citizenship. A look at the article on Scotland is recommended as an aid to discerning the difference between the concepts. If that distinction is considered, may we conclude that Tordenskjold was a Norwegian naval officer of the Dano-Norwegian navy in the service of the king of Denmark-Norway? Roede (talk) 21:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think that is a good solution, and a correct description. -- Nidator T / C 11:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Tordenskjold's soldiers[edit]

This is a Dano-Norwegian idiom originating from a cunning stratagem applied by Tordenskjold at the battle of Marstrand. We should have it mentioned in the article and also a separate article on it. __meco (talk)

Deleted info[edit]

During my recent overhaul of the article, I have excluded some snippets of information that I could not find any sources for/were unsupported by the sources I employed:

  • He commandeered the 6-gun vessel Lindorm.
  • De Olbing Galley had room for 36 guns.
  • Wessel's crew suffered seven killed and 21 wounded against De Olbing Galley.
  • The 1993 musical played at the Royal Danish Theatre in Copenhagen.

Please provide a source, when/if reinstating these details. Poulsen (talk) 09:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have deleted the part about Tordenskiolds death:

  • "and it was agreed that it was to be fought with pistols, a weapon that Tordenskiold was very skilled with. On the day of the duel, Tordenskiold's assigned second tricked him into thinking von Holstein had forfeited and left town, and convinced him to leave his firearms at home. When he arrived at the duelling field to win by default, von Holstein was waiting for him, and the duel would have to be fought with swords. Tordenskiold refused to back out, even though his sword was inferior. Tordenskiold only had his ceremonial dress sword, whereas von Holstein was armed with a Swedish cut-and-thrust military rapier (called a "karolinerverge", a "Carolean sword"). Tordenskiold was run through by his adversary, the blow slicing two arteries wide open. He stumbled a couple of steps backwards, and died in the arms of his servant Kold.[citation needed]"

This description is from a uccesful danish play from 1993 about Tordenskiold - it is a figment of the playwrites immagination and has nothing to do with history (at least it is'nt backed by any record).

Tordenskjold = Tordenskiold[edit]

The title of this article should be Peter Tordenskiold. This was his name.

--- Aaemn784 (talk) 07:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It was, but Wikipedia uses the most commonly used name, and today that is "Tordenskjold". --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:47, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. Well, common use is not always synonymous with correct use. Wikipedia is, although being an eminent concept, open for receiving information based on popular misunderstandings and mistakes. That is the case also with the name Tordenskiold.
The link below will bring you to Norway's most recognised encyclopædia, Gyldendal's Store norske leksikon. I recommend that we follow this authority instead of farmers who do not have the smallest idea of noble names and culture. I am unfortunately forced to state that the common (but not dominating) use of the form Tordenskjold, is a result of ignorance and disrespect.
General principles for orthographical standardisation (in Norway) say primarily that only names of the Middle Ages, which in Norway ended in the early 1500s, may receive modern orthography. Peter Tordenskiold was ennobled in 1716, nearly two hundred years after. He should therefore have the same spelling as the names of other noble families of the 1700s, e.g. Løvenskiold and Werenskiold.
Peter Wessel Tordenskiold
--- Aaemn784 (talk) 11:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Except for the derogatory and unnecessary remarks about "farmers" and their alleged agendas, you do make a good case. Also a simple Google search actually reveals about 100.000 more hits for "Peter Tordenskiold" than "Peter Tordenskjold". So I have revised my opinion and am now willing to support a move of this article. You can officially request moving the article here. Just follow the instructions provided on that page. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My little sign of indignation is hopefully pardonable. As you see, Wikipedia in several languages operates with a varied spectre of article titles, from Peter Wessel and to Peter Tordenskjold as well as Peter Wessel Tordenskiold. What I intended to express, is that authoritative sources are preferred; it would also have avoided this massive mess. It is indeed good that all of us, small and big, contribute to Wikipedia in accordance with out abilities (but without exceeding them).
Thanks for the instructions for requesting moves.
--- Aaemn784 (talk) 12:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move after many weeks Kotniski (talk) 09:17, 28 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Tordenskjold → Peter Wessel Tordenskiold —I suggest that Peter Tordenskiold hereby gets the standard variant of his name. Please view the discussion page, the section Tordenskjold = Tordenskiold. Aaemn784 (talk) 12:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I must say you begin your debate here by using a retoric revealing traits undeserving of basic trust. Furthermore the assertion that your suggested move gives the article the subjects standard name is false. The article has remained stable under its current name for more than 3 years. The title of Store Norskes web edition goes against the most comonly used name both within the "lowly classes" and among scholars, historians and biographers alike (which i suppose Aaemn might consider non-farmers and worthy of note). It must also be noted that Store Norske unfortunately was disbanded as a professional encyclopedia due to lack of revenue and is now trying to be wikipedia with a twist. A google search comes up with more hits for Tordenskjold than for Tordenskiold. Both if you count only the English hits and if you count all languages. To any wikipedians not familiar with the wider problem here the issue over using a modern spelling versus the old style is most of the time a proxy debate over the Norwegian language struggle. As we can see above here we have a specimen protesting what he percieves to be the agrarian spelling of this word. The spelling and thus knowledge of the perceived higher class must be authorative over the lower even though that world no longer exists. A debate based on emotion rather than consensusbuilding is more than likely. Inge (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I will hereby dissect your contribution:
1st quote: The title of Store Norskes web edition goes against the most comonly used name both within the "lowly classes" and among scholars, historians and biographers alike
Comment: Gyldendal's Big Norwegian Encyclopædia is an authoritative source and among the most recognised encyclopædias in the kingdom. The authors are professional and formally educated within their respective subjects, be it history.
You tend to claim that a contributor without relevant education is just as scientifically weighty as a contributor with relevant education. It is incorrect, and I will use a recent example to illustrate this my allegation: In the English article's Norwegian equivalent, Peter Wessel (they have actually not included his official name Tordenskiold/Tordenskjold, and this alone tells much about the conditions concerned), they had, until today, placed his name Tordenskiold/Tordenskjold inside quotation marks, «like this». They had placed an official and real name within quotation marks. Most Norwegians have ordinary names, like patronymica and names deriving from farm names, and they are therefore unfortunately unable to understand aristocratic names. It is too alien for them. They consider a name like Tordenskiold like some kind of fantasy name, almost like it were just for fun. That is also why they placed the name within quotation marks. Why could persons who place a name within quotation marks, possibly have any credible authority about orthographical principles related to this? You may say what you want about Big Norwegian, but the authors would never have written a person's official name within quotation marks.
2nd quote: Furthermore the assertion that your suggested move gives the article the subjects standard name is false.
Comment: This is a subjective allegation.
The basic principle in Norwegian, and probably also in the English language, is that names after the Middle Ages primarily shall follow their original orthography. Likewise as Norwegians write Løvenskiold (a family ennobled in the 1700s), one shall also write Tordenskiold (two families ennobled in the 1700s).
An aspect which many persons seem to ignore, is that Peter Tordenskiold, although being a popular hero from the early 1700s and to our days, actually was an individual person having the same rights as everyone. People tend to consider him only as public property just because that this man is historically famous. Peter Tordenskiold received the name form Tordenskiold and used the name form Tordenskiold. Ditto did other members of the family. This name form is recognised by the Dano-Norwegian state, and as far as I know, the state has not changed the name form after his death. In other words, the orthographical form Tordenskiold is juridically unchanged. It is status quo.
If my name were Per Hansson and I officially adopted Åslia as an extra name, making my name become Per Hansson Åslia, and people after my death began calling me only Per Hansson (without Åslia) or even Peder Hansen Aaslien (more fashionable orthography, with aa instead of å and with -en ending), I would not have approved it. People shall respect my name and the way that I have chosen to spell it. The same right has Peter Tordenskiold.
3rd quote: which i suppose Aaemn might consider non-farmers and worthy of note
Comment: You are not entitled to 'suppose' anything in this regard. Speculations remain subjective and contribute only to make the discussion messy. It is also irrelevant, as we are discussing whom is the scientifically most reliable, and not which socio-cultural class each of the discussion's participants has preferences or apathy for.
4th quote: It must also be noted that Store Norske unfortunately was disbanded as a professional encyclopedia due to lack of revenue
Comment: I cannot see how the ability of revenue is relevant for a family name of the XVIIIth century. It is most certain that the name is spelled Peter Wessel Tordenskiold in the printed books as well as in the online encyclopædia, regardless of the amount of income.
5th quote: A google search comes up with more hits for Tordenskjold than for Tordenskiold. Both if you count only the English hits and if you count all languages.
Comment: Quantity has never been a leading principle in the academical tradition. If the majority's opinion always were decesive, we would still be living in the Stone Age.
6th quote: To any wikipedians not familiar with the wider problem here the issue over using a modern spelling versus the old style is most of the time a proxy debate over the Norwegian language struggle.
Comment: Norway's lingual situation is irrelevant in this aspect. Tordenskiold is a family name, and not a common word. While one freely may discuss whether to spell the word hjelm as hielm, or for that sake as hjælm, the family name Hielm, which 16 Norwegians bear today, is solely a private matter. The same is Tordenskiold. Likewise, one cannot write the name of the family Knagenhjelm, which officially has changed the spelling from Knagenhielm and to Knagenhjelm, as Knagenhielm anno 2011. One shall respect both Peter Tordenskiold's choice anno 1716 and the Knagenhjelms' choice anno 2011.
If Peter Tordenskiold were alive today, he would probably have said: I spell it with an i.
7th quote: As we can see above here we have a specimen protesting what he percieves to be the agrarian spelling of this word.
Comment: I protest against that a family name shall be subjected to the majority's force, especially if this force is random and not based on consistency. If I adopt the name Gyldenkrantz, I demand that people shall respect this orthography both today and hundred years after my death. They may not call me Gyldenkrants because that they find the 's' to fit better into their time (or political agenda etc.) or because that they think that 's' looks better than 'z'. The same may Peter Tordenskiold expect. Instead, people use the form Tordenskjold, which for Peter Tordenskiold would have been so radical that he would have reacted against you likewise that he acted against the Swedes.
8th quote: The spelling and thus knowledge of the perceived higher class must be authorative over the lower even though that world no longer exists. A debate based on emotion rather than consensusbuilding is more than likely.
Comment: These sentences finish a text full of emotional allegations and subjective considerations.
I see that you are Norwegian, and that is not because of the given name with which you operate, but rather the following: that you here react with extreme sensitivity against my small and nearly casual use of the word farmer. You immediately place yourself in a position of defence, and your participation in the discussion is almost totally dominated by this factor. I recommend you to withdraw the quills, to forget that you ever saw the word farmer, and to attempt to discuss rationally. If not, a debate based on emotions rather than objectivity is more than likely.
Finally, I have some questions:
1st question: Which right do you have to decide how a private individual shall spell his name?
2nd question: What is your argument for that two contributors without relevant education are more scientifically weighty than one contributor with relevant education? Alternatively: What is your argument for that the majority automatically is correct?
3rd question: Do not the orthographical principles in Norwegian state that names after the Middle Ages shall be spelled with their original orthography?
4th question: If yes: What is your argument for that the name Tordenskiold shall be excepted from this principle, while the names of the families Løvenskiold and Werenskiold, which both were ennobled in the same century as Tordenskiold, shall not?
5th question: Does Big Norwegian's lack of revenue discredit their article Peter Wessel Tordenskiold? In that case: Why and concretely how?
6th question: Do you recognise the fact that the Norwegian government in 1716 granted, and never, anytime, has changed, the name form Tordenskiold?
7th question: If you demand the right to change the orthography that Peter Tordenskiold, a literate person, expliticly chose to use, do you accept that other persons may change your own name without your sanction or against your protests?
Here by the end of this my contribution, I would like to state that I recognise every human's, including my own, right to seek and to share information. Wikipedia is, as I mentioned above, an eminent concept, also in the aspect of democratical control over such sources. However, I will not automatically accept that two contributors without relevant education have scientifical precedence over a professional. If this in anyone's eyes makes me élitist or a reactionary, I may merely reject it.
--- Aaemn784 (talk) 21:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to provide the following documentation, which confirms the customs for orthographical standardisation as established by the Norwegian Language Council:

The Norwegian Language Council: Historical names - Rules

Quotation: «Norske navn etter 1700 skrives etter samtidsskrivemåten.»

Translation thereof: «Norwegian names after 1700 are written in accordance with the temporal spelling.»

The name Tordenskiold was granted in 1716 (first grant) and 1761 (second grant).

This documentation is intended solely to attest my allegations and not e.g. to surpass English Wikipedia's regulations. However, it is probably wise to follow the Language Council, which is among the supreme lingual authorities concering the Norwegian language.

--- Aaemn784 (talk) 13:37, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. Trodenskjold is the common modern name for this person. It doesn't really matter what scholars and official institutions, and especially not what Norwegian institutions, say as articles on the English Wikipedia are named after the common English name of the subject.TheFreeloader (talk) 14:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hi.
The common custom is unfortunately incorrect. According to Norwegian law, and even to the highly respected institutions which you reject, the man's name is still Tordenskiold. This is extensively described above.
--- Aaemn784 (talk) 18:44, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's not me who rejects them. It's Wikipedia's guidelines. Wikipedia uses common names, not "official names" for naming its articles. It doesn't really matter how highly respected institutions are, if they can change what is the most commonly used name for a subject, their opinions don't really matter when it comes to naming Wikipedia articles.TheFreeloader (talk) 09:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tordenskiold is not mentioned in the danish national anthem[edit]

Reading that Tordenskiold is mentioned in both the Danish and Norwegian anthem, I read the lyrics of the Danish anthem Der er et yndigt land and (both the modern, shorter, and original lyrics) and, as suspected, I found no trace of him there. I have therefor rewritten the sentence 'In Denmark as well as in Norway he is probably considered the most famous naval hero, and he is featured in the national anthems of both countries.' to 'In Denmark as well as in Norway he is probably considered the most famous naval hero.' If anyone finds that he is in fact mentioned in the Norwegian anthem, fell free to add it. FrederikHertzum (talk) 23:08, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are right about him not being mentioned in the Danish national anthem, Der er et yndigt land, but he is mentioned in the third stanza of the royal anthem, Kong Christian stod ved højen mast. Whether it's worth mentioning is another matter. Favonian (talk) 23:19, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. It should not involve big efforts quickly to get confirmed that Norway's national anthem includes Tordenskiold's name. He is mentioned in the third verse:

Tordenskiold langs kysten lynte

--- Aaemn784 (talk) 00:22, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tordenskiold not a typical aristocratic name[edit]

It is said above that: "Most Norwegians have ordinary names, like patronymica and names deriving from farm names, and they are therefore unfortunately unable to understand aristocratic names. It is too alien for them. They consider a name like Tordenskiold like some kind of fantasy name, almost like it were just for fun."

A quick reply: "Tordenskiold" is not a typical aristocratic name in Denmark or Norway. The most prominent/ancient aristocratic Danish/Norwegian families have names which are down to earth and often not very different from other names derived from agricultural properties. One's of Denmark-Norway's crème de la crème noble families is the Danish family Kaas, a family which has been part of the high nobility since time immemorial and with almost a millennium of recorded history. Similar names with the same meaning (e.g. Kaasa) were/are also quite common among ordinary peasants in Norway and their descendants. Pompous names like "Tordenskiold" are typical of the "letter nobility" of the more recent era (=18th century), often the nouveau riche, and always indicate that the family is not among the "real" nobility, or higher nobility, dating centuries back. The original/older noble families never have such names. Tordenskiold is indeed a kind of fantasy name, almost ridiculous in its pompousness, also compared to the names of most noble families. There is only a handful of families in Denmark/Norway with such names, all of them part of the "letter nobility" of the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sporrevig (talk • contribs) 00:34, 4 August 2011‎ (UTC)[reply]

Tordenskjold is a common name, Peter Tordenskjold is not[edit]

Tordenskjold is a common name referring to this person. However, people have always used Tordenskjold alone, and not his complete name, as a common name. Peter Tordenskjold or Peter Wessel Tordenskjold are thus not common names. The Wikipedia common name rule does not apply to the complete name.

Examples of common names are Bokken Lasson instead of Caroline Lasson, Wenche Foss instead of Eva Wenche Steenfeldt-Foss Stang, and Vinni instead of Øyvind Sauvik. Peter Tordenskiold's common name is Tordenskiold/Tordenskjold, regardless of the name's spelling. One is misusing the common name rule to discredit one of the two standard spellings of Peter Tordenskiold's common name. (A spelling that is not standard for Peter Tordenskiold is Tordenschiold.)

Conclusions:

(1) The article's name should be Peter Wessel Tordenskiold.
(2) The article's present introduction should be modified to this:

Peter Wessel Tordenskiold [...], popularly known as Tordenskjold [...], was [...]

I also desire sources confirming that Tordenskjold is much more used than Tordenskiold. It seems like the loud-voiced claims of every randomly arriving IP address are accepted as truth. — Breadbasket 08:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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External links modified[edit]

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Year of birth[edit]

1690 or 1691? Some of the cited sources (Gyldendals, Søfartshistorie) say the former, some (DBL, EB 1911) say the latter. Please reconcile the difference. Thank you. —howcheng {chat} 21:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Slavery[edit]

From A normal tourist map, "but everything is negative":

"Our national hero Tordenskiold operated as a slave-trader during the colonial era. Norway actively downplays this part of our history and has not provided any apologies or paid any reparations."

Danish slave trade does not mention Tordenskjold. Was he involved? --Error (talk) 11:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Historicity of “may we borrow some ammunition” incident.[edit]

This has all the hallmarks of myth. Are there any reliable English language sources, which address either the incident itself, or the growth of the story? Springnuts (talk) 16:40, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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