Talk:Coat of arms of Serbia

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Firesteels[edit]

Should there be some mention of Byzantine influence for the firesteels? e.g. the earlier Palaiologos dynasty as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologos_dynasty and also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_flags_and_insignia 82.16.242.232 (talk) 03:02, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If there are credible sources that say this then yes, absolutely. Buttons (talk) 05:55, 1 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian cross[edit]

Serbian Cross
Palaiologan Cross

We should scrap the chandelier nonsense and state plainly that the Serbian cross is the Palaiologan Cross, which originated as early as the 12th century (not the mid 1300s). Its not even a modification, really, as gold (Or) and white (Argent) are often interchangeable in heraldry - its the same exact cross. The letters are not Cyrillic "s" but Greek betas. They do not mean "samo sloga Srbina spasava", their meaning is unknown. The prevailing theory is that they mean "King of Kings, Ruling Over Kings" (βασιλεὺς βασιλέων, βασιλεύων βασιλευόντων, Basileus Basileōn, Basileuōn Basileuontōn). That pretty much makes Nikolić the Emperor of the World :) -- Director (talk) 18:53, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The user "Director" is right. The signs around the cross are undoubtedly four "B" (Cyrillic "Ve" or Greek "Beta") and do not stand for fire steels or C. Ι changed the article accordingly. It is understandable that in later times (19th century or whenever), when the original meaning had long been gone -especially among the Serbs- a new meaning was invented, such as "Samo Sloga..." etc. ( Personally I first learned about that in Wikipedia.) This is nothing more than a (popular) folk etymology and could me mentioned as such in this article or in "Serbian cross", but not as an accepted meaning of the letters. I also wonder how "B" was interpreted as stylised "C". In almost all variations of the cross used in older coat of arms, as shown in the "Gallery", the B letters retain a straight side, while C has none. What is more, stylisation-calligraphy usually leads to more curved forms of the initial letters and not to the opposite (C written to look like B or E). :On the other hand, I cannot understand why the Byzantine-originated etymology (the right one) seems to be not easily accepted by some Serbs. Serbia has a historical, close relation to the Byzantine Empire. Βy using the tetragrammic cross in their coat of arms and their flag, Serbs could -proudly- emphasize this relation with a long-lived empire (of around a thousand years).
Last, Ι’d like to comment on the Greek phrase behind "B.B.B.B." I am not sure that the phrase "Vassilefs Vassileon Vassilevon Vassilevonton" is not indeed mentioned in a byzantine manuscript – it is likely though that it was used as a secret code. In any case, I am almost certain that the first part “King of the Kings” is a religious description for God, as used in Greek liturgy or even in the Holy Scripts (I don’ t remember exactly where). So the meaning of "B.B.B.B." could be “Lord, who Rules over the Rulers”, which perfectly describes the relation of imperial-king power with God’s power in Byzantium. P.S. The initial colors of the cross, (according to an old book of mine about Greek flags) were blue and white. Routhramiotis/Ρουθραμιώτης (talk) 12:38, 25 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the firesteels aren't Serbian "C" i.e. English "S" in the ORIGIN of this symbol doesn't mean the firesteels aren't "C"s/"S"s to Serbian onlookers NOW. As an example, it is beyond doubt that the English word "reindeer" did NOT come from "rein" plus "deer", the reindeer/caribou being the only cervid mammal semi-domesticated for traction. It comes from two Old Norse words meaning "deer" and "animal", one of which SOUNDS like "hrein", but neither Old Norse word refers to reins. HOWEVER, the fact that the word did not ORIGINATE as "reined deer" has nothing to do with the MEANING of the word "reindeer" in the present time, when any speaker of English who knows anything of the Sami culture and who says the word "reindeer" is CERTAINLY saying, in their own mind, "reined deer". The Serbian cross symbol may have ACQUIRED a meaning not inherited with the symbol itself. And as long as the ends of the firesteels don't bend around far enough to touch the vertical stem, the "graph network" or whatever it is, is the same as the Serbian "C" i.e. English "S". As translations for the motto go, "Solely Solidarity Saves Serbia" is better than "Only Unity Saves Serbia" because it preserves the four-in-a-row alliteration.2603:7000:9906:A91C:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 (talk) 06:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson[reply]
There is a lot of text in this article, but little knowledge, which has become typical of Wikipedia. There is no Byzantine heraldry prior to the Latin Empire of Constantinople, when Western knights introduced it. The Nemanjid dynasty did not use any coat of arms, the first one to do so was Stefan Lazarevic in the 15th century, who sported the double-headed Byzantine eagle. The "Serbian" cross is verily the Palaiologos family cross, which signifies Βασιλεύς Βασιλέων, ("King of Kings"), i. e. Christ. But it might as well be a crusader variant, substituting Latin "C" for Greek "B". The "Serbian" double-headed eagle is actually the Byzantine imperial eagle, which in turn is the German imperial eagle introduced by emperor Frederick II. The earliest historically attested Serbian coat of arms is the boar's head with an arrow protruding from its mouth (as described in Coat of arms of Triballia). But due to its rather unfavourable symbolism, it has been disregarded in favour of the Palaiologos cross. The current Serbian coat of arms originates from the 17th century, starting with Mauro Orbini and the Illyrian armorials. The same holds true for the current Croatian and Bosnian coats of arms, neither of which is truly historical. Study Ulrich von Richenthal and Konrad Grünenberg and the associated literature, and you will see the light. --213.33.70.33 (talk) 03:29, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian eagle[edit]

@User:Let's keep it neutral: History of Serbian double-headed eagle is fairly well documented under Serbian eagle, drawing its origins from the Byzantine flags and insignia, which in turn says that The emblem mostly associated with the Byzantine Empire, [...] the double-headed eagle [...] os a traditional Anatolian motif dating to Hittite times, and the Byzantines themselves only used it in the last centuries of the Empire.[4] The adoption of the double-headed eagle has sometimes been dated to the mid-11th century, when the Komnenoi supposedly adopted it from Hittite rock-carvings in their native Paphlagonia. I don't see Albanians mentioned anywhere in either article. So please, keep your, to quote you, fantasies beyond belief out of this article, or provide a WP:RS to the contrary. Thanks. No such user (talk) 10:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Albanians are descended from the Illyrians thereby making them the oldest nation in the Balkans, with the oldest language thereby symbolisms. The idea that Albanians would "loan" a symbol of national unity from the Serbs is ludicrous, and an outright insult. Let's keep it neutral (talk) 10:55, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Let's keep it neutral: This article never stated that Albanians "loaned a symbol of national unity from the Serbs". That is you original synthesis. Both Serbs and Albanian took the symbol from the Byzantines, as it's explained in the article. If you have any reliable source to prove that "the double-headed eagle was first used by Albanians", please, provide it, and let other editors discuss it. Otherwise, stop introducing the same edit for which you have no source. Vanjagenije (talk) 11:01, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Byzantines were later-day Romans, they spoke Latin long after the language "died" (or they used it as official). The Illyrians history goes back long before the Byzantines. Let's keep it neutral (talk) 11:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a source for the idea that Byzantines spoke Latin and not Greek? At least their clergy spoke Greek, right? Also, can we please have some consensus as to whether or not "loaned" means the same thing as "borrowed"? I don't think it does. I think it is the opposite of "borrowed". If the Byzantines had a symbol earlier and the Albanians had it later, that means the Albanians "borrowed" it and the Byzantines "loaned" it, or, rather, "lent" it. ("Loan" isn't a verb. "Lend" is a verb. Past tense isn't "loaned" but "lent".) And maybe "inherited"/"bequeathed" is a better way to say it than "borrowed"/"lent". Finally, let's not re-write history because some nation is the oldest in the Balkans as if being first confers some kind of superiority or legitimacy, not unless we're willing to rewrite this page in Common Brittonic or Algonquin. People who didn't have the luck to have been descended from the earliest occupants in a place should not be expected to cede primacy to those who are descended from immigrant groups.2603:7000:9906:A91C:1C64:8308:33BC:E2D6 (talk) 07:19, 9 May 2021 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson[reply]
Albanians may be the descendants of Illyrians but there is nothing to say that Illyrians used a double headed eagle as a symbol. The oldest known use of a double headed eagle by Albanians is by the League of Lezhë in circa 1444 which is way after Serbs started to use a double headed eagle as a symbol. The Coat of Arms of Miroslav of Hum used a double headed eagle in the late 1100s. IJA (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian Coat of Arms of the 1992-Referendum[edit]

Are there any pictures of the Serbian Coat of Arms of the Referendum which was held 1992 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shumokuzame33 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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