Talk:Eighth generation of video game consoles/Archive 4

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A possible approach to the Switch

Please see this IGN article released today about the Switch sales #s, directing attention to the line "The Switch will win out if it can maintain its remarkable momentum, but that’s far from a sure thing. To see why, let’s look at the last generation of consoles (including Wii U)...."

Now, traditionally, we've slotted the Wii U with 8th gen, not 7th gen, but if one considers it a 7th gen (yes, along with the Wii), then that makes the Switch an 8th gen, particularly since it is fairly frequently compared to XBox One and PS4. However, I know the Wii U has not been traditionally put in 7th gen, but it does make sense.

So, the idea I had is if we acknowledge that the Wii U could be classified as both 7th gen and 8th gen (8th gen before the Switch, then treated more as 7th gen once the Switch's capabilities came out), we don't break any current comparisons on this page, we can add the Switch to this page, and we'd just need to add a duplicate entry for the Wii U on 7th gen.

We'd probably need more sources for this but I feel this is a working solution since no one has really talked of a ninth generation now that we are 9 months from the Switch's release. (Though similar searching show little to justify it 8th gen). Similarly, the Wii U as a 7th gen console is not readily there but it is an idea. And given no move on MS or Sony on a new new console, and how frequently the Switch is compared with XO and PS4, I think this is the right solution that just needs stronger source considerations. --Masem (t) 20:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

I'm becoming comfortable with Switch being placed as 8th gen, and we could probably move forward with it. I'm not entirely sure I'd agree we have enough sourcing to add Wii U to 7th gen though. Nothing precludes a manufacturer from having two consoles in a general "era"... There's certainly no need to move quickly on that. -- ferret (talk) 22:21, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Seconded. I agree that it's rather apparent that no one considers there to be a 9th gen, even after Xbox One X's launch, though. Sergecross73 msg me 22:47, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, maybe right now, all we worry about is putting the Switch as 8th (but let's give it to its anniversary in March just to make sure). I do however, keep the idea open that as more sources accept the Switch as 8th they may retroactively slot the Wii U as 7th. If that does end up being the case, then we can maybe talk duplication of the Wii U as needed, but that's less an issue than putting Switch as 8th in the short term. --Masem (t) 23:17, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. Especially with likely "1yr Retrosoective" articles that journalists will probably write around that time. Sergecross73 msg me 00:32, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Either that, the end of this month with Nintendo's Q3 results that might show the Switch outselling the Wii U, and if not then, by late April for the full FY results. But definitely Real Soon Now. --Masem (t) 00:44, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

An interesting wrench thrown into our progress, potentially. Current report from Microsoft general manager made this statement: But yes Xbox outsold PS4 in December for Gen 8 consoles according to NPD data, while Nintendo also had a great month as Switch had most overall units. That wording kind of makes it sound like they don't classify Switch as 8th gen. That being said, it also could be a "marketing spin" thing too, where they're just trying to "discount the competition as to declare themselves the best sellers" or something too. It doesn't necessarily change my stance, but it's another thing to factor, especially if third parties start echoing that sort of approach. Sergecross73 msg me 15:22, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

I would still be comfortable at this point including the Switch on this table (pending its year anniversary to check sources), and if/when 9th generation is definied and the Switch is re-classified as that, then we can move it there. --Masem (t) 16:09, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, I think this comment is more of an outlier. Still, wanted to have it for consideration for when we finally try to make a call on it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:16, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

It's also possible they worded it that way by treating Switch as a handheld/hybrid, i.e. not a traditional home console. Note this is a tweet from a Microsoft rep, not the actual NPD statements. Very likely just marketing speak to say "We beat PS4!", while acting as if Switch isn't direct competition. -- ferret (talk) 16:11, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, that's sort of what I was trying to say. You said it better. Sergecross73 msg me 16:16, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, Microsoft and Sony don't really consider Nintendo to be competing directly with them, hence the wording of that tweet. Don't think that impacts your potential decision to put the Switch in the 8th gen, though. As others have said, it's just marketing speak. Wicka wicka (talk) 18:49, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Not to start a whole thing, but...I'm re-reading that IGN article and I don't think it was actually attempting to reclassify the Wii U as a 7th gen console. I think they were just saying "let's look at sales figures for 7th gen consoles and the Wii U," because those are the most recent consoles for which they have lifetime sales figures. Wicka wicka (talk) 15:17, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

But the Wii U is 8th gen. Calling it 7th gen would be original research (and false). --Jv110 (talk) 05:28, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Placing it just about anywhere would be original research, which is one of the reasons why it hasn't been placed anywhere yet. Sergecross73 msg me 05:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Did you misread his comment and think he meant the Switch? Obviously the Wii U is included in this very article. Regardless, Jv110, what Masem was suggesting was that IGN's article could be considered a first step towards the gaming community potentially reclassifying the Wii U as a 7th gen console. This wouldn't be original research, as it's the exact same way generations are defined today: through broad consensus in the gaming community. I don't think this is going to happen, nor do I think that's what IGN was suggesting (as I explained above), but it's nonetheless a fair point to raise.

That's the problem. There's absolutely no reason to reclassify the Wii U as a 7th gen console. It makes no sense, especially as it was released very near the other 8th gen consoles. --Jv110 (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: Earlier you seemed to agree that we should include the Switch in this article after its one-year anniversary next month. Is that still the plan? Wicka wicka (talk) 15:19, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I think the key is to see what sources come out when the Switch turns 1 next month (which given its explosive growth, will undoubtably come) and see if they classify it then. --Masem (t) 15:23, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

This has been my problem with this discussion from the very beginning: sources VERY rarely go out of their way to "classify" any console as part of a specific generation. It's just an assumption that when a glut of new consoles are released, it's a new generation. Given the fact that there's been virtually no broad acceptance in the community of a 9th generation existing, how can we consider the Switch anything but 8th gen? Not including it in this page is original research by omission.

Guys, we cannot keep delaying the inevitable. Make a decision: 8th gen, 9th gen, or rewrite all these pages to stop relying on such a tenuous concept. Refusing to make a choice is not a solution. Wicka wicka (talk) 15:51, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

The whole generation thing, to the best we can tell, is a WP:CITOGENESIS from us (the VG project). We adapted the "Nth generation" concept to group consoles (which did adapt from the idea of the 8-bit and 16-bit generation terms already in play); others caught on and used this, and now serves as the point of reference for the industry. We can't rush to make a change here to avoid causing the same problems. --Masem (t) 15:54, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

You've already rushed to make a change. By refusing to include the Switch in this article you have decided that it is not an 8th gen console. I'm sorry, but you haven't found a loophole here. If the Switch isn't an 8th console, then it's a 9th console, or you're saying generations are over. You are not avoiding the problem, you are compounding it. I'll say it again: refusing to make a choice is not a solution.

As far as I am aware, there are little to no sources that support the Switch being 9th gen, and there are little to no sources that support an end to console generations. If that's the case, we must consider the Switch an 8th gen console. I don't know how you can arrive at any other conclusion. Wicka wicka (talk) 16:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

There is no deadline. It will be added when we have a reasonable number of sources to be sure we're putting it in the right place. --Masem (t) 16:32, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

You're not listening to me, and I don't how much simpler I can make this explanation. You have already made your decision. You have decided that the Switch is not an 8th gen console. When a reader comes to this page, they are not familiar with our stupid little arguments. They see that the Switch is not listed, and the information they get is that the Switch is not an 8th gen console. They don't think, "Oh, I guess Masem is still deciding."

If the Switch is not an 8th gen console, then it is either a 9th gen console, or generations no longer exist. Do you think the Switch is 9th gen, and have sources to support that? Do you have a plan for reorganizing all these articles? If you answered "no" to both, you must agree to include the Switch here. There is literally no way around this. I hate to keep repeating myself, but you have not found a loophole. Wicka wicka (talk) 16:48, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

It's original research to say "If it's not 8th, it must be 9th". There's been ideas that there may be an 8.5th generation to cover the Xbox and PS console refreshes and the switch. Of course, that has minimal sourcing too. So if we can't say anything we shouldn't include it at all. --Masem (t) 16:56, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

And next time you link WP:DEADLINE, please actually read it, and consider scrolling down. Wicka wicka (talk) 16:50, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

We can't engage in dispute resolution until we have sources to base a dispute on. There's practically no sources either direction of how to catalog the Switch; once that happens, then we should discuss. --Masem (t) 16:56, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm not dropping this until a decision is made. If you think the Switch is a 9th generation console, please provide a source. If you want to reorganize all the articles to remove the generational concept, I will gladly help you. If you don't want to do either of those things, then the Switch is an 8th generation console. You cannot avoid that logical conclusion. Wicka wicka (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

And honestly, in no way does WP:DEADLINE support your stance. In many ways it actively conflicts with what you're trying to do. And there are other elements of Wiki policy that even more explicitly disagree with you; copy and pasting WP:DEADLINE over and over is a meaningless gesture. There is a deadline, and it is now. What do you want to do? Wicka wicka (talk) 17:02, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Provide a source that it's 8th generation. That's the bottom line. "If it's not 9th, it must be 8th" is practically the definition of original research. -- ferret (talk) 17:06, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I want to be extremely clear about what I'm saying, because all of you are extremely stubborn, and you're already starting to be dishonest about my stance. I am not saying that I personally believe the Switch is or isn't an 8th generation console. I'm saying that you all are objectively incorrect when you claim you are not making a decision. By refusing to include the Switch in this article, you are explicitly telling your readers that the Switch is not an 8th gen console. Without sources to suggest that it is 9th gen, or that generations no longer exist, that is original research. I am willing to support whatever decision we make, so long as we actually make a decision. Either the Switch is 8th gen, or it is 9th gen, or we get rid of generations. Which one is it? Wicka wicka (talk) 17:18, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I haven't made such a claim. We did make a decision. The decision was, at this time, sourcing does not support listing Nintendo Switch as an 8th generation console. It's a clear and policy based decision. Everything on Wikipedia must be sourced, which seems to be where you are confused. It does not become 8th generation by default because sourcing for 7th or 9th generation don't exist. Wikipedia reports what sources are saying. Sources weren't saying it is 8th generation, so neither are we. You seem to be stuck on this either/or concept coupled to "or everything is over". There are only two possibilities to discuss here: Is Switch 8th generation or not? Whether or not a 9th generation or a "half generation" like 8.5 ever is recognized by sourcing is independent of that. If you want to discuss the very concept of generations, the project talk page is over here. -- ferret (talk) 17:33, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

The PS4 Pro and Xbox One X are new versions of the consoles, not successors. It doesn't make sense to create a "generation 8.5" when just new versions and not successors. The original version of each console is still the main one. Or rather, new and cheaper versions of the original version, PS4 Slim and Xbox One S. In any case, there can't be a "generation 8.5" under these conditions. --Jv110 (talk) 17:54, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

wicka wicka - Stop being dramatic and giving ultimatums. We're not doing anything without consensus. Full stop. The hope was that by the one year anniversary, there'd be enough retrospective sources to make a call, that's all. And yes, there idea that Wii U is 7th gen has garnered little to no support, and very few, if any, sources mentioned these "half generations", so I'd think they are unlikely directions we'd go in. Sergecross73 msg me 19:07, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Source list

So I have looked for sources about if the Switch is 8th generation and here is what I found to help resolve the debate. Hopefully this helps. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 18:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Link	Source	Section from article that can help classify which generation Nintendo Switch falls into
September 7, 2017	TechRadar	"Rockstar Games has confirmed that a remaster of LA Noire is coming to current generation systems (including the Nintendo Switch), as well as a special VR version featuring seven cases from the original game. "
October 19, 2017	Press Release	“In September, the Nintendo Switch system was once again the top-selling current-generation console hardware, according to the NPD Group, which tracks video game sales in the United States.”
October 23, 2017	VentureBeat	“Sony’s PlayStation 4 led all hardware platforms in consumer spend during September 2017,” NPD analyst Mat Piscatella explained. “Nintendo Switch sold the most units among the current generation consoles.”
November 11, 2017	Fortune	"That performance, plus the new production plans, would put the Switch on track to compete with, or even beat, the most successful consoles of the current generation."
December 12, 2017	Metro.co.uk (Metro Gaming in partnership with Game)	'Since the release of the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X it’s not even clear whether normal generational rules still apply, especially as the Switch is technically Nintendo’s second home console this generation."
January 9, 2018	IGN	"Does it mean the Nintendo Switch will become the best-selling console this generation, eclipsing the Xbox One and PlayStation 4? We dug into the data to put Nintendo’s new record in context."
January 26, 2018	The OP	"One current generation platform, however, does not have access to Fortnite or any game with a battlegrounds-like mode: the Nintendo Switch."

♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 18:01, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

• No resolution to this? It seems clear that the Switch is 8th-gen and should have its own mini-section like the PS4 and XB1. No opinion on the Wii U being removed or not, though. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:35, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

At this point I would say its clear that Switch is 8th-gen. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 01:34, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It can always be (re)moved later if sourcing changes. -- ferret (talk) 01:38, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah that is true ferret. I think at this point the press is classing Switch, PS4 & XB1 in the same generation. If the sourcing changes later we can always change it. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 10:02, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

WT:VG Discussion on Switch generation

Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Nintendo Switch generation. -- ferret (talk) 20:30, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Images for the PS4 Slim & Xbox One X

Are they any images out there of the PS4 Slim and Xbox One X that we can use for the article's comparison table? SansUT (talk) 17:18, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

End the generational articles

I've been reading the debates on this page and propose that we delete all the 'generation of video game consoles' articles.

The articles for the specific consoles replicate all this information anyway, and typically have comparisons to contemporary consoles in those articles.

This generation of consoles idea made some sense when it started, but makes less sense as console makers are updating their hardware within generations, and now Nintendo may be forever off track from the other console cycles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.129.140.158 (talk) 23:09, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

The generations are notable topics; we can't eliminate them. I do think there's other ways to present similar information and avoid the issue we're having with the Switch, for example, but they are not simple solutions. When both Sony and MS release their next console (5 some years?) the picture may be more obvious. --Masem (t) 23:53, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I do think it's dumb and mainly a Wikipedia-lead creation on the naming (sources mainly go with "current" or "next" gen, not "8th" and "9th") but as long as sources do compare them with other generations, then there isn't really anything we can do here. Perhaps we could get rid of the generation number and go with timeframes? Although I supposed when exactly a generation started and end would be highly controversial at worst and hard to source at best. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 21:37, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to make proposals, but I've edited/maintained these articles for coming up on a decade, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's that we can almost never get a consensus on major changes to the generations... Sergecross73 msg me 21:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

There could be confusion and overlap between generations though, which could be an issue (in regard to timeframes). Besides that, I think numbered generations are fine in the long term, but people understand last-gen, next-gen, etc. terms because of context. Zoom (talk page) 13:25, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Do keep in mind that "8-bit generation" and "16-bit generation" were not WP-made aspects - those just became the 3rd and 4th for us when we created the numbering scheme when we tried to extend that to the rest of console history. --Masem (t) 14:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Generations are still a useful means of categorizing systems. For the most part, consoles really are released in discrete generations, with several systems being released in a similar time frame, existing contemporaneously with each other over most of their lives, and nominally serving as direct competition with each other. Back in the 80s & 90s we referred to them as the "8-bit," "16-bit," and "32/64-bit" eras, so even back then it was clear that there were clear generations of consoles.

The Switch does seem to run afoul of this system, but A) the NPD considers it as being the same gen as the PS4 & XBO, and B) we do have the precedent of the Atari 2600 & 5200 existing in the same gen (though the 5200 was made to be a higher-end complement for the 2600 rather than its replacement). However, the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X most certainly do not run afoul of the notion of discrete generations. Spec upgrades to existing platforms are nothing new. They're par for course for handhelds (see the Game Boy Color, DSi, and New 3DS), and they've even happened with home consoles before, though it's been a long time (the Super-Grafx was an upgraded PC Engine/TG-16, the Sega Mark III/Master System was an upgraded SG-1000, and the Atari 7800 was an upgraded 2600). There's really nothing confusing about it if you're familiar with the history of game consoles. JGoodman (talk) 09:03, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

There are no credible sources that state the console generations have no more cultural relevance. WP:IDONTLIKEIT aplies. Sleyece (talk) 21:39, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Updated *estimated* Xbox figures

IHS via Wall Street Journal via Gamasutra puts total sold estimated at 39M. I know we are sticking to hard MS numbers right now, I'm mostly dropping this in case there is a decision to change that. --Masem (t) 17:23, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I forget where the discussions/consensus was, but we have started to use the the estimates or remove the old figures in other articles. The compromise at the Xbox One infobox was to drop the extremely outdated official sales figure from the infobox and just link to the sales section, where a few RS estimates are made. (This estimate would be perfect to be added there.) List of best selling game consoles uses the estimate with notes explaining the context. I wouldn't be opposed to adapting something like that here. Sergecross73 msg me 18:37, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Sales source

• http://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/xbox-one-sales-2-1202804149/amp/?__twitter_impression=true Sergecross73 msg me 13:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

I have trouble trusting anything that comes from EA. I would not consider their data to be a credible citation without a third party corroborating the information. -- Sleyece (talk) 01:34, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Why? You haven't given a single reason for your doubt. Yes, it's fun and popular to complain about them on the internet, but there's no reason to doubt their info on sales figures. They would absolutely be in the place to make a call on such a thing. Sergecross73 msg me 03:37, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

People "complain about them on the internet" for a reason. They aren't trustworthy. EA would definitely skew data if they thought it would result in a profit uptick. Which is why a third party data source is necessary. -- Sleyece (talk) 18:29, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

That's nonsense. There's no reason or motivation for them to give false sales info like this, nor is there a single instance of them historically giving fakes sales figures. All you've got is your poorly reasoned personal bias, which is not a reason to discount them. We don't need to take their word as law, but with context (i.e. "According to EA, estimates are...") it is a perfectly valid source that is being reported up by very mainstream third party reliable sources (Variety) And before it inevitably comes up, no I'm not some EA fanboy, I don't particularly like them and play very few of their games. So don't misunderstand my intentions. Sergecross73 msg me 18:38, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Kinda moot in light of the newer third party estimate, #Updated *estimated* Xbox figures. -- ferret (talk) 19:08, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Well played -- Sleyece (talk) 19:13, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Nintendo Switch is Eighth Generation?/Where are the Credible Sources?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The current listing is based on a consensus reached at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 137#Nintendo Switch generation, and is more broadly applied than this single article. Those with a policy based argument against the consensus can open a new discussion at WT:VG. Closing this discussion as it's ran it's course only to be re-kicked every few months. -- ferret (talk) 19:50, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

---

The Nintendo Switch is currently listed in the eighth generation. The last I remember, there was a discrepancy as to which (8th or 9th) the switch would fall, and there would not be a decision until credible sources were available. Is the Switch listed this way for Encyclopedic reasons, or was this for convenience with zero credible sources? -- Sleyece (talk) 12:55, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

See archived discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 137#Nintendo Switch generation -- ferret (talk) 12:57, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:DEMOCRACY,WP:NOT I, or another user, will eventually be forced to challenge that vote without sufficient credible sources to back it up. Can we vote that the sky is green? Can we vote that T-Rex roam the African wilderness? -- Sleyece (talk) 13:08, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Whether the Switch is 8th or 9th is an issue we have to decide by consensus because we don't have a strong body of RSes that suggest either route. On the other hand, we do have a huge body of references that prove why the sky is blue or why dinos don't exist any more, so consensus cannot override those. --Masem (t) 13:36, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Sleyece, can you chill out? Not only is there a strong Wikiproject-wide consensus, as Ferret linked to above, but there was a whole table of sources being collected by someone at a talk page somewhere. I'll find it for you, since you seem to be more content on freaking out and making bad faith assumptions rather than figuring it out on your own. Sergecross73 msg me 13:37, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Sleyece - Even worse, its in the archives of this very talk page - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eighth_generation_of_video_game_consoles/Archive_4#Source_list Sergecross73 msg me 13:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I am wondering if you fully read the discussion and its opening statement? It was based on the sourcing such as has been presented here at this talk page in the past (See archives), i.e. NPD grouping Switch as "current generation" with other 8th generation consoles, and how the various vendors and sources speak of them as competing with each other as "current generation". The discussion was not to simply "declare" that Switch was 8th generation, but to weigh and seek a consensus that these types of sources were sufficient, and the result was to place Switch here. -- ferret (talk) 13:39, 12 June 2018 (UTC):

That isn't a very large body of evidence, but it'll do for now. The consensus is good unless sourcing trends in a different direction over the next couple of years. Sergecross73, for the record, I have no chill. -- Sleyece (talk) 13:50, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Consensus evolves, if sourcing changes or moves in another direction. The consensus is based on what (limited) sourcing we have available today. -- ferret (talk) 13:52, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I'm open to discussing further too should things change over time. But nothings changed in these last few months, and there's even less sourcing (if any) for calling it ninth generation, so opening new discussions right now would not be beneficial. It'd likely lead to a lot of arguing without any change (or would be squashed instantly due to how strong the consensus was at the discussion.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:33, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually, you're wrong, Nintendo themselves called the Switch the "next generation" (http://espnharrisonburg.com/news/030030-nintendo-plans-new-next-generation-nx-console/), and you're ignoring the full lifespan of this thing is likely to be 8 to 10 years. That would make the incorrect generation it's in span Wii U's 2012 release to likely 2027 or 2028- come on a 16 year generation?? Get real! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:CFD3:2EE0:8D3B:5FD4:6845:7996 (talk) 05:09, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Nintendo themselves have never outright stated that Switch is "next-generation" that link is to an ESPN Radio affiliate WHBG article calling Switch "next-generation" which is a syndicated Reuters article about Switch before it launched. The available reliable sources refer to Switch as "current generation" hardware with the PS4 and Xbox One. In this press release which comes after the NPD Group released September 2017 sales figures. Here is a key quote from the article "In September, the Nintendo Switch system was once again the top-selling current-generation console hardware, according to the NPD Group, which tracks video game sales in the United States." There are also several reliable gaming industry sources saying "current generation" or "current gen" when referring to Switch, PS4 & Xbox One. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Wikipedia can't determine which generation Switch belongs to that is up to the gaming industry and reliable sources. Currently there are more reliable sources that support "current-generation" than "next-generation" for Switch. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 07:25, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

As Alucard notes, your source just straight up doesn't say that. At no point in that source does it say that Nintendo said that. And as Alucard says, on Wikipedia, we're tied to what sources say, and much more of them group Switch in with the 8th gen. Beyond the ones listed above, there's also this recent USGamer article I found and added to a discussion below, which repeatedly alludes to next gen starting in the future, and how it'd affect Switch, making it clear it also doesn't consider it part of a ninth gen. Sergecross73 msg me 13:40, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

That's clear WP:POV, Sergecross73, the source states that the next generation will start in 2020, which could mean the the 9th OR 10th generation of consoles could start in that year. Every new console generation is "next-gen" over the previous generation, so your assumption that the source definitively puts Switch in the 8th generation of consoles is abject nonsense. -- Sleyece (talk) 16:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

The "generation" term applies to the bulk of what hardware are in consoles, not to any specific machine. This means it is entirely possible for a single manufacturer to have two or more of its systems within the same generation (eg: Atari has both the 2600 and 5200 in the same generation). The 8th generation appears to be based on machines with high connecting of the Internet and providing more than just games but other forms of entertainment. Wii U had that, as well as the Switch, so both slot in this area appropriately. --Masem (t) 16:08, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I wasn't arguing that Switch is 9th gen. I was stating that the article mentioned nothing to imply that it isn't. For the record, yes, Switch does fit into the development cycle of the 8th gen compared to other console generations, but that doesn't mean it is confirmed 8th generation. At this point, it isn't. Statements to the contrary are 100% WP:POV and not RS. -- Sleyece (talk) 16:13, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

What exactly are you realistically proposing the USGamer source is saying? The source proposed the "next generation" would start in 2020. The Switch came out in 2017. The current generation is the 8th generation. What other conclusion can you reasonably propose other than it meaning that they're grouping it in the 8th gen? What part of this do you dispute exactly? (Also, I'm not sure you're citing WP:POV or WP:RS correctly. You may want to actually read up on those. You're probably trying to accuse me of WP:OR, not these other things.) Sergecross73 msg me 16:29, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I used WP:POV correctly. Do not get angry, it's just policy. Your opinion is that Switch is 8th gen. The source you cited did not say that at all. You twisted the source to support your opinion because you do not have a neutral point of view. -- Sleyece (talk) 17:10, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I'm not angry, more like baffled. You're not making any sense in your argument or your application of policy. But it doesn't really matter, you can try to pick apart reliable sourcing with baffling alternative-takes on what they mean all you want, there's an extremely solid WikiProject-wide consensus that Switch is to be considered 8th gen for now, and you haven't presented anything remotely persuasive in changing that. Sergecross73 msg me 18:07, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I actually compiled a list of sources earlier this year with examples where Switch was clearly being placed with the "current" 8th generation. The NPD Group one of the leading sales trackers of hardware sales clearly places Switch in the same generation with PS4 & XB1 and doesn't consider it to be a "next" generation console. Most industry sources when talking about the generations use terms like "current", "previous" or "next" they don't specifically specify a number unless they are going back a few generations.

That particular article in question is discussing how Switch would hold up to next-gen competition from Sony & Microsoft. It is not disputing Switch's generation status in any but its a more of "how would Switch fair against a PS5/Xbox Two?" Its also not a WP:POV or WP:OR issue to see where Switch is placed generation wise in the article considering there is a segment on Nintendo's decisions in "previous generations". Now if your looking solely for the words "current generation" then yes that is absent but in context with "previous generations" and "next generation of consoles" its easy for a reader to tell where the interviewer and interviewee are placing Switch in context in the article. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 19:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

When?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This section essentially started as a WP:NOTFORUM discussion, and became entangled in the above section. If you want to challenge the WT:VG consensus on the Switch's generation, use the project talk page. -- ferret (talk) 19:52, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

---

I know there is a lot of discussion whether or not Switch began the 9th generation of video game consoles, but, considering as if it is in the 8th generation, how long do you think it is till the 9th generation? Ramesty (talk) 04:23, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

No one knows. Neither Sony or Microsoft have released any concrete information or timetables on their future consoles. And we on Wikipedia don't do anything until sources start talking a ninth generation anyways. That's not a term the industry is using yet. Sergecross73 msg me 13:22, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree, but it will definitively will come sometime. Probably just a couple of years.Ramesty (talk) 13:48, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

Switch has only been confirmed as 8th by a few sources. No credible sources have mentioned the ninth gen. The new Atari Console has been suggested to be a basic emulator, 8th gen, and 9th gen. So, we just don't know anything for sure. Even the new consoles announced at E3 were not said to be 9th gen. We will see soon, though. Sleyece (talk) 23:20, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

• https://www.usgamer.net/articles/what-the-next-console-generation-could-mean-for-switch-ps5-xbox-two - Here’s a source stating that next gen is expected to start in 2020, which would mean they don’t consider Switch 9th gen, for example. We’ll have to compile a master list of sources and not let it archive or something. Sergecross73 msg me 00:10, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Comment It does not mean they consider Switch to be 9th gen. It means they consider Switch to be CURRENT gen. The source also states that the life cycle of the Switch will be shorter that of most consoles, which could imply that they consider it to be 9th gen and for the 9th to be a relatively short console cycle. -- Sleyece (talk) 16:08, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• What exactly are you proposing? That USGamer is calling Switch 9th gen all by itself, and PS5 and the next Xbox to be 10th gen or something? That's ludicrous. Sergecross73 msg me 16:31, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• WP:POV -- Sleyece (talk) 17:17, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• Please, stop this silly attempt to WP:WIKILAWYER and answer my question. I'm not POV-pushing, I'm asking you a question. Explain yourself and your interpretation. If it's not saying Switch is 8th gen, what would it be saying alternatively. You need a good-faith reason to express your doubt in the message here. Sergecross73 msg me 18:04, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• I never said you were POV-pushing. Those are your words. -- Sleyece (talk) 18:51, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• Sigh..."POV-pushing" is what we call the act of not following WP:POV. That's, literally the entirety of your prior comment. See, this is what I mean when I say that you don't seem to understand the very things you're citing in your arguments. Sergecross73 msg me 19:34, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Scrollbars for comparison tables

IMHO it would be better to drop (remove) the overflow divs. Reason: Since the comparison tables are very long, you need to scroll all the way down to the end of the table in order to be able to see and use the x-scrollbar. If the overflow divs are gone, the browser tab will have an x-scrollbar which is visible without having to scroll down.

I was trying to find out whether it's possible to have the overflow x-scrollbar at top of the tables instead of at the bottom, but there doesn't seem to be a CSS property for this purpose.

As a side note, I'm aware using middle click works to scroll without using a scrollbar. Though due to the overflow being hidden (as the x-scrollbar is out of sight), it's not obvious where the table ends, it's missing a visual pointer. — Pizzahut2 (talk) 01:00, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

What could work (keeping the overflow CSS property set to "auto" or "scroll") is limiting the height of the div, ideally to the size of the browser tab. Not sure if this is possible, otherwise a fixed value would have to be used, e.g. "height: 800px;" — Pizzahut2 (talk) 01:23, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Switch?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Seriosuly? Switch is next generation, not Wii U generation, GEEZE! TheZelos (talk) 19:00, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Please see this previous consensus that has the Switch as 8th gen until a time that sources will say otherwise. --Masem (t) 19:16, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Mad Box and 9th Gen

So what's everyone's thoughts on this?, would we qualify it as a 9th gen system? Assassin|1715 19:30, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Given that it is three years out, there's nothing to consider at this point. --Masem (t) 19:32, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Right now, it belongs nowhere. We’ll see what sources are saying in a couple years. This could end up being nothing, or a non-factor down the line too. Years back, people were all worked up over what Ouya meant for the 8th gen off video games....and in the end, it had very little impact at all. Sergecross73 msg me 22:27, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Nintendo sales/shipped

Resolved

 – Nintendo reports shipped sales. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 01:12, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@Arkhandar: In your updates, you put Wii U and Switch as Units Shipped and left sales as NA. I think it might go the other way, the linked IR sales reports say "sales" not "units shipped", unless I missed a foot note. -- ferret (talk) 15:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ferret: Hi! Thanks for the ping. As far as I remembered, Nintendo has always reported shipped rather than sold units. But I'll give it a check and get back to you. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 15:50, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

@Ferret: Yeah, like I remembered: "The numbers shown above are worldwide consolidated sales in units life-to-date.". So, the numbers are reported in units shipped, aka consolidated sales to retailers. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 15:54, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Rumor of new MS hardware reveal at E3 this year

Just a heads up to prepare ourselves. Jeux France is reporting this, and the hardware won't be out in 2020, but pretty confident that if that is true, this will trigger the "ninth generation". Obviously, wait and see, but still. --Masem (t) 15:57, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Xbox One X feels like it just released. Color me extra skeptical. Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 16:03, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

I’ve seen a lot of analysts suggest 2020 as release dates for “Ps5/New Xbox” too though. To answer Masem, for what it’s worth, I page protected every possible variant of “9th gen” I could think of around the time of the Switch’s release because people kept on concocting these bogus articles on it. So hopefully that’ll keep from any premature articles popping up at least, so it can be created correctly, at the right time. Sergecross73 msg me 20:44, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

So we've already laid salt. Assume we get new hardware, what criteria should we use to discern a new generation? Like, beefier Xbox/PS4 obviously won't cut it, but if we got something truly new (as in games specific to its hardware) then we'd kick it off? Zero Serenity ^{(talk - contributions)} 20:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

@Zero Serenity: The criteria is pretty simple: wait for RSs to say "next generation". ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 01:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I believe that’s how we handled it with the 8th gen article, but a step or two further. We waited until sources consistently defined a “8th gen”, waiting until multiple platforms in the gen were announced, and maybe even waited until 1 8th gen platform was actually released, I’m not sure. Basically, we kinda of tested it like we were making sure the term “8th gen” itself met the GNG and wasn’t entirely written around speculation/rumors/guesses. Sergecross73 msg me 16:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: I've checked the history and the article was created way back in 2006, and was in a constant delete and create cycle. It only really start to gain the shape it has today when the 3DS was already released and the Wii U announced. So yeah, when we basically had two "next-gen" consoles confirmed. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 16:51, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Google Stadia and Oculus Quest - potential inclusion for Ninth Gen page?

Both are not out yet, so it's impossible to assess their impact on the gaming industry. However, what I want to discuss is in regards to how these two are perceived by the media and the general public. Their marketing also suggests that they're competitors in the console industry despite being wildly different concepts (Stadia against XB1 and PS4) (Oculus Quest against Switch). The difference between Stadia and other streaming services is that it's defined as an entirely new platform by the industry. As you can see from many media outlets and even Digital Foundry, many have described it in relation to the console market. That separates it from streaming services like GeForce Now and PlayStation Now. Unlike the two, Stadia will also have exclusive first-party titles much like Xbox, PlayStation, and Nintendo platforms. We've heard rumblings about the PS5 and next-gen Xbox. If Google Stadia is here to stay and the industry + general public continues to see it as a counterpart to the consoles, does it deserve to be in a new section (Streaming Platform) for the Ninth Gen page to come? Oculus Quest is a different story though. Despite Oculus VR marketing it as a VR console in competing against the Switch, the industry views it as mere headset instead. So we have two completely different situations. We have a standalone console hardware that is not viewed as a competitor in the gaming industry, but we have a cloud gaming service that is positioned as a major player against the big three platform owners. Both of these situations seem quite tricky to figure out. It's obviously too early to decide, but I still find it interesting to discuss this topic. Perhaps it can be revisited when they have launched alongside the next-gen consoles. Sucoleo (talk) 02:50, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

I think your opening sentence more or less covers the situation at this point... Sergecross73 msg me 03:05, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

General comment: They're not consoles. So they don't go on a page about consoles, beyond a foot note as being seen as competition (Much like we mention mobile gaming here). Related topic: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Video_games#Streaming_services_as_a_platform_(Yes,_yet_again)_aka_Google_Stadia -- ferret (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

At this point, no. I can envision a future where the console is "dead" and everything is streaming, and at that point we'd be outlining the streaming services, but we're not at that point yet, and cannot predict how Stadia and MS's approach will pan out. We know both MS and Sony have stated next-gen hardware is in the works, so we know there will be a 9th generation, but for the time being, Stadia can be listed on the 8th gen, just lower down and not aligned with home consoles or handhelds. --Masem (t) 17:49, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

9th gen draft page

You guys are saying that it's still too early to make a 9th gen page, but since Sony is confirmed to be developing the PS5, and another Xbox probably isn't far behind, should we at least start the page as a draft? Xninetynine (talk) 16:08, 28 February 2019 (UTC) X99

Until we actually have confirmed hardware specs (not just names of consoles), it makes no sense to have a separate page. --Masem (t) 16:13, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Literally nothing is known yet, and when things are announced, we’d probably scrap the majority of the rumor/speculation stuff in favor of actual content. Sergecross73 msg me 16:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

A draft page is not visible to the public. It would remain a draft, worked on little by little, until complete. It could take months or years to finish, based on when consoles come out. As for no known specifics, the PS5 is known to (when released) be backwards-compatible with PS3 and PS4 games. Doesn't that count as a specific? Xninetynine (talk) 23:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC) X99

No. There are rumors. There is literally nothing “known” except for that Sony and Microsoft will be releasing further console(s). Sergecross73 msg me 00:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

A draft apparently already exists: Draft:Ninth generation of video game consoles. Rreagan007 (talk) 04:59, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and it’s worthless. It’s existed for over a year and contains no real content or sources. Sergecross73 msg me 18:31, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Just leaving a warning here: Mark Cerny of Sony just dropped a bunch of details of what is going to be PS's next-gen console via an interview with Wired. However, nowhere close to enough to start a 9th gen article here (I've added those details to the main PlayStation article for the time) - Cerny says it will not be shown at E3 this year, so we're looking at least a year out (2020) for release. So let's not jump on that for 9th gen. --Masem (t) 14:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. Sergecross73 msg me 21:00, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

At some point Switch is going to be moved into that generation, otherwise the 8th and 9th will literally be running concurrently, which has never happened in times past, because even PS2 stopped before the next generation ended. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:AD83:491:3981:C4AD (talk) 20:05, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Or the industry stops categorizing things as "console generations" entirely. -- ferret (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Post Generational is just a meme, there will be a 9th gen. 50.200.31.90 (talk) 18:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Generations run concurrently all the time. The PS2 existed for years amongst the ps3/360/Wii generation. There were all sorts of cross-gen PS2 to Wii ports. Not that it matters - we’re talking about simple commercial products co-existing, not something crazy like humans and dinosaurs coexisting. Sergecross73 msg me 02:59, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Compressed Handheld Table

Tell me if we should accept my compressed table of all the eighth generation handhelds considering that the 3DS section makes the whole table too long to see all the data from both the desktop and mobile versions? --SansUT (talk | contributions) 00:53, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Longest generation in history!

Since it began in 2012 with Wii U, and runs the entire lifetime of Switch, provided it gets the 10 years, means this generation will run 2012 to 2027 (worldwide, not just one market like past systems)! That needs to be noted that it's going to be the longest generation in history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:DDD4:7872:2495:D030 (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL and WP:OR keep us from making speculative claims like that on Wikipedia. Sergecross73 msg me 23:39, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The One True Fact

On September 20, 2018, Sony has announced that Vita production is ending and that there are no plans for a successor in place, effectively concluding Sony's nearly 15 year presence in the handheld market, according to Game Informer. Does that mean the PlayStation Vita is the second and final handheld system produced by Sony, and can I put "and final" in this article? --The Krusty Krustacean (talk) 04:04, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

No, Sony never said they will never make another handheld, so it is wrong to say "final". --Masem (t) 04:09, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

@Masem: Actually, they have stated that there are no plan for a successor, so given WP:CRYSTAL we can safely classify it as final. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 18:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

CRYSTAL would tell us not to treat that as a statement that Sony is completely out of the handheld game. Simply that they aren't making a successor to the Vita. --Masem (t) 18:04, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Masem: They specifically stated that they're out of the handheld business. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 18:24, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

The exact quote from the GameInformer article from Jim Ryan is "PlayStation Vita was brilliant in many ways, and the actual gaming experience was great, but clearly it’s a business that we’re no longer in now." That's not a statement of finality, particularly with that "now". Just says, they aren't doing any handhelds currently after Vita. Nothing else can be read from that. (We have to avoid using what journalists might speak around it in this case, as the article title from Destructiod takes a different stance). --Masem (t) 18:31, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Masem: I see. Thanks for pointing that out! ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 18:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

No, please just stick to the facts - that Vita was discontinued without any plans for a successor. Sergecross73 msg me 09:27, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Can I replace "the second" with the word "a"? --The Krusty Krustacean (talk) 17:31, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

I don’t think it really matters either way. Sergecross73 msg me 14:31, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Is the Switch really an 8th gen console?

What criteria are we using to judge whether a console belongs to this gen or the next? There are several reasons it would make more sense to group the Switch with the 9th generation:
• Both the 7th and 8th generations lasted an unusually long time compared to previous generations, so just because one company moves on before the others this generation doesn't mean their move doesn't fit with the general historical trend.
• We now know the 9th will definitively begin in 2020 with the release of the Xbox Series X and the PS5; the launch of the Switch is closer to the launch of the other 9th gen consoles than it is to the 8th gen ones.
• The Switch is just as much a successor to the 3DS as it is to the Wii U, and the amount of time between the launches of the DS and 3DS is almost exactly the same as the amount of time between the launches of the 3DS and the Switch.
--PúcaCiúin (talk) 17:29, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@PúcaCiúin: As of 2020, three years after the Switch's release, no WP:RS has classified it as either "eight-gen" "ninth-gen" or "next-gen". So yes, the Switch really is an 8th gen console. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 17:55, 25 June 2020 (UTC) Edited ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 20:35, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Arkhandar: I mean, that kind of just feeds into the question I asked; it doesn't answer it. If there are no sources that classify it as 8th gen, then what are we looking at to justify doing so ourselves? If it's not a judgement call and no reliable sources have classified it, why do we have it on this page at all? I don't get the jump from "no sources have classified it" to "so this is the classification it belongs under". -- PúcaCiúin (talk) 19:39, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@PúcaCiúin: I understand your view, and share your concerns, but the Switch was announced and reported as part of the current generation of consoles (8th gen), and since it wasn't classified as "next-gen" (as new consoles usually are when they're announced) it's place is in the 8th gen. I know it's not a rock solid reasoning, but we've had this discussion multiple times in the past regarding other systems, and the current consensus is that this kind of reasoning is enough to justify its positioning. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 20:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, fair enough. -- PúcaCiúin (talk) 21:26, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@PúcaCiúin: One of the things we want to avoid is WP:CITOGENESIS. Circular reporting. The very concept of video game generations as we know them today was probably influenced by Wikipedia. We categorized consoles a certain way, reporters read it and put it in their articles, then those articles were cited back on Wikipedia to "verify" the generations. We want to be as careful as possible that Wikipedia is not the source of "There is a 9th generation, and these consoles are in it". We want the sources to say it first. -- ferret (talk) 21:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ferret: I understand that concern, although in this case it doesn't seem that problematic. If there wasn't a trace of truth to what's here on Wikipedia, sources wouldn't use the nomenclature. But it's definitely something to avoid as much as possible. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 22:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ferret: But right now Wikipedia is basically the only source of "the Switch is an 8th gen console". It goes both ways. --eduardog3000 (talk) 20:38, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

@Eduardog3000: Wikipedia is not the only source placing Nintendo Switch within the current (8th) generation. I created a list that is in the archives that was placing Switch within the current (8th) generation before Wikipedia even reached a consensus to put Switch in the 8th generation article. Also here is a more recent example:

"Our current generation game system, Nintendo Switch, has entered its fourth year since launch, but its momentum is increasing," Nintendo president Shuntaro Furukawa said. "... We will utilise these experiences in carefully considering the form our future game consoles will take."

There is also other sources that still place Switch in the same generation as PlayStation 4 & Xbox One if you Google search for them. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 01:16, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Alucard 16: The wording is ambiguous at best. If anything, Furukawa would be classifying the Switch as a 9th gen console - the "current generation", indirectly referring to the Wii U as an 8th gen console - the previous generation. However, that is not the case, as Furukawa is answering in the context of Nintendo's own hardware generations and not the generations of the whole video game console industry. ~ Arkhandar ^{(message me)} 10:19, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't see such ambiguation, per se. Another issue with the entire console generation idea is the idea of industry generations versus vendor generation. The Switch, irrespective of "8th generation" or "9th generation" in the broader industry, is Nintendo's current hardware generation (7th Nintendo home console, ignoring the "hybrid" concept) and following the Wii U (6th Nintendo home console). I believe Alucard's main point is that Furukawa was speaking of a new Nintendo hardware iteration to be arriving soon(tm). -- ferret (talk) 11:10, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks ferret pretty much Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 20:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Alucard 16: Are there older sources, perhaps from around or before the Switch's release? Newer articles stating so could easily be citogenesis. Also the article you linked isn't really calling the Switch "current gen", it's just a low quality article about rumors of a successor to the Switch, which is much more likely to end up being a "Pro" refresh than its own "next gen" console. --eduardog3000 (talk) 20:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Upon release, the Switch was largely lumped in with 8th gen PS4/Xbox One because that’s what existed. How are you supposed to have articles about a supposedly “9th gen” in 2017 when it’s just one system and two consoles that were multiple years away from a reveal. It came out three years ago. If it was being called 9th gen, we’d know by now. Sergecross73 msg me 20:25, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Eduardog3000: Like I said above they are in the talk page archives (specifically Archive 4). Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 20:55, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I found a new source that Nintendo Switch was categorized as 9th generation.This is a feature of generation of video game consoles written by "mono magazine", Japanese goods magazine.

• モノ・マガジン 2020年2月16日号 家庭用ゲーム年代記--211.7.151.161　08:44, 3 July 2020 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.7.151.161 (talk)

We can’t use a picture of a magazine taken by a random blogger. Sergecross73 msg me 20:25, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

• I dare not say we do this now, but maybe perhaps there will be evidence that the Switch is *both* an 8th and 9th gen console. We're not in console gens 1-5 where it was defined strongly by hardware (bit-length on processor), but primarily by competing consoles. And in such a case, it can be easily argued that the Switch competed with both the PS4/Xbox One and the PS5/XSX. We don't know this for sure yet, but I'm throwing out yet another possibility we may need to consider. --Masem (t) 21:43, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

• Here's a few sources confirming that its 9th gen.

  "As the Nintendo Switch brings us to the 9th console generation"

  "Nintendo confirms that footage of its next-gen game console was added in post-production"

  "Nintendo unveiled the first images of its next-gen game console formerly known as the Nintendo NX. The official name is Nintendo Switch."

  "The Nintendo Switch is a brand new next-gen console."

  "Nintendo revealed that the system hits stores on March 3, 2017. That gives us a little less than two months to prep for the next generation of Nintendo games."

  "and a mystery-cloaked next-gen platform then known only as “NX.”"

  "Nintendo's next-gen Switch console is nearly here"

  "But the pitch to that crucial Nintendo core is also for a device that can go anywhere they want to be. As touchable and totable as a smartphone or tablet, sure, but also deeply unlike those devices, with core gamer thumb-sticks and buttons, a dock that lets players plug into their giganto-TVs, and above all else, a next-gen linchpin for Nintendo’s Disney-caliber IP."

  "On top of that, Nintendo already unveiled its next-gen console, the interesting Switch hybrid"

  Databased (talk) 17:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

References

The only two sources in that who mention a "9th generation" are unreliable sources. The rest refer to "Nintendo's next-gen". It's extremely important to differentiate between a company's "next-gen", as in literally their next product, and the industries' "next-gen", a concept spanning multiple companies. -- ferret (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

What problems do you have with the source to call it unreliable? As far as I'm aware, there are sources calling it 9th gen, but no sources calling it 8th gen. It just seems silly defaulting to 8th gen based on no evidence at all, yet fighting tooth and nail against any evidence suggesting its 9th gen. Databased (talk) 10:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, exactly this. Seconded. Sergecross73 msg me 17:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

• If I may quote the article to illustrate a problem here, "Unlike in most prior generations, there were few new innovative hardware capabilities to mark this generation as distinct from prior ones." That is going to also hold true, it appears, for any putative ninth generation and any clear dividing lines between the 8th and 9th. For example, the break between the first and second really came about through the widespread adoption of removable media (the cartridge), between the third and fourth over a significant increase in processor type (8-bit to 16-bit), between the fifth and sixth was the widespread adoption of fully integrated internet connectivity, etc. etc. The border between the 7th and 8th is much fuzzier. 8th gen systems introduced no real new technology or significant change in the gaming experience beyond a simple increase in processing power and speed, stuff got better a bit, but it didn't get different. All the major manufacturers all released a new system at around the same time, which was the only real change. The problem with the Switch is that it was released outside of the normal product development cycle; it doesn't really represent a significantly new kind of system (it's just a tablet with a good enough graphics driver to look good on HDTVs), and no other manufacturer released any new systems at around the same time. Basically, the Wii-U tanked and Nintendo put its efforts into a different kind of system, and they released it a few years into this "generation". Unless we have clear dividing lines, we shouldn't be saying that something is an "X+1" generation system merely because the same manufacturer released another system in the X generation. As noted above, we really need to look to reliable sources on this and not put our own interpretation. --Jayron32 17:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
• A few more sources confirming it is 9th gen.

  "The Nintendo Switch is also the company’s first 9th generation console (both the PlayStation 4 and Xbox One are 8th generation consoles, along with the Nintendo Wii U)."

  "Nintendo used a three-minute video to reveal its latest hardware this morning, firing the starting gun on the ninth generation of video game consoles"

  Databased (talk) 10:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Both sources that WP:VG has already considered. Please understand, LOTS of experienced editors have weighed this topic and given it serious consideration. We didn't arrive at the current status haphazardly or without cause. We are at the moment waiting to see how coverage of the new Xbox and PlayStation consoles develops and trying to make sure that Wikipedia does not unduly influence sources in regards to generation numberings, as Wikipedia:CITOGENESIS is a serious concern here. -- ferret (talk) 12:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

It is going to be much easier to refigure the Switch's place out after both the XSX and PS5 are released and have been out for some time (half a year-ish) to let markets balance out to see how the Switch fits, per Ferret and others. We know Wikipedia is complicit in creating the current numbering and division of the generation scheme (not the concept of generations themselves) from academic sourcing, so we want to be careful moving forward not to go where there's not a plethra of sources to take us, not just one or two. --Masem (t) 13:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

By that logic, shouldn't the Switch be removed from this article then? Wikipedia is already taking an (uncited) stance that it is eighth generation, and people will start to repeat that "since Wikipedia says so". It's even in the lede of the Nintendo Switch page for some reason. If there are no sources explicitly calling it an 8th generation console, then Wikipedia should not be pushing that labeling so hard. Databased (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean, define “unsourced”. There’s plenty of sources that make comments like this, written in 2020 about the upcoming start of the next generation of consoles. They’re very clearly not grouping Switch, a 2017 release, as part as the next generation of consoles when they’re talking about it as a future event. Sergecross73 msg me 18:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

If you have looked at all the academic sources I've had to look at recently on generations, you'll know they are looking at this from a marketing side, not a technology side, even though the generations have been established by the 5y Moore's law-type cycle in technology improvement. Which is why don't just look at the next model from Nintendo to say its next gen, but how it is grouped with the other consoles and if it is regularly compared to them as a sales thing. It may be that the Switch must be listed as both 8th and 9th if it discussed this way (WP has not been around long enough to see a console split a generation this much). But its too early to say because the 9th generation isn't even defined yet. --Masem (t) 18:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

• I originally believed that Nintendo Switch was a 9th generation console since it was succeeding the Wii U and Nintendo 3DS in a way, but now I believe it is an 8th generation console for the following reasons.
  

• For one, the Nintendo Switch came out in March 2017 which means it is still closer to the release of the Xbox One and PS4 than the Series X/S and PS5 (November 2013-March 2017 (3 years, 4 months), March 2017-November 2020 (3 years, 8 months). Yes, the Nintendo Switch is farther from the Wii U launch than the Series X/S and PS5, but the Wii U faded into obscurity shortly after the Xbox One and PS4 came out.
• The Nintendo Switch can be viewed as a mid-cycle refresh of some sorts to the Wii U, and it came out around the time Sony and Microsoft were doing their mid-cycle refreshes for their 8th generation consoles (One S - August 2016, PS4 Slim - September 2016, PS4 Pro - November 2016, One X - November 2017). This can be further exemplified by the amount of Wii U Ports the Nintendo Switch has been getting. For example, the Nintendo Switch still does not have a new mainline 2D Mario Game or Mario Kart, further exemplifying the reliability it has on Wii U Ports and the lack of time that game developers had between the Wii U and Nintendo Switch's release to create new titles. --Smik550 (talk) 14:09, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

No handhelds now??

Where are the 3DS, Switch Lite and Vita? Are handhelds no longer counted in generations of game consoles like the other generations?

Not sure I follow. They’re all in the article. They even have dedicated sections with their name on them, so they’re easy to find. Sergecross73 msg me 02:48, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Ninth generation of video game consoles

Is a separate article for the ninth generation of consoles necessary now? We're approaching the release of the Xbox Series X/S and PS5 and I think it would only make sense to create a separate article, but I will just have to see what you all have to say about it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smik550 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

@Smik550: It'll be necessary eventually, I don't think there's anyone considering the Series X and PS5 an update on the 8th Gen, but for now I don't know if there's enough content for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Julian Grebe (talk • contribs) 02:04, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, essentially, we’re waiting for the new platforms to release, especially since it’ll lead to so much new commentary on them. We’ll likely make an article based on that sort of coverage, which may clear up a lot of the common points of contention we currently have. Sergecross73 msg me 15:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

cloud saves

CAn anyone add a extra row on cloud saves. xbox allows free cloud saves whereas ps4 requires ps plus to save over the cloud. 180.151.94.115 (talk) 13:01, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Central discussion if to add 9th gen

Please see WT:VG#The dreaded 9th Gen discussion... to discuss if we should consider going forward with calling out the 9th generation of video game consoles. --Masem (t) 01:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Xbox Series X/S and Playstation 5

Should these be a 9th generation console or a upgrade to the existing 8th generation. Since they are next generation consoles what would they be considered as they were just released recently. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.162.88.62 (talk) 14:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Look at the talk section immediately above this one. -- ferret (talk) 14:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Switch as a 9th Gen System

These so-called "generations" are largely a construct of what we perceive in our own minds – an unofficial way for us to organize something doesn't have standardized organization. It's all subjective, and there is a strong case to be made that these labels run dangerously close to original research. That being said, in cases like the Switch, there is no rule that says generations can't overlap one another. As far as how these consoles are positioned against their competitors, it makes a lot of sense to call the Switch a 9th Generation system that happened to have an earlier release. Had the Wii U been just a little successful, Nintendo would've stuck it out longer and released its next generation closer to Sony and Microsoft. The date a generation begins and ends is something we make up ourselves. What defines a generation should be how the products are positioned against each other when sold at market. Not arbitrary cycles of time that video game companies don't even adhere to themselves. 143.59.28.175 (talk) 21:41, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Look at the talk section two above this one. -- ferret (talk) 22:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm specifically calling out an issue on the the 8th gen page. Not in general asking if we should make a 9th gen page. 143.59.28.175 (talk) 03:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is nothing new. Everyone’s got their own little creative take on how to handle it. But no one ever gathers a strong consensus to change things in their favor, which is required on Wikipedia, so we don’t end up doing them. Sergecross73 msg me 13:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Hey, I'm just trying to spark a little conversation. Some real discussion about the merits of my point. Not drone on about Wikipedia legal code. 143.59.28.175 (talk) 05:43, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

But "Wikipedia legal code" matters, and I'm not sure how I follow that this discussion is somehow DIFFERENT from the centralized discussion over ninth generation, whether it should exist yet, and what consoles belong to it. This is the same discussion topic. -- ferret (talk) 14:19, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying Wikipedia rules don't matter. But if I'm being told to build consensus, it'd be nice if instead of throwing policy links at me that the substance of what I'm trying to bring up were also discussed. I agree, it'd be better to continue the discussion on the project page as even those that disagree are actually addressing the matter at hand. 143.59.28.175 (talk) 17:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

You’ve proposed an unoriginal idea, and cited zero reliable sources that are approaching it the same way, so your proposal is pretty much dead on arrival as is. Sergecross73 msg me 18:26, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

This is ironic given my issue with the current status quo is that…there are no verifiable sources. In fact, I'm saying we should reevaluate what sources we use in the first place. I'd love to discuss more with you over on the project page. 143.59.28.175 (talk) 19:54, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Then your argument is hollow because it's easy to find tons of reliable sourcing discussing consoles as "eighth generation", and even some that have adopted "ninth" already. Regardless of Wikipedia's influence on naming and delineating some of the generations, the cat is out of the bag and reliable secondary sources use them, including IEEE and several other studies beyond simple internet news sites and industry magazines. Self-awareness causes us to attempt to avoid further influencing sources. -- ferret (talk) 19:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Exactly this. Errors were made in the past, well before our time. We’re doing our best to not make it even worse. Sergecross73 msg me 20:53, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

HUH?

How is the Switch Lite, which released in 2019 the same generation as the 3DS and Vita, both releasing 8 years earlier in 2011? Isn't a generation supposed to be the time distance as well? Is this generation now 20 years instead of the typical 5 to 10? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1702:3AE0:4760:0:0:0:49 (talk) 01:38, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

The handhelds are not considered part of the generation breakdown, and the Switch Lite itself is just a revision of the Switch. --Masem (t) 01:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Links to the seventh and ninth generation articles

So I was kind of "binge" reading the articles about video game generation. I looked for the link to go to the ninth gen in the "see also" section, but it wasn't there. Neither was the link to the seventh-gen. I added the links. Are they supposed to be there, though? Was there a reason? CadeKimbrough08 (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by CadeKimbrough08 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Because these are links in the various navigation boxes on the page, they don't belong in the See Also section. --Masem (t) 16:58, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

My bad. CadeKimbrough08 (talk) 19:17, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Ps4 slim.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Oculus systems

Shouldn't the Oculus systems (Quest 1 and 2, Go) be included, since they're technically handheld consoles with their own libraries and exclusive games? Endianer (talk) 18:32, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

We can add a section on other hardware, and include the VR devices (Ocilulus, PSVR, etc), as well as cloud gaming options. --Masem (t) 18:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Are they consoles per se? There becomes some question as to where the line is drawn. Virtual reality headset never calls them consoles, for example. --Jayron32 18:53, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

They can be both VR headsets and consoles. The fact they're centered on the VR gimmick doesn't make them any less consoles, just like the Wii and 3DS were consoles with their own gimmicks. The Quest and Go are definitely their own systems that can run on their own, unlike the Rift or PSVR. You don't need a PC to play games on them. IIRC, Oculus even marketed the Quest as a VR-centric console. Endianer (talk) 19:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't see them being called consoles generally. I wouldn't mention them outside of a passing mention... Sergecross73 msg me 19:01, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

How do we even define consoles? Because as far as I can tell they fulfill all the criteria. Endianer (talk) 19:03, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Do you have sources that call them consoles? Because the term "VR console" is essentially unknown according to ngrams. It's not a term that is used to describe them. --Jayron32 19:07, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Sure. A quick google search shows that a number of reliable sources refer to them as consoles, like CNET or The Verge. Endianer (talk) 19:11, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. Carry on. --Jayron32 19:14, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Same Generation?

What genius put, and keeps it there, The Switch in the same generation as the system it replaced? The Switch is not 8th but in the 9th generation. No donations this month until t his is corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.182.52 (talk) 18:06, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Console generations are defined not by technical improvements but by which systems they were considered to compete against. The Switch, given current reliable sources, has competed primarily against the Xbox One and PS4, so makes it a 8th generation system. It may also be a 9th generation competing against the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S, but we don't have enough data for that yet. --Masem (t) 18:10, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

FYI, Resetera is up in arms over the generations classifications today, so expect some more less-than-constructive commentary like the above. Sergecross73 msg me 18:16, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

The Genesis competed with the NES. Just as well, the Dreamcast briefly competed with the PS1. If you analyze the Switch by the same standards, it's easy to see it as the first 9th gen system. --186.242.243.153 (talk) 02:57, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Statista lists the Switch with the PS5 and Xbox Series X/S . Perhaps it's time the system is migrated to the 9th generation.142.161.249.114 (talk) 17:33, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Statista is an unreliable source on Wikipedia. -- ferret (talk) 17:56, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

The ideal determinant factor would be how many days the Nintendo Switch has competed against its 8th and 9th generation counterparts.

As it stands, the number of days between the launch of the Nintendo Switch and the launch of the Xbox Series X (2 days before the PlayStation 5) is 1,344 days.

The number of days between the launch of the XSX to today is only 888 days. Logically, it would have to be December 21, 2026 before it would be justified that the Switch is classified as 9th gen.

216.58.1.46 (talk) 05:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

The problem is that "generations" are not based on a timeline (though historically they have happened to be roughly every 5 years), but based on what are the systems typically grouped together in reliable sources as part of a common generation. This is why we know the Switch belongs to the 8th generation, but it also may be part of the ninth too, we're not sure yet. Masem (t) 12:44, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

When are you going "to be sure"? It has been 3 years since the release of both PS5 and XBX|S. The Switch is still selling well, and it is very obvious now that it is competing against the PS5 and XBX|S. Even the NPD group is pretty much acknowledging that the Switch competes with the 9th gen systems. 61.9.108.144 (talk) 02:20, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

References