Talk:Arab Christians/Archive 7

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Archive 1 ← Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9

What does the word "pagan" in the intro mean?

Here's the text from the intro of this article:

"...the Ghassanids, who adopted Monophosyte Christianity, formed one of the most powerful Arab confederations allied to Christian Byzantium. being a buffer against the pagan tribes of Arabia."

And here's the Wikipedia definition of the word "paganism":

"Paganism is a blanket term, typically used to refer to non-Abrahamic, indigenous polytheistic religious traditions."

I would really like to know which indigenous religion (or religions) is being discussed there... does anyone know, so we can add it to the article? Obhave (talk) 15:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

It is usually considered that the Arab peninsula tribes were prcaticing various polytheistic tribal faiths prior to the arrival of the Abrahamic religions. At first, there were some marginal conversions to Judaism (see also Arab Jews), while Ghassanids were an example for conversion to Christianity. Paganism in the Arabian peninsula included warship of the moon, the sun, and the ancestors. Probably it resembled ancient Semitic religions of the Near East, as we see some parallels to the early Israelite faith, as well as Eblaite and Sinaitic practices. I don't know whether a serious research could be made on this subject since writing existed only in the Southern part of Arabia, prior to the expansion of modern Arabic by the Nabateans.Greyshark09 (talk) 23:06, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

POV in Christians in Palestinian territories section

This section, which is only supposed to be a summary about Arab Christians in the territories, is clearly and highly POV for several reasons. I tried a bit of cleaning up yesterday, but was promptly reverted. A list of my concerns:

  • The section basically says that even though there are some high-ranking Christian leaders, Palestinian Christians suffer dearly from extremist Muslim abuse. This picture is illustrated by the listing of incidents supported by surely unreliable sources, namely the Israeli ambassador to the US Michael Oren (whose paid for PR and, relevant to this subject, was the center of a controversy recently when he tried to halt the airing of 60 minutes program about the exodus of Palestinian Christians as a result of the Israeli occupation [1]) and the highly unreliable and biased Christian Broadcasting Network. In particular, the CBN makes outlandish statements that Hamas has attacked churches, Christian homes, graves (even burning the corpses) based on an interview with a disaffected Gazan Christian. Haven't seen any of this in the mainstream media including the mainstream Israeli media. Even if the sources are reliable (such as The Guardian and Haaretz) all we have here is a listing of incidents against Christians (banning Christmas decorations and the killing of a Christian whose bookstore was burnt down and so on).
  • Meanwhile, there is zilch on the systematic abuses or negative consequences of the Israeli occupation, such as the numerous movement restrictions, the blockade on Gaza, the West Bank barrier which encircles Bethlehem/Beit Jala/Beit Sahour, crippling their economies. These, as most people educated on the subject know, are the principal sources of Christian suffering in the territories. Countless reliable sources could be brought to demonstrate that the absence of economic opportunity, the extreme difficulty of accessing the Jerusalem market and gaining building permits, the lower standard of living and the security situation are the causes of the Palestinian Christian exodus.

This section is unique in its POV compared with the rest and hopefully editors here could see that. I am leaning on removing these various incidents as well as those examples of Palestinian leaders and adding more neutral, summarising and relevant information. My revision to the section would be this:

Between 50,000-90,000 Christians live in the Palestinian territories, most of whom belong to the Orthodox and Catholic churches.[Reuters (new ref)] The majority live in the West Bank, mostly in the Bethlehem, Ramallah and Nablus areas. In 2007, there were 3,200 Christians living in the Gaza Strip.[29] Many Palestinian Arab Christians hold high-ranking positions in Palestinian society, particularly at the political and social levels. Israeli historian Benny Morris writes that Christian-Muslim relations constitute a divisive element in Palestinian society.[30] In recent years, Palestinian Christians have been emigrating from the West Bank in large numbers as a result of measures imposed by the Israeli occupation since the Second Intifada, including the West Bank barrier and movement and building permit restrictions.[reliable source(s)] There have also been been cases of persecution by radical Islamist elements, particularly in the Gaza Strip.[reliable source(s)]

Also, a brief history of Arab Christians in Palestine from the Christian era would be added eventually as well as statistics about the percentage change in population. Would appreciate a prompt reply so we can move forward. If not I'll assume my proposal is fine and will go ahead and make the changes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 21:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Made the changes with some alterations. The alteration basically was an entire passage (instead of two sentences) about the main, systemic reasons for the Palestinian Christian exodus with Palestinian, Israeli and outside views all present. --Al Ameer son (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
If i remember correctly, Michael Oren is a certified academic and historian, what is the problem with him? POV is not a problem as long as there is reliability.Greyshark09 (talk) 19:20, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Strong POV

The current article is in very bad shape and could stand as a symbol for the very worst problems with Wikipedia. In an article on Arab Christians, the two largest Christian churches are excluded. Knowing a bit of the history of the region, I can imagine that the reason is that some nationalist decided that Copts and Marionites aren't really Arabs. That is original research in the extreme. Some very simply facts of the situation: 1. Virtually all sources on Arab Christians include the Copts and the Maronites. 2. While one could make a strong argument that both Copts and Maronites aren't descendants of Arabs, the same goes for almost the whole population of Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. If Wikipedia applied the same standards as those used in this article throughout, we would have to change every article on Arabs. In short: this article is both in conflict with most sources on the matter and in conflict with how Wikipedia deals with the term "Arab" in other articles.Jeppiz (talk) 17:24, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

It seems you missed that there is a big section on Copts, Maronites and Assyrians under title "Question of identity". I moved it up the article for more readability in relevance to Arab Christians proper (including Melchites).Greyshark09 (talk) 18:25, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, it seems I lost a sentence in my first post; I'm thinking about the infobox with the numbers, which doesn't include Copts and Maronites (nor Assyrians). I'd say that Copts and Maronites definitely need to be included. Their language is Arabic, and that's the criteria used to define an Arab in virtually all Wikipedia articles. Stating in the text that many of them don't identify as Arabs, and discuss this situation, is excellent. In the infoxbox, though, I move we define Arab in the same way as elsewhere in Wikipedia articles. Right now, the infobox suggests there is an ethnic different between a Lebanese Maronite and a Lebanese Orthodox, or between and Egyptian Copt and an Egyptian Catholic. Of course there is no such difference, the Lebanese and the Lebanese Orthodox speak the same language and have the same ancestors. The infobox cannot use a different definition of Arab than other infoboxes and articles.Jeppiz (talk) 21:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Those two communities have a complex identity that is only partially Arab, unlike Greek Catholic and Orthodox Christians who largely embraced Arab identity, Maronites and Copts are somehow divided in this issue. Let's not forget the Lebanese civil War was fought by Maronites who wished to retain a distinct identity for their country, their defeat was implicitly announced in the Taif Agreement that emphasised the "Arabness" of Lebanon.--Rafy talk 22:11, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
Both communities (Copts and Maronites) should be mentioned in the infobox with an asterisk clarifying that not all Maronites and Copts identify as Arab or some other wording along those lines. Politics should be largely left out of the equation when it comes to the infobox and stats should be presented as neutrally as possible. --Al Ameer son (talk) 22:50, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
This is one reason they are not in the infobox, another reason is that they have a separate page, so one can check thir numbers there (unlike Latin, Catholic-Melchite and Orthodox Arab Christians); if Copts and Maronites are included in this infobox it can be considered a strong pan-Arab POV (some Maronites and Copts protested this in the past).Greyshark09 (talk) 06:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree with the suggestions Al Ameer son makes above, and I must disagree with both claims Greyshark09 makes. The fact that a certain population has an article about it never stops it from being presented in other infoboxes. There is a page on Catalans, but that doesn't mean they are not counted in an infobox about the population of Spain, to take but one example. I disagree just as much with the other point. Including all Arab-speaking Christians in an infobox on Arab Christians is certainly not "a strong pan-Arav POV"; it is a neutral decision in line with both the available sources and with common Wikipedia practices. It is the current version, in which sources are ignored and we use a completely different interpretation of "Arab" than in other Wikipedia articles that a strong POV is present. Along with rather strong original research, at that. Articles on Wikipedia should be consistent, and this article is not.Jeppiz (talk) 09:57, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
This article is certainly not consistent with the Ba'ath party propaganda.Greyshark09 (talk) 16:21, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Instead of commenting on factual arguments, you resort to cheap comments. Good to know where you stand and what kind of user you are.Jeppiz (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Most specialised academical references do question the "Arabness" of the Maronite and Copts. Most, if not all don't hesitate into putting them in different categories than other Christian groups that are emphatic about their allegiance to Arab Nationalism. Here are some useful references: Pop Culture Arab World!: Media, Arts, and Lifestyle, Language, Memory, and Identity in the Middle East: The Case for Lebanon, Language, Religion And National Identity in Europe And the Middle East:A Historical Study...--Rafy talk 17:34, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
Thank you. And yes, I agree that most Maronites I know (I know very few Copts) are much reluctant to call themselves Arabs than both Melkites and Greek Orthodox. Still, this article is not for any particular group to decide on, and most people who come here come for the same reason I came: to check the number of Arab Christians. They are not interested in these distinctions, nor are they aware of them. They will leave the article thinking that there are several million Christians less in the Middle East than there are. Another problem, as I already stated, is that the article contradicts several other Wikipedia articles in its current form. Here are the different solutions I would suggest:
1. We change the infobox to include Maronites and Copts, add footnotes that many of them don't consider themselves Arabs and of course discuss it in the article. Those who come to just check on the number of Christians in different Middle Eastern countries will find the correct numbers, those who are interested in the divisions will read the article and also find what they are looking for.
2. We change the title of the article. Lots of different options, but "Arab-speaking Christians" or "Christians in the Middle East" seem like two obvious candidates.
What we should not to is to leave the article in its current format, which is quite clearly POV as the infobox only represent the view that Maronites and Copts aren't Arabs, as it contradicts several academic works on the subject and as it contradicts several other Wikipedia articles.Jeppiz (talk) 21:01, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
There is an article on Christianity in the Middle East, including all the groups of Christian faith; while this article was agreed to be named "Arab Christians" by a great majority of users to reduce confusion - "Arabic-speaking Christians" are all the multi-ethnic Christians in the world who matter to speak Arabic, whether as mother tongue or via a university. This article aims to describe Arab Christians proper. Actually, there is even a user who claims that Orthodox Christians of Lebanon are an "ethnoreligious" group themselves (see [2]), but that is too radical.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:39, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Good points, thank you. The problem is, who defines who is "Arab proper". I certainly don't want to impose the label on anyone, but I'm anxious that the article is as helpful as possible for readers with little knowledge, and it respects sources. Had I not known that there are Maronites and Copts, I would have left this article thinking there are 300.000 Christians in Egypt. A further problem is that the article contradicts itself. It has an infobox claiming 300.000 Arabic Christians in Egypt and a map claiming 8.5 million Arab Christians in Egypt. Same problem for Lebanon.Jeppiz (talk) 21:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

I basically don't mind adding them given a proper disclaimer is provided in the infobox.--Rafy talk 23:58, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
I'm aware of the map issue, but this map is not a good source - i guess a better one should be presented; if a person thinks that Arab League is populated only by Arabs, that is a much deeper problem of understanding the Middle East, than this article can solve. In any case, i would agree to add Maronites and Copts to infobox if we keep some kind of distinction (for example "Egypt: 300,000 (also 8,200,000 Copts)"; "Lebanon: 300,000 (also 1.1 million Maronites)".Greyshark09 (talk) 06:04, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
I think Greyshark's proposal works fine until we get some credible stats on the percentages of Copts and Maronites that identify as Arab or non-Arab, whenever that day comes. --Al Ameer son (talk) 07:28, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
I agree with you all, adding Maronites and Copts to the infobox but adding disclaimer is probably the best. I certainly don't want to push any identification on any group, just make sure that the average reader who takes a quick look doesn't leave thinking that the number of Arabic-speaking Christians is less than 50% of what it actually is.Jeppiz (talk) 17:19, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
  •  Done per discussion above.Greyshark09 (talk) 11:25, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

What happened to Philip and John of Damacus?

What happened to Philip the Arab and John of Damascus? They were very influential Arabs of the Christian faith.PacificWarrior101 (talk) 03:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Do you mean in the infobox collage? The former's Arab identity is disputed, but the latter is Arab. His portrait is found later in the article. --Al Ameer son (talk) 03:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

That's is true, I just had a discussion about Philip the Arab on the Arabs article. 76.193.178.126 (talk) 20:22, 20 January 2013 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Role in Al Nahda

I found that the content given under role in Al Nahda is impossible to read as it is written by someone who just translated it from Arabic using some software that has not given the correct translation. In order to adhere to wikipedia standards and for readability, this content should be translated properly for the sake of the readers. Rejoice talk 09:40, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, i tried to improve it, but it still is unreadable.Greyshark09 (talk) 10:17, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
It is still more or less unintelligible. Enkyklios (talk) 08:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Numbers

The number of Christians in Syria and Jordan in the Sidebar is at variance with the numbers in the text which are more reliable. There are more than 350-700,000 Christians in Syria -- more like 10--12% of the population. The figure of 200,000 was given in the second paragraph and is at variance with the estimates in the Sidebar on the right and the section on Syria. The same is true for Jordan. A figure of 100,00 was given,but in the section on this country the number is 4000,000 which is closer to the facts. The demographics need improvement to say the least.Alexander Domanda (talk) 22:39, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

See above discussion - editors and readers tend to confuse "Christians" in Arab countries (some of whom are Arabs) with "Arab Christians". In Syria, the biggest group of Christians is in fact Assyrians (and Maronites), who are not Arabs per general definition. Same is true in Jordan. Arab Christians are a separate group from Syriacs and Maronites, with different history and distinctive communities.GreyShark (dibra) 20:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Infobox

Just of a note people, I might be changing the infobox to make it resemble to one on the Arabs article, and try to include a couple ancient and medieval Arab Christians, and Arab Christians from each nation. Isaac of Nineveh can fit both an ancient Arab Christian and representative of Bahrain. PacificWarrior101 (talk) 15:15, 1 June 2014 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Why are Copts and Maronites excluded?

Why are Copts and Maronites excluded?PacificWarrior101 (talk) 15:28, 21 December 2012 (UTC)PacificWarrior101

Many do not identify as Arab ("Arab" is more of an identity/language-based pan-ethnicity), but some do and all speak Arabic. Therefore, they are included in the article, albeit with a clarification that not all identify as Arab. See the above discussion for more information on the matter. --Al Ameer son (talk) 16:52, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Copts and Maronites are native to Egypt and Lebanon respectively, therefore they should be included in the populations of their native countries as part of the overall populations. Your numbers make it appear as if there are only thousands of Christians in Egypt and not up to 11 million!!! Retitle the article as 'Middle Eastern Christians' if it only refers to populations that are genetically arab. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.182.160.203 (talk) 22:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Arab Christians are not the same as Middle Eastern Christians, because Middle East is not only Arab (just to remind you - Turks, Kurds, Iranians, Cypriots...).GreyShark (dibra) 21:31, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Sure, but Copts and Maronites are Arabic speakers. When one refers more broadly to Egyptians and Lebanese as "Arabs" one is generally not making an ethnic judgement but a linguistic. In other words, Copts and Maronites are no more or less "Arab" than the majority of the population of Egypt and Lebanon.
However, there is one complexity here - nationalism. See Pharaonism and Phoenicianism. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:40, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
The currently presented solution to show Copts and Maronites in the infobox, but with separate statistics, and explain about each case in the body of the article is the best so far.GreyShark (dibra) 15:13, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Christians in Lebanon

The article says "It is known that Christians made up between 65%-85%[44] of Lebanon's population before the Lebanese Civil War, if not more", giving this article as the source; reading the supposed source I can't find nothing to support these numbers (but the source article is long and I can have not noticed some details); if anything, the source article says that the census 1932 counted litle more that half of the population as Christian. And I find much dubiois that before the civil war the christians in Lebanon could be "85% (...) if not more" (a civil war where one of the sides - who also, afaik, controled the national army - had more than 85% of the population should ended very quick)--MiguelMadeira (talk) 10:35, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

First of all, i don't see how relevant it is to talk about Lebanese Christians here, because the topic is Arab Christians (Lebanon has several Christian denominations, only some of them are Arab, majority of Maronites with disputed Arab identity and also other ethnic groups such as Armenians and Assyrians). This section should belong to Christianity in the Middle East.GreyShark (dibra) 13:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
This passage was added by an IP at 4 December 2010, without sources. The "source" only was added, again by an IP, at 22 September 2012. If there is not objections in the next days (or unless someone points to soma passage in the alleged "source" confirming these numbers), I will remove the passage--MiguelMadeira (talk) 13:29, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Infobox and definition

New article editors are kindly advised to read the above consensus prior to editing the infobox and the definition of "Arab Christians". The community has decided certain guidelines for this page, and if there are minority opinions who would like to challenge it - please make a proper suggestion. So far it is decided that Maronites, Chaldo-Assyrians and Copts are excluded from infobox, as their Arab identity is a matter of controversy. Further definition of Arab Christians is mostly ethno-religious, though we do mention the cultural association as well (in case of Copts, Maronites and Assyrians). See above conversations for more.GreyShark (dibra) 17:45, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Merger

Following the previous failed proposal to merge Arab Orthodox -> Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch, it seems to me that first of all Arab Orthodox article is completely redundant, with the only piece of valuable text dealing with Arab Christian attempt in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate to gain clergy status in Orthodox Churches (which are packed with ethnic Greeks), and secondly that this content should probably belong to Arab Christians article. Some information about the definition of "Rum Christians" can also go to disputed identity section in Arab Christians article.GreyShark (dibra) 17:16, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Support per nomination. Ariel ✡ 18:55, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - merged (though there was very little to merge). Done However, the Arab Orthodox redirect is now pointing to the Arab Orthodox Society.GreyShark (dibra) 19:38, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

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Morocco and Algiers

Someone added Morocco and Algiers numbers of "converts". I would like some more profound sources on this please.GreyShark (dibra) 13:05, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Removed with no objections. Done

Infobox

Why are we excluding Maronites from the total number of Christians in the infobox? --Makeandtoss (talk) 20:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Because many (and perhaps most) Maronites reject Arab identity and in fact have a strong case for this, descending from pre-Arab population of the Levant. See discussions this and this discussions. GreyShark (dibra) 20:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Right. In any case, the current status of the article is seriously bad. --Makeandtoss (talk) 21:22, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
How so? Please clarify which aspects of the article you perceive to be 'seriously bad' and how these content problems should be addressed. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
The article has an enormous lead, large chunks of unsourced content and grammar mistakes. --Makeandtoss (talk) 23:19, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
That only makes it fairly much consistent with thousands of other Wikipedia articles. The point of the project is to actually involve oneself in improving articles by copy editing, finding reliable sources, and adding citations in order to improve the content rather than making generalised complaints about the state of the article... but you already have enough experience to be aware of that. You're more than welcome to help out. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Here's a tiny example [3]. I don't know if there are more as I haven't completely read the article, but the number of "citation needed" templates is overwhelming. --Makeandtoss (talk) 23:39, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, I've conceded that the article could do with improvement. Again, however, it's actually in a better state of repair than thousands of other articles. What concerns me is that you started by asking questions (including one which you overwrote here) that you could have answered yourself by reading through the talk page archives and some knowledge of the subject before you posed them. As also noted, doing some research in order to WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM would be welcome. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:11, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Iryna, the article has become a reasonable Wikipedia page from being a political propaganda essay by some radical nationalist elements (from several sides).GreyShark (dibra) 13:16, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Genetic analysis or cultural association?

This article was unhelpful and inconsistent, and the talk page shows why this is so.

The genetic analysis looked promising, but it was poorly written and cited few articles. Not sure whether is due to the sparsity of data or lack of care in synthesizing this.

But it really comes down to, who is an Arab? Is it really necessary to slice and dice peoples' DNA to figure out that although their ethnic group lived in Arab countries and spoke Arabic for centuries, they might not be Arabs? If a group lives in Lebanon, and is Christian, and speaks Arabic, and shares about as much of whatever allele as the Muslim population, but some subset of it doesn't like to think of itself as Arab, for political reasons especially, who are they trying to fool?

Come up with objective criteria for who is an Arab, and stick with it. Then divide it up by religion. If there are multiple scholarly views on this, then acknowledge that, but go with the currently predominant view. This article needs some heavy-handed administration.

Bsfreer7 (talk) 00:28, 8 October 2014 (UTC)Bsfreer7

"Arab" is an ethnicity and has nothing whatsoever to do with biology. An "arab" is anyone who natively speaks arabic or is from the Arabian peninsula. ParkH.Davis (talk) 01:51, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
I speak Arabic. I've never considered myself an Arab... Pure nonsense.GreyShark (dibra) 17:38, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Statistics for Jordan

The source brought by Makeandtoss claims 239k Christians in Jordan, without specifying their ethnic affiliation. This is clearly misrepresents all Jordanian Christians (Arab, Maronite, Assyrian, Armenian) as Arab Christians, which is a problematic POV we have tried to avoid. I suggest to go back to the previously used source.GreyShark (dibra) 13:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

" وهم ينتمون إلى الكنائس التالية: الروم (52.52% من مجموع المسيحيين) أي ما يوازي 120753 فرداً، اللاتين (28.93%) 69136 فرداً، الكاثوليك (12.83%) 30657 فرداً، كنائس أخرى (7.72%) 18457 فرداً."
Translation "They belong to the following churches: Greek Orthodox (52.52% of total Christians, 120,753 persons), Latin (28.93%, 69,136 persons), Roman Catholic (12.83%, 30,657 persons), other churches (7.72%, 18457).
Barely any Maronites in Jordan. Armenians number around 5,000 and Assyrians somewhere close to that figure. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:46, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
OK, so we can say that by mainstream definition, there are 121k+69k+31k (221 thousand) Arab Christians in Jordan. Other churches mostly do not belong to the count of Arab Christians, but rather representing non-Arab Armeanians, Assyrians and likely Maronites (for whom we have a separate source - 1,000 approximately).GreyShark (dibra) 14:06, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Why aren't Armenians/Assyrians separated from the other countries statistics? --Makeandtoss (talk) 14:29, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Of course they are and if not, then they should be, because they are not Arab Christians. Speaking Arabic doesn't make one an Arab Christian. Ethnic origin or cultural self-identification (some Maronites, some Copts, most Melkites and Rum Christians) is required.GreyShark (dibra) 11:08, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes but for example, the followers of Armenian church aren't necessarily ethincally 100% Armenian, or even Armenian at all. --Makeandtoss (talk) 11:20, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
You are correct, many Mid-East Christians tend to intermarry with no respect to their Church affiliation (especially in Lebanon, Palestine, Israel and maybe Jordan and Syria), but still this is a fair estimate for the ethnic composition. Assyrians tend to belong to Assyrian and Chaldean Churches, Maronites to the Maronite Church, ethnic Arab Christians to Greek Orthodox of Jerusalem, arabized Greeks/Anatolians to Melkite and Greek Orthodox of Antioch, Armenians to Armenian Church and Copts to Coptic churches.GreyShark (dibra) 11:55, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
So in the infobox for Jordan, should we specify the numbers of each non-Arab church? Or is "18,457 belonging to other churches" sufficient? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
It has been previously agreed that we shouldn't mention non-Arab Christians at all. There is an article on Christianity in the Middle East for that purpose. However, some editors asked to mention Maronites and Copts under separate count within the infobox, since those communities are somewhat affiliated with the Arab culture (are Arabized Christians in some way). As for Jordan, we therefore mention 1,000 Maronites within the country; i'm not aware of any Copt community members though.GreyShark (dibra) 07:18, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Armenians and Assyrians in Jordan are also Arabized. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:12, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Arabic-speaking doesn't mean they self-identify as Arab. It has been agreed here that most sources do not consider Armenians and Assyrians as Arab Christians (see this). Maronites and Copts are more affiliated with Arab identity (see this and this discussions), though not entirely.GreyShark (dibra) 17:53, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Numbers of Iraqi and Syrian Christians should be added to the 221,000 figure? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:34, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
You mean Iraqi and Syrian refugees in Jordan?GreyShark (dibra) 17:53, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Not necessarily refugees, but yes. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:08, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
We typically do not count expatriates in those kind of tables, unless having some status in the host country. The Syrian War complicates things, but for now i don't know any updated information of how many remain in Syria and how many fled abroad. Same with Iraq, though the number of Iraqi Arab Christians is negligible.GreyShark (dibra) 05:42, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Copts

The edits I undid on Copts were made by User:Masalama1111 who has been warned previously for his edits-2601:546:8103:290:44EC:F9B:A7C7:FD2C (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

That is neither a constructive, nor an appropriate rationale for battleground editing behaviour. You've also been 'warned' for disruptive editing via multiple accounts. If you have reliable sources for contesting the veracity of content, bring it to the talk page and table it here for discussion. Also, please read the policies I've linked to. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
None of the policies you linked to were remotely relevant. I removed information without citation. Please learn what disruptive editing is-2601:546:8103:290:44EC:F9B:A7C7:FD2C (talk) 10:16, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
One citation for the Christian population alone is availabe here. Look at the statistics for Lebanon + do your maths for this source. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:23, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
It should all be grouped as one for Arab Christians then. That is the only fair way to go about it-2601:546:8103:290:44EC:F9B:A7C7:FD2C (talk) 10:25, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I agree, Copts speak Arabic as their first language and are Arabs with the modern term 41.254.5.174 (talk) 10:30, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I speak Arabic. I'm not an Arab.GreyShark (dibra) 13:32, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
@Grewshark09, do you speak it as your first language and use it in most of your daily life? were you born in an Arab country and follow the habits of Arabs? if so You are an Arab with the modern term which refers to a cultural group rather than an ethnicity 41.254.7.7 (talk) 05:43, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
You are a biased user and using activism to push uncited content. BBC>you.-LebanonisArab (talk) 01:07, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Not my first language, but as a native speaker of several Semitic languages it is very "close". I certainly do not follow the "habits of the Arabs", which is one of the things which makes me non-Arab; this is exactly my point - Arabic-speaking and native Arabic-speaking is not the sole definition of Arabness.GreyShark (dibra) 06:00, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Well, my point is You can't really tell a copt from other Egyptians they act the same and speak the same language and many of them consider themselves Arab. I'm not just going with them speaking Arabic. 41.254.7.7 (talk) 06:11, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

This is wrong. Copts are genetically distinct from other Egyptians. Copts lack Arab admixture. Copts are not Arab by definition. They aren't Arab. Also, they do not act the same. Please see links below.


"The North African/Middle Eastern genetic component is identified especially in Copts. Copts lack the influence found in Egyptians from Qatar, an Arabic population. It may suggest that Copts have a genetic composition that could resemble the ancestral Egyptian population, without the present strong Arab influence."

http://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996


"One estimate in the 1970s stated that some 80% of all pharmacists and 30–40% of all doctors in Egypt were Copt (Chitham 82–86)" https://books.google.com/books?id=-d6PAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Copts+30-40%26+doctors&source=bl&ots=x0LBmUYHUo&sig=LmBHel1mlBHrKLhX90TP7qTgPyI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6uJLPgurOAhVEJx4KHe5GBAcQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Copts%2030-40%26%20doctors&f=false


"On this measure the most elite group in the USA, far eclipsing the Ashkenazi Jewish population, are Copts and Hindu Indians, with sixteen times as many doctors per capita in the USA than the average of the domestic population. " http://www.iga.ucdavis.edu/Research/All-UC/conferences/huntington-2013/clark-paper

https://books.google.com/books?id=iqnKBwAAQBAJ&pg=PT30&lpg=PT30&dq=In+short,+the+geographical+and+ocuupational+profie+of+Egypt's+Christian+minority+has+not+changed&source=bl&ots=O8zSNQozk5&sig=RRTtnxaKq3plfVhoQmJtR2w_kks&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2os_Ag-rOAhUCrB4KHaztCq0Q6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=In%20short%2C%20the%20geographical%20and%20ocuupational%20profie%20of%20Egypt's%20Christian%20minority%20has%20not%20changed&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masalama1111 (talk • contribs) 20:59, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

This is already described in the article.GreyShark (dibra) 20:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Why is sourced material consistently being removed?
The "Maronites aren't Arabs" is a fringe opinion with virtually no support outside some activists on the internet. The BBC estimates there are about 1.5 million Christians in Lebanon including Maronites. Do not remove sources. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-15239529-2601:546:8103:290:13E:DF48:57E2:696B (talk) 04:21, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Same editor as in above section as well as LebanonisArab. Making this a subsection of abuse discussion. Reason you're being reverted is because there's no consensus for the edits and you're using multiple IPs and accounts to edit war on the article. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:30, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes I lost my password thank you for stating the obvious. Why is it only edit warring when I do it? Why is sourced material being removed in favor of non sourced? -2601:546:8103:290:13E:DF48:57E2:696B (talk) 04:33, 15 August 2016 (UTC) (LebanonisArab not logged in)

There is a statement in the article that I believe needs a citation that directly supports it:

However, both Maronites and Copts had gradually lost their linguistic differentiation during the Ottoman period in favor of the Arabic language, given the cultural and political dominance which Arabic enjoyed, and therefore they are considered Arab Christians, even if not technically Arab Christians in an ethnic sense.

The statement was restored by an editor,[4] who said in his/her edit summary that "Citation provided on talk page: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-15239529." I was going to add the link to the BBC article, but I could not see how the article supported the statement. Maybe it is the wrong link.-- Toddy1 (talk) 16:20, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, the BBC article talks about Lebanese Christians (all Christians in Lebanon), not about Arab Christians specifically.GreyShark (dibra) 20:57, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

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Israel

"this is one of the biggest Arab Christian communities in the world.", this statement is not sourced. While this statement is controversial "It is also one of the few Christian communities in the Middle East, which experiences a net population growth" as seen here [5] [6]. --Makeandtoss (talk) 09:32, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand how BBC and Haaretz are disproving that Israeli Arab Christian community is growing?GreyShark (dibra) 08:31, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
BBC "Issues: Discrimination against Arab minority; declining numbers". --Makeandtoss (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Have you only read the headline? Your conclusion is WP:SYNTH. Try reading the actual section of that article on Israel. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 10:21, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Huh?? My conclusion? I am quoting. I don't find anything in text contradicting the headline. --Makeandtoss (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
I'm reading BBC and it says nothing concerning your claim. On the contrary. H'aretz is talking about decline of Palestinian Christian community, which is a well known fact, but unrelated.GreyShark (dibra) 17:03, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
What the hell? I said I am quoting, what do you mean my "claim"??? Do you need a larger red box?. Makeandtoss (talk) 23:11, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
How does the 2011 BBC article negate this 2013 article? You're busy pointing to a bullet point précis of historical concerns of the Christian population, but ignoring "The remaining Christians include increasing numbers of immigrants from around the world." --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:57, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
Ah, I see your point, Makeandtoss. Apologies, but I was distracted by the shenanigans below regarding Lebanese Christians. In the context of the Israel section, the growth is the by-product of other groups of immigration from around the world, not specifically applied to the Israeli Arab Christian community as is stated in the section. The problem is that, while they've named a few groups of migrants suggesting that they are non-Arabic by where they're emigrating from, it isn't actually clear as to whether or not these migrants are of Arabic descent. The article's wording is vague enough not to be able to ascertain their ethnicity one way or the other. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:28, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
The count of Israeli Arab Christians in constantly growing - i've checked official numbers several times in this regard, regardless of non-Arab Christians immigrants (married to either Jews or Arabs). The above sources do not state otherwise.GreyShark (dibra) 05:47, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
I added another source to the article, so we can see the numbers and growth:
2009 - 122,000 Arab Christians out of 151,700 (i.e. 80.4%)
2012 - (126,400) Arab Christians out of 158,000, meaning 80% [7]
2014/2015 - (131,300) Arab Christians out of 166,000, meaning 79.1% [8]
The trend is quiet clear from those numbers, so "growing Arab Christian population" is certainly a reasonable statement.GreyShark (dibra) 06:34, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Thats kind of original research. Plus I am stressing on the "one of the few Middle Eastern countries" part. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:12, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Original research has nothing to do with that, since those numbers are sourced. In addition, we are discussing the cited citation - whether it is true or false. You are claiming that "Israel is one of the few Middle Eastern countries with growing Christian population" is a minority view / mistake, while i'm showing you that by sourced numbers it seems the statement is very much correct - concerning both general Christian population and specifically Arab Christians. Unless you can bring an opposite opinion or show different numbers from reliable sources, you have no case to remove it.GreyShark (dibra) 13:31, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
By sourced numbers, you are only showing me that its growing, not that it is the one of the few in the region growing. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:37, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
The cited source says "Israel has one of the few Christian communities left in the Middle East that is still growing." Algemeiner 2013. This is the source, not numbers in this thread, which were brought by me to check the statement.GreyShark (dibra) 20:55, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Its an extraordinary claim. The Jerusalem Post is not quite reliable as it is right-wing oriented, but it is quoting the statistics department, so I don't know. What I do know is that there are contradicting sources on a rather sensitive issue. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:05, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Jerusalem Post is a reliable source - it has an editorial board and clearly passes WP:RS guidelines. Reliable sources can be POV, as long as they are verifiable, and we can utilize them, while other opinions from other WP:RS sources are brought to balance. You should bring proper sources to balance this claim if you can find one. Dismissing WP:RS sources without proper reasoning is simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT.GreyShark (dibra) 21:26, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
As I said, its an extraordinary claim and the Jerusalem post alone is not an extraordinary sourcing, specifically with contradicting sources. The BBC source and this source saying that this community (Arab Christians) is declining in Israel, let alone it being the only community growing in the region. Numbers from 2009, 2012, 2014 don't mean anything, Israel has been existing for 68 years. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:18, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
You are simply misleading - there is nothing in BBC to say so. The thesis is very confusing - speaking of Palestinian Christians and Israeli Christians in one sentence, while we all know Palestinian Christian society is collapsing. Your claim is therefore fringe and not supported by sources.GreyShark (dibra) 06:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but wtf? ?? Makeandtoss (talk) 09:17, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
OK, i see what you mean. You can add that BBC said "declining numbers" in 2011, while Jerusalem Post said it is "growing" as of 2014 - both are reliable sources, even though contradicting. Your other source (thesis) is very confusing - mixing Israeli and Palestinian figures and often calling Israeli Christians as Palestinians and Palestinian Christians as living in Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 10:01, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Let me reemphasize that I am emphasizing on "one of the few". Makeandtoss (talk) 10:07, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Wdym?GreyShark (dibra) 10:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Arab Israeli Christians growing in number is met with contradicting sources, "one of the few Christian communities in the Middle East growing" is a whole different story. We are not sure if the community is even growing, and we say its the one of the few communities growing?! Its an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary sourcing. WP:EXTRAORDINARY Makeandtoss (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Frankly, my friend, "one of the few" is quite an ambiguous language, so we can simply delete this, even though it doesn't have anything with WP:extraordinary. Regarding growth or reduction - i'm convinced by you that BBC indeed said that numbers are reducing in 2011, so we can input the claim as suggested above, even though it doesn't make much sense. I'm thinking perhaps to add a an Israeli CBS-based table on Arab Christian numbers in Israel, so readers would be able to draw conclusions by themselves.GreyShark (dibra) 15:10, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
Sounds too detailed for this article. Numbers increased in these bla bla bla years, numbers decreased in these bla bla bla years, isn't really a net growth. You can't draw conclusions from numbers, we need a source explicitly saying its growing. But seriously, I am really not into if its growing, I am more into "one of the few" part as it is completely baseless. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:38, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

this might help resolve the issue:

Outside of the Gulf States with over a million mainly Asian Christians laborers, Israel is the only place in the Middle East where the Christians are growing in number. They are excelling in education, doing well in business and feeling relatively safe from their radical tormentors.

There's also some more information about the treatment of Arab Christians in Israel in that piece that might be relevant to this article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

That quote talks about Christians generally not Arab Christians, not helpful. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:25, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
Agree with Makeandtoss - not specific about Arab Christians and does not contain much information.GreyShark (dibra) 07:03, 4 September 2016 (UTC)
The issue remains.. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:05, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

"Arabized Christians"

to this reader, the phrase "Arabized Christians" is so unclear that it would require a definition if not an article in itself explaining how someone who gets "Arabized". The phrase (is it original research or synthesis?) should be strong enough to distinguish between "adopting Arabic as their language" and "losing their original ethnic identity and becoming Arabs". --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

See Arabization. Speaking Arabic is not "Arabization" in the full meaning of this word. I do speak Arabic, but in no way consider myself Arabized or being part of the Arab nation / identity.GreyShark (dibra) 08:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Genetic Evidence

This article is written under a poor scientific basis. Genetic evidence shows there are no Arab gene flow into Lebanon and Western Syria. Christian Palestinians may have an Arab origin, partially so.

Most Arabic-speaking Christians in the Levant are natives or of Anatolian Armenia, Georgian, or Greek descent. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 06:50, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

There is no such thing as the Arab gene, the European gene, there are geographic genes. Levantines both Muslim and Christian alike.--Sarah Canbel (talk) 08:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

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por que não tem englobado os da diaspora são o mesmo povo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.154.71.235 (talk) 09:01, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Infobox picture

I think the picture in the infobox is unrepresentative of most Arab Christians, concerning the headscarf. Open to suggestions.Makeandtoss (talk) 12:42, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Khalil Gibran

Well, clearly Khalil was a Lebanese Maronite, and this is not a typical Arab Christian, but rather one of the disputed cases. Maronites are Arabized Christians and are divided in their view of Arab identity - some rejecting, while others adopting. Should we use an image of a Maronite here hence?GreyShark (dibra) 10:57, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

 DoneGreyShark (dibra) 19:40, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Unrelated content

From this paragraph

Christians in Iraq are one of the world's oldest continuous communities in the world, and after Palestine/Israel, Iraq is the location of the most biblical history than any other country in the world.

To this paragraph

Syriac Christianity would eventually become the most popular branch of Christianity in Iraq (to the present day) and one of the largest in the greater Fertile Crescent region (Mesopotamia and the Levant) as a whole

Is totally unrelated to the article subject. It could be in Christianity in Iraq which the IP seems to have added it and no problem so far.--SharabSalam (talk) 06:59, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Notably, there are barely Arab Christians in Iraq. Assyro-Chaldeans are not Arabs per mainstream view, so this is largely irrelevant.GreyShark (dibra) 19:41, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

10,000 Christians in Iraq?

Where did you get that number? The source given contains completely different figures. --Ora Unu (talk) 14:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

I have added {{Failed verification}} tag to it. Do you have reliable sources that says how many Arab Christians in Iraq? the source doesnt say how many Arab christians in there.--SharabSalam (talk) 15:28, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
This is tricky - several years ago we decided to check how many Iraqi Christians affiliate with the Greek Orthodox Church in Iraq, which is an indirect indication for Arab Christians, but not a certain affiliation.GreyShark (dibra) 19:42, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
Well, the main problem is that most Christians in Iraq aren't considered as Arabs, but Assyrians and most sources don't show a difference. I can search for other sources, but I don't await better results. Otherwise we could change the number to "several thousands".--Ora Unu (talk) 15:08, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Note B

Why is there a note b, if there's nothing inside of it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Victionarier (talk • contribs) 23:13, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Fixed.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 23:31, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Maronites and Arab lineage

This article is totally oriented and have clear anti-arabic stance. For Maronites for instance many families and clans have indisputabily (with old historic references) arab lineage : Chehab (maanites), Abilamaa (lakhmides), Hobeich, al-Hachem, the Dhaou federation (which regroups dozens of families as Lahoud, Abi Nasr, Neemah, Labki...), and probably Khazen qnd Boustany and many others. Some parties minimize the heritage for political aims. Furthermore Maronite and Copts too are strongly tied with arabic culture as they are arabic speakers and largely contributed to arabic language, litterature and arts. The article will need to be rewritten for more accurancy --Katous1978 (talk) 18:46, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

This article is about Arab Christians. What is anti-Arabic in writing an article about Arab Christians?GreyShark (dibra) 21:20, 25 December 2019 (UTC)
@Katous1978 and Greyshark09: I personally do not find this article "anti-Arabic", but I point out that there are no valid reasons to exclude Maronites and Copts from counting in the infobox, as the majority of these communities identify with Arabic culture. --Syphax98 (talk) 12:45, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

Population data

The number of Christians living in Arab countries has been shown very low and should be updated according to the source below. https://www.thoughtco.com/christians-of-the-middle-east-2353327

And I have a question Should we show about 20 million people of Arab Christian origin in Latin America?

I have reviewed the changing topics and researched the subject and decided that it is not appropriate to make changes without consulting you. Palpatine the Good (talk) 17:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Infobox picture

The infobox picture does not represent the majority of Arab Christians not now nor historically and I find that it gives a misleading perception. I found this could be an appropriate alternative. Any other suggestions? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:17, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Maronites do not consider themselves Arab. Same with other Christians. Forcing an identity on them is not the right game. People are free to have their identity, particularly when backed by genetics. PopulationGeneticsLevant (talk) 01:08, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
@PopulationGeneticsLevant: What? The only thing forcing an identity is us putting a picture of women in unusual headscarfs as the defining picture of Arab Christians. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
@PopulationGeneticsLevant: Your claim makes no sense. The identity question is heterogeneous among the Maronite community. There are Maronite politicians who claim Phoenician identity, others who claim a Syriac one and still others who identify themselves as Arabs. Who are we to decide that Maronites are not Arabs? Maronites are Arabic speakers and this is enough to call them Arabs. The Maronite community has played a key role in strengthening Arab identity and culture. Just think of Fairuz. I know many Maronites and many of them consider themselves Christian Arabs. I mention you some statements and references taken from Wikipedia:
This is a statement of a Maronite MP: "I, the Maronite Christian Lebanese Arab, grandson of Patriarch Estefan Doueihy, declare my pride to be a part of our people’s resistance in the South. Can one renounce what guarantees his rights?" [9]
Deacon Soubhi Makhoul, administrator for the Maronite Exarchate in Jerusalem, has said "The Maronites are Arabs, we are part of the Arab world. And although it’s important to revive our language and maintain our heritage, the church is very outspoken against the campaign of these people.” [10]
The genetic issue matters little. Most Arabs, both Muslim and Christian, both in the Mashrek and in the Maghreb are descended for the most part from Arabized indigenous people. As you can see, the question is more complex than you think. --Syphax98 (talk) 00:39, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
@Makeandtoss: Hi, I canceled your edit. The alternative is not good, because images of this type are not accepted and all have been set aside. The current image seems to be sufficiently representative. The headscarf was worn by Christian women in Palestine until a few decades ago. --Syphax98 (talk) 00:53, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
@Syphax98: No they were not worn there, not commonly at least, and this is a page for Arab Christians from all over the region and not just Palestine. I will remove the picture until an appropriate one is found. The current one is unacceptable and unrepresentative. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
@Makeandtoss: I don't understand in what the current image is unacceptable and unrepresentative. --Syphax98 (talk) 13:26, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
1 million Arab Christians do not wear white turban-like hijabs. I have never seen anyone wear them nor have I ever seen any historical picture of anyone wearing them nor have I heard of such an attire that was "worn by Christian women in Palestine until a few decades ago". Here is a Palestinian Christian journalist (1878-1949) who "hesitates to receive Muslims in their household unless their women remove their archaic veils". Makeandtoss (talk) 14:13, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
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