Talk:Katy Perry/Archive 4

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Semi-protected edit request on 8 December 2013

Katy Perry, Section: Personal Life

Please change "She first met Russell Brand in 2009" to "She first met Russell Brand in 2009"

she got divorced from him and that made her very sad and affected her california dream tour — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.203.23.50 (talk) 13:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

(link to wiki added) Videosyncrasy (talk) 21:42, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

 Not done Understandable, but that would be Overlink because he was already linked to in the 2007—2009 section as well as the overview. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 21:51, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Peer Review conclusion

Right, the peer review went well, what I noticed was that the prose was brilliant, but the sourcing was distinctively weaker. As the article expands bear these two points in mind—keep up the high standard of writing, but remember to keep the referencing much tighter. I wouldn't nominate for GA just yet, but I imagine when it is nominated, it should run smoothly. The reason why I wouldn't just yet is because there are things which can be improved that weren't problems (as in necessary to change) but from my experience could better the article.

  • Expand the Early life section significantly—as it stands, I think this section is too summarised. The points are there—Christian background, little exposure to popular music, how she began singing—but I just know there is more that can be said about this and more. What schools did she go to, for example? Do some thorough research.
  • Create a subheading of "Artistry" and put "Public image" and "Musical style and themes" under it. I'd also create a "Awards and records" section—Perry just got her ninth Billboard number one single from three mainstream albums, an impressive feat which deserves to be documented, especially as I can only see there being more. A discussion of the awards/nominations she has received should go here too.
  • The pictures of Madonna/Freddie Mercury are a little big, make them smaller. —JennKR | ☎ 15:42, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for all of your input! It really helped. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 15:46, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I've created an "Artistry" section with the subsections "Influences", "Musical style and themes" and "Public image", and significantly increased the material included from before. I used the Taylor Swift article, a "good artictle", as a guideline, so hopefully it is now sufficient. S△M talk 02:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Question: How would "Public Image" fit under "Artistry" if it doesn't have to do with her music? XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 03:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Genre

Should Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) also be listed as a genre? Besides the 2001 Katy Hudson album, some of her other songs, such as "By The Grace of God", border on CCM. Can someone with editing privileges update it? Thanks. 68.193.17.157 (talk) 06:16, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

You bring up a valid point, even though many people don't consider Katy to really be a Christian artist. I see no reason not to add it. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 04:31, 8 November 2013‎
Hmm...I'm not sure how I feel about this one. While it's true Katy Perry's first album was Christian, her subsequent albums haven't been and, as XXSNUGGUMSXX said, she's not considered a "Christian artist", as it's not her primary genre; a couple of her later songs being borderline Christian doesn't really qualify her as a Christian artist, either, as plenty of artists make the occasional song(s) outside their primary genre. Acalamari 09:16, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
I see several reasons not to add it.
  1. The genres listed in the infobox are to reflect the main thrust of the artist's career.
  2. This artist has never performed in any Christian genre or sub-genre. Katy Hudson did, but Perry has chosen to distance herself form that image.
I have removed it. Feel free to ping me on my talk page if you disagree. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:02, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
I disagree, and I strongly beleive that Christian should be added as a genre. Katy Hudson is the same person as Katy Perry. She uses the name Perry (her mother's maiden name) to avoid confusion with actress Kate Hudson. She has not distanced herself from that genre. In fact, Wikipedia itself lists "Christian pop" as the genre for her song "By the Grace of God". Mitsguy2001 (talk) 04:07, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
it's not every genre she ever performed, it's what reliable sources generally regard her genre as. Katy Perry is not notable for the Christian genre.Flat Out let's discuss it 10:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
However, it was quite prominent in her early career. Biographers make that quite clear. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 13:25, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Somebody again removed "Christian" as a genre. I feel it should be included. To avoid an edit war, we need to have discussion on whether or not Christian should be included. I say it should be included: she has a full album of Christian music, it was important to getting her career started, the album in question now sells online for hundreds of dollars, she includes Christian themes in her later albums, and her song "By the Grace of God" is classified on Wikipedia as Christian pop. I do realize that genres can be difficult to agree on. If you like a particular artist, you want to list genres that you find desirable for them. If you like Katy Perry and you like Christian music, then you want Christian listed. If you like Katy Perry but don't like Christian music, or if you don't like Katy Perry and do like Christian music, then you don't want to list Christian. We need to be as unbiased as possible. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 18:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Genre listings are not based on whether one likes a particular artist/genre. It is based on prominence of use/prominence to career. I personally support listing the genre not based on my opinions of her or the genre itself but because it played a significant part of her early career. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 18:15, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

I have no opinion of the genre itself, please stick to the topic of the thread. This is a biography of a living person so we include only what is notable about the subject and supported by reliable sources. When it comes to music genre we do not include every genre the artist ever performed or recorded - only that which is supported by the majority of reliable sources as notable. Please read about giving undue weight to sources. Flat Out let's discuss it 22:20, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Pop, rock, Christian, dance, and electronic definitely aren't the only genres she has done. How exactly is it undue to add "Christian" if it was prominent in her early career, though? XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
It gives the genre undue weight because the overwhelming majority of sources describe her as Pop/Rock. Please supply sources if you wish to make a case for the genre's inclusion Flat Out let's discuss it 22:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Looks like Flat Out again removed Christian as a genre, even though XXSNUGGUMSXX had a legitimate reason to add it. I'd say that this has now turned into an edit war. What is the procedure for resolving edit wars? I strongly believe Christian should be listed as a genre, but I do not have editting privilges for this page. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 01:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
If you want to learn what an edit war is, please read WP:EDITWAR. Reverting and discussing is not edit-warring. You keep saying you think Christian should be added as a genre but you have ignored every post here that explains why it isn't notable. Flat Out let's discuss it 02:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Of the people posting here who have actually listened to Katy's music, 2 of us (myself and XXSNUGGUMSXX) want Christian added. Only 1 person, Flat Out, does not want it. If nobody else has an opinion, then majority rules, and it should be added. Walter Gorlitz admitted on another page that he has never even listened to a Katy Perry album, so his opinion does not count. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 17:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
As much as I agree the genre should be added, Walter not listening to the music doesn't mean his vote should be discounted. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 17:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Since you agree that Christian should be added, please add it. Thank you. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 20:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
As much as I would like to, a consensus has not yet been reached. The votes are 2 support, 2 object. Wait until more votes have been made and there is not a tie. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 20:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, this is not a vote. Determining consensus is not just a matter of tallying how many people hold each opinion. It's also a matter of evaluating how those positions fit in with Wikipedia policies (like WP:UNDUE and WP:RS). It's entirely possible that no consensus will be reached immediately here, in which case a more formal process, such as requests for comment, will need to be undertaken. —C.Fred (talk) 20:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough. How do we seek a consensus. My reasons for wanting Christian listed as a genre are:
1. Even though her Christian album did not sell well, it is now important historically, since it began her career, and deals with her roots.
2. Her later music does often involve Christian influences, and this has been frequently cited. The most obvious example is "By the Grace of God". I have mentioned other examples too. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 00:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Her history as a gospel artist is covered in the body of the article. As a genre, it isn't notable. Flat Out let's discuss it 01:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm quite confused as to how it would not be notable as a genre if it was the basis for the her career from ages 15 to 18..... XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 01:57, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Once again, if you have sources that support the inclusion of the genre please reveal them here. Secondly, her career from 15-18 wasn't notable - it wasn't until she changed her name and went mainstream that she became successful. Thirdly, her history as a gospel artist is included in detail in the body of the article. Lastly, we do not list every genre we list what the majority of reliable music sources describe her as. Flat Out let's discuss it 02:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with adding Christian as a genre—to me it seems like a niche genre that must pervade through all your music, something that people widely identify you by. For example, when I read over this discussion, my first thought was Cliff Richard and sure enough, contemporary Christian music is listed because he is associated with more than just Christian influences, but actual singing of worship. I think most artists talk about God at some point in their careers, and one of the things that the contemporary Christian music page picks up on in the lead is how lots of artists have been associated with Christian themes/influences, considerably more than Perry, (namely Bob Dylan and Van Morrison) aren't actually considered in the industry (Powell's Contemporary Christian Music). To be frank, I think the current Genres listed are also redundant—is Perry truly a rock or electronic artist? Yes, her music is undoubtedly inspired by these things and I can hear the influences through guitars, drums and synths, but almost all modern pop contains this. And although this is a separate issue to that of whether Christian music should be added, I think editors should read over the pop music wiki page, as I don't think Perry's music expands much beyond that. —JennKR | ☎ 02:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

To add, Wikipedia is always concerned with notabilty. Perry's Katy Hudson was not enough establish her as an artist in any genre, and her rise and maintaining of prominence results from her work in popular music. I think it's clear Perry's work has since deviated from Christian music—one notable song cannot be enough to establish any artist in any genre. Her recent comments about her faith also make me question whether "By the Grace of God" is a a song about a Christian God, as opposed to a God of another faith or a personal God. It would be easy for critics to assume the God she is talking of is Christian because of her background and general assumption. —JennKR | ☎ 02:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Noteworthy enough to include the genre or not, it is very misleading and a common misconception to say she "changed her name", @Flat Out:- her actual name never changed, she just began using her mother's maiden name as a stage name. As for the God she refers to in "By the Grace of God", it might not be the God of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, though it is indeed highly suspected she was referring to that one. One thing that is certain about her music is that she is definitely more than just pop these days, even though iTunes lists the One of the Boys, Teenage Dream, and Prism albums as only "pop". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 03:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Changed her "stage name" then. In the absence of any sources to support a genre change can we move on? Flat Out let's discuss it 03:44, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Very well, we'll leave the genres as they are..... XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 03:48, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Who is the judge on whether or not a consensus was reached? Just because XXSNUGGUMSXX threw in the towel does not mean a consensus was reached. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 00:32, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Mitsguy2001 if you have an alternate view supported by wikipedia policy, then feel free to present it here. Please don't rehash the same argument. Flat Out let's discuss it 02:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
Since I now have editting privleges, I came up with a compromise, by adding Christian, with an explanation. I do not feel that we came to a consensus. Is my edit ok now? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 23:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Another editor has reverted your change. It is difficult to reach consensus if you ignore wikipedia policy and just make a change because it's what you want. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:15, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Reader feedback: her height and weight

99.100.185.105 posted this comment on 13 February 2014 (view all feedback).

her height and weight

Any thoughts?

Mitsguy2001 (talk) 06:43, 16 February 2014 (UTC) I've seen her height listed as either 5'7" or 5'8". Not sure which is correct. Her weight would be impossible, since, like anyone else, her weight is going to fluctuate, and is not a fixed quantity, unlike her height. I doubt that there is any reliable official source that would list it anyway. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 06:43, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

It's probably too trivial to include in the first place unless she starts modeling more often. One KatyCat I spoke with who met her live in June 2011 said Katy listed her height as 5'7", though that may have changed since. Same goes for her weight, which I've seen listed as an estimated 130 pounds. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 07:01, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Her height could be about 5'7" at midnight and 5'8" in the morning. Or halfway in between. Her weight can fluctuate, and most people's weights do. As the reported heights are only slighter taller than average for white American women, I don't think the specifics are notable. If she was unusually short or unusually tall, perhaps it would be worthy of mention, if reliably sourced. But I see no need in this case. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:13, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, though I'm not sure how nationality, race, or ethnicity influence height or weight. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 07:26, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps we are straying off topic, but Human height and many reliable sources show that those factors (genetics and environment) do influence average height. The Dinka people are on average much taller than the Pygmy peoples. And height is definitely affected by childhood nutrition, which is why contemporary South Koreans are significantly taller, on average, than North Koreans of the same age. But this issue doesn't belong in this article, in my view. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:06, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Definitely doesn't belong in this article. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 08:14, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree that it's too trivial to mention. If she were to model, then height might become relevant. If she were a wrestler or basketball player, height and weight would be relevant—and there would also be published sources that list her weight. Right now, I think there's neither significance nor a verifiable source for weight or height. —C.Fred (talk) 13:51, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
Exactly. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 14:15, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Consensus for genres

Mitsyguy2001, XXSNUGGUMSXX—I think you both need to carefully read over what consensus means on Wikipedia. This does not mean we just count votes: it means we must consider all editor concerns and the pertinent aspects of policies that help us reach our decision. Both of your edits were ignorant to the fact that a consensus had not been reached and in fact one of you recognised that in the discussion above. I'm going to take it as you are both unfamiliar with content disputes,and are therefore unaware of third options you can try such as various noticeboards, dispute resolution and requests for comment. For now there is no consensus and attempts to add the content with bracketed explanation will be seen as avoiding consensus as it was made clear by several editors that they believe that the genre should not be added—it would have been much better to suggest the compromise on the talk page first. I know, especially when new to Wikipedia, that the policies are confusing and if you have questions then drop me a message on my talk page and I'll see if I can help/point you in the right direction or to someone who might know. Cheers, —JennKR | ☎ 01:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I didn't add to it, just removed an extra space. Probably should've removed the whole thing, but didn't wanna upset @Mitsguy2001:..... XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 02:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
I do not feel a consensus has been reached. Since a consensus is not likely to ever be reached, I felt a compromise was best. What other options are there at this point? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
As I said above, it's goign to be difficult to reach consensus if you ignore wikipedia policy on notability and undue weight. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:18, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Ok, but how do we come to a consensus? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 06:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
If you want change, then you need to put a case that is supported by wikipedia policy and present it to other editors for feedback. Flat Out let's discuss it 03:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Pentecostal?

In the Public image section the paragraph on Katy's religion states she's Pentecostal, but from her most recent quotes I'd interpret her current beliefs as being spiritual but not really fitting into a particular organised religion. Should that sentence be removed? Samjohnzon (talk) 21:41, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

One can certainly belong to a division of a religion and be spiritual at the same time, so there's no need to remove that sentence. Katy herself has emphatically made clear that she never abandoned her religion or anything. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 22:34, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
She should definitely still be considered Christian, as she still clearly beleives in Christ. She should probably not be listed specifically as Pentecostal, since she likely does not follow Pentecostal practices anymore. 68.193.17.157 (talk) 04:23, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
There is no specific evidence she doesn't follow practices anymore. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 04:59, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Clearly? There is no evidence that she does follow Christian practices, particularly based on her revelations below that she doesn't consider herself to be a Christian. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I think that someone needs to remove her being Pentecostal as a category. She's not a Christian, and Pentecostal is a denomination of Christianity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CCCD:C059:5C6B:EE84:B1:CEF5 (talk) 16:49, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

 Done Also removed "American contraltos" since we agreed not to include that in the article as well. S△M talk 18:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Net Worth

For a while I've been looking for Katy's net worth, and found many different answers. I've been told things like celebritynetworth.com are not reliable, and apparently neither are therichest.com or musiclegends.ca. I would use Forbes, but for some reason it is right now only displaying her yearly earnings and not her total net worth. I feel the net worth should be included given how she's made the Forbes annual listings for most money earned in a year for 2011, 2012, and 2013. So far, the best thing I could find is a Yahoo! article (which I've included in the infobox) from June 2013. If anyone can find a better source for her net worth, by all means go ahead and replace the Yahoo! link with that. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 21:49, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Over the top "descent section"

Her parents: "Keith is of English descent while Mary is of 1/8 Irish, 3/8 Portuguese, 1/4 English, and 1/4 German descent"

3/8 Portugese, 1/8 Irish ... isn't that a bit over the top? Maybe it's because I am not American, but this ethnic classifications to the tiniest bit sound just crazy.

They always come across like some form from apartheid era South Africa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.192.182.154 (talk) 22:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

If need be, the fractions could be removed. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 23:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Its a ridiculous sentence, incorrect, and I doubt it is supported by the source cited. Personally I think sentence could be removed and the article wouldn't have lost anything. Flat Out let's discuss it 01:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Singer-songwriter

Katy is a singer - songwriter I think this would be more correct than recording artist right ?!!

77.44.232.141 (talk) 15:04, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree, I'm not entirely sure why it was changed. Since Katy has written for other artists and she is known for writing her own music, songwriter should definitely be mentioned. S△M talk 16:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
Anyone else's views on including songwriter in the opening sentence? S△M talk 18:52, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I could be wrong on this, but the instances of "recording artist" that I've seen used are to combine "singer" and "songwriter". XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 18:54, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Recording artist doesn't necessarily cover being a songwriter, for example many recording artists don't write their own songs but they are still classified as recording artists. I just think, considering Katy has in the past and continues to write for other artists as well as herself (the most recent being Britney Spears in November) and it's something that she's known for, it should be mentioned. S△M talk 19:09, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Singer-songwriters are usually regarded as also composing their music, not just their lyrics. That hardly happens with Katy. I don't think we should use recording artist, but we should probably request an RfC here. Prism △ 19:12, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
In that case, rather than use "singer-songwriter" we could just use "singer, songwriter" as two seperate professions and get rid of "recording artist", because she fits both of the former. S△M talk 19:27, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I think you should ...

add the one of the Best selling artists to her main article

right??

77.44.232.141 (talk) 14:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

That would need a source. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 16:56, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

but it's in Wiki list of best selling artists with 64 mils certificated units and claims figures 86 million records WW

77.44.232.141 (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

Why?

Why is she an 'infobox person' and not 'musical artist'?--108.64.1.166 (talk) 08:57, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Because "infobox person" is a more flexible template that can incorporate more details such as residence, spouse, net worth, and children. The "musical artist" infobox is embedded into the "person" infobox on this article and many others. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 12:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Vocal range

I know that all of you guys have been debating over about what her vocal range is, whether she is a mezzo-soprano or contralto. I personally think that she has a contralto vocal range because if you listen to her songs, you notice that she can hit those lower husky notes to support her tone. If you think there is not enough proof, there are the sources to prove it:

1. http://dailycollegian.com/2010/09/16/katy-perrys-teenage-dream-disappoints/

2. http://www.dime-co.com/music/Katy-Perry-From-The-beginning-Until-Now.shtml

3. http://www.bsckids.com/2011/06/katy-perrys-california-dreams-tour-expands-with-5-more-shows/

4. http://www.apunkachoice.com/content/article/sid100008588-american_singer_katy_perry_to_hot_up_ipl_opening/

5. http://www.gashu-mag.net/katy-perry-dark-horse/

6. http://www.mix99radio.com/2012/11/25/pitbull/

7. http://www.ontheredcarpet.com/Katy-Perrys-new-album-Prism:-Track-by-track-review/9297239

8. http://rollingstoneindia.com/katy-perry-2/

9. http://www.sanjose.com/2011/08/03/katy_perry_at_hp_pavilion/

10. http://www.teenink.com/reviews/music_reviews/article/401396/Firework-by-Katy-Perry/

11. http://thepartyanthem.com/katy-perry-grew-up-as-a-gospel-singer/

12. http://variety.com/2009/music/reviews/katy-perry-2-1200473923/

As always, think about the sources that I provided to you and talk it over. Sherlock502 (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

no — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.148.219.77 (talk) 22:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

katy perry net worth update

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/katy-perry-net-worth/


that's the same source you had this is the 2014 update

even though it should be 128$mils cuz every year forbes list her noting she make 39$ mils

so with the 75$mils from the 2013 and the 39$ mils

http://www.forbes.com/profile/katy-perry/

= 109$

thx

77.44.232.141 (talk) 11:23, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Celebritynetworth.net is not considered a reliable source. Forbes is currently listing her yearly earnings, which is not the same thing as net worth. Per WP:SYNTH, we can't just combine her Forbes yearly earnings with the current "Yahoo!" source included. What we need is one source that explicitly gives an estimate or exact number, which the "Yahoo!" link provides. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 April 2014

Hi! I was reading the Katy Perry wiki, and I noticed under the "perfumes" section it doesn't include Katy's latest perfume, Oh So Sheer (released in 2014). It was originally released in the UK, but is now being sold in the United States and Canada as of March 2014. Oh So Sheer is a version of the original Killer Queen, but is only for limited time. Thanks! Katycatlove (talk) 00:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Killer Queen perfume is already mentioned in the article, though thanks for the information. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 01:21, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I've been meaning to add info about the Oh So Sheer version of Killer Queen to the Killer Queen by Katy Perry article for some time and hopefully I'll get round to that soon unless anyone else does, but it's not really important enough to be mentioned in Katy's main article since it's just a limited edition version of the original. S△M talk 01:42, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Go ahead and do that Sam. Also, nominating for GA soon :D! XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 02:04, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Excellent, can't wait to start the review process and get the article promoted! :) S△M talk 02:17, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Update: Just added Oh So Sheer to the Killer Queen by Katy Perry article. Thanks for the reminder, Katycatlove! S△M talk 02:57, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Five Number One Hits

The current article on Katy Perry states, "Teenage Dream became the first album recorded by a female artist in history to produce five number-one hits". This is a false statement. The 2003 album Innocent Eyes from Delta Goodrem spawned 5 number-one hits as did 2008 album Point de Suture from Mylène Farmer. The statement can be rectified by stating "Teenage Dream became the first album recorded by a female artist in history to produce five number-one hits in the United States" or more specifically "...on the United States' Billboard Hot 100". Remember that the United States is not the only country in the world that makes music or has official singles charts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wspeltont (talk • contribs) 10:27, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I have now clarified that it was referring to Billboard number-ones. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 08:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)


Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2014

I was hoping there would be a place to have some more information added about potential love interests and maybe a widget on relationship status. Katy Perry Relationship status . You guys always just seem to delete me but I thought people might be interested in real time I know I am. Interested in real time events but I dont want to look too silly god knows vancouver was a nightmare for me. Kevinkatovic (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: This is an encyclopedia article, not a gossip magazine. Potential love interests and other speculation do not belong in the article. It may be appropriate to mention long-term relationships in the personal life section, but only after they've gotten significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 18:50, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Also, I should mention that in the case of this article they would be incorporated in the "Life and career" section. Snuggums (talk • contributions) 18:55, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

RIIA

Top selling digital singles artist ever 72 millions

http://www.usatoday.com/story/life/music/2014/06/26/katy-perry-rides-her-dark-horse-to-riaa-music-history/11400911/

77.44.232.141 (talk) 18:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Already mentioned in the article in the Prism and Achievements sections. S△M talk 20:37, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Influences

I don't remember seeing any other artist pages having images of influences, is this proper (from a MOS standpoint) ? Mlpearc (open channel) 21:54, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed response, but yes this is common to do within articles. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 03:09, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

forbes

http://www.forbes.com/profile/katy-perry/ 2014 list

  1. 9

40$ million

77.44.232.141 (talk) 12:53, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

That's just her yearly earnings, not net worth or anything. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 03:10, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Net Worth

Could you instert katy's net worth of 115 $? source: http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/singers/katy-perry-net-worth/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Matteobuda (talk • contribs) 18:44, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

A more reliable source than "Celebrity Net Worth" would be needed. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 18:49, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Polishing touches

Since the peer review bot closed this before Ritchie333 and Binksternet were able to finish their complete reviews during the peer review, please post additional comments here. I will take this to FAC by the end of the month, and want this to be as high quality as possible beforehand. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 03:25, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm done, thanks. Binksternet (talk) 03:28, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Very well. Feel free to comment during FAC when I start it up. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 03:37, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I was checking in to see whether that's still on the radar. I'd encourage getting an FAC up ASAP, in case you need a second go round. Her 30th is fast approaching. -- Zanimum (talk) 23:13, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Between July 25th and 31st is when I was planning to launch FAC, Zanimum. Her birthday is three months away. Thanks for the advice- I'll start July 25th. She isn't ready just yet but I do plan on going for FAC soon. In the mean time, any suggestions on article content beforehand? SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 23:42, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Prism and IndianBio

First batch from Prism
  • "who is also a singer" — remove also (redundant and doesn't improve flow)
  • Can the second mention of "frequently" be replaced by a synonym?
  • "watching the music channel" — remove music
  • I'm not sure whether "veterans" is suitable in this context. Experienced rock artists would be better in my opinion.
  • "That same month" — remove same (redundant)
  • "Billboard Hot 100" → "US Billboard Hot 100"
  • "One of the Boys was released on June 17, 2008, to mixed critical reviews. The album reached number nine on the Billboard 200" → One of the Boys, released on June 17, 2008, garnered mixed critical reviews and reached number nine on the US Billboard 200.
  • "also achieved" — remove also
  • I can't check the OC Weekly source right now, but does it provide the information relative to number of concerts during the Hello Katy Tour and other stuff on that sentence?
  • "MTV Unplugged announced she had recorded a live album with acoustic performances of several One of the Boys tracks. It also included two new songs, "Brick by Brick" and a cover of Fountains of Wayne's "Hackensack". The live album was released on November 17, 2009" Strange arrangement of sentence. How about:

In (date on which the concert was recorded, which is found on the liner notes I think -- if you don't own them I'm happy to do it for you), Perry recorded a live album featuring acoustic performances of tracks from her debut album, as well as two new songs. (which you can specify on a note -- like those used on Beyoncé (album), as they aren't really that important to the prose of this article)

  • I do know it was recorded July 22, 2009, but that was removed during GAN since Facebook wasn't accepted as a source. I will simply use the album notes themselves. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 19:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Where's the source for 3OH!3?
  • Facepalm Facepalm Must've got lost during the prose structure revamp. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 19:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "The couple became engaged" or The couple married?
  • "mixed reviews" on the Teenage Dream subsection could be reworded so it's not that similar to the sentence on OOTB's critical response

More to come tomorrow. By the way, could you ping me so I don't forget? Haha. pedro | talk 01:21, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Comments from IndianBio
Article is improving much guys, we are doing good progress for the bronze star. Hehe. I have one minor qualm regarding File:PWT_Cropped.jpg. Per the MOS, images should ideally look towards the article and not away from it which this image does. Can't we substitute with a something a little more dynamic from the Prismatic Tour? —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 07:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Sam, maybe File:PWT Prudential Center 1.jpg would do it? And face recognizable is not an issue. We have ample shots of Katy in the article. If we are using an image from The Prismatic World Tour, I would press for something dynamic and showing Perry moving. We already have a guitar shot in the One of the Boys section. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 14:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Second batch from Prism
  • Could "mainstream pop music" be changed? Surely it wasn't just pop music because she wasn't allowed to listen to Queen. This part isn't explicitly discussed in the text either (pop), it only mentions "secular music"
  • "Perry briefly studied Italian opera at the Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara" Why did she quit?
  • It isn't known when she quit, but it was probably because she was busy with Katy Hudson recordings and such SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 21:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Some redundancies here and there, such as (italics) "Growing up, she also took dancing lessons and learned how to swing, Lindy Hop, and jitterbug.
  • "Thank you to everyone who helped make this happen. Ever since I was 9 years old, singing into my hairbrush, I've dreamed very big dreams, but today is bigger than my dreams. What a nice first birthday present for Teenage Dream" would be best in a blockquote, as the paragraph it's inserted in is enormous
  • "Due to conflicting career schedules and Brand wanting children before Perry was ready, he sent her a text message on December 30, 2011, that he was divorcing her after fourteen months of marriage. He never spoke to her again afterwards." This is quite a contentious claim. "According to Perry" or "allegedly" would be a nice addition to this part of the text. I would even consider adding an even more reliable source (WP:QUESTIONABLE), not that Vogue isn't an RS, but there are better ones. pedro | talk 14:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I've reworded this and used Los Angeles Times SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 21:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
  • SNUGGUMS The text part is still presented as a fact, when we don't even know if it's true (my position as a fan doesn't really matter here, and neither does yours or Sam's, for that matter). Perry alleged that, due to conflicting career schedules and Brand wanting children before she was ready, he announced that they were divorcing on December 30, 2011. She later stated that he never spoke to her again after sending her a text message that he was divorcing her. would be a more viable option, in my opinion. pedro | talk 10:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • While it's not as disputed as whether he was—as Mr. Garrison would say—a "two-timing whore" during their marriage, the reason I had it worded as such before your commentary was there was a scene in KP3D where he texted her about naming their son after Ronald McDonald. There was also a part where she says "A baby can't have a baby, and I'm still a baby". In any case, rephrased. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 16:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Prism any other suggestions? SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 21:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Third batch from Prism
  • "On February 13, Perry released "Part of Me", the lead single from Teenage Dream: The Complete Confection, which debuted at number one on the Hot 100" Ambiguous. ("Teenage Dream: The Complete Confection, which debuted at number one on the Hot 100" -- even if albums can't chart on the Hot 100, some readers who know nothing about the subject may be confused.) The sentence could be modified a bit, to "On February 13, Capitol released the lead single from Teenage Dream: The Complete Confection, "Part of Me", which debuted at number one on the Hot 100."
  • "The same month" same is redundant
  • FN173 has MTV italicized and without publisher
  • FN39 should have "iTunes Store (AU)", not just "iTunes"
  • Not entirely sure why the "AU" part is needed, but added "Store" SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 16:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Can't seem to find that bit, please show me found it SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 16:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The Prismatic World Tour image should be positioned at the right of the text, so Katy is pointing at the text.
  •  Done..... though with the image alignment point IndianBio brought up, I've made other image adjustments as well SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 16:28, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The first paragraph of Musical style and themes is almost all without refs!
  • "KatyCats" (clarify that they are her fans) pedro | talk 10:40, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Peer review stuff from Ritchie333

2007–09: Breakthrough with One of the Boys

  • Probably don't need "enthusiastically" recommended
  • Is "online buzz" the right phrase to use here? Perhaps "interest" would suffice
  • What's the JohnJay & Rich show?
  • "Perry achieved her mainstream breakthrough with the release of "I Kissed a Girl" on April 28, 2008" - I don't think "mainstream breakthrough" is the right phrase here, that would be better suited for the week the single topped the charts. Just say "Perry released her first single with Capitol"
  • The third paragraph starts off with prose that can be summarised at "Perry toured here. Then she toured there. Then she toured here." See if you can break the flow up a bit, possibly by combining sentences or just summarising that 2008 / 2009 was a busy touring period for her.
  • The MTV unplugged album should be explicitly linked, and the two sentences combined. I didn't realise the live album was this until I clicked on this link (which should be avoided per WP:EASTER
  • "they had no qualms about her success" - is "qualms" the right word? How about "problems"

2010-12: Teenage Dream

Don't ya dare criticize mah cleavage!
  • "and remains Perry's highest seller." - this may go out of date. I'd possibly just leave this claim out - a 9x platinum release gives it enough weight.
  • "After her scene was uploaded to YouTube earlier, it was criticized for the amount of cleavage" - whom was criticizing her cleavage exactly?
  • YouTube viewers (including parents of young children) SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 13:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • The paragraph re Russell Brand probably wants to go in a "Personal life" section later on.
  • "She was initially so distraught over their divorce that she contemplated suicide" - I checked the Billboard source and the word "suicide" does not appear to be in it. Unless I've made a mistake, per WP:BLP this needs to go immediately.
  • In the second page of that article, it talks about her "suicidal thoughts" following their divorce SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 13:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • I have to say that having "suicidal thoughts" can often be used simply as a metaphor, and being depressed and unhappy does not mean you necessarily want to actually kill yourself. I would err on the side of caution. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • There is a part where she says "I asked myself, 'Do I want to endure? Should I continue living? All the songs are real-life moments. I can only write autobiographically. I put all the evidence in the music. I tell my fans if they want to know the real truth about stuff, just listen to the songs", but if needed I can provide links such as this or this or this which state more directly that she considered suicide. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 18:04, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Perry began an on-again, off-again relationship" - although this is linked, I'm not sure the article linked to is particularly good, and looks like a possible AfD or redirect. "Relationship" will do here.

2013-present: Prism

  • "with then-boyfriend John Mayer" - we already know who he is, per WP:LASTNAME just say "Mayer"
  • As before, the ending of the relationship with Mayer should go into a Personal life section

Artistry

  •  Not done he is already linked in "Katy Hudson and The Matrix" section SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 13:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Ah okay, missed that. But in which case, it wants to be "Ballard" per WP:LASTNAME (unless there's another Ballard in the article I missed). Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:42, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • "Katy Hudson falls within gospel" - "falls within" doesn't sound right, and you might want another source other than the Allmusic review to back it up.
  • The block quotation is a little too long, and may invite accusations of too-close paraphrasing
  • "According to Greg Kot of Chicago Tribune "being taken seriously" - needs a comma before the quotation mark
  • "Perry's ability to relate to her audience through her music has been noted;" - "has been noted" is problematic - see MOS:OPED. I'd leave this sentence out and just go with the direct quotations.
  • "Noted for her unconventional style of dress" - same problem, and honestly, compared to Lady Gaga (let alone Genesis P-Orridge) can you really say this?
  • After this some thought, she is known for unordinary outfits, though her fashion certainly hasn't got as much attention as Gaga's has (aside from the controversy with Sesame Street). Scrapped. SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 18:09, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Is "KatyCats" a recognised term?
  • Maybe not as widely as "DeadHead" or "Trekkie", but it is the official term for her fans SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 13:25, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Not everyone knows what LGBT means (particularly if they think the Daily Mail is a good newspaper)
  • Her use of social media could possibly be collated together into a section, as it seems to be an important part of her career
  • Can't think of a good way to do so right now, but will later on if I come up with one..... SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 18:27, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Achievements

  • This paragraph is a little long, and could be split into two. Possibly with chart stuff first, then grammies and other stuff later

Personal life

  • As stated above, the personal life and relationships section, particularly anything that isn't really directly related to her professional career, should go in a separate section.

Conclusion

That's all I can think of for the moment, if I spot anything else, I'll let you know. Good luck with the FA review. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:47, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Ritchie :D SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 18:43, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
I think she's finally ready, here we go..... SNUGGUMS (talk · contribs) 19:17, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Meaning of Teenage Dream

This is the video where Katy Perry discusses the meaning of "Teenage Dream": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBBtqPclf0

The song is not about teenagers having sex. Please stop reverting my edits. I'm sure that W magazine was well intentioned but incorrect in their interpretation. Katy Perry wrote the song, so she obviously knows how it's interpreted.Mitsguy2001 (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

No, W Magazine clearly talks about the whole album and the statement is their reflection on how Teenage Dream sounds as a whole, they are as much entitled to their opinion as Perry. We vouch for third party sources and give them much more preference than first party ones. And you should not revert once more since you completely have a conflict of interest in the subject and refuse to add anything remotely negative surrounding Perry. Your editing history shows this. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 16:23, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Additionally, we are stating what W described the songs as. Of course there are many interpretations, theirs happens to be one of them. Snuggums (talk / edits) 16:25, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia prefers WP:SECONDARY sources over any others. The Perry description is a primary source. Binksternet (talk) 17:29, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
To be honest, preferring a secondary source (which can make an honest error in interpreting a song) over the words of the artist who wrote the song makes no sense to me. But since it seems to be Wikipedia policy, I will have to adhere to it. Having said that, I agree that any song can have multiple interpretations. So, why should undue weight be given to W Magazine's interpretation? Why can't other interpretations of the song (such as the writer's own interpretation) be added too? I can understand that Katy Perry could have a biased opinion of an older song that caused controversy that she later regretted. But "Teenage Dream" was a then new song that had never caused any controversy, so Katy would have had no reason not to be completely honest about it.
Furthermore, if you read the lyrics of the song, it is very clearly written from the point of view of an adult who is in a very serious relationship, and not the point of view of a teenager. I do not understand why that is considered original research? This isn't an obscure academic journal. It is a very popular song from a very popular album, which almost everyone has heard at some point in their life.
Since some editors are now saying that they were referring to the "Teenage Dream" album as a whole rather than the title track in particular: what songs from the album do you feel are about teenagers having sex? Does Wikipedia have any guidelines as to what is considered a significant topic of an album? For example, months ago (I may have been editing anonymously at the time) on the article for "Prism", I said that several of the songs can be considered Contemporary Christian, or at least religious or spiritual songs. There are many sources that say that about that album, and I did cite valid sources. But that was deleted, despite the sources, saying that the album as a whole is not a Christian album, and the Christian (or at least religious / spiritual) themes are not very prominent on the album. Ok, fair enough. But the article still says that the album prominently features Swedish dance music, and has a valid source. The majority of the songs are not Swedish dance songs, but that comment remained, although, as I said, my comment about Christian influence was deleted. So, my question is, what are Wikipedia's guidelines as to what is considered a prominent theme on an album? And, does sex between teenagers really count as a prominent theme on "Teenage Dream", given that most of the songs have nothing to do with sex, yet along sex between teenagers?
Also, to clear some things up: Yes, I am a big fan of Katy Perry. But she is very far from perfect, and I know that. I do not feel that I have any conflict of interest, being just a random fan who has never met her and has no connection with her. It is not true that I have been trying to delete references to sexual content in her songs. "Teenage Dream" (the song) is definitely about sex; I have never denied that. But it is between sex between adults who are in a very serious and committed relationship, not between teenagers. On the other hand, I do feel that people on Wikipedia try to delete references to any Christian influence in her music. I don't know if those editors are Christians who dislike Perry and don't want to be associated with her, or non-Christians who somehow don't think Christianity is cool, or some combination of the two. It doesn't help that Katy Perry's fanbase is unusually diverse (she is popular with Christians, gays, teenage girls, etc), and everybody seems to interpret her songs differently, depending on their biases.
In any case, I strongly believe that the line about "Teenage Dream" (whether the song or the album) being about sex between teenagers should be deleted from this article, since it is about Katy, and not about the interpretation of a particular song or album. Alternatively, if that comment is to remain, I feel that alternate interpretations should be added. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 16:43, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Haven't seen any responses. I don't want to get blocked again, but I am still not satisfied with that comment about Teenage Dream. At a minimum, I want to make it more clear that the interpretation about sex between teenagers is just one interpretation, and I want to include an alternate interpretation. Will I be allowed to make that edit, as long as I don't completely delete W Magazine's interpretation, and as long as I cite my source for an alternate interpretation? Am I allowed to cite Perry's interpretation, even though it's a primary source, as long as I make it clear that it's the artist's interpretation? If nobody responds here, how long do I have to wait before I can make this edit without fear of being blocked again? Thank you. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 01:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. If you have other sources giving different interpretations, list them here. If citing Perry herself, we can't use a YouTube link- those tend to be discouraged due to potential copyright concerns. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
This is one of the sources that the Teenage Dream article cites:
http://www.mtv.com/news/1644311/katy-perry-says-new-single-teenage-dream-exudes-euphoric-feeling/
Mitsguy2001 (talk) 02:17, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
That article is more about the song than the album, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 02:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Please answer this question: which songs on the album are about teenagers having sex? Also, how many songs are needed for it to be considered a prominent theme? Remember, my mention (as an anonymous user) of Christian influence on "Prism" was deleted for not being a prominent enough theme, despite there being multiple sources on that topic. So, under those guidelines, a single source saying that "Teenage Dream" (the album) prominently features sex between teenagers does not mean it should be included in this article. And, I still argue that interpretations of a song or album, especially one that contradicts the artist's own words, does not belong on this page. I felt that just deleting the interpretation would be a compromise. But it seems that I have a de facto lifetime ban on deleting that comment, since I was threatened with a longer block if I removed it again. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 02:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
If I had to guess, I'd say W is referring the title track as well as "Last Friday Night" and "Peacock", while sexual bits can be heard in "California Gurls" and "Circle the Drain". Keep in mind that love is also listed as a theme, tracks like "Teenage Dream" and "The One That Got Away" being examples. As for Prism, list sources for those before any inclusion. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Is that enough to consider sex between teenagers to be a prominent theme on the album? "Peacock" is really the only song to focus on sex, although it is not clear how old the narrator of the song is. "Circle the Drain" is about Katy's ex-boyfriend, Travie McCoy, and they were both adults at the time that they were dating. "Last Friday Night" is more about partying than sex, and it's not clear how old the narrator is. The video portrays the narrator as a 13 year old girl, but the lyrics mention having a boss and having a car, which a 13 year old would not have, but an older teenager could have. "California Gurls" does have the line "sex on the beach", but it's not clear if it's referring to the drink of that name, or literally sexual intercourse on a beach, but the line "we'll melt your popsicle" could be taken as sexual innuendo. But again, it's not clear if the narrator is a teenager or not. I'm not going to rehash the "Prism" argument, since it was clear that the majority disagreed with me, and I respect that consensus, although I don't agree with it. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 04:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Note how I said bits. The "bits" in this case involve "fall asleep during foreplay". For all we know, critics may have viewed other tracks of hers as sexual as well. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:43, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
This conversation is based on the false assumption that "teenager" and "adult" are mutually exclusive concepts. Perry is an American, and in the US, 18 and 19 year olds are both teenagers and adults. So, large numbers of teenage adults have sex constantly in the US. I certainly know I did at that age, and my parents were married at 20 and I was born shortly thereafter. They were married 47 years, so it was serious for them. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:57, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
As it turns out, just about every person I've ever met (including those from the United States) has identified only as adults once they reach age 18. Not sure if she identified as a teenager at 18 or 19, or if critics identified the song's subjects as such either for that matter. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The definition of teenager vs adult doesn't matter here. Katy was in her early 20s when dating Travie McCoy, so "Circle the Drain" is not teenagers. "Teenage Dream" is about Katy's relationship with Russell Brand, neither of whom was a teenager at the time of their relationship. We have no idea how old the narrator is in "California Gurls" or "Peacock". I think that there is enough of a question that W Magazine's interpretation should be deleted. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 05:29, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Mitsguy, keep the WP:OR to yourself. Provide source and exact change what you want to achieve, do not go around discussing trivial things. You all are forgetting the WP:V policy. We do not report the truth, rather what we can verify through third party reliable source. If enough reliable sources calls the album theme to be about sex between dinosaurs, we list it as such (This is an example, bite me). So list different sources here and discuss what they say, just an MTV link won't do. And Mitsguy, onus is yours to find sources and do not call W magazine or any other reputed sources as trivial unless you can prove so at WP:RSN. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 05:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia is useless if it doesn't report the truth! Again, as a compromise, I keep suggesting to just delete the comment completely. The "dispute resolution" section of Wikipedia says to find a compromise. I seem to be the only person here even attempting at finding a compromise. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 06:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

(→) Well if you are that bothered about the "useless" website, then probably this is not a place for you. And this is not a dispute, this is pure original research from your side, without even the ability to provide reliable sources counter-challenging it. You seem to not understand that we do not tolerate WP:OR here. So it does not matter what you think about W magazine or the content they published. Not only me, but Snuggums also asked you to list all sources. Until you can do that, this discussion is moot. Take your time and go find sources, then come and revisit this discussion. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 06:28, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I did provide 2 reliable sources, and you rejected both of them. W Magazine is a fashion magazine, not a music magazine, so I don't see how it's reliable for this topic. In any case, the article talks about sexual innuendos in general in her songs, and not specifically about sex or love between teenagers; that phrase is never used. As a compromise, I offer this: we can keep the "odes to adolescent lust wrapped up in irresistible hook-laden melodies" since that is a direct quote from the magazine, but it should be made very clear that W is a fashion magazine, and that it is just their interpretation. The line about love between teenagers is not mentioned anywhere in the W Magazine article, so it should be replaced with a line saying that her songs often include sexual innuendos. Also, it should be made more clear that the article is discussing the "Teenage Dream" album, and not the title track in particular. I propose this as the exact line:
Many of her songs, particularly on the Teenage Dream album, include sexual innuendos; Fashion Magazine W described them as "odes to adolescent lust wrapped up in irresistible hook-laden melodies".[26]
I feel that this more accurately describes what the article actually said, and it makes it clear that W is a fashion magazine, not a music magazine (strangely, you rejected my music-related sources), and it clarifies that the article is discussing the album, and not the title track. I feel that this would be completely non-POV, since it is basically just quoting the article in question without editorializing. Can we accept this as a compromise? Thank you. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 12:40, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, where did you provide two sources? I see only the MTV link and that was refuted because of being a first hand source and not a third party view (I won't go to that explanation). And there's no need to make it clear that W is a fashion magazine, a mere wikilink suffices. But yes, the proposal seems something that we can agree on. Snuggums if you agree I will make the change. —Indian:BIO · [ ChitChat ] 13:08, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, we can simply say the album contains sexual innuendos. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks like we've come up with a reasonable compromise. It was rough getting there, but we did work things out in the end. Thank you. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Voice Type

This article says that Katy Perry has a contralto voice type. That could be; I'm not saying it's wrong. I have definitely seen sources saying contralto, but I have also seen sources saying mezzo-soprano and even soprano. Her vocal range definitely includes all 3 ranges. My understanding is that these voice types only refer to operatic singers, not pop singers, and that the range that a singer can sing operatically is much less than what can be sung in pop songs. Katy Perry has had operatic training, so it is reasonable to include a voice type for her. But are there any sources as to what range she can sing operatically, as opposed to in pop songs? Further complicating things is that I believe that a vocal range refers to the range that the singer is most comfortable with. As far as I know, there wouldn't be any way to know what range Katy is most comfortable with, unless she has stated herself.

Anyway, is there a reliable source saying that Katy's voice operatically would be a contralto? If not, since she is a pop singer, should the vocal type be removed completely? Or, if you want to include contralto as her pop range (if such a concept even makes sense), should we mention that some sources have listed her voice as mezzo-soprano, or even soprano? Or are those sources somehow less reliable than the ones that say contralto? Should it be mentioned that her pop range includes all 3 ranges, probably explaining various sources listing different ranges? I assume that it's very common for a female pop singer's voice to include all 3 female ranges, even if she can't sing them all operatically. So, how is that usually dealt with on Wikipedia? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 02:20, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

For KP, I haven't found anything about her opera range. I've seen some suggest she's mezzo myself, but don't have access to such sources at the moment. A while ago, there was a dispute over voice range which decided to not mention range at all until one user found several sources supporting contralto. More research could be done, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 03:05, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Sounds to me like her voice type should be completely removed, or possibly mention that it's a matter of dispute, since, at least in pop songs, she can sing in all 3 ranges. It is extremely unlikely that there will ever be a source for her operatic range since although she had operatic training, she never sang professionally in an opera. And again, if we define the voice type as which range she is most comfortable with, only Katy herself can answer that question, and I don't think she ever has. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 04:00, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
UPDATE: Looking through again, I can't find any reliable sources giving anything other than contralto. Aside from fan sites, forums, and such, iTunes and YouTube seem to be the only sources talking about her range. Contralto was added since it was the only one that could be reliably sourced, and has multiple references. I also don't think this article could be as comprehensive as it is without this bit. If you ever find any reliable sources saying things other than contralto, though, feel free to share them. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:33, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Fair enough. But how do you explain that her listed range incorporates notes in all 3 female vocal ranges? There is sheet music available for all or most of her songs, which would be a reliable source, so it's not original research. Many of her songs include high notes that are well outside of a contralto range. Are these reliable sources saying that she can only sing operatically in a contralto range? That could be, but have these reliable sources heard her sing an opera? I haven't, nor has the vast majority of the population. Is it even reasonable to assign a vocal type to a pop singer, even one who has had operatic training? Or, has Katy herself ever said that the contralto range is the one that she is more comfortable with? I don't think anyone other than Katy herself could make that judgment, since only Katy would know what range she is most comfortable with. Again, I am not necessarily disagreeing that her vocal range is contralto, it's more that I guess I just don't quite understand the concept of voice types / vocal ranges for a pop singer, and I am not sure whether contralto is her alleged voice type as a pop singer or as an opera singer (even though she has never professionally sang an opera). Mitsguy2001 (talk) 17:33, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
She hasn't commented on her own range, so my guess is that critics described her most commonly used type. As for inclusion of range, it seems to be standard to include with available sources even if not in opera. She did once briefly study Italian opera, but not enough to go into opera professionally. Snuggums (talk / edits) 17:40, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Are these critics reliable sources, and have they heard every one of her songs? I have seen critic sites that very clearly have not heard the vast majority of her songs, and were basing her range on one or two individual songs. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 17:46, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
If they weren't reliable, they wouldn't be included. As I said, their words are likely generalizations. We can't twist around words from sources to something it doesn't say per WP:SYNTH. Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

well every word I read is true but logically she is not contralto and this site has updated her voice type you should take this in mind 

 Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).  http://www.divadevotee.com/2010/11/katy-perry-vocal-profile-range.html Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).

and her range is not in a contralto voice type at all so either remove the voice type or approve on the info i gave and the site is not a fan site or ruled by immature people they all are professional 77.44.187.36 (talk) 22:09, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

It might not be a fansite, but I'm not convinced "Diva Devotee" is reliable. If you have other sites (such as anything from the "recommended" list at WP:ALBUM/SOURCES), they might be worth looking into. Snuggums (talk / edits) 23:06, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Snuggums said: "If they weren't reliable, they wouldn't be included." What makes Snuggums the judge as to what sites are reliable and what aren't? I agree, however, that Diva Devotee is not a reliable source. I honestly do not feel that Katy's vocal range should be listed since she is not an opera singer, her pop range includes all 3 female ranges, and whether or not you can even assign a vocal range to a pop singer is a matter of dispute, much less what vocal range she should be. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 03:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't say there are any official "judges" for reliability so much as instinct. Removing a range would make the article incomplete. If either of you have sources (such as anything from the "recommended" list at WP:ALBUMSOURCES), present them here. I will grant that the sources used are reviews from the One of the Boys era, but nothing more recent has come up since early 2009. It would be best to use the most recent available. I would say to consult Sherlock502, the user who originally found them, but that user has retired. However, the user's rationale can be found at Talk:Katy Perry/Archive 4#Vocal range. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:17, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I guess I still don't understand the concept of a voice type for a pop singer, and nobody has explained it. How does a pop singer have a voice type if they can sing pop songs that span all 3 ranges? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 16:56, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Family struggled financially?

This page (and admittedly several sources) say that Katy's family struggled financially. While I do realize there are sources saying that, there are other reliable sources (including other Wikipedia pages) that suggest otherwise? First of all, Katy's mother, Mary Hudson, was from an upper class background. Both of her parents were wealthy, as was her brother. Also, much of what I have heard about Katy's early life, from reliable sources, suggests a middle to upper middle class lifestyle. There was an episode of MTV Hoods showing the house where she lived as a teenager, and even mentioned the name of the street. I looked up real estate listings for comparable houses in that area, and they go for at least $800,000. Not exactly poverty level. Also, Katy was in private schools (which are not typically affordable to the lower class) through 8th grade. And when she was finally in public school in 9th grade, she was at one of the best high schools in the nation, according to Wikipedia, which would certainly raise the property values in the area. Furthermore, it seems that Katy spent her childhood taking music and dancing lessons, as well as attending camps, and even taking surfing lessons. If her family was truly struggling, she would have had a fast food job to help support her family. Finally, before Katy had her big break, it appears that her parents were financially supporting her, at least in the few years after Katy Hudson failed, which they would not have been willing or able to do if they were truly poor. I do know that eventually (maybe 2007 or so) Katy did hit bottom financially and her car was impounded and she asked her brother for money (which he did not have), but her parents likely cut her off at some point before that. I find the notion that Katy struggled financially to be dubious, especially given what is known about her mother's family. I realize that people like a "rags to riches story", but I feel that some sources may overplay some financial difficulties in order to make her family appear poorer than they really were. Even if Katy's parents' income would have put them below the poverty line, the family almost certainly inherited money from Katy's mother's parents when they died (both died before Katy was born). So saying that they struggled financially is extremely misleading. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 17:43, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

From what she told GQ, money was an issue growing up, though she didn't specify whether this was just early years or teenage years or anything. Also, please list your sources. Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
My impression of Katy's statement was not that she grew up in poverty, but rather that she was not quite as affluent as others in Santa Barbara. In any case, the fact that her mother's family was extremely affluent has to be somehow dealt with. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 03:53, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
You need to provide sources for her mother growing up wealthy, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:01, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
This is the Wikipedia page for Katy's mother's brother. Check the "early life" page where it describes his parents. They clearly were wealthy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Perry Mitsguy2001 (talk) 04:19, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
It mentions nothing about their finances, or how things were when Mary grew up. We can't just make guesses like that. Besides, it barely even mentions Mary herself, and is an underreferenced article. Snuggums (talk / edits) 04:27, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Charles Schwab was obviously wealthy. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 04:56, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Wealth is not automatically inherited from family, though. If asserting that Mary grew up wealthy, you need sources saying so explicitly. Also, children don't necessarily grow up with the same wealth their parents did. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:02, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Years Active

For Years Active, why does it say 1997-Present? Katy's first album ("Katy Hudson") was released in 2001, not 1997. Katy would have been only 12 years old for most of 1997 (she would have turned 13 on Oct. 25, 1997), and I've never heard that she was "active" in the music industry at that age. The page definitely makes no reference to any way that she was active at that age. Shouldn't it be changed to 2001-Present? Mitsguy2001 (talk) 05:24, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

The reason I used that was that she began taking her performances public at 13 after getting her first guitar. It's very understandable to suggest 2001–present, though keep in mind she left school for music at 15 to begin Katy Hudson. With that being said, "1999–present" would be more accurate than 2001. I will change to 1999. Snuggums (talk / edits) 05:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
1999 makes sense. 1997 made no sense, since otherwise, anyone who sings in church could be considered "active". However, are you sure she began Katy Hudson in 1999 and not 2000? I agree that every source said she was 15, but remember, she turned 15 in late 1999, on Oct. 25, 1999, so she would have been 15 for most of 2000. Also, she herself has said that she spent one semester at Dos Pueblos High School, and she would have started there in 1999. In high schools in the US, first semesters usually end in January, implying that Katy left Dos Pueblos High School to start her music career in January 2000. The 2014-15 calendar for Dos Pueblos High School shows the first semester ending Jan. 23, 2015. In 1999-2000, the semester probably ended around the same time, again, implying that Katy would have left school in 2000, not 1999. Even if she left high school just before Christmas break, it is likely that Katy wouldn't have left California to start working on the album until after New Years, again, in 2000. Do you have a reliable source for 1999? If not, since there are reliable sources saying she was 15, it would be sometime between Oct. 25, 1999 and Oct. 24, 2000, most likely in January 2000, so I would suggest "circa 2000" as the start date. (circa 1999 would be acceptable, but 2000 is the most likely year). Mitsguy2001 (talk) 05:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I should've been more specific- I meant that she started performing for money in public at 13. As for the month she left school, I'll look for the school's 1999–2000 calendar for when semesters began/ended. That should give an idea. I'm fine with "c. 1999" or "c. 2000" if no schedule information can be found, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 06:09, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Do you mean she was performing at the farmer's market in 1997? I wouldn't count that as being active, since that was likely informal (people would enjoy hearing her sing and give her a few bucks) rather than formal employment. Where are you going to get a copy of Dos Pueblos High School's 1999-2000 calendar? In 2014-15, given that the semester ends Jan. 23, 2015, which is deep into January, it's extremely unlikely that in 1999-2000 it would have ended in December. And, as I said, even if the semester ended in December, it would have been just before Christmas, so Katy would not have left California to start working on the album until after the Christmas / New Years holidays. In 1999, Christmas fell on a Saturday, so her last day of school before Christmas was likely Thursday, Dec. 23, 1999. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 06:15, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
By the way, I can't find the calendar for 1999-2000 (the web archive for that page doesn't seem to go back too far), but I did find 2004-2005, the next school year that had a Saturday Christmas, and it lists the 1st semester ending on Jan. 28, 2005. In all likelihood, in 1999-2000, the semester ended Jan. 28, 2000.
https://web.archive.org/web/20041220195621/http://www.dphs.org/calendar0405.pdf
Mitsguy2001 (talk) 06:22, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I was referring to the market performances, but only because it was how she began earning money. After giving more thought, however, it indeed probably isn't formal employment. As for 1999/2000, I couldn't find any viable sources explicitly mentioning which year she left school in. However, Yahoo! Music says that her high school portrait was from 2000, so it looks like that was more likely despite her dropping out of school. Let's see what others have to say before making further changes, though. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:51, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
If she was still in high school for any part of 2000, then her career started in 2000, not 1999. Again, I would go with "circa 2000" since while there is no absolute proof that it was 2000, I don't see any way that it could have possibly been 1999. Mitsguy2001 (talk) 16:59, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
"Circa 2000" it is. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
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