Talk:Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece

Plebiscite on abolition of the monarchy

Regarding the year in which this occurred: my understanding from my reading is that there was a first plebiscite in July 1973 held by the Colonels' junta, and then another in Dec 1974 held by Karamanlis' government. Both were on the question of abolishing the monarchy in favor of a republic. Both are referred to in the article, although for Dec 1974, the word referendum is used instead of plebiscite. I am changing the date given in the article for the first plebiscite back to 1973. LiniShu 04:25, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Title

Shouldn't this article be named "Pavlos de Grecia"? That is the name he comes by, right? The ", crown prince of Greece" suffix is neither used as a last name nor an nobility title, as there exist no nobitlity titles in Greece. Michalis Famelis 18:26, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

That is a valid question. As a past contributor to this article, though not responsible for the original naming, I, also, am interested to consider if it currently has the most appropriate name. I've done some checking again of the MOS. I found the following pages relevant to the naming of this article:

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) - see the section on "Nick names, pen names, stage names, cognomens" - a relevant phrase here is "[the name] most often used to refer to a certain person".

• Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Western nobility) states: "Most general rule overall: use the most common form of the name used in English."

• Guideline #7 under Monarchical titles: "Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title with the exception of those who are still alive and are most commonly referred to by a non-monarchial title; all former or deposed monarchs should revert to their previous monarchical title upon death." (Pavlos' father, Constantine, is actually cited as an example here).
• Guidline #5 under Other royalty addresses the use of the <Name>, Crown Prince of <state> form, as being appropriate usage (although it does not address the situation when the title is no longer recognized by the state.)
• Guideline #7 under Other royalty advises "Do not use 'surnames' in article names [of members of royal families]"

A conclusion that I draw is that it would not be incorrect to use either the name "Pavlos de Grecia" (his current legal name) or "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece" (remember, here, the intended "timeless" nature of Wikipedia; at one time during his life (the first 6 years) this was his rightful title even within Greece.) So, the question to ask for English Wikipedia is, which is most commonly used in English? One measure for common usage is Google hits, I found the following results:

• Prince Pavlos of Greece - 541 hits
• Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece - 397 hits
• Pavlos de Grecia - 7 hits (all in Spanish)
• Prince Pavlos of Greece and Denmark - 5 hits

Based on the far higher number of Google hits for either "Prince Pavlos of Greece", or "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece", than for "Pavlos de Grecia", at this time (2005), I would recommend keeping the current article title.

Granted, either keeping the article as "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece", or changing it to "Pavlos de Grecia" does carry a POV with it either way, so it does seem appropriate to name the article according to the most common usage, and to maintain NPOV by insuring that both POVs are addressed in the article.

--LiniShu 12:37, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Greece has abolished the monarchy since 1974 and there is no official "Prince" tittle. Please update the article as is inaccurate. 2A00:23C5:9B93:4901:8456:E73A:CF3F:390A (talk) 15:46, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Move

I really think this should have been put to a vote before being moved. As Pavlos was born in 1967, and the monarchy wasn't completely abolished until 1974, wouldn't he have been Crown Prince then, adn that is the title that most people know him as. Prsgoddess187 23:59, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Page restored to original location as it was moved without following requires requested move procedures and left complete chaos (broken links, talk page at one name, article at another name). I am astonished that so senior a user as Adam would have chosen to break every single rule on Wikipedia here; from the Manual of Style MCN rule to the Naming Conventions to the moving pages rules to the fixing of links. If an anonymous user had acted that way they could have received an instant final warning. But for the fact that it is Adam it would have been reported as vandalism. One can only presume that Adam was having a bad day. If however it is done again in the manner in which it was done it will be treated as vandalism and reported as such. Adam knows very well he cannot do that that way. One can but credit it with a 'moment of madness' which he hopefully has recovered from. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 00:45, 13 December 2005 (UTC)}

1973 or 1974

When did Constantine II cease to be King of the Hellenes: At the top of the article he's listed as King from 1964-73, yet later in the article the monarchy is declared abolished in 1974. Further more in the Constantine II of Greece article, Constantine is listed as King from 1964-74. From 1973-74 ,did or didn't Greece have a King? it can't be both ways, can it? GoodDay 22:36, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The Greek democracy when restored opted to accept the 1973 republic as having a de-facto existence and used its presidency, rather than automatically returning the King to the throne, until a referendum on the monarchy could be held. It was technically a questionable act: if the Regime of the Colonels was illegal, then so was its republic, meaning that the King was still king. But they feared that Constantine, who was a political numbskull, would meddle if he was allowed back. Even worse his presence might sway the vote in favour of the monarchy. So they kept him in exile illegally while they held the referendum and allowed the presidency to remain on in the interim. Constantine II was democratically deposed in 1974 but lost the throne in 1973. You could say that de facto he ceased to be king in 1973, even if de jure he was king until 1974. On balance, given that it matches reality, it makes more sense to say that he lost the throne in 1973 and had it legally confirmed in 1974. So 1973 is probably the best date to use. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 22:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, 1973 is probably the best date to use. GoodDay 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Wife's Title

It seems very odd that she would be styled "HRH Marie-Chantal, the Crown Princess Pavlos" ... shouldn't she be styled, as per typical royal form, "HRH The Crown Princess Pavlos" or "HRH The Crown Princess of Greece"? Mowens35 15:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe since the Greek monarchy has been deposed, calling her The Crown Princess (Pavlos) would seem to some a little misleading. As Pavlos was at one time The Crown Prince of Greece, this title for him is correct. On the Greek Royal Family's webpage (POV to be sure) she is titled "HRH Crown Princess Pavlos", see it here. But that is only my opinion, please do not take it for fact. Prsgoddess187 01:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Name

I moved this to Pavlos, but

This user is of Greek ancestry.

This user is interested in flags and emblems.

has moved it back to Paul. He is referred to as Pavlos on the royal family's own website, and I have rarely, if ever, seen him actually called Paul in English. My computer is not letting me use search engines (pretty sure I have some kind of spyware right now) so I cannot go look for myself, but I believe he's better known as Crown Prince Pavlos. His siblings are at the articles corresponding to their Greek titles. His father is only at Constantine because that is what he goes by, instead of the Greek Konstantinos. But Pavlos I have only ever seen referred to as Pavlos, not Paul. Morhange (talk) 10:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Any use of a royal title by a former monarchy is known as a "Pretender" title. To be allowed entrance into Greece all former royals must be acknowledged officially using a legal surname for entrance. Pavlos von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the former Prince of Greece's legal name. It's rediculous and incorrect to say King Charles of Britain and America as it is to say Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece. 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:1184:402D:8474:7E71 (talk) 05:30, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

That's obvious garbage. Constantine II died in Greece. His funeral was in Greece and his entire family attended. Pavlos lives in Greece now. They are obviously allowed to enter the country despite not using a surname. "Pavlos von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" is not his legal name. He is not called that on any official document, anywhere. DrKay (talk) 07:40, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

To second this, not that long ago, when Pavlos son graduated from a college in America, his certificate read "Achileas of Greece", not "Achileas von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg" or whatever other ridiculously long name is claimed to be the family's surname. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 10:05, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

KING OF GREECE

I would like to note the following: The title "KING OF GREECE" belongs to the descendants of King Otto - the Wittelsbachs. The current descendants of George I of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line of the House of Oldenburg have a right to the royal title of King of the Hellenes. They are NOT entitled to the royal title King of Greece, even if often referred to as such.81.132.186.249 (talk) 22:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

We believe you. GoodDay (talk) 00:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Greece is a Republic, Greece has not a Crown Prince

Pavlos is a pretender, is not a prince because Greece is a republic since 1974. Greece has not king, has not queen, has not princes and princesses and nobody could be Crown Prince of Greece. --84.120.9.13 (talk) 04:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Pavlos was born the Crown Prince of Greece, and this was the title he held when the monarchy was overthrown. Morhange (talk) 05:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

But this title die in 1974. You cannot be a prince from a Republic. Pavlos was crown Proince of Greece, but now is not a Prince. His children are not prince and princess too, but the english wikipedia is a monarchist wikipedia and don't respect Greece and the Republic of Greece, the sovereignety and the reality of the greek society. --Hinzel 03:15, 10 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hinzel (talk • contribs)

This title is lifelong. Only the Greek Goverment don't recognize this title. Peeperman (talk) 01:23, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

No other country formally recognizes this title. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 12:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Only the Greek Goverment don't recognize this title???? Any democratic country in the world recognize Pavlos like a King. Only the few monarchy families in the world. Not different to me or you :)--190.178.231.187 (talk) 05:35, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Deposed monarchs are allowed to bear the title they formerly used by courtesy in international usage, and the members of their families are allowed to bear the titles they used when the monarchy still existed. It doesn't matter that Greece is now a Republic. And yes, he is still a prince, despite the abolition of the monarchy. What he is not entitled to do is to style himself 'King' after his father's death.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:36, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

According to your rationale, his children didn't have the title before the referendum therefore cannot be named Princes, so please amend. Even more, his father is not a King, there is no agreement in place with the Greek government that they are allowed to bear the title and he cannot bear it if the Greek Republic does not accept it. He is not a Prince, as much as he might want to be called as such. 2A00:23C5:9B93:4901:8456:E73A:CF3F:390A (talk) 15:59, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

That's not true. Lifetime-only usage would imply that any children born subsequent to the abolition of a monarchy would bear no titles, which isn't the case (see Pavlos's own children), and that their own titles can't change. The reality is far more complex.

There is no consistency in how would-be monarchs are styled. Some claimants to a non-reigning throne do claim the title King, such as King Leka I of the Albanians, who was Crown Prince when his father was deposed. Leka I's son, also called Leka, styles himself as just Prince of Albania, not even Crown Prince, let alone King.

Margareta of Romania now uniquely uses the title "Custodian of the Romanian Crown" with the honorific prefix "Her Majesty" but not the title Queen. Not only does the world (excluding Romania, I presume) accept that the non-reigning Royal House can create these new titles and change the name of its House, it also changed the line of succession to the defunct throne, since Margareta wasn't even her father's heiress apparent under the Salic law of the monarchy while it was extant.

Not only that, multiple court cases in multiple countries have recognised that her supposedly illegitimate half-uncle, Carol Lambrino, was legitimate with full succession rights. His own son, Paul, who would be King if his branch of the family were restored to the throne, claims the title Prince, not Crown Prince, and is an anti-monarchist (go figure).

Now that his father has died, Crown Prince Pavlos can — and I'm not suggesting he will — indeed claim the title King. That's exactly what he would be in the event of monarchical restoration, and given that the Greek royals have never renounced their claims he can take what would be his rightful title. It's no different to governments-in-exile operating in parallel or "pretence" using all the usual, de jure titles also seen in its rival, de facto government. This is the case for disputed territories, such as the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. Vabadus91 (talk) 14:47, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move

From Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece to Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece. "Crown Prince Pavlos" is by far the most common way this individual is referred to with 171,000 Google hits, versus 958 for "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece". It is also the way his own office refers to him in press releases.[1] Putting the given name first is a reference book convention designed to allow names to be alphabetized more easily. This isn't an issue on Wiki, so we can follow the common usage as it is in ordinary text. "of Greece" is both a useful disambiguator and part of his long form style (Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece, Prince of Denmark). Kauffner (talk) 01:53, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose - Consistency matters. The title of this article certainly shouldn't be inconsistent with the titles of the articles about his cousins (Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark, Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden, Haakon, Crown Prince of Norway, Alois, Hereditary Prince of Liechtenstein, Guillaume, Hereditary Grand Duke of Luxembourg, etc) and his other peers. Surtsicna (talk) 10:46, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no consistency now. The other Greek princes and princess all have their titles first: Prince George of Greece and Denmark, Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark, Princess Maria-Olympia of Greece and Denmark. The cousins you list are from all different countries and it's just happenstance if their titles appear in matching form -- they don't constitute a peer group. The other heir apparents have widely differing styles. Kauffner (talk) 13:34, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Prince George of Greece and Denmark does not have a substantive title. Pavlos does have a substantive title. The consensus is to put substantive titles after the name. See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). Per naming conventions and consistency, Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece is the right title. Surtsicna (talk) 14:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose per Surtsicna and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles). - dwc lr (talk) 15:32, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the article should be moved to Paul, Crown Prince of Greece. GoodDay (talk) 15:46, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I have no opinion about the move as presented, but I strongly oppose translating the name of living people, or even any 20th & 21st century person. People have legal names nowadays and it is not appropriate (or polite) to translate them. This man's name is Pavlos and can never be given correctly as Paul. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:59, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose Per Surtsnica. Seven Letters 04:02, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Two problems with this article

1. The long section in the introduction about his relationship to Queen Victoria strikes me as trivial and very Anglocentric. I am moving it to the section "Ancestry" for now.

2. A huge percentage of this article deals with things that are quite well dealt with and more properly dealt with in the entry on his father. While there is no doubt that the sequences of events that led to the abolition of monarchy in Greece are relevant to his life, there is too much of it. This reader was left scratching his head wondering if I had accidentally gone to the wrong tab in my browser. For the moment, I won't do anything about that, to see if there are varying opinions or ideas about how we might better handle this.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 00:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Having received no objection, I am now going to remove most of the material that doesn't directly pertain to Prince Pavlos, being an accounting of the events that led to his father being removed as monarch.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Titles and styles

A "Titles and styles" section is common with many articles about royalty. It is useful when there is official use and that official use is generally recognised. However, in the case of Pavlos, there is significant inconsistency in usage (by the Greek republic, by other royal courts, by newspapers, etc.) The section provides three versions of his name/title after 1973, but this does not include the name he used when he was in college in the United States. I suggest that the section be removed. Noel S McFerran (talk) 03:34, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I am sure he use the title: His Royal Highness Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece, Prince of Denmark. (KingOscarXIX (talk) 17:27, 31 July 2015 (UTC))

Article title

It should be moved to Paul, Crown Prince of Greece, since his grandfather was Paul of Greece. -- GoodDay (talk) 20:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

He is known as Pavlos even in English, unlike his grandfather. - dwc lr (talk) 20:43, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Since Greece doesn't have a throne, he's not the Crown Prince at all. He may style himself as such, or be regarded as such by some people, but we mustn't present claims as facts.--Scott Mac 20:49, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I doubt moving this article to Paul Glucksburg, would be successful. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

The family does not have a surname. He was on the guestlist at the Duke of Cambridge's wedding the other week as Crown Prince of Greece, that is his title and what he is known as. - dwc lr (talk) 20:54, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course that's what his name was on the guestlist. The British monarchy doesn't want to alienate their cousins. GoodDay (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Actually not. That's what the British Royal family (and no doubt many others) call him. Other people (including the Greek state) don't recognise that title. Hence his citizen name in Greece.--Scott Mac 20:57, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

We need an overhaul of NCROY, concerning former royal families. GoodDay (talk) 20:58, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

It does a very good job of ensuring a NPOV. Thanks to it we have Leka, Crown Prince of Albania even though he uses the title King of the Albanians, and not Leka Zogu. - dwc lr (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

He is not a Greek citizen (at least that was the case) as the family refuse to take a surname. - dwc lr (talk) 21:00, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, since he was born while the monarchy was still extant, he really held the title of Crown Prince, and it was recognized in Greece until 1973. He is therefore a "former Crown Prince" like his father is a "former King". Styling him "Crown Prince of Greece" is therefore not inaccurate, as long as the Greek throne's present status is made clear. Constantine ✍ 21:03, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Pavlos von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg is the former Prince of Greece's legal name with his his only legitimate royal title style being Prince of Denmark. Greece abolished the royal title just as America (U.S.A.) abolished British royal titles. 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:1184:402D:8474:7E71 (talk) 05:39, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Crown Prince of Greece is part of his common name. That's what people call him. Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Agree 100% with the current title of the article. He is known as crown prince pavlos so that is what WP should retain. WP is not about compliance with the greek governement policies or any particular national policies. --193.239.221.248 (talk) 09:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

The title should be Pavlos, former Crown Prince of Greece. According to the royal Greek family website "The correct form of address is: King Constantine, former King of the Hellenes and so on for the family members. This ensues from the Treaty of Vienna, 1815, whereby titles are maintained for life, even when the status ceases to be active."

Currently the only state that recognised Pavlos as the Crown Prince of Greece is Denmark, so in the remaining states Pavlos is only His Royal Highness Pavlos of Greece so I therefore edit the title and quit crown Prince. And let me say something, if you said that the titles stay even if the monarchy is abolished, why Victor Manuel of Saboya is not recognised as Crown Prince of Italy, because during 33 days in 1946, he was the Crown Prince, so there is no reason to maintain the title of Pavlos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.15.222.102 (talk) 23:08, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

King Charles is also King of America, I think not. The last King to rule America was King George III.

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:1184:402D:8474:7E71 (talk) 05:51, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

References

I agree, the reliable sources above are clear and obvious- this is their name. Joseph2302 (talk) 16:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The Greek government is the official source. They do NOT recognise his title because they do NOT have a monarchy. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 17:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The Greek government's recognition or lack thereof is not the only source of information that is relevant here. Others still use the title. 331dot (talk) 17:09, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

"The correct form of address is: King Constantine, former King of the Hellenes and so on for the family members. This ensues from the Treaty of Vienna, 1815, whereby titles are maintained for life, even when the status ceases to be active.

The Council of the State (no. 4575/1996), decreed that the title is definitive of the person and not a title of nobility." [2]- makes it clear what the legal position of their titles are. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I've fully protected the article for 2 days to allow discussion to take place without edit warring. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:48, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The Treaty of Vienna 1815 is not part of any current obligatory legislation. According to current Greek law they are not monarchs - simple as that ! --Dr John Peterson (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

No they aren't monarchs, but they still hold their monarchy titles, because as mentioned above, the titles hold for life. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

King William of England was not King of America after his father, King George III was abolished after the American Revolutionary War just as former Prince Pavlos of Greece is not King of Greece after his father Constantine, former King of the Hellas had his title abolished by the Greeks in 1974.

reference:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolutionary_War

Reference:

https://royalpedia.fandom.com/de/wiki/Pavlos_von_Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gl%C3%BCcksburg 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:1184:402D:8474:7E71 (talk) 06:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The Treaty of Vienna is NOT part of any current legislation and did not even concern Greek titles. Greece did not even exist then. Legally we do not have to comply with it by any means. It proves the futility of discussing anything on talk pages when somebody acts as if we have to do precisely whatever the Treaty of Vienna says solely in order to feel as if they have been right, even when they are so obviously wrong. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 19:36, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Please provide reliable sources for your claims, you're view seems to be based upon "I'm Greek, and this is what I say, and if you disagree then I'm going to attack you as a pro-monarchist" (which was an exact argument you used at WP:AN3). 20:57, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not Greek. It is well established fact that Greece does NOT have a monarchy. Check Wikipedia if you din't know that ! Indulging the former Greek monarchy's delusions is the only reason why they would still be called "crown prince" and the like. It's so stupid it's ridiculous. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 21:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh okay, you said "we", so I assumed it meant you were Greek- my apologies. I know Wikipedia doesn't have a monarchy anymore, but the source above suggests they keep their titles forever, and sources I looked at seems to be 50/50 calling him Crown Prince and not. I personally think the best way to get as many people as possible involved would be to suggest a move, and see what other people think. Would you be okay with this? If you're okay with it, I'll make a protected-edit request for the discussion to start. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:40, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm already tired of discussing this nonsense. It is a blunt and indisputable fact that the former Greek monarchy are no longer kings, queens, crown princes or anything else. They just like to think they are. This article is just indulging their delusion. However, even if their delusions are no longer indulged in the article, in a few months from now there will undoubtedly be some crackpot monarchists who will add all their delusional royal titles again when nobody is paying any attention. I have even seen entire articles be reversed to how they were seven years earlier without anyone noticing. Such is the erratic and inconsistent way of Wikipedia. So do as you please. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 21:48, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll do it then, and hopefully this will end this discussion forever. Seems like many people have argued for about 2 comments about this for years. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

well we know you are a crackpot republican butt remeber he is a rpince of denmark also 1963 wasnt legal 1974 (199.231.180.131 (talk) 17:39, 2 September 2015 (UTC))

Protected edit request

Can an admin instigate a requested move from Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece to Pavlos of Greece- I can't put the template on the page. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think you need to edit the article for this. Just follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves#Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves. Regards — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:10, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, got this confused with a merge/split, which does require the article to be tagged. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:42, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Move request

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. DrKay (talk) 08:50, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

---

Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece → Pavlos of Greece – Per the discussion above, there are arguments that he is no longer entitled to the title of "Crown Prince". Joseph2302 (talk) 21:42, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

• There is also the argument that he does use the title and that the title is used to refer to him. Which government recognizes Queen Latifah as a queen? And why is nobody campaigning to strip Emperor Norton of his title? We refer to people the way sources refer to them, not the way governments prescribe. Surtsicna (talk) 21:51, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, did a Google search for reliable sources, and [3], [4], [5] refer to them as "Crown Prince". Failed to find reliable sources in English calling them Pavlos, not Crown Prince. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:55, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Logic and facts didn't last long ! Queen Latifah is only a stage name. She does not use the title to make a claim to be head of state of Greece ! There are former monarchs, in their delusions, who still act as if they are head of state. There is no reason why their wishful thinking should be indulged. There is no reason why "Emperor Norton" should be referred to as such. That article title should be changed as well. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 22:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, there is something terribly wrong about the title of a featured article and it needs changing asap. Ha ha, good luck.

But, just for fun, let's go with your argument. So, does Pavlos claim to be "head of state of Greece" or is it Constantine who does that? And how exactly do they do that? Does Princess Marie of Denmark claim to be head of state of Denmark? Does King Juan Carlos of Spain claim to be head of state of Spain? Surtsicna (talk) 22:46, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Denmark and Spain are irrelevant. There is still an official monarchy in Denmark and Spain. Their monarchs are officially heads of state. The Greek monarchy, however, was abolished log ago. It has no legal validity. Yet, Pavlos still claims to be "crown prince" (to become King) in a country that has no King or monarchy. It's pure delusion. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 23:13, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

And don't suggest changing the title of the "King Kong" article. King Kong never claimed to be a head of state ! --Dr John Peterson (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose, for better or worse royalty titles are treated as courtesy titles for life, and common usage seems to include the title. I'd also like to remark that the proposed target is already occupied, by someone who actually was the head of state of Greece... Constantine ✍ 13:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Royalty titles are NOT treated as "courtesy titles" for life. Only extreme minarchists carry on trying to make out they are monarchs when they obviously no longer are. The proposed target is NOT already occupied. That's two false claims you have made.--Dr John Peterson (talk) 14:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Can you please calm down? And can you please check where Pavlos of Greece redirects to before accusing people? King Paul is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name. Constantine ✍ 14:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm very calm and there is nothing to indicate otherwise. So don't start making bogus allegations in order to distract attention. Paul and Pavlos are two different words. There is no reason why this article should be redirected to anything but Pavlos instead of Paul. Pavlos is not known as Paul as the previous king was. Pavlos has never been a King. Paul of Greece was King until his death. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 16:12, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I hope you know that on the web, when you write with capitals, it is the equivalent of shouting... And your tone, frankly, seems to support this, what with "false claims", "bogus allegations to distract attention", etc. Furthermore, do not presume to know my mind or my intentions, sir, and kindly implement the advice on WP:AGF, especially with people you have never met before. "Pavlos", as the phonetic rendering of "Paul" in Greek, is equally valid for the king as for his grandson. There is a reason the redirect exists. Furthermore, the form "X of [country] Y" usually refers to a ruler of country Y, not a crown prince, heir apparent or anything of the sort who never ruled. So, your arguments on the validity of his title aside, the target of this request is not the best of ideas either way. Constantine ✍ 20:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

More bogus allegations from you because of the obviously false claims you have pointed out. Claiming that writing only one word in capitals is "shouting" is such ridiculous deceit. Your personal attacks are a sure sign that you have no confidence in what you have written. You have been trying claims that are either completely irrelevant or completely false. So you have resorted to abuse to try to distract attention from your false and irrational contentions. My guess is that you are a Greek monarchist who is trying to misrepresent the facts to fit them in with your Greek monarchist views. They certainly don't stand up to any scrutiny. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 21:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

If you had taken the moment to consider my advice on presuming things about people you know nothing about you would not have me rolling in laughter now, so thanks for that, I guess. I've been accused of being a Turkish agent, a Greek agent, a German agent, a communist, and a crypto-communist, but a monarchist is definitely a first. Now I'll go collect my pay from His Majesty the King. Ψωμί, ελιά, και Κώτσο βασιλιά! :) Constantine ✍ 21:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

"Rolling in laughter" - what ridiculous a liar ! The Greek monarchy has been abolished. Get over it ! --Dr John Peterson (talk) 06:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Cplakidas: Apparently I'm also a monarchist, despite the fact I think monarchies are a waste of space. Basically if you don't agree with them, you get accused of being clueless/biased on the subject. Note how no-one actually agrees with their view, because reliable sources- which is what Wikipedia actually bases itself on- don't support their claims. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Move to Prince Pavlos of Greece for now - Although monarchy has been abolished and no longer rules the country, this guy is the Crown Prince of the former royal family. I stumbled upon the "Princess Margareta of Romania" article; consistency should apply. George Ho (talk) 01:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Pinging @Surtsicna, Joseph2302, Cplakidas, and Dr John Peterson: for response. George Ho (talk) 01:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm happy with that, as long as it keeps the word "Prince", like all the reliable sources use. Before John Peterson gives me another lecture about how the monarchy doesn't exist, I know it doesn't exist! But Wikipedia uses reliable sources, not self-stated facts, and they all still refer to him as a Prince. Joseph2302 (talk) 01:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Changing to 'Oppose per below. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Changing to oppose per FactStraight. Of course, next time propose "Prince Pavlos of Greece". --George Ho (talk) 05:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Interesting to hear what some folk would prefer he be called and not called, but that isn't the basis of article naming on English Wikipedia, which strives to facilitate ease of use for readers. Per NCRAN, and consistent with usage on members of deposed dynasties (e.g. Wilhelm, German Crown Prince, Rupert, Crown Prince of Bavaria and Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia). Pavlos has been most widely known as and written about since his birth as Crown Prince of Greece, and is only inconsistently known as anything else. Moreover, in prevalent English Wikipedia usage, Pavlos of Greece, like Beatrix of the Netherlands or Baudouin of Belgium, rather sounds as if he has actually reigned as king. FactStraight (talk) 03:07, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• I agree, Wikipedia uses reliable sources, and almost all English reliable sources call him the Crown Prince of Greece. Even if the title no longer exists, it's what the sources say, and that's what matters. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree. What is common or conventional is not better than what is true and factual. To describe him as a "crown prince" misleads people in to thinking that he has legal rights to the Greek throne instead of being delusional, which is what he is. --Dr John Peterson (talk) 11:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I have no opinion on this move, but I do think that the lede is insufficiently explicit at the moment that Pavlos is not actually a Crown Prince. (e.g. Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon immediately makes clear that he is not really Emperor of France.) Needs a "deposed" in there next to Constantine II perhaps, or possibly "pretender" (but that might not be accurate if the Greek monarchy isn't actually campaigning to be brought back, of course). SnowFire (talk) 01:36, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Because most English-language publications refer to him as Crown Prince, in accordance with standard journalistic usage, this makes Pavlos "delusional" -- how? Are you aware that Pavlos' father formally recognized the existence and legitimacy of the Greek republic -- and their family no longer makes any claim to restoration of the monarchy as a right? Are you aware that, thanks to the magic of links, Wikipedia long ago made the determination to give biographical articles the name most commonly used for the subject in reputable sources (that's why, e.g., the 42nd President of the U.S. article is named Bill Clinton instead of "William Jefferson Clinton"), exceptions being agreed upon by category, as at NCRAN? The intent is to maximize readers' ease in locating bios using the name with which they are most familiar. The assumption is that once the article is located and read, the correct and relevant facts are made available. This move request looks more and more like a case of I just don't like it. FactStraight (talk) 03:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• @FactStraight: Actually it was me who started the move request, because I wanted a discussion about it. Although I agree the whole argument for this move is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:45, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Royal titles, except genuine ones like mine, are ridiculous. --Archduke Ferdinand III of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (talk) 12:55, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Struck all sock comments, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Snackbag/Archive. Joseph2302 (talk) 18:42, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

---

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Honours

The Honours section was completely unsourced. The citations lead to photos. The editor who added these probably suggests that since Pavlos is wearing the insignias he has been awarded the honours. That is an interpretation. In fact at least the Order of the Phoenix and the Order of the Redeemer are still honours awared by the President of the Hellenic Republic and not from the ex-King. I have removed the section. If it is to be added again, three should be a real citation for each honour. - geraki ^(talk) 11:59, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

"Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Gluecksburg. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Regards, SONIC678 04:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

"Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Paul of of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glucksburg. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Regards, SONIC678 14:40, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

He is not a prince

Monarchy was abolished. He is a cos-player at best. 79.129.145.18 (talk) 20:43, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Understood, but "crown prince of Greece" was the highest title he ever held. Thus the reason we had it in the intro, let alone why this article is the name it is. Otherwise, the page would be called Pavlos Glücksburg or Paul Glucksburg. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Irrelevant. The Greek constitution (Article 6, Paragraph 7) clearly states that no royal titles are to be given to any persons in the Greek state. The article's title is clearly biased in favor of the monarchy. The Greek article references this person as "Former Successor", so why not import this standard? 45.139.213.31 (talk) 11:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

No titles were given to Pavlos since that line was written. Pavlos was born prior to the change in law, so he already had the title. Piratesswoop (talk) 01:45, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 September 2022

Change title "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece" to "Pavlos, Ex-Crown Prince of Greece" Bdboy15 (talk) 15:18, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. DrKay (talk) 15:20, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I disagree ... until today Pavlos WAS Crown Prince of Greece - Royals are allowed to keep and use their titles even if their realms no longer exist. From today I would argue he is KING Paul II of the Hellenes. Rhyddfrydol2 (talk) 18:42, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Oppose. Deposed royals retain their titles in perpetuity, just as Obama will always be "President Obama" and addressed as "Mr President" long after leaving office. If Pavlos ceased to be Crown Prince, it would've been at the point the monarchy was abolished, not the death of his father.

The page should be moved only if Pavlos claims another title, such as King. We don't know yet whether he will. Would-be monarchs descending from deposed ancestors vary in what titles they claim. Alexander, who would be King of Serbia, is "HRH Crown Prince Alexander"; Leka, who would've been King of Albania, was "HM King Leka I"; Margareta, who would be Queen of Romania, is "HM The Custodian of the Romanian Crown".--Vabadus91 (talk) 23:41, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

He's no longer crown prince of Greece, or anything & hasn't been since 1973. But it is the highest title he's ever held & therefore its inclusion in the infobox, content, not to mention the article title, is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Greece has no Royal Family

It is not very nice to address them as princes of Greece since gmGreece has no longer a king. 2A02:1388:8D:F863:0:0:5523:AE8C (talk) 17:44, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

well now that King Constantine II has died, Pavlos is now (de jure) King Paul II of Greece Rhyddfrydol2 (talk) 18:40, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

He is not the de jure King. That implies that the abolition of the monarchy was unlawful. Not even the Royal Family claims this. Pavlos can use the title Crown Prince as a courtesy until his death, or he can claim the title King as a pretender, but that doesn't make him the de jure monarch. The President of the Republic of Greece is both the de jure and de facto Head of State.--Vabadus91 (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

The page hasn't been (and won't be) moved to Paul II of Greece, so there's little to worry about. GoodDay (talk) 00:18, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Fine, he's the titular King of the Hellenes, with the regnal name in pretence, Paul II. Titular meaning that he would be king if the monarchy were to be restored. GandalfXLD (talk) 09:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

He is not King of anything, his title will remain Crown Prince of Greece for the rest of his life (unless the monarchy in Greece were to be restored). Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:52, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

He is the titular King of the Hellenes. GandalfXLD (talk) 09:02, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Not until he claims that title. Leka never reigned in Albania but he claimed the title "HM King Leka II" in pretence; Alexander hasn't reigned in Serbia but he claims the title "HRH Crown Prince Alexander"; Margareta has never reigned in Romania (and wasn't even the heiress presumptive under the House laws in force when the monarchy was extant) but she is "HM Margareta, Custodian of the Romanian Crown". There is no consistency in how non-reigning royals are styled, and there seems to be a general acceptance that they are whatever they style themselves (e.g. Margareta, who uses a unique and hitherto non-existent "title"). Pavlos is not the titular King until he calls himself "King Pavlos II of the Hellenes", which he is entitled to do and could theoretically be crowned as such by the monarchist Orthodox Church. There is no indication that he is now styling himself thus. 79.71.87.243 (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

"Head of the Royal House of Greece"

Is this correct? There is no such house as the "Royal House of Greece"; it's the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The House of Glücksburg has a Head in Christoph, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein. To my knowledge, the Greek part of the family/royal house has never had a separate name or branch. It's just part of the House of Glücksburg, and its head is not Crown Prince Pavlos. Vabadus91 (talk) 23:31, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps Wikipedia needs to address how to deal with former royal families. GoodDay (talk) 00:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

TWO things. The titles as prince and princesses of Greece are destinct to this house, and is not shared with other branches of the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg line, and it is the head of the house that decides how to deal with these titles. Secondly, here at Wikipedia we tend to write, what the sources tells us, and not what we each as individuals thinks would be the "best" way to interpret the world, so if one or more independent and reliable sources tells us, that Crown Prince Pavlos now is head of the royal house of Greece, and it dosen't matter whether they actually rule a country or not they are still a 'royal house', then that is what he is - the head of the house. Additionally your statement "There is no such house as "The Royal House of Greece"" is only backed by your other statement "To my knowledge" and is not supported by any relevant sources. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:45, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

How can I support the non-existence of something with sources? Negatives cannot be proven; they just "aren't". I cannot prove Boris Johnson does not claim to be the Grand Duke of Cumbria, but we deduce this to be true based on the lack of him claiming such a thing. We go on what we do know, namely: (i) that the Greek Royal Family belongs to the House of Glücksburg and (ii) that the Head of the House of Glücksburg is Christoph, Prince of Schleswig-Holstein, not Crown Prince Pavlos. You need to prove a positive, namely that there is such a thing as the "Royal House of Greece". I can find no proof of this. Vabadus91 (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

A reference of him being the new head of the royal family of Greece was added to this article 15 January 2023 04:08. I intended to add a reference on the same matter in English as well, but the Best reference in English I found at the time was from one of those source that Wikipedia dosen't wish we should use in this encyclopedia. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 00:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Time to look at another move?

He is not "Crown Prince of Greece" ever since his father was dethroned. Why do we call min that, not former... ? I suggest Pavlos of Denmark, where there is still an actual royal family. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 00:48, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. "Crown Prince" as a title was abolished along with the monarchy in 1974. The Greek Constitution prohibits aristocratic titles. He therefore cannot be 'Crown Prince of Greece', even if he once was 'Crown Prince of Greece'. Titles do not exist in their own right: they are granted by states and recognize an institutional position within a state. By the same logic, deposed despots and resigned monarchs are no longer referred to by their former titles. --Oldak Quill 13:46, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

The Greek monarchy was abolished on June 1, 1973. GoodDay (talk) 07:17, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Deposed monarchs *are* referred to by their former title as a form of international courtesy for their lifetime:

This is the case of the former Kings Simeon II of Bulgaria, and Gyanendra of Nepal, and also the late Michael I of Romania, Peter II of Yugoslavia, Umberto II of Italy, Zog I of Albania, Zahir Shah of Afghanistan, and many other examples, all of whom continued to use the title they used when reigning. It's international courtesy, nothing more.

All this is is a form of Courtesy title that also applies to the Heir Apparent and the title they held while the monarchy was still existent.

This is also the case with Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, Ahmad Shah, Crown Prince of Afghanistan, Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples, and Paras, Crown Prince of Nepal, all of whom continue to bear the title they held when they actually were Crown Prince. Again, as a form of courtesy title.

It's just a social thing: what they're referred to for example when invited to the weddings of other royal families (reigning or deposed), and has absolutely nothing to do with whether the country in question is a republic.

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 23:59, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. As a matter of international law and courtesy, titles are retained in perpetuity, even when the status of the titles is inactive, as in deposed monarchies, unless they are renounced or abdicated. Dethronement can happen unconstitutionally and unlawfully, and the use of titles is a continuation of the royal claim to de jure sovereignty. Royal status never dies. That is why Camilla as Duchess of Cornwall curtsied to King Constantine of the Hellenes — because he was of superior royal status despite having lost his throne.

Although there are some unique aspects to this as far as royalty and nobility are concerned, it isn't the only sphere in which titles are retained. Barack Obama, for the rest of his life, will be "President Obama" and "Mr President", despite long ago having left office. The late Benedict XVI was still "Pope Benedict" after his retirement.

Pavlos is well within his rights to claim and use the title King of the Hellenes, having succeeded to his father's titles and claims, although he might choose to keep his current title, which many pretenders to non-reigning thrones do.

I'm not even convinced that Greece can argue that he doesn't bear that title, actually, because the Greek law banning noble and royal titles applies only to Greek citizens. Pavlos is not a Greek citizen, so he could well advance the view that even in Greece he is accepted as holding the title, just as the Republic accepts and recognises Charles as being King Charles III when on Greek soil.

We go by the highest title held. I would suggest page moves for those born after their country's having abolished the monarchy. GoodDay (talk) 08:29, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

That is like saying King Charles III is King of America when he visits the states. If hisyory is correct the 13 colonies abolished King George III as the ruling monarch of America just as the Greeks abolished Constantine as their King. The former King of the Hellas had to renounce his title in using a surname (as do all former Greek royals) to enter Greece.

https://greekcitytimes.com/2023/01/11/former-king-constantine-tatoi/ 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:A9E1:7748:AC52:4D25 (talk) 19:01, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources - what reliable sources?

Apologists for the naming of this article as “Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece”, tell us that in accordance with WP policy, we have to use the naming convention adopted by reliable sources. So where, pray, are these reliable sources? The first two pages of Google results after googling "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece" (with the quotation marks) only contain one link that I would regard as a RS, and that is the Daily Mail, a borderline RS at best.

And as for the “they are entitled to continue their use of their titles” line, even the official family website www.greekroyalfamily.gr has not employed the moniker “of Greece” since 2012 at least. Constantine is described as “King Constantine” without the phrase “of Greece”, Pavlos is plain “Prince Pavlos”, Marie-Chantel is simply “Princess Marie-Chantal”; the equivalent is also true in the Greek version of the site. (Strangely, at the time of writing, the site does not mention the death of Constantine.) Incidentally, Constantine described himself at the time of his coronation as Βασιλεύς των Ελλήνων or King of the Hellenes, not King of Greece.

I think it is incumbent on those who wish to retain the use of the article title “Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece“, to provide reliable sources that describe him with those words. Failing that, I agree with those editors who propose that the death of Constantine presents an opportunity to move the article to something less contentious.StefanosPavlos (talk) 20:04, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Total disrespect of the Greek people will.

The Greek people through a plebiscite abolished monarchy since 1974. There are no princes in Greece, so why wikipedia keeps referring to him like that? why doesn't wikipedia respect the will of the Greek people? 79.167.179.167 (talk) 12:48, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

There are there crown princes left in Europe originating from countries that now either dosen't exist any more or where the country abolished the monarchy during the lifetime of the crown prince in question. They are The Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, The Crown Prince of Italy and The Crown Prince of Greece in addition to this, there are three former crown princes in Asia. What these former crown princes have in common is, that they got their titles while their fathers still where rulers of their respective countries. They hold these titles as personal titles (not indicating that they have in fact any legal rights in the former kingdom of theirs) and can do so as a courtesy of the international community thanks to an agreement from 1815. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 15:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Am i violating international agreements by not accepting pavlos being called a crown prince? 79.167.179.167 (talk) 17:34, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

No, you are not, but your personal preferences has little or nothing to do with the way we administrer the content of an internet encyclopedia like this. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 20:20, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2023

AlexMargrita (talk) 14:10, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

PAVLOS IS NOT CROWN PRINCE OF GREECE.THE CONTITUTION OF GREECE IS A PARLIAMENTARY REPUBLIC WITH NO KING OR ANY SUCCESSOR. EX KING WAS EXCILED AND NOR HIM OR HIS CHILDREN HAVE A LEGAL RIGHT TO BE CALLED CROWN PRINCE OR PRINCESS OF GREECE SINCE THERE IS NOT A KINGDOM (They don’t even have a greek nationality anymore ). AFTER THE 1974 Greek republic referendum THE CONSTITUTION OF GREECE IS REBUBLIC. THEREFORE the title Crown PRINCE OF GREECE IS WRONG AND MUST BE IMMEDIATELY REMOVED.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 15:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

how more clear could one be? there's no king/prince/princess/whatever nobility title could one think of in Greece. No matter how people from countries that still have monarchy (especially uk) call him, he is not a crown prince of greece, no such thing exists. 79.167.179.167 (talk) 15:56, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Nonetheless, they still used them.

Note this isn't even unique to Greece: the Italian constitution abolished all royal titles, but both King Umberto II of Italy and his son Vittorio Emanuelle, Prince of Naples continued to use their titles in exile after the abolition of the Italian monarchy. Likewise, the German constitution of 1919 and all subsequent constitutions don't recognise royal or noble titles either (the Royal and noble predicates simply become part of the surname), yet Wilhelm II of Germany and his son Wilhelm, German Crown Prince used those titles in exile.

Would wikipedia dare to have an article about the crown prince of france?

if not, why is there an article about the crown prince of greece? 79.167.179.167 (talk) 14:28, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

There are not one but three pretenders to the French throne, neither of whom has been born with the title "Crown Prince". Oleryhlolsson (talk) 15:07, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

so, pavlos was born with the title "Crown prince" but not the french ones? well, let me inform you, that the greek constitution doesn't recognize nobility titles, so there's no such thing as crown prince. In essence, he's an ex-prince, like his father was an ex-king. Too bad we didn't decapitate them, like the french did, because now we wouldn't be having this shameful discussion. 79.167.179.167 (talk) 15:40, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

This is not an article about the constitution of Greece, this is an article about an individual (and his titles). Furthermore this is not a Greek encyclopedia but a General encyclopedia (in English). Oleryhlolsson (talk) 15:51, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

And so, because UK still has monarchy this should be reflected on Wikipedia? Show some respect for the will of the Greek people/plebs. 79.167.179.167 (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Pavlos and his siblings are FORMER Princes and Princesses of Greece. You can say Pretender Prince Pavlos of Greece or Former Prince of Greece but it is incorrect to style him a title of Prince of Greece or Crown Prince of Greece when no such titles exists! It's like saying Prince William is Prince William of America, but that is impossible as the American colonies abolished theBritish monarchy (King George III) back in 1776 and gained independence from monarchial rule just as did the citizens of Greece. 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:A9E1:7748:AC52:4D25 (talk) 19:11, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

"as the American colonies abolished theBritish monarchy" The American rebels had no such authority and the British monarchy was never abolished. I would consider it likelier to survive the 21st century than the United States. Dimadick (talk) 16:43, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Ah yes, because the UK is the only English-speaking country on the planet, and there aren't any other much more populous English-speaking countries that are also republics.

You know, like the United States, India, South Africa...JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:43, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes, Wikipedia does have articles on the claimants to the defunct French throne: Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon, Jean, Count of Paris, and Louis Alphonse de Bourbon. As stated by Oleryhlolsson, this article is regarding an individual and not a constitution of a nation. Pavlos was, by birth, a Crown Prince. The monarchy was abolished, but this title is what he is best known for. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 16:07, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

There are no birth rights, it's utterly nonsense as an argument that he was "by birth, a Crown Prince". 79.167.179.167 (talk) 17:28, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

We have several articles on crown princes of France, including Louis Joseph, Dauphin of France, Louis, Dauphin of France (1729–1765), Louis, Grand Dauphin, and Charles Orlando, Dauphin of France. Just because they are no longer dauphins of France doesn't mean that we whitewash history and pretend it never happened. Your argument makes no sense. He was born Crown Prince. He was Crown Prince. These are indisputable facts. DrKay (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

He was the Crown Prince, but no longer is.

Isn't that the case where the word "ex" is used? He used to be a Crown Prince, so now, he is an ex-Crown Prince of Greece, no? 79.167.179.167 (talk) 18:57, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

He is so to speak both. In a Greek legal sence he is ex-crown prince (former crown prince is perhaps more apropriate?) but in a personal and general (encyclopedic) sence he is crown prince. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

By international convention,when a monarch is deposed, they retain the title they used as monarch for their lifetime.

This wasn't just the case for the former King Constantine II of the Hellenes, but also Simeon II of Bulgaria, Michael I of Romania, Peter II of Yugoslavia, and Umberto II of Italy, Zahir Shah of Afghanistan, King Gyanendra of Nepal, and Zog I of Albania amongst others, all of who used the titles they had used when reigning as a sort of courtesy title. It doesn't imply that they are still reigning.

Likewise, when a Crown Prince (or other similarly titled Heir Apparent) who has been heir while the monarchy still existed will *also* continue to bear the title they bore while the monarchy was still existent.

This is not only the case for the former Crown Prince Pavlos, but also Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, Wilhelm, German Crown Prince< Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples, Crown Prince Paras of Nepal, Reza Shah Pahlavi, Crown Prince of Iran, and Crown Prince Ahmad Shah of Afghanistan.

Of the above; the Nepalese, Yugoslavian, Italian, Iranian and Afghani Crown Princes are all still alive, and all use the title of Crown Prince or equivalent as a form of courtesy title. Nothing more. Pavlos is simply using the same international courtesy title that the above have.

The fact Greece is now a republic has nothing to do with it; it's simply an international courtesy (for example, if they are invited to the weddings of other royals, or granted an honour, or whatever).

That's it. Said international courtesy is simply that: the courtesy recognition by other royal families, both those still reigning, and those that are deposed, of the former status of the people concerned. It's a social, not a formal convention: it doesn't imply that the monarchy still exists.

Also it's interesting that you mention the French monarchy, since people for some reason forget that despite having Louis XVI executed, the monarchy was restored in France a grand total of *three* times after that (hence the large number of claimants) So, not the best example to pick.

It's also interesting that you state he is "not a Prince", given that both he, and his father absolutely undisputably *are* princes, albeit of Denmark-being male-line descendants of Christian IX of Denmark (and thus belonging to the same family as Margarethe II of Denmark, Harald V of Norway, and (in the male line), Charles III of Britain, something recognised by the Danish court (although they haven't been in line for succession to the Danish throne from 1953 onwards).

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 23:37, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Also in respect to the Crown Prince of France comment: that isn't the same: because this form of international courtesy title only applies for two generations: once the former monarch and his heir die, their successors as head of the family obviously can't use the title that was used during the monarchy.

So, this is why, after the former Crown Princes of monarchies that have been abolished have died, their successors as Head of the family adopt another title, usually a title that refers to the beginning of the dynasty or family.

This is why the Head of the deposed Portuguese Royal Family is 'Duke of Braganza', not 'King (or Crown Prince) of Portugal', why the head of the former French royal family is 'Count of Paris', not 'King of France', the head of the former royal family of Saxony is 'Margrave of Meissen', and there are many more. This is also why Margareta of Romania, the eldest daughter of the former King Michael I of Romania, is styled 'Custodian of the Crown', and not 'Crown Princess of Romania', because she was born *after* her father was deposed and the monarchy was abolished, hence she was never able to use the courtesy title as she had never been heir.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, there is a dearth of reliable sources that refer to Pavlos as "Crown Prince of Greece", only pro-Royalist POV ones such as the Daily Mail and fandom sites. Apologists for ex-royalty clinging on to their defunct titles, such as JWULTRABLIZZARD, need to properly source these titles. Remember, nothing else counts in WP.

As for all this nonsense about their being entitled in some mysterious way to retain their royal titles despite the abolition of royalty in the originating country, I suggest you have a look, JWULTRABLIZZARD, at the official website of the family: https://www.greekroyalfamily.gr/en/royal-family.html. They refer to themselves as, e.g. "Prince Pavlos", NOT "Price Pavlos of Greece" etc. (The same applies in the Greek version.)

Incidentally, King Constantine, before 1974, styled himself as "King of the Hellenes", not as "King of Greece" (would you like some sources for this?). The Hellenes made their feelings about the man who swore in the Colonels' junta perfectly clear in the 1974 plebiscite, so he could hardly continue to style himself as King of the Hellenes after that, could he? The family subsequently described themselves as plain "King Constantine", "Prince Pavlos", "Queen Anne-Marie" etc. without the "of Greece" moniker.

I have given the best possible source for how members of the family describe themselves, viz. their own official website. Despite the huge quantity of heated exchange on this talk page, I fail to see that anyone has given a single reliable, non-Royalist, non-POV source, for the description "of Greece". Come on, all you apologists, where are your sources?StefanosPavlos (talk) 18:26, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Re. the international convention that deposed monarchs (and their heir) retain said title for their life-this is less a rule set in stone (but it is generally followed) and literally that -a convention. When a monarchy is abolished, the Royal family don't suddenly stop being invited to social gatherings of other royal families -they are, after all, closely related and interlinked, and they are still invited to The weddings, baptisms, and other social gatherings of other royals-the former Greek royal family is closely related to those of Spain (the King of Spain's mother is Pavlos' aunt), Britain (obviously, as the present King of the UK's father was born a Prince of the Greek Royal Family), Denmark (both because Constantine II was the brother in law of Queen Margrethe II, not to mention the former Greek royals are a cadet branch of the Danish royal house), Norway (ditto being a cadet branch of the Danish RF). They have to be called *something* on invitations and The like, and it would be more than a bit rude for their relations to suddenly start calling Constantine II 'Constantine Glucksburg' or some other appellation (never mind The fact that that isn't and never was his surname-which he didn't have anyway). So there's nothing "mysterious" about it-it's just polite social convention .

Regarding the Glucksburg Kings being "Βασιλεύς των Ελλήνων"-King of *the Hellenes* and not "της Ελλάδος" 'of Greece' -I am perfectly aware. You're missing my point. The issue is not with the ethnic descriptor here, but of the rank-nobody is saying Constantine II wasn't deposed in 1974, or that his deposition wasn't legitimately given sanction by a fair, democratic vote of the people of Greece -but he unquestionably, as your own sources show, continued to style himself 'King Constantine' in line with the general convention as regards how deposed monarchs are styled. (And note the important qualifier *styled*-not 'titled'-an important distinction there).

Nonetheless, you asked for sources, that is after all how WP works-so I'll endeavour to provide you with them in respect to The aforementioned convention regarding deposed monarchs:

Simeon II, The deposed King of Bulgaria; continues to style himself as 'King of the Bulgarians' on his website:

-the political party that he founded when he returned to Bulgaria; the National Movement for Stability and Progress (Bulgarian: Национално движение за стабилност и възход, Natsionalno dvizhenie za stabilnost i vazhod, NDSV) was also known as the 'National Movement Simeon II (or in Bulgarian: Национално движение „Симеон Втори“).

Note that when he became elected as Prime Minister of Bulgaria from 2001 to 2007 (yes, that actually happened), he used also the name 'Simeon Sakskoburgotski'-a Bulgarian transliteration of the name of his royal house, Saxe Coburg and Gotha, which was used internationally-for example here's an example of him being described as such in Hansard, the official recording of the UK parliament:

-however he's also referred to as simply 'King' seven times in the same debate, and once as 'former King'. Note that the speaker in question -Baroness Rawlings, is despite her (life) title of Baroness, actually a republican, so she has no particular cause to describe him otherwise.

Hansard records also has him referred to as "the former King Simeon of Bulgaria" in a December 2004 debate in a separate debate in the House of Lords concerning the European Council:

Since the end of his tenure as Prime Minister of Bulgaria, it seems that Simeon II has dropped the 'Sakskoburgotski' surname-although it's also worth noting that, despite having to take an oath to the Bulgarian constitution and republic when he became Prime Minister, he never actually dropped his claim to the Bulgarian throne.

Granted, that example is probably as unusual as the fact of a deposed !monarch getting democratically elected as Prime Minister of a republic, so I'll press on-site

-the deposed King of Nepal, Gyenendra, has been referred to as 'King' and 'former King' in the Indian press:

-and the BBC:

The official Gazette of Spain:

The official website of the French embassy to Nepal:

The Bhutanese press:

And even the Nepalese press:

Note that these all refer to him *after* his deposition.

In respect to Alexander, who was briefly Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, and still continues to use the title as a courtesy:

He is described as 'Crown Prince of Yugoslavia '

-in the British press:

-the BBC:

-the US press:

7-9ad1-f2c007471509/

(Washington Post)

(San Francisco Chronicle)

-the Romanian press:

and even the Serbian press:

-so as you can see, that's just two examples of a former monarchs still using the title he used as monarch as a form of social convention, and an example of a Crown Prince using the same title that they used during the monarchy for the same purposes.

Note that I don't have any particular factional feeling towards this-I'm not Greek, so I obviously am not going to have any passionate emotional reaction to this issue either way as a Greek monarchist or a Greek republican might have. I'm simply pointing out that the continued use of the reigning title by a deposed monarch, and that of his heir, is a widely used international convention. Nothing more.

Note as well that, as a convention, this is not a hard and fast rule, and a minority of deposed monarchs have actually used a lesser title in exile-again, because it's a social convention.

I can, if you like; give you sources in respect to The continued use of their royal title after their deposition by ex-King Peter II of Yugoslavia, ex-King Umberto II of Italy (that example is actually fairly close to the Greek one as the Italian government doesn't recognise the titles of the deposed royal house-nonetheless, they continue to use them), his son Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples,ex-King Michael I of Romania, ex-King Zahir Shah of Afghanistan, ex-King Muhammad al-Badr of Yemen, ex-King Fuad II of Egypt, ex-King Idris of Libya, ex-Emperor Wilhelm II of Germany, and his son Wilhelm, German Crown Prince (again, similar to the Greek example as the German constitution of 1919 didn't recognise titles of nobility -nonetheless they were still used), Ahmad Shah Khan, Crown Prince of Afghanistan, and others if you so wish.

I have absolutely no interest or will to promote either a monarchist or republican agenda as regards this, I merely wish to accurately describe the subject of this article in an accurate manner.

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 00:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

References

Why all this? It should be very simple. Wikipedia calls people what they are most frequently called in mainstream media, regardless of what's right or wrong. If Pavlos usually is called "Crown Prince" in mainstream media, that's what Wikipedia must call him. If not, Wikipedia must not call him that. If a man becomes known primarily as Donald Mouse or Mickey Duck, that's what Wikipedia will call him. Those are the strict and clear rules in Wikipedia work, like it or not. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:31, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. As User:SergeWoodzing pointed out above, by the mainstream media (even the Greek media!), Pavlos is referred to as "Pavlos, Crown Prince of Greece", meaning that is his WP:COMMONNAME. It might be different if he never was, but he literally was the crown prince of Greece! - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:16, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, but by adding comments about what he was or is you are playing into the hands of those who want this to go on forever. I repeat: If Pavlos usually is called "Crown Prince" in mainstream media, that's what Wikipedia must call him. If not, Wikipedia must not call him that. Enough! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:19, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

former

The Greek-language Wikipedia has the best solution to the title of the article: Παύλος τέως Διάδοχος της Ελλάδας - Pavlos, former Crown Prince of Greece. We should follow their lead over here, too.StefanosPavlos (talk) 18:43, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

In References

In References, as all heads of former ruling families, put the title Titular King of the Hellenes 178.135.0.1 (talk) 08:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

"from" category

There have already been discussions about this. These are not birth categories. A person being born in a place and leaving immediately as a baby does not qualify as being "from" that place. This is how the entire category tree is structured, and there won't be an exception for this article. Antondimak (talk) 09:45, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Also Tatoi is not in Athens under the definition used in the tree. Antondimak (talk) 09:49, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Urgent need for compromise

I fail to see why naming conventions in certain rarefied royal and royalist circles (as per JWULTRABLIZZARD above) have anything to do with how we should describe members of the former Greek royal family. What the deposed royals of Bulgaria, Nepal, and Yugoslavia have to do with the former Greek royal family escapes me.

As we are aware, on the official family website, Constantine is styled as "King Constantine" but NOT "of Greece". Pavlos is described as "Prince Pavlos" but NOT as "Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece". Is Pavlos referred to as "Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece" on invitations to royal functions? I have no way of knowing, and don't think it is particularly relevant to the current discussion, but if you (JWULTRABLIZZARD) are claiming this, you need to provide a RS that proves it.

What is relevant is how reliable sources refer to Pavlos and other members of the former Greek royal family, for example:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64296757: "last king Constantine II"; "the former king"; "Greece's final king, Constantine II"; plain "Constantine"; "Constantine's wife Anne-Marie"; "Constantine's eldest son Pavlos" - absolutely no sign of "King Constantine of Greece" or "Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece" etc. Current royals do get their titles, but not deposed ones.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/29/helenasmith: "Greece's deposed king, Constantine II"

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2007/jan/24/art.world: "the ... deposed King Constantine II"; and plain "Constantine"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/16/funeral-of-greece-last-king-constantine-ii-takes-place-in-athens: "king without a crown ... Constantine II" - again current royals get their titles, but not deposed ones.

(I have not found any references to Pavlos in The Guardian.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/greece-athens-greek-prince-of-wales-president-b2263200.html: "the last king of Greece, Constantine II"; "Constantine’s wife, Anne-Marie"; "his eldest son Pavlos"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ap-greece-philip-kyriakos-mitsotakis-athens-b2260085.html: "Constantine, the former and last king of Greece"; "He is survived by his wife, the former Princess Anne-Marie of Denmark, youngest sister of Queen Margrethe II; five children, Alexia, Pavlos, Nikolaos, Theodora and Philippos…"

The Telegraph is behind a paywall.

https://greekreporter.com/2023/01/16/thousands-last-respects-former-king-constantine-greece/: "Former King of Greece Constantine"; "His sons former Prince Pavlos....his wife Anne-Marie" (and these in a publication with, apparently, a very favourable view of the former Greek royal family)

Now, it may be true that I have avoided less reliable sources such as The Daily Mail, The Daily Express, fandom sites etc., but at the very least, the sources quoted prove that there is no cosy consensus on how these individuals should be referred to. The most reliable source of all, the BBC, makes no bones about avoiding any semblance of royal titles when referring to deposed Greek royalty.

The distinction JWULTRABLIZZARD makes between titles and styling is, I feel, tenuous at best, given that there is no way to distinguish between the two in the title of an article. The naïve reader will not realise that the article’s title is intended to be a mere “styling” rather than some sort of official title, and could easily be misled into believing that Pavlos is currently in line for the Greek throne, despite the fact that that throne has not existed for c. 50 years.

To sum up:

1) None of the former Greek royal family should be described as anything “of Greece” given that a) the family themselves do not claim to be “of Greece” (and this might therefore constitute a contravention of BLP); b) the phrase “of Greece” implies some sort of official recognition by Greece where none exists and has not existed for nearly fifty years.

2) The family’s official website does not claim that Pavlos is “Crown Prince Pavlos”, only that he is styled as “Prince Pavlos” – so we should drop “Crown” from the article’s title too.

3) Reliable sources such as the BBC and the Guardian do not adorn family members with royal-sounding titles/styles such as Prince or King, preferring instead constructions such as “former king/prince”

For all these reasons, I am strongly of the opinion that this article, and those about other members of the former Greek royal family (such as Marie-Chantal), urgently need to be moved to the more neutral sort of construction used by reliable sources. “Pavlos, former prince of Greece” might be a good choice, or possibly “Pavlos, former crown prince of Greece”, as they make clear the connections between Pavlos, the family, and Greece, without making any apparent spurious claims to a non-existent throne or to a non-existent status within Greece.

The addition of one simple word to the title – “former” – would transform the title into something more accurate, more appropriate, more in keeping with the forms used by reliable sources, more reflective of the styles adopted by the family, more in tune with the political and constitutional realities both today and since 1974. It represents a compromise between those who argue that “Crown Prince of Greece” has no current legitimacy and should be removed completely from the title, and those who wish to retain that wording despite it having the appearance of a valid and current royal title. Compromise is supposedly central to dispute resolution on WP, yet any attempt to move the article is consistently blocked by those who can only be described as apologists for ex-royalty.

I regard it as a failure of the part of Wikipedia policy makers that there is insufficient guidance to avoid large scale discussions such as the present one over the choice of a few words in the title of an article concerning members of former royal families. Given that previous attempts to move this and other similar articles to more appropriate and accurate titles have all failed, I am under no illusions as to the prospects of this article being moved and am very tempted to withdraw from any further discussion on this page. Wikipedia is wrong here, most people know it is wrong, and if a consensus cannot be found to correct it, well, I have better ways to spend my time. However, I would be willing to give some form of WP dispute resolution a shot. Are you up for this?StefanosPavlos (talk) 18:51, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

"Are you up for this?"

No. Royal titles are retained in perpetuity by international law and courtesy. He is Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece, whether the monarchy exists de facto or not. Nowhere other than Greece refuses to recognise this.

In fact, even in Greece, the law banning the possession of royal and noble titles applies only to its own citizens. Pavlos is not a Greek citizen. Vabadus91 (talk) 00:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

What "international law" if I may ask? I believe that claim is not correct.

Furthermore, I find it hard to understand royal titles retained in perpetuity by ... courtesy. What does that mean? To me, courtesy is up to whomever wishes to be courteous, thus there is never any general permanence to it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

...and your sources for these are? StefanosPavlos (talk) 06:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Can you make a list of the mentions of Pavlos as "former prince" among reliable sources? There is an argument there, but we need more than anecdotal evidence. Antondimak (talk) 10:06, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

If there's complaints about using 'crown prince' or 'crown princess' etc, for former heirs apparent/presumptive of defunct thrones? Then open a RFC on the matter at WP:ROY. Note we also have Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia (pretender to the former Serbia throne) & Margareta of Romania (disputed pretender to the former Romanian throne), just to name other such pages. GoodDay (talk) 04:26, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

International treaty allowing them to keep their titles.

Those that support that pavlos should be referred to as crown prince of Greece keep mentioning a treaty that allows them to keep their titles. Could someone point me to that treaty (and which article of that treaty)? 79.167.189.17 (talk) 12:24, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

There were "a ton" of treaties made in 1814 & 1815 - aparantly it is one of those(?) - I have tried to read The Treaty of Vienna, but it's not that one. Oleryhlolsson (talk) 12:36, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Smacks of complete bluff, I think. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:07, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism

Hey @User:DrKay, thanks for fixing the vandalism; I was actually on my way to doing it myself, but you beat me to it! Should we warn the IP or? Therealscorp1an (talk) 20:42, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes: done now[6], thanks. DrKay (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

vandalism? if only you showed some respect to the will of Greek people, no one would need to resort to vandalism. 79.167.175.190 (talk) 21:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Why does he and his family still have their titles?

This makes no sense. Wikipedia rightfully removed the German royals/nobility titles. Why is he and his family still allowed to be titled? They are not royals, no matter how much they scream that they are. Unfriendnow (talk) 01:43, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Technically they are royals; you cannot stop being a royal even if you lose your throne. And they are still princes of Denmark, descended from Christian IX and Pavlos' aunt being the Queen of Denmark. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 05:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

How are they Princes of Denmark only because of the fact they are descended from Christian IX? where is the law/decree that states that??? also It doesn't matter if his aunt is the Queen of Denmark, that doesn't make them royalty. Greece has got rid of their royal family, they are not "technically" royals. Unfriendnow (talk) 20:18, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

He was the crown prince of Greece. Just like Wilhelm, Crown Prince of Germany, Ernest Augustus, Crown Prince of Hanover, Georg, Crown Prince of Saxony, etc were real crown princes. We don't remove titles from real title holders. DrKay (talk) 07:08, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Key word "WAS" He simply isn't anymore. Why not use "ex crown prince of Greece" Unfriendnow (talk) 20:19, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Because we use common names for article titles per policy. Google search for "ex crown prince of Greece" throws up 0 reliable sources relating to Pavlos. DrKay (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

He was born "crown prince of Greece" & we use the highest title, in these bios. Also, Paul is a Danish royal. GoodDay (talk) 23:40, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

How is Paul a Danish royal, where is the legal law/decree/letters patent stating so? Unfriendnow (talk) 00:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

He's a direct descendant of King Christian IX of Denmark, through both his parents (Constantine II of Greece, a great-great-grandson & Anne-Marie, a great-great-granddaughter of Christian). However's Paul's mother, his siblings & his children are barred from the Danish throne. GoodDay (talk) 01:00, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

That doesn't make him a Danish Prince. By that logic Margrethe's grandsons would still be princes. Unfriendnow (talk) 20:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Not really. The removal of their titles is specific for them. It's not a blanket removal of all descendants of Christian IX. DrKay (talk) 20:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Where is the legal law/decree/letters patent stating so? Unfriendnow (talk) 21:12, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

See all relevant official documents and announcements, e.g. "as of 1 January 2023, His Royal Highness Prince Joachim’s descendants...". DrKay (talk) 17:42, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

So how does that justify calling him a “crown prince of Greece” in the title? Only whatever Danish title he has would be appropriate. Zenomonoz (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

"Because we use common names for article titles per policy. ... DrKay (talk) 20:35, 13 August 2023 (UTC)" If you continue to waste everybody's time with inanely repetitive discussion, I shall assume you are being deliberately disruptive. Per Wikipedia:Disruptive editing, persistently disruptive editors can be blocked from editing. DrKay (talk) 11:51, 21 January 2024 (UTC)