Talk:LGBT rights by country or territory/Archive 4
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Timeline
I think Singapore should be added to the list only once the sodomy law is actually repealed. PM's declaration of intent stated to the Parliament is not a change to the law. On another note, I'd like the timeline ony to list UN nations (and unrecognised territories). Subnational jurisdictions make the list overly detailed and difficult to read. Timelines regarding subnational jurisdictions could better be placed in national pages (eg. LGBT rights in [country]). If a consensus was already reached on keeping this list here, I'd suggest to use some text coding as to differentiate nations from subnational units (eg. bold text for nations, normal text and no flag for subnational units) helping readers identify nations more rapidly. Finedelledanze (talk) 10:10, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
Erroneous color in Map
In the map of "Decriminalization of same-sex sexual intercourse by country or territory", Chile appears as if it has been decriminalized since before 1989, when in fact it was legalized in 1999, meaning that the correct color to apply to it is orange instead of yellow. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IRRUTIA5 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
Vatican City
what's with the N/A on adoption by same-sex couples? Masterball2 (talk) 07:47, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
Lead addition suggestion
I want to copy this tidbit over from the LGBT migration article, I think this is where it belongs but because of the edit protections I wanted to check here first. At the beginning of the third paragraph, right before "in 2011": "The Yogyakarta Principles, initially drafted by international human rights experts in 2006 and updated with additional recommendations in 2007, state the rights of LGBT people to live free of harm. Though they are not enforceable, they have contributed to LGBT-friendly legislation worldwide." Citation link: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.chiabu.2015.10.030 Avamcclung (talk) 05:18, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
Singapore
Add Singapore to the timeline, please. 2401:F540:7:1000:0:0:0:6613 (talk) 23:00, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 5 December 2022
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All LGBT people can serve in military in Greece, the conscription is enforced for men only 2A02:1388:20E1:CA7F:8142:D1E9:7521:125E (talk) 03:10, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I see a checkmark in the "LGB people allowed to serve openly in military" column for Greece. What changes are you requesting? Cannolis (talk) 04:01, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
Table formatting changes
Hello, I am proposing that the formatting of the tables be simplified to use the standard "wikitable" class, with no other attributes apart from perhaps the font size (not less than 90%). What are your thoughts on this? --Minoa (talk) 20:09, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
- Do you mean those found in the section LGBT rights by country or territory#LGBT-related laws by country or territory? They appear to be table-within-table, and the inner tables come from five templates like Template:LGBT rights table Africa. You need to keep the collapsible code. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 11:34, 8 December 2022 (UTC)
"South Asia" needs an overhaul
There are a few issues I have with the way the "South Asia" grouping is represented in the map.
- In India the most common form of marriage is "common law marriage" based on pre-colonial customs, meaning that in the majority of cases the colonial marriage law is not used. The Supreme Court recently gave recogition to LGBTQ marriage in the sense that live-in couples, including LGBTQ couples, are provided the same marriage rights as married couples. This essentially means that gay common law marriage (unregisitered cohabitation) is legal and should be marked as such on the map. (https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/11/25/same-sex-marriage-petition-india-supreme-court/)
- In Sri Lanka the Supreme Court stated that punishment for gay sex should not be warranted as it was based on 19th century customs of England, and therefore the law is legally unenforced and should be marked as such on the map. (https://gec.ey.gov.tw/File/A0DC201A8E3C1A62?A=C)
- In both Pakistan and Bangladesh, there are cases where the law is genuinely enforced and therefore the law is not "unenforced" and should be marked as enforced on the map. https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/pakistan/ https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/bangladesh/
- With Nepal I am mostly happy with how things are written. But it should be noted that Indian law has overtaken Nepali law as the most tolerant of LGBTQ.
- In Maldives there is generally a welcoming attitude towards LGBTQ on the tourist islands, but Sharia Law is found in some of the non-tourist islands.https://www.outofoffice.com/blog/the-law-vs-reality-gay-travel-to-the-maldives/ But at the same time there have been some politically motivated arrests of locals and migrants. https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/08/10/maldives-arrests-gay-sex-politically-motivated
~~~~ Novomanias (talk) 11:29, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
minor spelling error
In the sri lanka section of the table, it should be unenforceable, not unenforcable. thanks Nayar Ihale Malog (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 11 January 2023
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The punishment in Libya is death under the militia
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/libya-gay-men-prisoners-torture-death_n_2192481/amp
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/06/08/islamic-states-war-gays
https://goatysnews.wordpress.com/2012/11/26/twelve-men-to-be-mutilated-and-executed-by-libyan-militia-for-allegedly-being-gay-261112-2130z/ Sonoflibya (talk) 08:29, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
Already done This is transcluded from Template:LGBT rights table Africa anyway. ~ Eejit43 (talk) 01:09, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
Canada
As of December 2022 Women who have sex with Men who have sex Men can donate blood with no deferral whatsoever. thanks, tom950 Tom950 (talk) 16:40, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
Collapsible Sections
Hello. The extension of this article is too long for it to not have collapsible sections, especially as one has to navigate through the entire history and maps sections just to read the main informative tables. 200.54.142.46 (talk) 03:01, 4 March 2023 (UTC)
Uganda's Introduction of the Death Penalty for "Aggravated Homosexuality"
Good evening. Uganda has recently altered their laws to make the punishment for "Aggravated Homosexuality" the death penalty. The Ugandan government has also instated a 20 year to lifetime prison sentence for promoting homosexuality. I think this would constitute a change to the map. Sky2462 (talk) 01:52, 30 May 2023 (UTC)
- This is a reply since I don't know where to ask or how to ask, but can presidential statements (like, on Twitter or Written on a government website (.gov)) or official websites explaining the laws in a simple or habitual language (example: https://www.cancilleria.gov.co/en/nationality-0) or THE law in an online source (http://www.secretariasenado.gov.co/constitucion-politica) be valid sources for edits? Xproot (talk) 22:23, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
Constitutional Protections map has long past needed an update
The constitutional protections map is long past due an update and has a few errors. Although, I do wonder should we create a new legend that states whether a state has implicit protections (Based on court ruling or read in with other legislation) or explicit protections (stated in constitution.)
Implicit Protections:
Canada protects sexual orientation implicitly
Taiwan protects sexual orientation implicitly thanks to a court ruling
Andorra protects sexual orientation implicitly thanks to a 2005 court ruling
Belize protects sexual orientation implicitly thanks to the court ruling that decriminalized sodomy in 2016.
Botswana protects sexual orientation implicitly thanks to the court ruling that decriminalized sodomy in 2019 and was later upheld.
Antigua and Barbuda's ruling that decriminalized sodomy in 2022 protects sexual orientation and gender identity.
Barbados ruling that decriminalized sodomy in 2022/2023 was interpreted to also protect sexual orientation.
Explicit Protections:
South Africa's constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly.
Portugal's constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly.
Sweden's constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly since a 2002 constitutional amendment.
San Marino's constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly thanks to a referendum.
Kosovo's constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly.
Mexico's constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly since a 2011 constitutional amendment.
Netherlands constitution protects sexual orientation explicitly since 2022/2023.
Fiji's constitution protects sexual orientation and gender identity explicitly since 1998 for SO and once again since 2010 for GI.
Cuba's constitution protects sexual orientation and gender identity explicitly since a 2019 referendum.
Nepal's constitution protects sexual minorities (which can be interpreted broadly) since 2015.
Bolivia's constitution protects sexual orientation and gender identity since 2008.
Ecuador's constitution protects sexual orientation and gender identity.
Malta's constitution protects sexual orientation and gender identity.
Switzerland's situation is a rather broad protection and hard to interpret and I don't think should be shaded on the map but, I digress.
If you need sources I can provide, but these are all noted on their respective wiki pages. SunnyWinx (talk) 22:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
- Forgot to add of course, the Brazilian, German, American, jurisdictions and one Venezuelan sub jurisdiction that protect can also be mentioned. Nevada in the U.S. became the first state to protect SOGI in 2022, although I don't know when it goes into effect or if it has.
- (Also the British Caribbean overseas territories that already have) SunnyWinx (talk) 22:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2023
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Change the current status on the map of legal identity changes in Russia from permitted (purple) to forbidden (red). Sources: https://apnews.com/article/russia-lgbtq-transgender-procedures-banned-21b88f53b9a74a646400d63ce93bde6f; https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/24/world/europe/putin-transgender-transition-surgery-russia.html. 91.254.94.28 (talk) 23:06, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the page LGBT rights by country or territory. Please make your request at the talk page for the image files concerned. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 05:48, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
Blood donations in Iceland and India
Why do blood donations (in men and women) in Iceland and India contradict themselves? Aminabzz (talk) 10:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
Kenya
The entry for Kenya in the table shows a checkmark under the "Laws concerning gender identity/expression" section. But the site used as reference says in its "At a glance" section that Legal gender recognition is NOT possible. It says, however, that "in 2022, Kenya became the first African country to grant universal rights and recognition to intersex people," which perhaps is what was used to argue for the checkmark? Still, while the rights of intersex people are very important and should be considered, I believe it is misleading at best and an outright lie at worst to say that Kenya's laws protect and recognize gender identity/expression. FranzBarron (talk) 22:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)
"Homosexuality legal" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect Homosexuality legal has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 21 § Homosexuality legal until a consensus is reached. GnocchiFan (talk) 15:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
Recognition of rights
The first para should read:
Recognition of rights affecting lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people varies greatly by country or jurisdiction…
Human rights are universal. Only their recognition changes from one country to another. MakingItSimple (talk) 16:39, 2 September 2023 (UTC)
- Your suggestion makes sense. I think "rights affecting" still makes sense though, as it could refer to other affected legal rights. Happy to hear what you think. 23impartial (talk) 00:13, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
legal or lawful?
The table in the article says that in some countries there is no legislation as regards homosexuality, and notes that in these countries homosexuality is legal. Should't that be 'lawful? I am not a lawyer, although I do have some experience with the law and my understanding is that 'legal' pertains to where a specific law exists, whereas 'lawful' pertains to the general spirit of the law whether or not a specific law exists. I'll wait to see if anyone has any views then might edit this. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think the distinction is incidental and minor enough such that using both within one article would be unnecessarily confusing. Remsense留 06:19, 7 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, @Remsense. Respectfully, though, I do not agree. The words mean different things and the difference isn't incidental, in my opinion. It is relevant that some states have specifically legislated whereas other have not. Justifying an act on the basis of the latter is harder and the lack of specific legislation means there is less likely to be wider protections for gay people. I will wait to see if anyone else has a view. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 07:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think a better alternative to both words being used is a more detailed explanation, rather than the reader just being expected to know the distinction. Remsense留 07:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- That seems like a good idea. Thanks. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 07:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- I've followed advice from @Remsense and added a note at the top of the table to the effect that for simplicity 'lawful' and 'legal' are used interchangeably. I've also edited out the statement that execution is still practised in Nigeria's Bauchi. The supporting reference did not refer to actual executions. It seems that there, like other Nigerian provinces, people are sentenced to death for homosexual acts by sharia courts but this is reduced by the state governor as both sharia and state law apply in these places. This is consistent with the Nigeria reference at the Wikipedia article Capital Punishment for Homosexuality. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 07:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Charlie Campbell 28, thank you for the careful work. Remsense留 08:02, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- If I understand you correctly, your removal was not that the death sentence handed out was untrue, or from an unreliable source (Reuters), but rather based on the distinction between (1) whether the death sentence in Nigeria exists and is still handed down on the one hand, and (2) whether the death sentence eventually results in an execution, on the other. Is that right?
- If so, then I would keep the mention and the citation, but handle it slightly differently in this article. Narrowly, you are not wrong about the distinction, however it is still very appropriate to mention a stoning death sentence by the Nigerian court in this article, along with Hazzad (2022) to cite it. The reason is twofold:
- Per WP:AT policy, this article is about LGBT *rights*, which is related to laws and legal procedures, and the presence of a death penalty for homosexual behavior is legal procedure highly relevant to the article topic; one can hardly imagine something more relevant to LGBT rights in a jurisdiction.
- There's a possibe a WP:RELTIME issue in saying that death sentences *are not* being carried out (as opposed to, "have not been carried out as of <publication date of source>)", as well as whiffs of WP:CRYSTAL: the death sentence is a fact; whether stays, commutations, or successful appeals based on federal-state internal Nigerian politics happen later is always a possibility, but we can't know that based on past performance, and shouldn't speculate about it, nor avoid mentioning the death sentence simply because previous ones haven't been carried out (yet; who's to say they won't be if a state governor changes?). U.S. death sentences in certain states were not carried out for a couple of decades, then they were again.
- It is not irrelevant that death sentences are not carried out (especially to the person concerned!) but unless that distinction is worth a column in the tables (doubtful; do you disagree?) then I would think that the way to handle this is to mention the death sentence along with the citation in the body, and then follow it up with an explanatory note noting that as of X date they have not been not carried out for Y reason; it's best to include the citation again in the note. (If you run into a problem embedding a citation within the {{efn}}, ping me.) Finally, I agree with Remsense regarding the legal/lawful issue. Mathglot (talk) 18:04, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks, @Mathglot. I see the note re: not enforced remains, so that's fine. As for the rest, I'm reading up on the relevant policies to learn and thank you for the helpful comments. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- I've followed advice from @Remsense and added a note at the top of the table to the effect that for simplicity 'lawful' and 'legal' are used interchangeably. I've also edited out the statement that execution is still practised in Nigeria's Bauchi. The supporting reference did not refer to actual executions. It seems that there, like other Nigerian provinces, people are sentenced to death for homosexual acts by sharia courts but this is reduced by the state governor as both sharia and state law apply in these places. This is consistent with the Nigeria reference at the Wikipedia article Capital Punishment for Homosexuality. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 07:53, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- That seems like a good idea. Thanks. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 07:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- I think a better alternative to both words being used is a more detailed explanation, rather than the reader just being expected to know the distinction. Remsense留 07:10, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you, @Remsense. Respectfully, though, I do not agree. The words mean different things and the difference isn't incidental, in my opinion. It is relevant that some states have specifically legislated whereas other have not. Justifying an act on the basis of the latter is harder and the lack of specific legislation means there is less likely to be wider protections for gay people. I will wait to see if anyone else has a view. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 07:04, 9 January 2024 (UTC)