Talk:List of Catholic martyrs of the English Reformation

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Removed Polemical Jibe[edit]

I've removed the irrelevent "Few, if any, were burned alive, the usual means of execution of religious dissenters under Catholic regimes at the time" to remove the obvious polemical intent of mentioning those whom the Catholics killed. Why? Simply because nothing about Protestants killing Catholics is referred to in Marian Persecutions. Why not just keep each entry pertinent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.223.216 (talk) 00:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The difference in execution methods is because Roman Catholics were not being executed for heresy but for high treason. Women were not drawn & quartered but could be strangled & burnt. However aristocrats would be beheaded & Margaret Clitheroe was pressed with weights ([force peine et dure]}, a method designed to force confession.--Streona (talk) 09:53, 12 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Expansion[edit]

I have added a request for expansion to this article. The list of martyrs is very much incomplete. Now I understand that one can't list every single English martyr- however, perhaps eventually all those Beatified or Canonised could be listed, if people added to it. Also, perhaps more information could be added beyond just a bare list of names (for example, date of martyrdom etc.)--Robotforaday 23:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for expansion of this list however this list is simply a rip off of the new catholic dictionaries list (which is far more extensive) the dates listed are exactly the same anyway. I say we erase this list and make one list of those english martyr's that have been beautified and those who have been canonized. those martyr's are much more likely to have information actually known about them and therefore have seperate Wikipedia pages dedicated to them. That would also limit the amount of information we'd need to put on one page. even one sentence per martyr would be humongous if we listed every single one. I'll await someone's input before I attempt this. --Gravities rain 22:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm quite interesteded in expanding this article. At the moment, I'm working on making some of the red links blue in Eighty-five martyrs of England and Wales. ElinorD (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good. What exactly is the source for the new list that you'd want to put up? Robotforaday 17:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps in good ecumenical spirit we could merge this article with the list of (Protestant) "Marian Martyrs": who were also, of course, "English Martyrs". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.41.187.247 (talk • contribs) 13:24, 5 July 2007..

I don't think Protestant martyrs should be mixed with Catholic martrys. It would be reasonable if there were only a few of each. But that's not the case. ElinorD (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I oppose merging the articles. There is also Oxford Martyrs with other Protestant martyrs of this period. Readers can already navigate between these lists using the categories e.g. Catholic and Protestant martyrs of the Early Modern era. What I will do is create navigation boxes for the categories. - Fayenatic london (talk) 17:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The list[edit]

It seems indiscriminate; there are certainly entries corresponding to Catholic priests imprisoned by Elizabeth. While it is useful to have these names, without annotations it is unclear what is meant by the listing. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:09, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For example the entry for David Poole. He was deprived of his bishopric by Elizabeth, but was not subject to heavy sanctions or confinement, and died a natural death. The inclusion of such figures clearly is incompatible with the introduction, which is problematic anyway. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These entries on the list were the full list, I think, of bishops deprived by Elizabeth, nearly all of them imprisoned for some time (the books say 11 were, and it depends what you mean by a prison). None of these should be on a list of martyrs. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A long list is at [1]; and this has fairly clearly been used to compile the listing here. William Chedsey is down as a "martyr in chains", but he was apparently released from prison, and there is no question of execution: same type of case as these bishops. So I'm removing him from the page. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:33, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, I came to the talk page to say much the same thing- John Boxall is listed but according to his own entry he was released from custody to go to a relative's house where he died. Also, the linking needs attention - I only clicked through a few at random but I found two that were linked to entirely the wrong person. MorganaFiolett (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the Boxall link. I only managed to work over the first section systematically. The templates {{dn}} and {{mnl}} can be used to flag up links to disambiguation pages and "misleading name links". Charles Matthews (talk) 10:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

England[edit]

Sometimes England is mentioned and sometimes England and Wales. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.13.68 (talk) 12:24, 22 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chronological order[edit]

The present list is divided into three chronological periods, and then within those periods arranged alphabetically by surname. Would it not be more useful to have a chronological list? Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:35, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It might. Of course the title of the page is somewhat misleading anyway, stretching as it does from Henry VIII to the Popish Plot. There are purely chronological "saints and blesseds" lists as it is: Chronological list of saints and blesseds in the 16th century etc. The origins of this page are (I believe) in the Catholic Encyclopedia: s:Catholic Encyclopedia (1913)/English Confessors and Martyrs (1534-1729). Which is why the list had names in that are not martyrs. It would be more scholarly to reconsider the matter, perhaps putting "early modern" into the title and attempting some sort of periodisation. Charles Matthews (talk) 22:44, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"See also" hatnote is improper per MOS[edit]

They are supposed to be used for the purposes of disambiguation, not for the purpose of "giving the casual reader balance". --Kenatipo speak! 04:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would you please provide a link to the section of MOS you are citing. Eddaido (talk) 10:11, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Of course! First I went to Wikipedia:See_also#See_also_section, then I went to Wikipedia:Hatnote#Examples_of_proper_use. I believe the reason this sort of See also hatnote is restricted to disambiguation is because it can be overly provocative. What you're attempting to do isn't disambiguation, I think. It would be like me going the the Barack Obama article and putting a See also hatnote to Jerome Corsi's The Obama Nation. Yes, it would provide "needed balance", but it's also unnecessarily provocative and therefore discouraged. There's no problem with having Marian Persecutions in a See also section at the bottom of the article. --Kenatipo speak! 16:28, 20 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

'List of Catholics executed for their faith'[edit]

Died in prison[edit]

In light of the heading, I propose to delete the following, who are shown on their pages as having died in prison, as opposed to being executed: - John Almond, Thomas Metham, Thomas Sedgwick, Martin Sherson, James Stonnes, Laurence Vaux (does not appear to have been executed), Placid Adelham, William Atkins, William Bentney, John Gerard (Jesuit) 'died in 1637, aged 73, at the English College seminary, Rome' John Goodman (Jesuit). Alekksandr (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05474a.htm shows as 'martyrs in chains' the following, whom I propose to delete from this page, for the reasons set out above.

Bishops - Richard Creagh,

Priests in London Prisons - John Rivers (alias Austen Abbot), priest, Richard Adams, priest, Thomas Belser, priest, James Brushford, priest, 1593, Edmund Cannon, priest, 1651, Henry Cole, Anthony Draycott, priest, 1570, Andrew Fryer (alias Herne or Richmond), priest, 1651, - Gretus, priest, Richard Hatton, priest, 1584, Nicholas Harpsfield 'He remained in prison until his release on health grounds in 1574, sixteen months before his death.', Francis Quashet, priest, 1642, Thomas Slythurst, John Young, priest

Laymen in London Prisons - Sir Edward Waldegrave, 1561, Richard Weston, Jesuit

Priests in York - John Ackridge, priest, 1585, William Baldwin (Bawden), priest, 1588, William Bannersley, priest, Thomas Bedal, priest, 1590, Richard Bowes, priest, 1590, Henry Comberford, priest, 1584, James Gerard, priest, Nicholas Grene, priest, 1571, Thomas Harwood, priest, 1586, John Pearson, priest, Thomas Ridall, priest, James Swarbrick, priest.

In Various Prisons - James Brown, Benedictine, 1645, 1558: Richard Coppinger, Benedictine, Robert Edmonds, Benedictine, 1615, John Feckenham,Laurence Mabbs, Benedictine, 1641, William Middleton (alias Heathcote), Benedictine, 1644, Placid Peto, Benedictine, 1642–1643, , Thomas PrestonBoniface Wilford, Benedictine, Thomas Mudde, Cistercian, 1583, David Joseph Kemys (Kemeys), monk, 1680, Thomas Ackridge, Franciscan, 1583, Laurence Collier, Franciscan, 1590, Walter Coleman, Franciscan, 1645, Matthew Brazier (alias Grimes), Jesuit, 1650, Humphrey Browne, Jesuit, Thomas Foster (Forster), Jesuit, 1648, John Hudd, Jesuit, Cuthbert Prescott, Jesuit, Ignatius Price, Jesuit, Charles Pritchard, Jesuit, Francis Simeon, Jesuit, John Thompson, Jesuit, Charles Thursley, Jesuit, William Baldwin (Bawden), priest, 1588, James Gerard, priest, John Pearson, priest, James Swarbrick, priest

Laymen - James Clayton

If anyone believes that they were executed, please provide a citation.

NB - the above list includes Richard Reynolds and William Barrow (Jesuit)(also known as "William Harcourt"), although they were executed. Alekksandr (talk) 21:24, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

http://oce.catholic.com/oce/browse-page-scans.php?id=7df0a7628b65bff7eb696bd0b1162b41 says that Thomas Downes, S.J., 1678 died in prison as opposed to being executed. I therefore propose to delete him. I also propose to delete from the list of those executed the following dilati ' "Confessors", who certainly died in prison for their faith', as opposed to being executed. See http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05474a.htm Thomas Cotesmore, priest, 1584, Roger Wakeman, priest, 1584, James Lomax, priest, 1584, Thomas Crowther, priest, 1585, Edward Pole, priest, 1585, John Jetter, priest, 1585, John Harrison, priest, 1586, Gabriel Thimelby, priest, 1587, Edward Wilkes, priest, 1642, Richard Bradley, Jesuit, 1645, Thomas Vaughan, priest, Thomas Blount, priest, 1647, Robert Cox, Benedictine, 1650, Thomas Jennison, Jesuit, 1679, William Lloyd, priest, 1679, Richard Birkett, priest, 1680, Richard Lacey, Jesuit, 1680, William Allison, priest, 1681, Edward Turner, Jesuit, 1681, Benedict Constable, Benedictine, 1683, Thomas Dyer, Benedictine, c.1618-1630

Thomas Wood, priest, 1588 - according to http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15698a.htm he died in prison rather than being executed. I therefore propose to delete him from the list of 'List of Catholics executed for their faith' Alekksandr (talk) 15:52, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edward Mico, Jesuit, 1678, (Venerable) - the New Catholic Encyclopedia says that he was 'Too ill to be removed from sick-bed, where he died.' I therefore propose to delete him from the 'List of Catholics executed for their faith' Alekksandr (talk) 21:16, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Bedingfeld, Jesuit, 1678, Francis Levison, Franciscan, 1679, Francis Nevil, Jesuit, 1679 - the New Catholic Encyclopedia says that they 'Died in prison.' I therefore propose to delete them from the 'List of Catholics executed for their faith' Alekksandr (talk) 21:51, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Identity doubtful[edit]

I suggest that 'Cuthbert Tunstall, priest, 1616' may be a result of confusion between Thomas Tunstall, priest, 1616 and Bishop Cuthbert Tunstall, who died in custody at Lambeth Palace in 1559. I therefore propose to delete him. Alekksandr (talk) 21:31, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nicholas Atkinson, priest, 1610 - in light of what is said at http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02050c.htm , I propose to delete him. Alekksandr (talk) 13:41, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

William Blackburne, priest, 1586; Robert Holmes, priest, 1584; Thomas Molineux, Jesuit, 1681; William Harrison, priest, 1594; 1544: Martin Coudres, Augustinian monk;- do not appear in http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05474a.htm or in the New Catholic Encyclopedia under those years. I believe that 'William Harrison' may have been an error for William Harrington. I therefore propose to delete them unless someone has a citation for them. Alekksandr (talk) 22:44, 5 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Gabyt, Cistercian, 1575, William Hambleton, priest, 1585, Roger Martin, priest, 1592, Christopher Dixon, Augustinian, 1616, John Penketh, Jesuit - appear in http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05474a.htm but not in the New Catholic Encyclopedia under those years. I propose to delete them unless someone has a modern citation for them.

Means of death[edit]

Ildephonse Hesketh (alias William Hanson), Benedictine, 1644 - http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-30PAAAAIAAJ&lpg=RA1-PA148&ots=YW8pLfy0XS&dq=%22Ildephonse%20Hesketh%22&pg=RA1-PA148#v=onepage&q&f=false 'driven on foot before [Parliament soldiers] in the heat of summer, by which cruel and outrageous usage they were so heated and spent, that they either forthwith or soon after died'. I suggest that the page should make clear that he died in this way, as opposed to being executed. Alekksandr (talk) 21:19, 30 March 2013 (UTC) Alekksandr (talk) 17:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Martyrdom doubtful[edit]

Richard Masters, priest - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13063a.htm says that he was pardoned. I therefore propose to delete him. Alekksandr (talk) 21:08, 8 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Martyred in Ireland[edit]

According to the New Catholic Encyclopedia, John Travers was executed in Dublin. I therefore propose to move him to Irish Catholic Martyrs. Alekksandr (talk) 16:13, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should or will such one-sided lists get us all prosecuted for incitement to religious hatred?[edit]

Should or will such one-sided lists get us all prosecuted for incitement to religious hatred? I'm joking of course, but many a true word is spoken in jest. Shouldn't we be trying to merge this kind of list so that Catholics get to learn about Protestant martyrs, and vice versa? Tlhslobus (talk) 04:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since this discussion has got underway at the (English Protestant) Marian Martyrs' Talk Page first, please continue this discussion there to have it all in a single place, as Wikipedia recommends. Tlhslobus (talk) 13:11, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong date[edit]

User:BozMo has used the date 1571. See Treasons Act 1570. See Bulls, etc., from Rome Act 1570. Both are dated 1570. See Supremacy of the Crown Act 1562. This is earlier than 1570. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.109.117 (talk) 09:46, 30 May 2013 (UTC) The Act of Supremacy 1558 is still partly in force. It mentions treason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.109.117 (talk) 10:01, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Acts of Parliament (Commencement) Act 1793. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.109.117 (talk) 16:07, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Singleton[edit]

Robert Singleton appears on this page. He was executed on 7 March 1544 along with John Larke, German Gardiner and John Ireland. The Catholic Encyclopedia says that 'the cause of [his] execution is uncertain'. Foxe's Book of Martyrs, which deals with *Protestant* martyrs of the Reformation, says that 'the true cause [of his execution] was for nothing else, but for preaching the Gospel unto the people'. I therefore propose to delete him from this list of Catholic martyrs. Alekksandr (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd leave him there for now. The exact details of his "crime" are obscure but he was definitely a Catholic and was executed on religious grounds (according to Foxe) during the reformation. John Larke who died alongside Singleton, has been beatified by the Catholic Church which doesn't prove anything, but is highly suggestive. Tigerboy1966  06:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On 30th July 1540, six people were executed for religious reasons. The Protestants Robert Barnes, Thomas Gerrard and William Jerome were burned and the Roman Catholics Thomas Abel, Richard Fetherston and Edward Powell were hanged, drawn, and quartered. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that 'All six were drawn through the streets upon three hurdles, a Catholic and a heretic on each hurdle.' I therefore suggest that the fact of his being executed alongside John Larke is of limited relevance. Do you have a modern citation for the statement that 'he was definitely a Catholic'? The statement to that effect in the original DNB is absent from the current version. He does not appear in the list of 'Martyrs of England, Scotland and Wales' in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. Another possibility would be to insert him both here and in List of Protestant martyrs of the English Reformation with a note on each page that he also appears in the other.Alekksandr (talk) 16:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the original DNB counts as RS. He was Catholic as were Larke and Germain Gardiner. I can't see how the 30th July executions are relevant. Tigerboy1966  17:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that, where something is stated in the first edition of a work and removed in a later edition of the same work, that indicates that the first edition should no longer be cited. You had said that 'John Larke who died alongside Singleton, has been beatified by the Catholic Church which ... is highly suggestive'. I am pointing out that Abel, Fetherstone and Powell, who died alongside Barnes, Gerrard, and Jerome, have been beatified by the Roman Catholic Church, but that does not at all suggest that Barnes, Gerrard, and Jerome were Roman Catholics. Alekksandr (talk) 22:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lawrence Cook[edit]

Carmelite. Prior of Doncaster Friary. The page says that he was executed in 1540 and cites the Victoria County History. However, the Critical Apparatus to Foxe's Book of Martyrs says that 'Coke survived to be pardoned in October, although Foxe was not alone in assuming that he had met his end'. He does not appear in the list of 'Martyrs of England, Scotland and Wales' in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. I therefore propose to delete him.Alekksandr (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He's here [2] Tigerboy1966  17:47, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That link is to the Original Catholic Encyclopedia (1907-12) - thus more than a century old. The edition to which I am referring, and in which he does not appear, is the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2002 edition. Alekksandr (talk) 22:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Giles Heron[edit]

Giles Heron, son-in-law of Thomas More, was executed in August 1540. His biography appears in the History of Parliament. He is said to have 'mumble[d] certain words touching the king'. He does not appear in the list of 'Martyrs of England, Scotland and Wales' in the New Catholic Encyclopedia. Unless someone has a citation that his execution was for religious reasons, I propose to delete him.Alekksandr (talk) 16:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He's here [3] Tigerboy1966  17:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That link is to the Original Catholic Encyclopedia (1907-12) - thus more than a century old. The edition to which I am referring, and in which he does not appear, is the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2002 edition. Alekksandr (talk) 22:20, 30 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

The martyrs phrase in the title has POV problem.Saff V. (talk) 11:22, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Compare List of Protestant martyrs of the English Reformation. I suggest that it is NPOV to describe both groups as martyrs. I therefore propose to remove the 'neutrality' note. Alekksandr (talk) 12:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Now done. Alekksandr (talk) 13:03, 20 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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St Oliver Plunkett[edit]

He was martyred at Tyburn and was originally included in the Process of England and Wales - see Acts of English martyrs hitherto unpublished, P383. I therefore suggest that he should be included here, after the Forty Martyrs, in the following format: -

Canonised by Pope Paul VI on 12 October 1975[edit]

  1. Oliver Plunkett, Archbishop of Armagh, 1 July 1681

Alekksandr (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Executed for their faith in England 1534-1680"[edit]

This section header may be problematic, since the charges against many of them, certainly in the 16th century, were treason (political disloyalty). Some of them could have saved their lives if they had renounced political allegiance to the pope. AnonMoos (talk) 02:30, 28 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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