Talk:Pan Am Flight 1104

Trip 62100/Flight V-1104

This was actually Pan Am Trip #62100. For communication purposes, it was identified as Flight V-1104.70.253.94.232 (talk) 00:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposed changes to fix some discrepencies with the location of the crash

I appreciate the creation of this article very much, but something is amiss. I believe that the memorial plaque inscription that is cited as a reference has a few problems. I'm proposing three changes be made:

1. The crash coordinates should be changed from 39°04′N 123°16′W to 39°04′N 123°17′W (per the official report)

The official report says the plane hit a mountain at about 2500 feet elevation. The coordinates on the plaque point to a site that's about 1600 feet in elevation, according to topo maps and Google Earth. The coordinates in the official crash report[1] ARE at 2500 ft.

The coordinates given for the crash site on the plaque (and in the article) are 39°04′N 123°16′W. That location is is 119 miles to the north of San Carlos, but the article states that the plaque, located at the Hiller Aviation Museum in San Carlos, is 'very near' the crash site. I believe that to be in error, and that the intent was to say the plaque is very near the flight's intended destination, San Francisco Bay, not the crash location. San Carlos is situated adjacent to San Francisco Bay.

2. Therefore, "very near the crash site" should be changed to say "very near the flight's destination", or something similiar. I suppose it's possible the plaque's final location is intended to be at or near the crash site, but that's speculation on my part. The plane crashed in a rugged spot, well off the beaten path, so I doubt many people would ever see the plaque should it end up on that mountainside.

The article refers to the crash site as "15 miles east of Boonville", but the (probably incorrect) coordinates in the current article are actually 6.7 miles to the northeast of Boonville. In any case, the crash report states three times that the crash was 7 miles from Ukiah, and that fits the proposed, revised coordinates very well.

3. Therefore, "15 miles east of Boonville" should be changed to "7 miles SW of Ukiah". Ukiah is a much larger, more well-known town than tiny Boonville, as well.

It's unfortunate the memorial plaque very likely has errors, but that's hardly the first time something like that has happened. I'll be making the above changes within a few days, if there are no objections. --Itsfullofstars (talk) 07:43, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

In response to your proposals (mostly because I was the one to create the page; but really, it may be my baby but feel free to be bold):

1. The plaque coordinates versus "official" coordinates. Please tell me we're not quibbling over a change of 1 minute west. Really, that would be an altogether new low for me. Go change it. I'm pretty sure the official coordinates take precedence. ;)

(A note in the section about the memorial about the coordinates discrepancy wouldn't be amiss, however.)

2. The "very near the crash site" is how I translated the text from the plaque: "... the Philippine Clipper crashed near this site on ..." (emphasis added). So while "very" could be dropped, the "near the crash site" is still accurate in terms of the reference (the plaque).

3. The reference to "15 miles east of Boonville" comes from references: Boonville ([2]) and "15 miles east" ... OK I have no idea where that came from. The reference is to the plaque, which doesn't mention Boonville at all. A switch to "between Boonville and Ukiah" would be fine I suppose. Or just a mention to Ukiah since that's what in the official report.

And I'd totally suggest putting in a note in the section about the memorial about discrepancies but that would be violating the no original research policy.

Go. Have fun. And if the IP addresses who edit this page complain, well, they can go make accounts and quibble with us later. --Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû 09:17, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: in the case of "near this crash site". I suppose "near" is subjective, since, as you mentioned, San Carlos is 119 miles away. It's still in California, though, and in that case I suppose "near" applies. It's kind of like having an article about Tallahassee and saying that the space shuttle launched "near" there, even though Cape Canaveral is, well, a bit far from Tallahassee, but still in the state. (Now if we had a plaque to Flight 1104 in Denver that said that the plane crashed "near" there, well, then we'd have a problem.) The point is not so much that the article must conclude what we know is right from our own research, but what sources claim is right.

Now, your research has obviously thrown some doubt onto the verifiability of the plaque as a source, so information currently sourced by the plaque should be re-researched and re-sourced, but until a different source is found, it should remain. --Mûĸĸâĸûĸâĸû 09:22, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Someone else nudged me about two weeks ago on my talk page to go ahead and make my proposed changes, and I've finally gotten around to it. I made my changes, and a few more. The reason the original geo location bothered me has more to do with the mountainous terrain at the crash site than anything else. Because of the lay of the land, that one-minute difference translates not only to a roughly 1100 foot elevation change that disagreed with the official report, but also shifts the crash site between an east-facing slope and a west-facing slope (the two locations are separated by a ridge). That could make a difference in trying to understand how the aircraft ended up where it did, if someone is seriously trying to research this accident. Now, off to bed (2 am here!). Cheers, --Itsfullofstars (talk) 10:02, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

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