Talk:Arab Christians/Archive 9

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Diaspora opinion polls

Sources

It would be helpful to bring together diaspora opinion polls here, on the question of Christian emigrants retaining the Arab identity. I will add ones I can find. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:21, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

  • Christians are less likely than Muslims to accept the "Arab American" label. While 61 percent of Christians think the term describes them accurately, only 45 percent of Iraqi Christians do. Thirty percent of Christians from Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt would prefer to be called something other than "Arab American." Muslims, regardless of national origin, welcome the term, with 82 percent saying it describes them. Detroit Arab American Study
  • Syrian-Lebanese diaspora in both Argentina and Brazil and organized several political and cultural programmes. Like the emerging Arab nationalism movement, the secular pan-Syrianism of the SSNP found a following among the Greek Orthodox community. [1]
  • The first Pan-American Arab Congress was held in October 1973 in the Homs Club of Buenos Aires, where a pioneer Arab Argentine Federation was created in 1972. The meeting was attended by hundreds of delegates from Brazil, Bolivia, Colombia, Chile, Uruguay Venezuela, and a number of Arab diplomatic representatives in the region. Their goal was to establish national federations of Arab entities in every Latin American country. [2]
  • Today, according to the 2010 Census, there are 1,967,570 persons in the United States who reported an Arab ancestry, a figure considered by the Arab American Institute (Note 20) and Zogby International as significantly lower than the actual number which they estimate at 3,665,389... Christians constitute an overwhelming majority of Arab Americans. A 2002 Zogby International survey suggests that 63 percent of this group are Christian, 24 percent Muslim, and 13 percent who either identify with another religion or simply do not practice any faith at all (see Figure 4) (Note 32). Conversely, while Arab American Christians are divided between Eastern churches (Orthodox) and Latin rite churches (Maronite, Melkite, and Chaldean), most Arab American Muslims belong to one of the two main branches of Islam: Sunni and Shi‟a (Note 33). [3]
  • Regardless of numbers, Antiochian Orthodox, both in Metro Detroit and the U.S., are more likely to self-identify with the label Arab or Arab American than the other large Eastern Rite Christian faiths. Even though they have large numbers across the U.S., Coptic Catholics and Coptic Orthodox do not self-identify as Arab or Arab American as readily as Antiochians (Jones 2000). Maronite Catholics and Chaldeans outnumber Antiochian Orthodox in the Detroit area, but like Copts, tend to shy away from the labels Arab or Arab American, instead choosing to celebrate a national identity (such as Iraqi or Lebanese) or the identity of the ancient civilization (such as Babylonian or Phoenician) (Shryock and Lin 2009) [4]
  • While I was in Egypt, I observed that Copts and Muslims alike, when asked, uniformly insisted that they were Arabs. It is interesting that in the West at least some members of the Coptic immigrant community are beginning to think of themselves as ‘non-Arab,’ yet continue to believe they are Egyptian[5]

Discussion

The first "study" says: Compared to Arab Americans nationwide, they are more likely to be immigrant, Muslim, and from Iraq or Yemen. Seventy-five percent of Arabs and Chaldeans were born outside the U.S. While 61 percent of Christians think the term describes them accurately, only 45 percent of Iraqi Christians do. Thirty percent of Christians from Lebanon, Syria, and Egypt would prefer to be called something other than "Arab American."

This study was basically done on a group which was 75% newly arrived immigrant or 1st generation nationals of their respective countries. So this was basically done on newly arrived Christians from the Middle East. This obviously does not reflect anything on the WHOLE DIASPORA, especially the one from 1880-1920 (must of them in their 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation now), which makes up the majority of the diaspora, at least the Lebanese one.

When it said 60% of those newly arrived Christians identified as Arab it took everyone to come up with that number (Lebanon, Syria and Egypt, Iraqis), so if it took 10 Lebanese, 10 Syrians and 10 Egyptians, and all the 10 Lebanese said they dont identify as Arabs, and the 20 others do, the number would come up as 60% doesnt it, but the number is not specific to nationality but took everyone in. Worthless. Here in Wikipedia we look for exactness not vagueness that leaves readers with nothing or even more confused.


The second article (not a study on identity) says the secular pan-Syrianism of the SSNP found a following among the Greek Orthodox community.

How big of a following? What percentage of the whole Greek Orthodox community? Worthless since its vague and says basically nothing.


The third article (not a study on identity) says Their goal was to establish national federations of Arab entities in every Latin American country

Arabism and Pan-Arabism being pushed by entities with an agenda that keep brainwashing the diaspora with propaganda not based on science/facts/history. The 3rd and 4th generation is usually ignorant about the history of their ancestors by the way. This article says nothing on the issue at hand.


On the fourth article, explain to me please on what basis The Arab American Institute considers the mainly descendants of Christian Lebanese in the US of "Arab Christians" if they dont descend nor are genetically Arab (as in Arab tribes/Beduins), dont speak the Arabic language and identify with their country of origin not in terms of ethnicity?. Because the Arab American Institute and its Arabist/Arabism agenda to prey on ignorant descendants of immigrants says so? Have you read the sources that talk about how 2 decades ago the Maronites and the Assyrians wrote and protested to the Arab American Institute to stop them from referring to them as Arabs?

https://www.meforum.org/558/iraqi-assyrians-barometer-of-pluralism http://www.aina.org/releases/caamletter.htm


Back in 2000 they asked the younger population of Byblos how did they identify and about 65% said they identified as Phoenicians. In places like Tyre where its almost fully muslim, the number of people who stated this were very low. Im pretty sure in most Christian Lebanese towns you will get a number close to 65% of people who identify as Phoenician as well or a mix. In general, I assume that because only 20-25% in Lebanon is Maronite you will get around those same numbers in general in Lebanon. with the other 15% probably saying they are a mix of Arab and Phoenician or perhaps Greek and Phoenician. Source- http://www.dailystar.com.lb/Opinion/Commentary/1999/Apr-28/106807-how-lebanese-teenagers-view-themselves.ashx. How this translates into the diaspora numbers is purely speculative and I could not find a source for it. Chris O' Hare (talk) 01:37, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Same issues keep being brought back into the article without consensus after long discussions in the past

A lot of the new additions go against the long discussion that took place a couple of months ago here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8. Do not revert back without discussion in talk page.

1) Changes in some sections were not an improvement, important information was left out. I have added back the information that was removed.

2) As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8 , leave the diaspora (which is mainly Lebanese diaspora) alone. The Lebanese diaspora does not speak Arabic, and the definition of Arab Christian is ethnic Arabs that were Christians and indigenous populations that speak Arabic but are not ethnic Arabs. Therefore descendants of the Arabic speaking indigenous populations that do not speak Arabic cannot be included in this article.

3) The numbers included in the newly created section Affiliated Communities include the descendants of the diaspora (which is mainly Lebanese Christian) and as per the discussion in Archive 8 above it has been established those numbers (which include for example the descendants of Maronites and other Lebanese Christians) do not fit in this article.

4) Even the newly added picture in the infobox goes against what was discussed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8

5) If the Chaldeans identify themselves as Arabs or accepted that identity then it doesnt belong in the Question of Identity section.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris O' Hare (talk • contribs)

@Chris O' Hare: JJNito has been working on this article in good faith for months, with constructive talk page discussion and consensus amongst involved editors. I don’t see any sign of a previous consensus in the discussion you linked to, but even if there was, note that WP:CCC.
This is a complex topic, and needs to be treated with kid gloves. Crucially we must focus on the sources for the definition and scope (see some helpful quotes in the threads above).
On your Lebanese diaspora points, you need sources to support your position. I will look for the same, but I can tell you anecdotally that:
(a) Implying that all Lebanese Christians do not consider themselves Arab is nonsense. See Arab American literature; was Khalil Gibran not considered an Arab by himself and others?
(b) Talking about Lebanese Christians in one group is nonsense. Not only do the Maronites, Orthodox, Armenians and others have very different identities, the identities are heavily fragmented within that group. Many Maronites consider themselves “Arab”, not racially but culturally.
(c) You wrote the definition of Arab Christian is ethnic Arabs that were Christians and indigenous populations that speak Arabic but are not ethnic Arabs. This is simply nonsense. You can see the scholarly position in the source excerpts in the threads above. Most importantly, you seem to be implying that there is a difference between “ethnic Arab” and “indigenous population”. Ethnic Arab doesn’t mean racial-Arab, descended from bedouins in the desert. It means being part of the Arab culture, which is mostly linguistic in nature. The vast majority of the Arab Christians were indigenous populations who were Arabized (the same is of course true for most Arab Muslims). It is really no different from a term like “Hispanic Christians”. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:23, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

You and JJNito should have joined the discussion I spent a long time reaching ground with Synphax98 exactly about the same issues JJNito chose to totally rework. You and JJNito are not newbies here. Instead of joining the discussion you chose to open your new one and completely ignored the previous discussion.

The main issue with his edits I have already explained in my opening of this section. As already discussed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8, regardless of what one part of the Lebanese Christian consider themselves as, the Diaspora has to be left out of this page. The reasons and sources for that are all presented in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8

JJNito has been working on this article in good faith for months, with constructive talk page discussion and consensus amongst involved editors. I don’t see any sign of a previous consensus in the discussion you linked to, but even if there was, note that WP:CCC.

From what im reading in the Talk Page it was you and JJNito over ten paragraphs going in circles with the something that was discussed OVER A WHOLE PAGE of discussion with sources and sticking to the wikipedia policies here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8. You seem to like to play with words and in the end I saw in your arguments that you came to a conclusion that was already mentioned clearly in the article. Now you are choosing to defend JJNitos edits which actually go against what you are agreeing to which is the importance to make the distinction between racially Arab christians and Christians that are not racially Arab but became Arabized.

On your Lebanese diaspora points, you need sources to support your position. I provided dozens of sources here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8. If you and JJNito would have joined the discussion and debated them with newer sources we wouldnt be having this problem

Ethnic Arab doesn’t mean racial-Arab, descended from bedouins in the desert. It means being part of the Arab culture, which is mostly linguistic in nature. This was stated in the previous version of the article. JJNito chose to erase that there are two types of Arab Christians: the ones that are racially Arab and became Christians and the ones that are not racially Arab but became Arabized. Which is why I added that back.

He also started adding a bunch of numbers and personalities of the diaspora when it was already discussed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8 that the descendants of the diaspora are neither racially nor culturally Arab and should all be left out of the article. But JJNito decided to include them again which is why I took it out.

Implying that all Lebanese Christians do not consider themselves Arab is nonsense. See Arab American literature; was Khalil Gibran not considered an Arab by himself and others? (b) Talking about Lebanese Christians in one group is nonsense. Not only do the Maronites, Orthodox, Armenians and others have very different identities, the identities are heavily fragmented within that group. Many Maronites consider themselves “Arab”, not racially but culturally

This was already said in the pre-JJNito work of art. His rework took away the "teaching the controversy over identity in Maronites" part and instead simplified the section to a point that the reader leaves almost blank about the details of the issue. My reversal of some of his edits in no way are intended to insinuate or affirm that all Lebanese Christians view themselves as Phoenicians or as Non-Arabs.

You wrote the definition of Arab Christian is ethnic Arabs that were Christians and indigenous populations that speak Arabic but are not ethnic Arabs. This is simply nonsense. You can see the scholarly position in the source excerpts in the threads above.

What scholarly position are you talking about? Because if its the Noble and Treiger one you added then its saying pretty much what was said in the article before JJNito personal remix of the article and it was said clearly and better, which is why I said in my reversion of some of his edits and additional sections that his edits were not an improvement.

The Tijmen Baarda source about the Chaldeans say that the Chaldeans willingly accepted their Arab identity which is why the Chaldeans have no place in the Question of Identiy section and should be taken out which I did. That section should only include those that are resisting (or at least part of them) which are the Assyrians, Maronites, Copts and Arameans in Israel.

Ethnic Arab doesn’t mean racial-Arab, descended from bedouins in the desert. It means being part of the Arab culture, which is mostly linguistic in nature. The vast majority of the Arab Christians were indigenous populations who were Arabized (the same is of course true for most Arab Muslims). It is really no different from a term like “Hispanic Christians”

Yes, correct, I should have said racially Arab instead of ethnic Arab. Again there are two types of Arab Christians: the racially Arab and the Arabized ones which are not racially Arab. This was stated in the first sentences of the article which is why I added it back after your friend JJNito starting playing with the article like a toy his mother bought himChris O' Hare (talk) 21:13, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare:

Addressing all your points. Everything added was significant, NEUTRAL, factual and sourced. (I am going to souce further). I have no particular affinty, I am not even a Christian! I never bothered editing this article intially but decided to when seeing how barebones it was compared to other articles. I waited to see what you wrote further but now I understand you are vexed somehow. Thats not my problem. You have been a significant problem pushing NPOV viewpoints. If you admit you are a Maronite who ascribes to a pheonician idenity, let it be known. That will us give greater understanding to your misplaced anger. Its funny going about articles and seeing it makes a point about Maronite origins but other articles on Greek Orthodox/Melkite Christians are simply labled 'Arab Christian'. this was one of my main reasons for taking on this article, to give people better understanding about the other Arab Christians that are overshadowed (by Maronites) in the west.

We all have separate origins, you are not understanding fully the 'Arab Christian' label yet. This was suggested by helpful contributors on this talk page, not myself, to give better understaning the to present 'arab identity' arab Chritians deal with.

If its any consolidation I tried to make this article not mention the Maronites significiantly. All the images I added on that page are non-Maronite Christians (other than the new one), and if given the power through consensus, I would earnestly replace all Maronites with other significant Arab Christians, as there is plenty to choose from. I do not see through this sectarian lense so it doesn't bother me!

Regards JJNito197 (talk) 21:48, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare: please note you have reverted three times. Please see the 3RR rule at WP:EW. I will respond to your points above. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:03, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Its funny going about articles and seeing it makes a point about Maronite origins but other articles on Greek Orthodox/Melkite Christians are simply labled 'Arab Christian'. this was one of my main reasons for taking on this article, to give people better understanding about the other Arab Christians that are overshadowed (by Maronites) in the west.

JJNito if what you wanted was to expand on the Grek Orthodox/Melkite Christians GREAT. If you see my edit, I actually left the new section of Arab Identity you added to expand on just that. That was indeed an improvement to the article BUT on top of that you decided to basically REWORK the whole article.

Before you do something like that you need to consult the TALK PAGE in order to see what issues have been discussed so we dont go all over the same thing again here. You are not a new editor here. If you would have done that we wouldnt be having this problem. I spent a loooong time trying to reach consensus with Syphax98 about a lot of things in this article.


We all have separate origins, you are not understanding fully the 'Arab Christian' label yet.

Im pretty clear on it and on everything that is debatable about this topic I provided dozens of sources here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8

Wikipedia is about providing sources and sticking to policy. You just cant come into an article and remove sourced material, completely change the whole format of it and then expect that nobody is going to complain about that.

Lots of sections in this article did not need any of the additions that you did. You removed a important information on the first section and added a bunch of things that go against what was discussed on the Talk Page with Syphax98.

But im going to engage in consensus building despite your disregard for various points already discussed and the fact that you have reverted/rereverted and erased my comment on your Talk Page without even elaborating which is one more violation that I will report you on. So:

1)How is removing "Some are descended from ancient Arab Christian clans that did not convert to Islam, such as the Sabaean tribes of Yemen (i.e., Ghassanids, Banu Judham) and the Nabataeans who settled in Transjordan and Syria, and others are descended from Arabized Christians, such as Melkites and Antiochian Greek Christians" an improvement? Indeed a part of the Melkites and Greek Orthodox are racially Arabs not just Arabized so instead of removing everything you could have added that.

2) How is adding the section Arab Identity just below Islamic Era an improvement over putting it above the Question of Identity section? If your motive is indeed clarifying certain things about the identity of the Melkites and the Orthodox Christians why not just place above the Question of Identity section for better reading and understanding?

3) How is adding a picture of Mikhail Mishaqa over a picture of Selim Taqla in the Nahda section better? Was Mikhail Mishaqa a central figure in the Nahda? You are pushing him there because?

4) Does the comment "It is a common agreement that after the rapid expansion of Islam from the 7th century onward, many Christians chose not to convert to Islam. Many scholars and intellectuals like Edward Said believe Christians in the Arab world have made significant contributions to the Arab civilization since the introduction of Islam" belong in the Modern Era section? Is the 7th century modern era?

5) What is this Legacy section that you added? All that you added there is part of the Nahda movement which is why I placed it there in my edit. How is that out of place Legacy section an improvement to the article?

6) The "Arab" personalities you added in the Diaspora section ARE NOT ARAB CHRISTIANS as has been already discussed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8 95% of those personalities are descendants of Lebanese Chrisitians who are not of racially Arab descent and DO NOT SPEAK ARABIC nor are culturally Arab in any way.

7) All the numbers you included in the Affiliated Communities section included the descendants of the DIASPORA if you look at the sources. In the infobox Maronites of Lebanon are excluded from the infobox numbers yet in your new rework you then go ahead and say there are 3.5 million ARAB CHRISTIAN MARONITES?? Just for this insolence and total disregard for the issue at hand I should reverted ALL YOUR WORK, instead im practicing patience ONE MORE TIME here.

You wanted to add numbers here? Sure you are welcome. But the DIASPORA numbers need to be subtracted. And the excluded religious groups of the infobox SHOULD NOT BE ADDED in your newly created columns. Otherwise this is a MAJOR contradiction you have included in your newly published book you did here in this article.

Your "Membership primarily subscribes to Arab identity?" column is also totally unsourced, where did you get your YESES, NOS and MIXED CRAP???

8) How is shortening what was said about the Assyrians, Maronites and Copts an improvement in the Question of Identity section? How is deleting the Arameans in Israel paragraph an improvement? And how is adding the Chaldeans who do not question their Arab identity according to the own words and sources you wrote a logical addition to the section? How is categorizing all these groups as Syriac Christians at the top of the section an improvement? Are Copts Syriac Christians?

The nerve and the incompetence you have shown with some of your edits have turned the article into one big contradiction and greatly decreased the meaning and purpose of this article.

If your intention was the improvement on the identity and numbers of the Melkites/Orthodox Christians part you should have done just and leave the rest of the article alone.

If you dont explain and elaborate with sources the 8 above points/questions I will report your disruptive edits.Chris O' Hare (talk) 22:55, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare: I have read your comment to me at 21:13, 12 March 2021. Thank you. It seems like we agree on all the main points. That is excellent. I will bring out a few points below where I think we may disagree:

As already discussed here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8, regardless of what one part of the Lebanese Christian consider themselves as, the Diaspora has to be left out of this page.

Do you have any sources which state that Christians of Arab ethnicity in the diaspora no longer consider themselves Arab Christians? Surely many members of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America consider themselves Arab Christians?

On your Lebanese diaspora points, you need sources to support your position.

Please let me know which points you disagree with, and I will bring sources.

He also started adding a bunch of numbers and personalities of the diaspora when it was already discussed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8 that the descendants of the diaspora are neither racially nor culturally Arab and should all be left out of the article. But JJNito decided to include them again which is why I took it out.

These personalities can be in here if we have sources explicitly describing them as Arab Christians

Again there are two types of Arab Christians: the racially Arab and the Arabized ones which are not racially Arab.

Two points here. First, the term race is obsolete from a scholarly perspective today. There is really no such thing as the "Arab race" or a "racially Arab" person. What does Arab even mean? Are the Gulf Arabs "racially Arab"? Do you need to be from a desert-climate to be "Arab"? Do you need to prove 1,500 years of genetic purity to be "Arab". No. When was the first Arabic speaker? Originally Arabic was just a dialect of the classical regional lingua franca, Aramaic. So surely after that first Arabic speaker, then everyone was Arabized?
Of course I know what you really mean; the above is intended to highlight that the concept is one that needs to be treated very carefully.
If we take your implied distinction of "Christian Arabs from Arabia" and "Christian Arabs from the Levant and Mesopotamia", the latter makes up about 99% of the topic, so must focus the article on that. Onceinawhile (talk) 23:12, 12 March 2021 (UTC)


@Chris O' Hare:

1)How is removing "Some are descended from ancient Arab Christian clans that did not convert to Islam, such as the Sabaean tribes of Yemen (i.e., Ghassanids, Banu Judham) and the Nabataeans who settled in Transjordan and Syria, and others are descended from Arabized Christians, such as Melkites and Antiochian Greek Christians" an improvement? Indeed a part of the Melkites and Greek Orthodox are racially Arabs not just Arabized so instead of removing everything you could have added that.

Because it automatically takes this article down an 'Arabian' ethnic route which doesn't give credence to the separate origins EACH member of the designated 'Arab Christian' group has or claims.

2)How is adding the section Arab Identity just below Islamic Era an improvement over putting it above the Question of Identity section?

That is where the Arab Identity today has roots in, the Islamic Era.

3) How is adding a picture of Mikhail Mishaqa over a picture of Selim Taqla in the Nahda section better?

It's purely aesthetic but it helps that hes a Melkite (not Orthodox), survived the Damascus massacre of Christians and is said to be the first historian of modern Ottoman Syria during the time of the Nahda. The first historian of Ottoman Syria is a prestigious title

4) Does the comment "It is a common agreement that after the rapid expansion of Islam from the 7th century onward, many Christians chose not to convert to Islam. Many scholars and intellectuals like Edward Said believe Christians in the Arab world have made significant contributions to the Arab civilization since the introduction of Islam" belong in the Modern Era section?

It's talking about today using the word 'onward' and Edward Said was noted to have said that. It's used as a segway to the other topics for which the following sub-categories are designated, all within the timeframe of the 'Modern era'.

Modern Era (header)

Religious persecution (subheader) 1850 - onwards

Regional conflicts (subheader) 1948 - onwards

5) What is this Legacy section that you added? All that you added there is part of the Nahda movement which is why I placed it there in my edit. How is that out of place Legacy section an improvement to the article?

The Legacy section acts as a conclusion and lists things which Arab Christians have influenced that exist in the fundemental aspects of Arab society today, like Arab nationalism, Syrian nationalism and entertainmemt, which links to the 'diaspora' SUB-HEADER.

6) The "Arab" personalities you added in the Diaspora section ARE NOT ARAB CHRISTIANS as has been already discussed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians/Archive_8

You are not fully understanding the meaning 'Arab Christian' and how it was presented from the start of the article where it lists specifically 'arabized christians'. If your conclusion is to remove Maronites specifically, do it and I will make up for it with non-maronites. The map you included as a main photo btw wasn't removed by me it was by an editor who had valid reasons for doing so.

7) All the numbers you included in the Affiliated Communities section included the descendants of the DIASPORA if you look at the sources. In the infobox Maronites of Lebanon are excluded from the infobox numbers yet in your new rework you then go ahead and say there are 3.5 million ARAB CHRISTIAN MARONITES?? Just for this insolence and total disregard for the issue at hand I should reverted ALL YOUR WORK, instead im practicing patience ONE MORE TIME here.

Replace the source then. Your solution is to just to revert not to contribute. My work could have been done by anyone invested in this topic. Why should the wiki Arab Christian page have to fall into disreptute due to stonewalling and emply threats. The Arab Christian legacy deserves to be explained and shown to those unaware.

7a) You wanted to add numbers here? Sure you are welcome. But the DIASPORA numbers need to be substracted. And the excluded religious groups of the infobox SHOULD NOT BE ADDED. Otherwise this is a MAJOR contradiction you have included in your newly published book you did here in this article.

See above.

7b)Your "Membership primarily subscribes to Arab identity?" column is also totally unsourced, where did you get your YESES, NOS and MIXED CRAP???

Because its a yes, no, or mixed answer. Surely even you understand some Maronites ascribe to the Arab Identity.

8) How is shortening what was said about the Assyrians, Maronites and Copts an improvement in the Question of Identity section? How is deleting the Arameans in Israel paragraph an improvement? And how is adding the Chaldeans who do not question their Arab identity according to the own words and sources you wrote a logical addition to the section? How is categorizing all these groups as Syriac Christians at the top of the section an improvement? Are Copts Syriac Christians?

How is adding Arameans in Israel paragraph an improvement? It's an internal matter about how we can make maronites/others separate from the arabs. Maronites constitute a tiny minority of Christians in Israel so why should this be on the 'Arab Christian' page and not the Maronite page? There are over 130,000 Arab-identifying Christians in Israel. You need to also understand that is a subheader. You can change that to Syriac Rite if that helps.

9) The nerve and the incompetence you have shown with some of your edits have turned the article into one big contradiction and if you dont explain and elaborate with sources the 8 above points/questions I will report your disruptive edits.

Nothing added to that article constitutes such backlash. I tried to accomodate 'Antiochian Greeks' because thats what Orthodox/Melkites sub identify as. If you feel compelled to add a Phoenician identity, please note this thought is confined to the Maronites. You added extensive work to the Israeli section about Arab christians which benefitted this article greatly. I'm completly NEUTRAL so the reason you have come for me seems unjust and contrived. You may not identify as an Arab Christian but thats on YOU. Regards 

JJNito197 (talk) 00:04, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile:

Do you have any sources which state that Christians of Arab ethnicity in the diaspora no longer consider themselves Arab Christians? Surely many members of the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America consider themselves Arab Christians?

The majority of the "Arab" diaspora is Lebanese Christian

1) As per science and genetics:

-When it comes to the haplogroups of the Lebanese, J2 has a lot of different subclades, and the ones present on the Maronites and other Lebanese Chr istians at ahigher rate are not the same J2 subclades present in the Lebanese muslim or the other parts of the Arabian peninsula. The G2 subclades and the L-M subclades are also different in the Christian and Muslim communities of Lebanon. The genetic differences in haplogroups between Christian and Lebanese Muslim is therefore found in the SUBCLADES not the major haplogroups which say nothing about nothing actually as per https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3062011

-"all Jews (Sephardi and Ashkenazi) cluster in one branch; Druze from Mount Lebanon and Druze from Mount Carmel are depicted on a private branch; and Lebanese Christians form a private branch with the Christian populations of Armenia and Cyprus placing the Lebanese Muslims as an outer group. Lebanese Muslims are extended towards Syrians, Palestinians, and Jordanians, which are close to Saudis and Bedouins" as per https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3585000/ Graphic clusters here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3585000_pgen.1003316.g002.jpg

"Lebanese Christians are today genetically similar to local people who lived during the Roman period which preceded the Crusades by more than four centuries". https://www.cell.com/ajhg/supplemental/S0002-9297(19)30111-9

2) The descendants of the Lebanese Christian diaspora DO NOT SPEAK ARABIC. So they are genetically and culturally not ARAB as per the definition of what being Arab or Arabized means. Even the wiki article on Arab Identify says "Arab identity can be described as consisting of many interconnected parts" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_identity#Categories and things like historical unity, ethnicity, self-concept and other are part of those parts. Perhaps you should review that article before you start including Arab identity to whoever you please and excluse whoever you please.

3) Do they consider themselves ARABS? Any sources for that? Two decades ago the Maronites and the Assyrians wrote and protested to the Arab American Institute to stop them from referring to them as Arabs https://www.meforum.org/558/iraqi-assyrians-barometer-of-pluralism http://www.aina.org/releases/caamletter.htm

I dont have a source for the percentage of Lebanese Orthodox Christians and Melkites in the diaspora that talks about whether they or some consider themselves as "Arabs". But I can tell as I member of the diaspora from 1880-1920 that the descendants of Lebanese Christians refer to themselves as of LEBANESE DESCENT. PERIOD. NOTHING ELSE. And most of them want nothing to do with anything Arabic and have fully absorbed western culture.

These personalities can be in here if we have sources explicitly describing them as Arab Christians

As per what I just said above that is a BIG NO.

There is really no such thing as the "Arab race" or a "racially Arab" person. What does Arab even mean? Are the Gulf Arabs "racially Arab"? Do you need to be from a desert-climate to be "Arab"? Do you need to prove 1,500 years of genetic purity to be "Arab". No. When was the first Arabic speaker? Originally Arabic was just a dialect of the classical regional lingua franca, Aramaic. So surely after that first Arabic speaker, then everyone was Arabized?

Sources that can answer your "What does Arab even mean?" without deviating from the academically established definition of what being an Arab means are

https://teachmideast.org/articles/arab-middle-eastern-and-muslim-whats-the-difference/ Which says "In each of these (Arab) countries there may be different ethnic groups whose mother tongue is not Arabic. Members of these groups may also speak Arabic, but they might not identify themselves as Arabs. For example, in both Chad and Iraq, members of non-Arab ethnic groups use Arabic as a lingua franca to communicate".

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/04/discovery/who-is-an-arab?lang=eng This one says "Who is an Arab? The answer varies according to the person giving the reply". Then says "Perhaps the most historically accurate answer is that most often given by Christians and Jews: the Arabs are descendants of Ishmael. But not all Arabs are Ishmaelites. The earliest Arabians, according to the Bible, were the descendants of Joktan, who lived five generations after the flood". Then it goes an enlists the Cannanites and Phoenicians as descendants of Ham, the Arameans as descendants of Aram and the Assyrians as the descendants of Asshur showing that they are clearly differents ethnic groups based on biblical genealogy.

Lebanese Christians are indigenous people of the Levant (Canaanites) who have lived there since 12,000 BC mixed with ancient Caucasian Anatolians around 5,000 BC as per https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7332655

I have provided you the genetic studies sources that distinguish Lebanese Christians from Arabs (made up mostly of Beduins, and most of todays Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc)

Also Lebanese people, especially most Lebanese Christians, should never call themselves Arabs (as in racially or even ethnically Arabs), but Levantines and Canaanites because their cultural and historical timeline is very different than that of the Arabs (or Arab tribes if you prefer). The history and cultural timeline of the region of Canaan and the Levant is the common denominator of the Lebanese.

Do the Lebanese share the history of Canaan and Phoenicia with the Arabs? Do they share the same history of Hellenization and the Roman and Byzantine times and in the same way with the Arabs? ? Do the Levantines share the exact same roles and achievements of the Islamic Golden Age (aka The Translation Movement) with the Arabs? Did the Crusades took place in the Arabian desert and lands of the Arabs? Were the leading figures in literature, acting and directing, architecture of the Nahda "Arabic" Renaissance of XIX century in Cairo Arabs or Levantines? Was the Mahjar movement developed by the Arabs or the Levantines?

Any Lebanese, especially a Lebanese Christian, that refers to himself/herself as a Phoenician or an Arab is only picking a glimpse of the historical/culture timeline of his homeland/ancestors and is ultimately incorrect in his/her choice of identity just like a Scandinavian refering to himself as a Viking or a Spaniard refering to himself as a Celt or a Visigoth.

Lets not mistake Phoenicia with the maritime culture that prevailed in the region until the region was besieged by Alexander the Great in 300 BC. Phoenicia/Canaan was/is also a region and its indigenous inhabitants continued living on there until this very day, there were not wiped out nor replaced by any invader population.

Lastly, the Arabic language and culture wasnt forced in the indigenious population when the Arabs where there from 650-1000AD, it was the Levantines themselves that decided to speak it as their main language 300 years ago around the 17th-18th century since thats what their neighbors spoke, and the Levantines (since Phoenician times) have always been known for assimilating the culture that surrounds them, adopting it willingly.Chris O' Hare (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare:

  • (1) Arabness is an identity not a "race". Turning to DNA suggests a misunderstanding here, particularly as you are seemingly interpreting it to argue for "racial essentialism". See an excellent recent article on that topic here.[6]
  • (2) The rest of what you wrote was unsourced, so I cannot meaningfully engage with it. I will say one thing. A number of your comments appear to be underpinned by your own experience as "as [a] member of the [Lebanese Christian] diaspora from 1880-1920". Your personal experience is important and insightful. But you have not carried out an opinion survey of your peers. And I can bring you countless examples of Lebanese Christian immigrants from that period who do consider themselves to have "Arab" ancestry.

Onceinawhile (talk) 09:56, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Three more points for Chris:
Onceinawhile (talk) 10:52, 13 March 2021 (UTC)


@JJNito197:


Because it automatically takes this article down an 'Arabian' ethnic route which doesn't give credence to the separate origins EACH member of the designated 'Arab Christian' group has or claims.

Wrong. The previous definition, which is what the source that is cited https://web.archive.org/web/20041105161338/http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/intro_arab_christians.htm says, did exactly that which you want to give credence to. The previous definition said "Some are descended from ancient Arab Christian clans that did not convert to Islam, such as the Sabaean tribes of Yemen (i.e., Ghassanids, Banu Judham) and the Nabataeans who settled in Transjordan and Syria, AND OTHERS are descended from Arabized Christians, such as Melkites and Antiochian Greek Christians" and THIS IS WHAT THE SOURCE WHICH YOU HAD THE NERVE TO LEAVE WHILE CHANGING THE DEFINITION SAYS.

You are distoring what the source you left says and adding your own original research without adding a new source violating https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR

Now if the academic definition of what an Arab Christian means has changed you need to bring a source to support that, which you have not.

Christians that identify has Arab (as in culturally and linguistically Arab not racially/genetically Arab) are called "ARABIZED CHRISTIANS" by the academic community as per https://web.archive.org/web/20041105161338/http://www.arabicbible.com/christian/intro_arab_christians.htm not "Arab Christians" and they actually HAVE NO PLACE IN THIS ARTICLE as per the definition of what an Arab Christian is and should be elaborated in the article Christianity in the Middle East as per the "This article is about Arabs of the Christian faith. For Christian communities and sects (including non-Arab Christians), see Christianity in the Middle East." at the beginning of the article.

In the past I considered taking away all the personalities mentioned in the Nahda and Mahjar sections because those are NOT Arab Christians but Arabized Christians. Since the definition of Arab Christians before your rework mentioned the distinction I decided to leave them there but in reality they DO NOT BELONG TO THIS ARTICLE.

Now tag teammate and meatpuppet Onceinawhile that came to rescue you quicker than you rescued yourself, wants to come in here to argue that being Arab is JUST an identity also without providing any sources for that. His "source" is that race and ancestry (aka lineage/ancestors) and genetic studies leads to racial essentialism, but that is not a source but a philosophy he adheres to as part of his obvious Arabism and perhaps as part of his anti-Israel agenda for which he is an international celebrity.


That is where the Arab Identity today has roots in, the Islamic Era

Whose Arab Identity? Certainly not all because the Lebanese spoke Aramaic until the 13th century, and Syriac until the 16th-17th century and started speaking "Arabic" in the 16th-17th centuries WAY WAY after the Arabs were in the Levant from 650 AD-1000AD and they did this willingly because nobody spoke Aramaic/Syriac among their neighbors in the area anymore as per https://books.google.se/books?id=QG5tAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA31&dq=lebanese+started+speaking+arabic+in+the+17th+century&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjFxP2d57DvAhX4AhAIHYxSCP4Q6AEwAHoECAIQAg#v=onepage&q=lebanese%20started%20speaking%20arabic%20in%20the%2017th%20century&f=false.

Now sure the Lebanese Melkites and Orthodoxs adopted the Arabic language during the Arab period but that doesnt necessarily means they started to identify themselves as Arabs just that they became bilingual and infused the Arabic language into their own Aramaic dialect as per http://www.lebaneselanguage.org/language/history/

Where is your source that Lebanese and other Levantine Christians started to identify as Arabs after the Muslim Conquest of the Levant just because they spoke Arabic and became bilingual or infused Arabic in their Aramaic?


It's purely aesthetic but it helps that hes a Melkite (not Orthodox), survived the Damascus massacre of Christians and is said to be the first historian of modern Ottoman Syria during the time of the Nahda. The first historian of Ottoman Syria is a prestigious title

Here in Wikipedia were are not interested in aesthetic as the main goal. Here in Wikipedia we are careful not to give undue weight. "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement" in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Undue_weight

Placing a picture of Mikhail Mishaqa instead of lets say Butrus al-Bustani in the Nahda section is giving undue weight to the wrong figure. I know you like it because you are a Melkite or an Orthodox perhaps but here in Wikipedia we dont come to jerk off on our wishes.


You are not fully understanding the meaning 'Arab Christian' and how it was presented from the start of the article where it lists specifically 'arabized christians'. If your conclusion is to remove Maronites specifically, do it and I will make up for it with non-maronites. The map you included as a main photo btw wasn't removed by me it was by an editor who had valid reasons for doing so

Its not what I understand or what you and your tag mate Onceinawhile understand, its what the source/sources says. As per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Using_sources Source material should be carefully summarized or rephrased without changing its meaning or implication. Take care not to go beyond what is expressed in the sources, or to use them in ways inconsistent with the intention of the source, such as using material out of context. Also as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quoting_out_of_context

Wikipedia is not a place to rephrase things as we would like them to sound or seem, but to say what is said on reliable sources written by experts and academics. If you and your buddy Once have opinions about this topic you go to your favorite Arabist or anti-Israel forum and debate your definitions there not here.


If your conclusion is to remove Maronites specifically, do it and I will make up for it with non-maronites. The map you included as a main photo btw wasn't removed by me it was by an editor who had valid reasons for doing so

No. You need a source for every single one of the personalities you have added in your cute list that states each one of them identifies as an Arab. 85% of those personalities are descendants of Lebanese Chrisitians, and descendants of Lebanese Christians in the diaspora are neither descendants of Arab tribes nor are genetically Bediun/Arab but of Levantine/Canaanite descent and do not speak Arabic nor are culturally Arab. NONE.


Your "Membership primarily subscribes to Arab identity?" column is also totally unsourced, where did you get your YESES, NOS and MIXED CRAP??? Because its a yes, no, or mixed answer. Surely even you understand some Maronites ascribe to the Arab Identity.

Maybe in Lebanon they do, obviously meaning CULTURALLY AND LINGUISTICALLY ARAB but do you have a source that the descendants of the DIASPORA do? Because all those numbers you included in your newly reworked Affiliated Communities section include the adherents of those Christian denominations IN THE DIASPORA AS WELL and you have not added a source for all those numbers for EACH of your YES, NO, MIXED invention. SOURCES????? Mixed as in 80% Yes and 20% no or as in 50% Yes- 50% No??. Where are the sources?


I have no proposal for you and I am reporting you for your unsourced edits and your disruptive waysChris O' Hare (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chris O' Hare:

I've changed the main image collage to non Maronite people and took on some of your advice in your previous comments. Keep the vitriol to yourself though. Firstly, I have been trying to get this to Good Article status alone for the last few weeks. I just needed to provide more sources to get it to the next stage, for which I now have done. Secondly, we dont use your interpretation of diaspora or Arab Christian. I already explained your fanatacism for maronite execptionlism and Lebanese superiority (you dont own the Lebanese Christian label) is the whole reason you are NOT coming across NEUTRAL. Most importantly you need to learn to speak for yourself. You are trying to stonewall this article by 'owning' the Lebanese Christian label, which you do not have the right. Syrian and Lebanese Greek Orthodox communities have more in common with each other than towards Maronites, such is the sectarian, ethno-religious way of looking at the past. Also, I only expanded with new or preexisting stuff, I didn't delete anything of worth. You need to look through the logs because I am not the only person working on it and you have shown your self up. I really want this article to be done so I can MOVE ON. You clearly like this back and forth stuff but I dont and would rather communicate with people that want to improve wikipedia. See WP:ADVOCACY. Regards JJNito197 (talk) 02:39, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@JJNito197:

My comments on your reply are here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians#The_cultural_appropriation_through_false_identity_assignations_and_%22inclusivist_non-nationalistic_philosophies%22_%28aka_the_new_name_for_Arabism%2FPan-Arabist_agenda%29_that_will_be_stopped_here_in_Wikipedia

You have also been reported https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Users_User:JJNito197_and_User:Onceinawhile_continuous_disruptive_editing_and_major_rework_of_article_Arab_Christians


@Onceinawhile:


Arabness is an identity not a "race". Turning to DNA suggests a misunderstanding here, particularly as you are seemingly interpreting it to argue for "racial essentialism". See an excellent recent article on that topic here

I get that you are an Arabist and you enjoy going Socrates on the readers here as part of your Arabist propaganda looking to make non-arab Christians seem as if they were arabs/identify as arabs so they can join you in your anti-israel campaign and die as an "Arab".

Here in Wikipedia we state what the academic experts have defined what Arab Christians are. PERIOD. We dont use something like racial essentialism here in Wikipedia as an excuse to not state what the sources say about what Arab Christians are. I know it suits your arabist/anti-israel agenda but sorry soldier, you go fight your protest in forums not here.


The rest of what you wrote was unsourced, so I cannot meaningfully engage with it.

You mean the part that elaborates on historical genealogy which is different than genetics? Because I provided two sources https://teachmideast.org/articles/arab-middle-eastern-and-muslim-whats-the-difference/ and https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1974/04/discovery/who-is-an-arab?lang=eng

You seem to have chosen to disregard or ignore these two sources I provided you which makes you a disruptive user as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing#Examples_of_disruptive_editing.

You also kept asking me to cite those two paragraphs of common knowledge of history of the Levant? You want me to cite you that the sky is blue which also makes you disruptive user as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_don%27t_need_to_cite_that_the_sky_is_blue

Either that or you are incompetent on the topic as per as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Competence_is_required#What_is_meant_by_%22Competence_is_required%22 and that case you shouldnt be editing this article.


The widely respected book Imagined Communities is really worth buying and digesting in this context. It will help you understand what these labels really are at their heart. You might find it interesting to note that a famous Arab pop song was written by an Armenian-Lebanese (Yuri Mraqqadi). Have a listen.[5] Its title means "I am an Arab". Lyrics here

Again, no need to remind me you are an Arabist. Since genetics, history and nationalism doesnt suit your arabist agenda, and the "we are all Arabs here" does, you cherry pick what you like. Go post on your Facebook Arabist pages while you still can but wikipedia is not the place for your marketing campaigns.

So with me reporting you again, how many times have you been reported for reworking pages to suit your needs? Perhaps you will be in the news again for reworking the Arab Christian page also as part of your Arabist and anti-Israel journalism. And perhaps your tag mate and meat puppet JJNito197 will become a celebrity too like you. Team tagging and meat puppetry, good for your international celebrity status?Chris O' Hare (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Chris O' Hare, I will not engage with you further until you commit to following WP:AGF and WP:NPA. And ideally apologize for the numerous attacks above.
For the record, my core political philosophy is "inclusivism". As opposed to "exclusivist" nationalism. This distinction will help correct all the offensive claims you made above. I disagree with ethnic nationalism, including aggressive ethnic Arab Nationalism, Phoenicianism and Pharonism. I am pro inclusivist identities, based on criteria available to all such as language or citizenship. In the same vein, I am pro-Israel, although I disagree with its current government's exclusivist stance and the subjugation and isolation of the Palestinians.
If you are prepared to move forward without the attacks, I suggest the key topic we discuss is the Arabized Christians vs Arab Christians distinction. I have not seen that distinction made by reputable scholars of the topic; the source you referred to was Walid Phares, who appears to have extreme views. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile:

My comments on your reply are here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Arab_Christians#The_cultural_appropriation_through_false_identity_assignations_and_%22inclusivist_non-nationalistic_philosophies%22_%28aka_the_new_name_for_Arabism%2FPan-Arabist_agenda%29_that_will_be_stopped_here_in_Wikipedia

You have also been reported https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Users_User:JJNito197_and_User:Onceinawhile_continuous_disruptive_editing_and_major_rework_of_article_Arab_Christians

Unreliable sources and failed verification

The article seems to have a problem with this. The only source I checked, this source is not reliable and does not confirm the claim that Abinader is of Arab Christian descent. (t · c) buidhe 06:54, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe:I am currently adding more sources as requested and have sourced that one that affirms abinaders christian beliefs. The majority of Arab immigrants to America were Chistian and if they were muslim prior and became chrisian, that would make them now Arab christian, see the case of Carlos Menem. Also, as these are spanish speaking figures, english content about them is scarce. For example Salvador Jorge Blanco middle name is 'Omar' which is an arab name. The reason I haven't found a source yet to address this lies in my lack of spanish knowledge, although no doubt there is an explanation for it somewhere. Addressing the tag 'This article is in list format, but may read better as prose' the reason it is done this way is because it would be convoluted in a paragraph setting. Regards JJNito197 (talk) 11:36, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
In order for someone to be called an "Arab Christian" on Wikipedia, you need a reliable source that says they're an Arab Christian. You can't deduce that from their background or having a name derived from Arabic, that would be original research. For example, I have a Swedish surname, but I am definitely not Swedish. (t · c) buidhe 12:03, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
I understand, but they are not called Arab Christian, it says they descend from Arab Christians. Its gives more context to a simple labelling of 'arab' which one could do as all these diaspora figures descend from 'arabs' regardless. JJNito197 (talk) 12:11, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge from History of Arab Christians

The History of Arab Christians has very little that isn't already in here, and has no footnotes. I propose merging. Onceinawhile (talk) 08:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

  • I support the merging proposal. Article History of Arab Christians is very short, and it would be practical to merge it with the main article, and thus concentrate editorial contributions to historical sections in Arab Christians. Sorabino (talk) 17:08, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
  • I support the merging proposal JJNito197 (talk) 22:43, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
  • This article has been nominated for Good Article status. The merger might best be productive if it happens before the review. --Whiteguru (talk) 00:49, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Support - might as well go ahead and do it.Selfstudier (talk) 00:58, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Given there was unanimous support here, and as there were no footnotes as noted in the opening proposal and thus no sourced text to merge, I have simply redirected that page to the history section here. There were some external links and Further reading books, and if they are useful, they can be seen at this revision. Given it could potentially serve as an article, and as there is an equivalent section in this article, I have tagged it as a redirect with possibilities and left the very few incoming links intact. CMD (talk) 12:08, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

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