Talk:Amazons/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Palaephatus

in intro makes no sense

"Most probably were men.....Most probably did not exist."

Only one thing can be most probable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.91.201.34 (talk) 15:34, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Untitled

New items at bottom, please.

Herodotus

Aziri, who's been lying to you? Herodotus says the Amazons lived in southern Russia, around the Thermodon River.[1] If you claim he said they were North African, show me the quote. - Mustafaa 17:42, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

yes , see this : http://www.nissaba.nl/godinnen/beschra.htm , the writer speak also english , ask him for meer information. you can also see this :http://www.myrine.at/Amazons/index.html.Aziri 11:39, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My understanding is that Amazons were located by various Greek mythographers in both North Africa and the farther shores of the Black Sea in Greek mythology. The idea was that the Amazons were always just beyond the farthest reaches of Greek navigation at the time the story circulated, just like the Cynocephali and Blemmyes. Smerdis of Tlön 14:48, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

the amazones were in all case also a berber fighters. herodotus identificed them as berber .(you have the link in my first answer). the beeldes of amazones are also found in north africa. the name amazons in interpretated too as a berber word that probably cames from the word amazigh (it mean berber)....Aziri 13:03, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

It may be helpful to review what Herodotus actually says, rather than relying on secondary interpretations. It would also be helpful to remember that Herodotus is an inveterate liar and nothing he says should ever be accepted uncritically. —No-One Jones 14:14, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

you are right. herodotus was a big liar . becaue the God is the only one who don't lie , (because he cannot lie) but we can say that anybody is lying when his lie is not wished. examples : the Moor : they where black peopel. (that is a lie, because they where never black. ) +and they are mixed of arab-berber (that is alei because the Moor where in north africa before the coming of the arab). but we don't have to say that he is a liar, but i'm as berber i will say that becaus it belong to me. another will say that not. (that is the deffrence between the lies). if you want more in formation about the libyan amazones , see :[2] or this (more information about their origin):[3].Aziri 14:39, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Aziri, I can't help noticing that you still haven't shown me the quote - someone else claiming that "Herodotus identificeerde hen met de Lybiërs, die vroeger bijna geheel Noord-Afrika bewoonden, met uitzondering van Egypte" is not the same thing as quoting Herodotus. Myrine.at is obviously, at best, highly speculative (to be polite about it), and is certainly not academic enough to go here. - Mustafaa 09:31, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Vlasta's "Women's war" is just a legend; it is not historically attested. Analysis of the legend can be found here. (Sorry, the article is in Czech.) -- Mike Rosoft 22:53, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)


Amazons as an alternative to female infanticide?

The late Mary Renault, who obviously had a deep knowledge of ancient Greece, put forward in fictional form in the linked pair of novels "The King must die" and "The bull from the sea" the theory that giving away your unwanted daughter to become and Amazon was an alternative to female infanticide.

Female infanticide is a common feature of primitive societies. As culture advanced, the Greeks must have become unwilling to do it and so (this is Mary Renault's theory) they gave away their daughters to be Amazons. Those girls would grow up without land or training in civilian skills, so they would have to become mercenary soldiers - "their trade was war", and (this is my own bit of theory) to say that they were "breastless" would not mean that they were without their own breasts, but were taken from their MOTHER'S breasts.

As culture advanced the Greeks would have become ashamed to admit that they had given away their daughters, so would have invented the story of "Amazons from a far-away country" and that was the story that got written down - Mary Renault in "The praise-singer" is interesting on how inaccurate writing down of history and legends must have been when writing was first available. DouglasPercy 08:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


And until recent times families would put surplus daughters into nunneries. It sounds very plausible to me. But that doesn't prove it is true!

Herodotus

About twenty-five hundred years ago, Herodotus in Histories in book four records:

110. About the Sauromatai the following tale is told:--When the Hellenes had fought with the Amazons,--now the Amazons are called by the Scythians /Oiorpata/, which name means in the Hellenic tongue "slayers of men," for "man" they call /oior/, and /pata/ means "to slay,"--then, as the story goes, the Hellenes, having conquered them in the battle at the Thermodon, were sailing away and conveying with them in three ships as many Amazons as they were able to take prisoners. These in the open sea set upon the men and cast them out of the ships; but they knew nothing about ships, nor how to use rudders or sails or oars, and after they had cast out the men they were driven about by wave and wind and came to that part of the Maiotian lake where Cremnoi stands; now Cremnoi is in the land of the free Scythians. There the Amazons disembarked from their ships and made their way into the country, and having met first with a troop of horses feeding they seized them, and mounted upon these they plundered the property of the Scythians.

111. The Scythians meanwhile were not able to understand the matter, for they did not know either their speech or their dress or the race to which they belonged, but were in wonder as to whence they had come and thought that they were men, of an age corresponding to their appearance: and finally they fought a battle against them, and after the battle the Scythians got possession of the bodies of the dead, and thus they discovered that they were women. They took counsel therefore and resolved by no means to go on trying to kill them, but to send against them the youngest men from among themselves, making conjecture of the number so as to send just as many men as there were women. These were told to encamp near them, and do whatsoever they should do; if however the women should come after them, they were not to fight but to retire before them, and when the women stopped, they were to approach near and encamp. This plan was adopted by the Scythians because they desired to have children born from them.

112. The young men accordingly were sent out and did that which had been commanded them: and when the Amazons perceived that they had not come to do them any harm, they let them alone; and the two camps approached nearer to one another every day: and the young men, like the Amazons, had nothing except their arms and their horses, and got their living, as the Amazons did, by hunting and by taking booty.

113. Now the Amazons at midday used to scatter abroad either one by one or by two together, dispersing to a distance from one another to ease themselves; and the Scythians also having perceived this did the same thing: and one of the Scythians came near to one of those Amazons who were apart by themselves, and she did not repulse him but allowed him to lie with her: and she could not speak to him, for they did not understand one another's speech, but she made signs to him with her hand to come on the following day to the same place and to bring another with him, signifying to him that there should be two of them, and that she would bring another with her. The young man therefore, when he returned, reported this to the others; and on the next day he came himself to the place and also brought another, and he found the Amazon awaiting him with another in her company. Then hearing this the rest of the young men also in their turn tamed for themselves the remainder of the Amazons;

114, and after this they joined their camps and lived together, each man having for his wife her with whom he had had dealings at first; and the men were not able to learn the speech of the women, but the women came to comprehend that of the men. So when they understood one another, the men spoke to the Amazons as follows: "We have parents and we have possessions; now therefore let us no longer lead a life of this kind, but let us go away to the main body of our people and dwell with them; and we will have you for wives and no others." They however spoke thus in reply: "We should not be able to live with your women, for we and they have not the same customs. We shoot with bows and hurl javelins and ride horses, but the works of women we never learnt; whereas your women do none of these things which we said, but stay in the waggons and work at the works of women, neither going out to the chase nor anywhither else. We therefore should not be able to live in agreement with them: but if ye desire to keep us for your wives and to be thought honest men, go to your parents and obtain from them your share of the goods, and then let us go and dwell by ourselves."

115. The young men agreed and did this; and when they had obtained the share of the goods which belonged to them and had returned back to the Amazons, the women spoke to them as follows: "We are possessed by fear and trembling to think that we must dwell in this place, having not only separated you from your fathers, but also done great damage to your land. Since then ye think it right to have us as your wives, do this together with us,--come and let us remove from this land and pass over the river Tana also".

116. They crossed over the Tana rising sun for three days' journey from Tana North Wind for three days' journey from the Maiotian lake: and having arrived at the place where they are now settled, they took up their abode there: and from thenceforward the women of the Sauromatai practise their ancient way of living, going out regularly on horseback to the chase both in company with the men and apart from them, and going regularly to war, and wearing the same dress as the men.

117. And the Sauromatai make use of the Scythian tongue, speaking it barbarously however from the first, since the Amazons did not learn it thoroughly well. As regards marriages their rule is this, that no maiden is married until she has slain a man of their enemies; and some of them even grow old and die before they are married, because they are not able to fulfil the requirement of the law." [4]

Has anyone heard the theory that the Amazons were based on the Celtic women who would go into battle dressed like their sons and hunsbands, aka nude.

...or was it the other way round?

Herodotus and Amazons' clothing

"Amazons were described by Herodotus as wearing trousers and having tall stiff caps." --> I cannot seem to find a passage in Herodotus which states this (I tried searching for other passages aside from the passage quoted above through the TLG but with no success) - is this a mistake? suzels, 26-3-2018

Well spotted, added a citation needed tag. Macedonian (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Where did size come into play?

One thing I never saw mentioned was that Amazons (at least in the modern mind) are thought of as being tall, and physically powerful. Is that a modern invention? Or when DID the idea of Amazons being tall and powerful come into play?

You may have Xena in mind? Or are you possibly thinking of virago rather than Amazon?
"...that wild virago!
(Thank heavens I missed her
gangster sister
from Chicago)..." (Kiss Me Kate) --Wetman 02:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Diodorus Siculus wrote in the 1st century for a race of terrifying warriors who lived sometime "in the western parts of Libya, the boundaries of the living world." It was a society, he wrote, different kind from every known society until then. The Amazons are still one of the most famous and durable Greek myths. But were we really if so, I really cut their right breast to be able to stretch more easily their bows and throwing their javelins, as many still believe? Since ancient times there was a paretymologia the same ancient word Amazon in privative alpha and mazos, variation of the word breast. The etymology of this seems rather precise and undeniable, the truth is a little complicated. For example, the prefix a- in ancient Greek can be cumulative, so that 'Amazon' could mean "without breast" or "big breasts" ....123.211.169.74 (talk) 06:33, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Amazons and Hittites

- Were Amazons (of Greek mythology) the mutation of Hittites?

- Was Hippolyte, queen of Amazons, the mutation of Suppiluliuma I, king of Hittites?

- Was Myrine, queen of Amazons, the mutation of Mursili II, king of Hittites?

- Was Antiope, queen of Amazons, the mutation of Hantili, king of Hittites?

- Was Mytilene, princess of Amazons, the mutation of Muwatalli, king of Hittites?

Take account this note:

1) There was a town Amasia or Amaseia in Pontus in Eastern Anatolia.

2) The Amazons were supposed to be daughters of god Ares (in Greek mythology).

However, there was an river Iris or Thermodon, in their land.

Plus, in Greek mythology:

etc.

--IonnKorr 19:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Also Hittites where usually portrayed as clean shaven and wore their hair long and flowing like (women). They had Military cadence calls along the lines of 'wearing their mothers clothing'. Reasons to consider them warrior women in the eyes of their enemies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.113.41.67 (talk) 22:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)


haha it's like pokémon than... Pikachu ---> Raichu etc-...


No.No.No.No. The Amazons are the people Herodotus describes. Read the last section of the article. The location is clearly north of the Black Sea, not south of it. Amazon like people have existed throughout human history; just rarely.

WAS 4.250 01:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


ok. ok. ok. ok.

Thanks, for your answer, friend WAS.

--Ionn-Korr 09:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Actually, Thermadon and Themiscyra have both been placed by some scholars in eastern Anatolia. Plus, if you place any faith in such things, Amazons were supposed to have sacked towns like Ephesus and fought wars against ancient Phrygia, and to have been allies of Troy. That said, I think the connections suggested above with Hittite kings are baseless. --

Briangotts (talk) 15:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Amazons were supposed to have sacked towns like Ephesus and fought wars against ancient Phrygia, and to have been allies of Troy. Says who? Based on what? Anybody can make stuff up.

WAS 4.250 15:51, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Three notes:

1) "War between Amazons and Troy (under leadership of king Priam)", in Phrygia and Mysia, in Western Anatolia, is mentioned in Iliad by Homer.

2) "War between Amazons (under leadership of queen Myrine) and an people Atlantes (perhaps, Arzawa) and capturing of Ephesus, in coast of Asia Minor is mentioned by Diodorus the Siceliotes.

3) "War between Hittites (under leadership of king Mursili II (= queen Myrine?)) and Arzawans (under leadership of king Uhhaziti)" is mentioned in Hittitic texts.

In during of this war, Hittites took the city "Apasa" (= Ephesus), capital of Arzawa.

Two questions:

1) Are river's name Thermodon (not Thermadon) and city's name Themiscyra related etymologically?

Thermodon < The(r)modon < Themodon

Themiscyra or Themis-kyra

2) Are name "Thermodon (~ Themodon)" and name "Amazon" related etymologically?

e.g. Amazon > *Amatjon > Thamadjon > Themodon.


Thanks to Briangotts and WAS for their comments.

[ WAS, the photo/image, in your page, is divine.]

--Ionn-Korr 19:19, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


Interesting stuff. I did a little research and the best summary of what I found is

here.

WAS 4.250 04:25, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


This is great stuff. I have to think about it. However, Myrina of the Amazons... seems to derive her name from Maryanu/Mitanni, which both appear in Egyptian glyphs for the same tribe. So Amazons of Myrina were a-mi-ts-ani, or mitanni. And Myrina signed a friendship treaty with Horus(Thutmose 4). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:581:C300:290:BD36:C511:F717:EDEB (talk) 22:21, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Modern Female Military/Security units

Did you guys know that Col. Kadaffi of Libya has a contingent of FEMALE security personnel ? Heard about this before the 'net came into being long ago.Martial Law 07:27, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Some other world leaders may have these female military/security contingents. Martial Law 07:31, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Please clarify citations

They attacked the Phrygians, who were assisted by Priam, then a young man (Iliad, iii. 189). Although in his later years, towards the end of the Trojan War, his old opponents took his side again against the Greeks under their queen Penthesilea, who was slain by Achilles (Quint. Smyr. i.; Justin ii. 4; Virgil, Aen. i. 490).

These literature references (highlighted in bold) are not easily understandable. At least, I don't understand the first two. Perhaps they should be made into links. Could someone who understands them please fix? SpectrumDT 21:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

amazons

amazons are turkic people

yeap i read about it
these are sources:
[5]
[6]
[7]
[8]

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.107.209.253 (talk) 21:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

amazons

it is only extremist(feminist) theory that something like that ever existed

Not true. You should learn about the Minoan Women. With the fall of the Minoan civilization, there has yet to be discovered a culture which was dominated by women the way the Minoan culture was.

Antiope - contradiction?

The Amazons article says "He was accompanied by his friend Theseus, who carried off the princess Antiope, sister of Hippolyte, an incident which led to a retaliatory invasion of Attica, in which Antiope perished fighting by the side of Theseus." - now, the actual article on Antiope claims that "During this conflict, known as the Attic War, Antiope was said to have fought on the side of the Amazons. She was seriously wounded and could no longer defend herself from Theseus and his retainers (which included Heracles). Watching these events take place, the Amazon Molpadia killed the queen with an arrow (some say spear), saving her from violation by the Athenian king.". Why does neither article mention the other's take on the story? ~ Luckz † 16:33, 15 June 2006 (CET)


Citations

Maybe we could include these quotes in the article?

'Once before now I travelled to Phrygia where the vines grow, and there I saw a host of Phrygian men with their quick horses...I too was among them on the day when the Amazons came, women the equal of men.' Priam, in Homer's 'The Iliad'.

'This was the origin of the Amazonian invasion of Athens, which would seem to haven been no slight or womanish enterprise.[...]For indeed we are also told that [a number] of the Amazons [who] died were buried there in the place that is to this time called Amazoneum'. Plutarch, 'Life of Theseus'.

Raystorm August 2, 2006, 16.23h

Early accounts of the Iliad, meaning early period, Pentheseleia is not found in older versions of Iliad, i.e. Homer, and is taken from a variety of late/post Homeric sources. In other words Pentheseleia and her Amazons do not appear in older versions of Homer's Iliad but in late Classical & Roman periods. Older ancient Greek graves that have been found explains the origin of Pentheseleia that she was one of Athen's fighting Amazon priestesses defeated by Theseus or Heracles. In later Greek writings they say Pentheseleia, Athene's fighting Amazon priestesses, is defeated by the Aeolian invaders; Aeolians were one of hundreds of ancient Greek tribes that existed back then and fought one another; this was the bases of the Achilles and Pentheseleia storyline since Achilles is of Aeolian origins, i.e. Phthian Achilles is an Aeolian hero. Also according to Pausanias and other ancient writers in Athens on the central wall of the Painted Colonnade found on Athene’s shield and elsewhere were fightings between ancient priestesses of Athens for the office of High-priestess and in other scenes were invasions of Attica (Attica is the region that Athens is found in) and the resistance offered by these priestesses against the invaders. ;)~Mallaccaos, 17 August 2006


Paragraphs anyone?

As in the section: Minoan vs Mycenaeans... et al. So many sections are just one long running, and quite daunting paragraph. Some sections might have several, but these paragraphs! Anyone care to make a stab at slicing some of them apart? I would do it, but I'm not too familiar with the content and I'm afraid I'll lose something important. MagnoliaSouth 14:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Clarity

It says:

In the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica speculation ranged along the following lines.

What lines? From a reader's point of view, nothing is telling me where the lines begin and where the lines end. Nothing is indented to indicate a quote, italicized or anything. Again, since I'm unfamiliar with the content, would someone like to fix this? MagnoliaSouth 14:24, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

"Minoan Warrior Priestesses", Frank Frazetta calendar art and Conan the Barbarian"

The pop Amazon fancruft intruded here has overwhelmed this formerly sensible and carefully-written article. There is no connection between the Amazons of the Greek imagination, placed at the edges of their known world, and the historical Minoan culture of Crete, which undoubtedly had more respect for women than Hellenes' did. The connection is solely through a modern image of all strong independent women as "Amazons." It is only made possible by avoiding all serious reading in mythology, geography or archaeology. Caveat lector.--Wetman 22:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

..."When seen in profile, the full, rounded breasts, coloured white and with dark-coloured erect nipples, protrude significantly. The wide belt or girdle must also serve to pull in the rib cage, forcing the chest out and adding to the projection of the breasts. Although they might be partially supported by the pulled-back sides of the tight bodice, their firmness and lack of any indication of sagging would suggest that the woman not only is young but also has not yet had any children..." History? Archaeology? Mythology? Encyclopedia? --Wetman 22:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
You're absolutely right. I'm removing that section right now. Asarelah 02:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I trust we're not the only ones who thought the seriousness of the aricle was being compromised. --Wetman 03:03, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

the article is overburdened with tangential material now. The "Sources" section doesn't belong. The "popular culture" part needs to be split off. And the article on Minoan women is inserted here for some reason needs to be verified and moved somewhere else. dab (ᛏ) 08:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Rubbing Out A little Vandalism

I made a minor change to the image description of the Dahomey female warriors. As you can see in the edit history, I believe the (anonymous) person before me edited it purely with racist/inflammatory intent. I just wanted to draw attention, in case admin users could use it. My apologies for not simply reverting the page, still new to this whole system. --Robigus 00:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

bogus "etymology"

The following is historically impossible: "Another popular theory reveals that the word Amazon derives from Persian "Ham Zan", meaning "all women". The word amazon appears in Homer. A possible shared source might be looked for, but modern jingoism doesn't supplant history. --Wetman 22:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"society dominated by women"?

It began with me removing the claim that the Amazons were a "land", but AnonMoos' insistence led me to consider the intro in greater detail. His claim that the Amazons were a legendary nation of female warriors, or (or as in "also" or "alternatively" or what?) a society dominated by women" appears to be in contradiction with the article body. We say that "In some versions, no men were permitted to reside in Amazon country", but nowhere do we allow for the possibility of an "Amazon society" that includes men. To allege that the "Amazons were a society dominated by women" seems to refer to speculations about historical counterparts to the Amazons, not to the Amazons themselves. So, although the current version is less ridiculous than the one claiming the Amazons were a "land", it would appear that the "or a society dominated by women" bit will have to be removed as unsourced (that is, possibly freely invented). dab (ᛏ) 16:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Speculative article

I don't like messing with someone else's article so a few suggestions:

This article is written with the thought Amazons actually existed, while no hard evidence exists. I think it could/should be stated more clearly that Amazons as a nation of warrior-women were probably entirely fictional. And please state the so-called evidence isnt worth much as a few graves of women and weapons inside it does not mean they actually used them in combat or if this applied to more than a few noblewomen (from a historians point of view).

Regarding Herodotus & others: he says a lot of things we now consider to be untrue and he can't be used as a reliable source as he got most of his information second-hand but you most likely knew this. I suggest adding that Classical writers' comments on the Amazons can be compared with that on Germanic and Celtic tribes, often giving them characteristics they might never have had (francisca axe for example for the Franks) and even making up entire tribes.

then a few weak sections:

"In Europe, Celtic and Germanic tribes often had women fighting with their husbands." often? more like sometimes.

"Among the Mongols and the ancient Turks were many heroic women." who has ever heard of a single one?

"In Scandinavia, women who did not yet have the responsibility for raising a family could take up arms and live like warriors." never heard that one before, source? Women living now could do the same thing but I doubt any do.

"In the Finnish Civil War 1918, the Reds had woman guard units (naiskaarti). They often fought more furiously than their male counterparts and seldom surrendered, as they knew what to expect if captured. Their ferocity etc..." the whole part about them fighting more furiously etc. is plain exaggeration and what's the source?

Wiki1609 11:30, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Although certainly some assertions like what you mentioned above need to be cleaned up a bit, I don't think that it should be stated that the Amazons were "probably entirely ficitonal". I don't know how familiar you are with the subject of the Amazons, but I think it is worth mentioning the various theories regarding them from scholars such as L.R. Farnell, J.L. Myres, Dr. Joachim Burge, and Dr. Jeannine Davis-Kimball. Even the 1911 Britannica (which is hardly a modern feminist revision!) states: "While some regard the Amazons as a purely mythical people, others assume an historical foundation for them." The article should explore the various theories regarding Amazons and not immediately dismiss them as total fiction. Asarelah 15:28, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm really not familiar with Amazons but I always thought they were about as credible as say, Atlantis. Atlantis has quite a lot of Ancient sources about it as well but is generally thought not to have existed (at least there is insufficient proof as of now). Besides this it just seems very unlikely that an all-female society should have existed because AFAIK there have never been single-sex societies anywhere. I think it loses a lot of credibility on this point. And the historians you quote also state that it might have "historical foundation", meaning female combattants will surely have existed if only out of necessity to defend oneself, but an all-female warrior nation just doesn't seem very likely, meaning Amazons as such are most likely fictional. I must add ofcourse I studied no sources whatsoever but I do know there's no comparable situation in history.

Wiki1609 19:21, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The modern historians have written about Amazons do not claim that the Amazons were an all-female nation of women, they claimed that the Amazons were likely based upon cultures that routinely had warrior women in them. There's a big difference between the two.Asarelah 22:56, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Please check the References listed for this article and make sure all the major references that you are familiar with have been included. Thank you. --Wetman 00:11, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed merging

This article and Amazon (people) obviously cover the same subject and should be merged. I don't see much to discuss about it, it should be done. Since this is the much the bigger and longer article, I suupose that this should be essentially the integrating into this article of any information which is in the other one and not here. Andreas Kaganov 00:05, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Very sensible. Who could object? Don't leave any references behind. --Wetman 02:14, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Col. Kadaffi

Did you know that Col. Kadaffi of Libya has a "Amazon" detail as his bodyguards ? They're ALL women and will kick ass IF someone tried anything "funny". 65.173.104.223 04:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Women Warriors section

I think we should delete the women warriors in folklore and history section on the basis that there are already various timelines on Wikipedia detailing the history of women in warfare, and especially detailing historical women warriors. The section is getting longer and longer and most, if not all, of the information contained in it can be found in the timelines. We can simply replace the section with a link to the timelines. Agreed? Asarelah 17:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Tricky, insofar as European explorers and scholars once had a tendency to name many individuals and groups of non-submissive or exotic women "Amazons". While history and folklore are potentially separate categories-- let alone the diverse cultures and situations of these women and folklore are from-- the subject as a whole is of genuine scholarly interest, such as women's studies. And it is certainly a category of contemporary pop culture. I would recommend a separate listing for Women Warriors or some equivalent title. — Yamara 22:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the idea of "Women warriors" is that what defines a "warrior" (as opposed to a soldier or war leader) appears to be pretty hazy. There was a category of "Women warriors" and it was deleted. Perhaps it would work better if we simply included a link about historial women in war and left in the folkloric and fictional information in the article. Please give me your opinion on the article Timeline of women in ancient warfare, and let me know if you think it and the various other women in war timelines would be suffiecient for the subject of women warriors. Asarelah 23:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Turquoiseeyes proposed additions - Amazons and ancient Turks relation

Amazons were an ancient tribe of Kirghiz Turks who migrated to ancient Turkey from ancient Mongolia! National Geographic Research-PBS program Resources: https://www.thirteen.org/pressroom/pdf/sod/amazon/SOTDAmazonWarriorRelease.pdf http://www.republicanchina.org/Turk_Uygur.html#origin -- unsigned comment by User:Turquoiseeyes 23:55, 4 July 2007

That's nice. If this was published in National Geographic magazine (hardly a leading ancient history scholarly journal!), which issue did it appear in (volume and year number)? And how does this square with the well-known fact that Iranian-speaking peoples such as Scyths, Sakas, Sogdians, and Sarmatians inhabited Central Asia and Southern Russia ca. 500 B.C., and for a number of centuries thereafter? There's no reliable evidence for significant numbers of "Altaic" speakers west of Lake Balkhash until the 1st. century B.C., and no reliable evidence for significant numbers of Turkic speakers west of Lake Balkhash until the 6th century A.D. -- both of which are far too late to be relevant to ancient Amazons.
P.S. Can you give me a target date as to when you'll be able to spell the word meaning "inhabitants of Troy" according to normal English-language usage? AnonMoos 01:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, read the resources very carefully. It's a well known fact that Sycthians and Sakas were originated from Altai mountains and ancient Mongolia where ancient Turks had lived anciently as well as Central Asia. Sarmatians and Huns were the successors of Sycthians. But we are discussing Amazons here, it has been scientifically proven that they had migrated from ancient mongolia around 1000 B.C. when the Trojan(Troyan or Truvali) war occurred. It is a very clear fact that from Chinese and Turkish records; ancient Turks lived at ancient Mongolia until Mongol movement from east (600 A.D) and ancient Turks had also lived at whole Central Asia(Turkestan) from Chinese Wall to Black Sea. Ancient Iranians had only lived at Iran and Mesopotamia. The history records are very clear, it clearly states around 200 B.C. Kirghiz Turks had lived at ancient Mongolia. If you don't have a proof that somebody other than Turks had lived at ancient Mongolia before the Turks, then accept the fact.

P.S. Can you give me a date that when you will be able to understand the scientific research results and accept the truth with facts? By the way ancient name of Troy is Truva and inhabitants were named as Troyans as well as Trojans. User:Turquoiseeyes 19:25, 5 July 2007]]

Turquoiseeyes, understand that Wikipedia has seen a lot of Turkish national mysticist nonsense, and our patience is consequently limited. Just cite your notable sources (National Geographic will be fine, but you need to cite issue and page number). Don't bother citing random internet sites (republicanchina.org, thirteen.org), see WP:RS. This talkpage is not the place for Pan-Turkish fantasies, thankyou. dab (𒁳) 14:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

dab or whatever it means, this site is not for Turk haters like you either, you need to accept the scientific facts as well as historical records. The resources are very clear, National Geographic and you can watch sometimes PBS about this research and accept the Chinese history records. They recorded the history at Asia not somewhere in the world. Why does it bother you so much that Amazons were Turk origin? Get a life and accept the truth! User:Turquoiseeyes 18:25, 16 July 2007

"Amazon" is a generic term for any "female warrior". Our angry pro-"Turkish" contributor is offering as a source a familiar PBS "Secrets of the Dead" segment concerning a mummified blonde female warrior discovered in Western Mongolia, already discussed. Truva is not the English-language term for Troy or Ilium: it just isn't. --Wetman 02:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

if my comment makes me a "Turk hater", I submit that it is clear what we are dealing with here: a clear case of WP:DFTT. dab (𒁳) 07:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The resources are very clear. I did not make these researches and did not record history but the National Geographic and Chinese did. Get a life and accept the truth.User:Turquoiseeyes 18:45, 19 July 2007 Another turkomongoloid and his nationalistic delusions... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.107.180.73 (talk) 10:52, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Amazon names

As if there weren't already enough distracting sand in the air, an editor temporarily deleted the statement: "Some "Amazon" names are purely poetic invention," a statement which is followed by a litany of Amazonesque inventions by Quintus Smyrnaeus, with the edit summary "you can't know for sure". The possible transmission of these names to Q. Smyrnaeus would involve a lot of Original Research, and a dose of anhistorical fancy. Is there any printed source for such a transmission? The statement was returned to the article. I'm seeing an increase in whimsical deletions made with knowledgeable airs. --Wetman 04:36, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

But how can we know that the names are "purely poetic invention"? There was no source to that statement whatsoever. Merely assuming that they are and then putting that assumption into the article seems to be Original Research. If it is true that they are poetic invention, then by all means, keep the sentence in, but please cite the source that you got the information from. I also really don't appreciate your implication that I'm putting on "knowledgeable airs" by deleting the statement in what was an honest attempt to improve this article. Asarelah 01:16, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
What is the cultural bridge by which Asarelah thinks Amazon names were transmitted to Quintus Smyrnaeus in the fourth century CE? Suggesting a thousand years by word-of-mouth will make interesting reading once it has been published. "Some 'Amazon' names are purely poetic invention." The statement is followed by the list, which is self-explanatory. The argument from ignorance is never a strong one. --Wetman 05:26, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
We can't know for certain where the names of the Greek heros in the Illiad came from, as the events which the Illiad is probably based on took place at least 450 years prior to Homer writing the poem, yet nobody feels the need to write that the names are "poetic invention" in the Illiad article. Furthermore, the article about Quintus Smyrnaeus states that he drew upon archaic works from the Epic Cycle that have since been lost. Why isn't it possible that the names came these sources? Asarelah 23:42, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
If someone can't distinguish between names established in epic tradition and written down in the 6th c. BCE, from poetical fancies as multiplied in the highly decorative poem by Quintus Smyrnaeus in the 4th c. CE, how can one have a sensible discussion? Are there any competent adults watching this page who would like to comment on the commonplace statement "Some "Amazon" names are purely poetic invention"? Why any competent person would challenge such a tame bromide with the retort "We can't know for certain" defeats me. --Wetman 01:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
You're right, Wetman. Most of those names seem variations on the same theme (almost all come from Greek words associated with battle). It's surprising how neatly they meet the demands of the Greek hexameter too. --Folantin 08:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

After a nine-months' pregnant interval, I have just now been arrested on charges of violating Wikipedia etiquette in this exchange for suggesting that the challenge to the statement, effected by peremptory deletion made by some editor whose name I left out of my initial remark as irrelevant, is a sign of incompetence in this field. I stand by my initial objection and hope that competent and curious grown-ups might be willing to remark on the basic facts right here at this Amazons talkpage or here. No one need come to my defense. The question is simply whether a competent editor would delete the sentence "Some "Amazon" names are purely poetic invention out of hand without discussing it. Folantin made two sensible observations last year. --Wetman (talk) 01:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking as an outsider, yes. The etymology of Amazon names is not the kind of issue that needs a lot of attention in the article, so removing the statement doesn't leave an unfortunate gap. And such a statement really ought to be sourced. As for "without discussing it" -- that's generally the way things work. First, be bold and make your change; if others object, they will revert and say so, and then discussion is needed. See WP:BRD. Mangojuicetalk 04:52, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know any source for the name Ainia?

Connection of Amazons and Kaška

There needs to be a reference to a published connection made between Amazons and Kaška in order for this not to seem like original research. --Wetman (talk) 23:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article has been in complete disarray for ages now. It is high time we sort it out. Can we at first agree that this article is about the actual Amazons as presented in Greco-Roman literature? The meaning "woman warrior" and various pop culture references do not belong here. Discussion of women and warfare in archaeology are also offtopic, unless they are clearly tied to a discussion of the Amazons literary tradition in the source cited. The 1849 essay by Ukert[9] gives a perfectly competent overview of the topic, and I find it difficult to accept that our 2008 article is so very much poorer than a writeup compiled more than 150 years ago. Once we have a coherent outline of the topic, we can still refer to "recent archaeological finds" if at all relevant to the topic. dab (𒁳) 09:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

On the whole, I would tend to agree, although I'm not sure why all pop-culture references should be considered "off-topic". Certainly, bringing every militarily-inclined woman from Deborah on down into the discussion is pointless and distracting, but on those rare occasions when a pop-culture figure is literally an Amazon (Wonder Woman springs to mind), why not say so? Otherwise, you run the risk of making the Amazons seem like an obscure aspect of Greek mythology with no more influence on the modern world than the Hecatonchires. -Agur bar Jacé (talk) 12:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

if the pop-culture figure is literally an Amazon (unlike the DC Amazons, "a fictional all-female society of superhumans") and is of sufficient notability, I have no objection to mentioning them. For all else, the statement "From the Early Modern period, their name has become a term for woman warriors in general" right there in the lead is really all that is needed. dab (𒁳) 12:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Amazon

Means Many Breasted!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.227.255.91 (talk) 10:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Find a citation before you put it into the article, please. Asarelah (talk) 16:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
There is no definitive etymology of the word Amazon. But the folk etymology Mr. Unsigned attempted and utterly failed at identifying, was the claim that "Amazon" comes from: a- "without" + mazos "breasts," which was the basis for the mythical belief that Amazons would cut off their right breast. Or burn off their right breast. Or remove both. Or something. None of the Greek writers could ever agree on what exactly they did. And no historian considers this etymology valid anyway, except insofar as it was a thing the ancient Greeks believed. The exact origin of the word, to this day, remains unknown. 76.93.65.34 (talk) 09:26, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

the actual etymology is almost certainly the Iranian tribal name mentioned, although there is of course no way to prove this beyond all doubt today. --dab (𒁳) 13:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

"Amazon Women"

Is it just me or does anyone else find the phrase "Amazon Women" to be redundant in the context of a "woman only society"? - Team4Technologies (talk) 23:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Problem

"But experts agree[citation needed] that the Amazons would not have had the medical knowledge to manage the inevitable massive hemorrhage or infection if such ablation of the breast actually occurred."

Um... the quote from Herodotus refers to something like breast ironing, not actual amputation. It seems from the breast ironing article that it's not done with medical assistance (and probably under unhygienic conditions, from what I know of Africa), so this seems utterly wrong. I'm sure you could find someone to argue anything, but "experts agree" - no way. Unless someone can find a cite soon, I'll remove this. Vultur (talk) 05:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

OK, I posted this over amonth ago, and the cite tags were from March. I removed it; it can be added back if someone finds a cite from some reputable source that actually argues this. Vultur (talk) 03:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
Sorry I didn't get to this! (didn't really look through"; yeah, good thing you removed that. I've never heard of such things! BlackPearl14[talkies!•contribs!] 03:32, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

See also and sex clubs

User:Powerzilla has been adding a link to Other World Kingdom, an Austrian Czech sex club, in the See also section. We've gone back and forth a couple times on its suitability now, so it's time to put it here. I figure it's out of scope -- while discussing Amazon parallels at the club article makes sense, the club is utterly irrelevant in the context of Amazons. Thoughts? — Lomn 01:24, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason I thought the addition of this micronation to this article is its philosophies and attributes are quite similar to those of the legendary Amazons. Sure this is a sex club, but it acts like a independent nation, has its own courts, police force, etc. as stated in its own article. Hope this helps. Powerzilla (talk) 02:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
A micronation's "courts" and "police force" aren't really the best examples. — Lomn 03:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality of language in introductory paragraph

I don't want to seem totally humorless and know it was probably written with fine intentions, but the term "feisty" can be taken as condescending or patronizing of women in the current context. Such a description would not likely (nor appropriately) be applied to similar, male-inclusive groups like the Myrmidons or Lapiths.

This is ultimately a neutrality problem, from my point of view, as it (though probably unintentionally) could be taken to suggest that the information is presented through the filter of sexism. "Warlike," "aggressive," or "formidable" might be acceptable substitutes--and perhaps some other contributors can think of still better adjectives.

Sleepwalkfaller (talk) 03:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree, and was actually just about to comment on this. "Feisty" applied to female warriors is not only condescending or patronizing, but out-right demeaning. I say it goes. Jupiterzguy (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC).

Concur, and adjective removed (I don't think any are essential). "Some believe that these women were simply myth" is perfectly cromulent, though you're welcome to add another adjective if you see fit. — Lomn 21:30, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Breasts

If yr citation is full of citation neeeded, if there are no archeology, nor paitings that could prove the meaning linked to no breasts, then, the source I provided should be the one to remain. Jackiestud (talk) 10:21, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.whoosh.org/issue12/ruffel3.htmlJackiestud (talk) 10:33, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Ah yes, the famous "Journal of the International Association of Xenoid Studies", Xenoid Studies being the study of Xena: Warrior Princess (XWP), an action/fantasy television show which was produced 1995-2001. Remind me why this is a reliable source? dougweller (talk) 11:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
No, this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amazon

http://www.whoosh.org/issue12/ruffel3.html

A Dictionary and a scholar book. And the french and german Wps. Jackiestud (talk) 11:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
A scholar book? What scholar book?
The french and german Wipedia do notaccept the term of "no breats".
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazones / http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazonen Jackiestud (talk) 12:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
yr silence means that you accept my sources? A~s far as I know, translation from one WP to another is allowed; thus, can I translate from the french and german Wps? Jackiestud (talk) 12:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)::
Whose silence? Our article does not accept the term 'no breasts'. So what's the problem? Translation is allowed, sure, if the other article is better. But ours is better in this case. dougweller (talk) 12:22, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Iam the one who asks

  1. (amazons)So, Iam the one who asks, why don´t you accept my version which only cites the scythian/iranian origin?
  2. (Berbers, Patriarchy, matriarchy, musuos...)The above citation, from two scholars link the words amazigh and amazons, just as the german scholar does... (so we account for two sources from scholars and the other two articles!). Jackiestud (talk) 12:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Are these sources fine for you? Do they justify my edition?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heide_G%C3%B6ttner-Abendroth
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2133/whats-up-with-the-amazons --Does this guy has any skil at all?
http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/ama/ama08.htm --This guy might have also some Phd, a philologist...
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazones
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazonen
http://www.whoosh.org/issue12/ruffel3.html --This author, July Ruffell, any skills?
Dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amazon

Jackiestud (talk) 12:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

We really must mention the 'no breasts' etymology because it exists and for a lot of people it is the only one they know. And it would be added it it wasn't there. No, we don't use other Wikepedia articles as sources, Ruffell is writing in a web journal about Xena the Warrior Queen/fantasty tv character, Göttner-Abendroth isn't qualified, Straight-Dope is nice but not academic, and exactly what is incorrect about what's in the article already? Also, and this is important to you as an editor, you are arguing against a number of other editors across a number of articles, which may well be perceived as edit warring if it continues the same way it has gone on the last couple of days. dougweller (talk) 13:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Jackiestud needs to learn the difference between a reference and an URL. You can use google to find references, but once you've found it, you cite the reference, not the URL where you happened to stumble on it. Of course we can make reference to Guy Cadogan Rothery's The Amazons (1910) in proper context, I don't think anyone would object to that. --dab (𒁳) 13:16, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Iam sorry you again seems to have a very strong TV culture, mentioning Xena in an obssessive way! I´ve cited a Dictinary and DDbachmann now seems to be OK with a 1910 reference. I´ve also (as for the zilionth time!) cited other Wps (thus many other editors and admins included) and Abendroth seems to be also fine for Dbachmann. Jackiestud (talk) 13:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't know that I've ever seen Xena, but you keep citing an article in a webjournal dedicated to Xena studies, so it isn't me that is being obsessive. Note 'proper context'. And once again, what is wrong with the etymology as it stands? dougweller (talk) 13:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Forget the Xena, I never heard of it. Foucs at least the Dictionary, Xena is driving you nut, certainly! What is wrong with my text? The name is supposedly derived from Greek a-mazos or "without a breast," due to the legend that these female greek warriors cut off their right breasts so as to be better able to shoot with a bow and arrow. But this folk etimology is incorrect. As Scythians, the amazons were an Iranian people renowned for their cavalry; the Ionians, constantly threatened by these Persians (the most important Iranian), were the first to ever come into contact with them. Amazōn is the Ionian Greek form of the Iranian word ha-mazan, fighting together. The regular Greek form would be hamazōn, but because the Ionians dropped their aitches, hamazōn became amazōn, the form taken into the other Greek dialetc [2] [3]. Jackiestud (talk) 13:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
You should have checked your source and then you would have understood that you were arguing for a Xena studies magazine. The text says "This word is probably derived from an Iranian ethnonym *ha-mazan-, "warriors"". It also mentions the Classical Greek etymology, which I wouldn't call a 'folk etymology' (by the way, please spell etymology correctly in articles). It needs to mention that, but it doesn't accept it. If we focussed on the dictionary definition we would have (only ) "L Amazōn < Gk Amazn, of obscure orig." Is that what you are proposing? dougweller (talk) 13:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

reset button

Would you agree to publih my text above cited together with the online one? Jackiestud (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope
  1. Dictionary: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/amazon:

In classical legend the Amazons were a tribe of warrior women. Their name is supposedly derived from Greek a-mazos, "without a breast," because according to the legend they cut off their right breasts so as to be better able to shoot with a bow and arrow. This folk etymology, like most folk etymologies, is incorrect, but the Amazons of legend are not so completely different from the historical Amazons, who were also warriors. The historical Amazons were Scythians, an Iranian people renowned for their cavalry. The first Greeks to come into contact with the Iranians were the Ionians, who lived on the coast of Asia Minor and were constantly threatened by the Persians, the most important of the Iranian peoples. Amazōn is the Ionian Greek form of the Iranian word ha-mazan, "fighting together." The regular Greek form would be hamazōn, but because the Ionians dropped their aitches like Cockneys, hamazōn became amazōn, the form taken into the other Greek dialects.

  1. Apart from the dictionary:
The source you considered "fine": http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2133/whats-up-with-the-amazons Jackiestud (talk) 14:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
By fine I meant 'nice', that page says "SO ACCURACYWISE YOU'D BETTER KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED." There's no reason to use it. As for the dictionary, I quoted the first etymology, you should have specified which dictionary you meant. In any case, our article already has ha-mazan in the first sentence. We do need some references though, but preferably not from an ordinary dictionary. dougweller (talk) 14:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Footnote. Xena is mentioned among many other amazons, an extensive list. This is a serious article. Pls do not diminish the seriousness of it picking Xena as a Tv series... Jackiestud (talk) 14:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
(insert swear word of your choice) YOU brought up a Xena studies journal as a reference, that you didn't know what it was is not my fault. And you kept mentioning it. I'm not the one bringing up references from fantasy fan magazine. dougweller (talk) 14:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Google Books

Do you consider this extensive work, a BOOK, a reliable source? http://books.google.com.br/books?id=3ioj1w25y5kC&dq=Guy+Cadogan+Rothery&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=yysHa0F29j&sig=nvqqVhlQ4PO5Go8qlBdEEZoCU7M&hl=pt-BR&ei=-zvKSbejK8qDtge3pICTAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result ? Jackiestud (talk) 14:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/ama/index.htmJackiestud (talk) 14:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/wmn/ama/ama08.htm Jackiestud (talk) 14:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

We've discussed Rothery here and elsewhere, nothing new here. He writes about inglenooks and garden steps, why would he be a reliable source? And why do you give 3 links to the same thing? dougweller (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
Berbes and Amazigh as synonimous
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a741636347~db=all (link from the WP berber article.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Ftz_gtO-pngC&pg=PA667&dq=Ibn+Khald%C5%ABn+berbers&ei=jUbKSYD_B6DCzQTmy_WkAg&hl=pt-BR#PPA65,M1

Jackiestud (talk) 15:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Please stop this. You aren't even trying to connect your edits to this article, and our Berber article already says more or less that. dougweller (talk) 15:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the problem. Cadogan Rothery (1910) states that "There have been some authors who trace the word Amazon from this term [Amazigh]." What is the problem? This is just another obsolete 19th century etymology. We can mention it and be done. Nobody would consider this suggestion as serious for five seconds today. It isn't necessary to even refute it. But it may still be of historical interest. Neither does anyone seriously consider the "no breasts" etymology. It just happens to be more notable than the equally false Amazigh one beacuse it dates to antiquity. --dab (𒁳) 12:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, Jackiestud, please try cut down on the hysteria a little bit, stop creating a new section header every five minutes, and begin acting as if you were a grown-up participating in an encyclopedic discussion. This isn't usenet. --dab (𒁳) 12:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Amazon fans, am I alone in taking the Greek use of AMAZON to be simply a convention for describing Matriarchal societies? Because, if you start from this basis and then compare: all the Greek/Hellenic authors; the archaeological evidence from the locations mentioned at appropriate dates; the Deities assocciated with Amazons AND other cultures with a Great Mother Goddess outside of the Greek references(Al-Ubaid for instance); apparent Mother Goddess Shrines/Temples/iconography; the weopens assocciated with Amazons and their Metal working; current theories on post diluvian emigrations(Black Sea not World Flood), then you might make some connections which incorporate the Amazons as part of the mainstream of prehistory. It is also possible that I've been too dicriminatory in my list of things to compare...10 years ago three of my students produced an interesting resume of "Rubbish Geneologies" listing the use of Trojan and Amazon characters in Western origin myths. HairyDruid (talk)HairyDruidHairyDruid (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:09, 7 May 2009 (UTC).

Hi Hairy, I was about to delete your edit to the article when someone else did. Don't take it amiss, but it really needed citing. I've given you a welcome menu on your talk page, but meanwhile you might want to read WP:VERIFIABLE, WP:RESOURCES andWP:ORIGINAL RESEARCH (the latter to see the major differences between an article here and an essay). Don't feel bad about the deletion, it's just part of the learning curve here and happens to us all. It may seem odd to you, but verifiability is key here, we aren't trying to serve up The Truth. Dougweller (talk) 16:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Citation problem

The citation for Antianeira crippling her male servants directs to the page for the Greek poet Mimnermus, which mentions zilch about Antianeira or the act of which it's supposed to be verifying and has no outside links to sources verifying it. It should be replaced with an actual outside citation from a reliable source verifying Antianeira's actions. I'm not even going to go into how unethical (IMO) the idea of Wikipedia using itself as a source on anything, even a myth, is. Spartan198 (talk) 17:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

What the Myth Reveals

As a previous tag states, refs are scant and what is provided seem like thin reeds to support the rest of the argument. Also, even if backed by sources this section could likely stand to be seriously shortened. Ergative rlt (talk) 18:04, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

The name Ainia

Above someone has asked about this name. To make sure people see this, I'm starting a new thread. Here are some sources: [10]. --Dougweller (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Ethymology of Amazon

The section about the etymology of Amazons has no solution, I would like to make a suggestion by getting back to the earlier hebrew, where zone ist little flock or cattle, but also used for prostitution. Even in modern language "Zoni" can be a woman from a restricted "zone", german and english. Of course in German a Zoni is also someone from the East Zone or russian occupied zone, but do not ask about connections to prostitution from there??? Well in case there be hebrew roots, then "ma" is prefix for participle Hifil, really ongoing and "a-" is negation prefix: So first shot is:

From Hebrew A-ma-zon: Not a really ongoing or motherly slot/ little cattle/ flock

"Ma" being also motherly in most languages and the meaning summing up to some woman elevated from common household mezzo or whoredom, some higher ideal What do you think? In german it is also:

In English A(=Not) - Ma(ma) - Zon(e) Leaving the mother zone - beraking of from the fetters or regulations or borders of motherhood; -- (unsigned comment by anon IP#)
Please see WP:NOR. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:23, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Medieval and Renaissance literature, should we note how many lies were common then?

When they found the Americas, people told tales about finding the lost city of Atlantis, the lost tribe of Israel, the legendary Amazons, and other nonsense. They had a group of rabbis about to sail to the Americas to meet the lost tribe of Jews, before it was revealed as a hoax. Claiming to have found the famous Amazons of legend, could just be people engaging in common lies. Dream Focus 13:42, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

We try to keep articles neutral and on topic, and it is not necessary to note "other stuff" to prove a point. It's much like not having to note that Hitler was a genocidal psychopath as the example given in NPOV, the facts should paint that picture on their own without any help from us. But I don't think you would find a lot of opposition nowadays anyway who are protesting that the "famous Amazons of legend" have been found. But the origin of the story is not Medieval or Renaissance literature at all, it is BC times. Diodorus Siculus for example wrote that people in his day had legends of the Amazons having been active some 2000 years before then. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 13:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

duplicate comment in article

Among Classical Greeks, amazon was given a popular etymology as from a-mazos, "without breast", connected with an etiological tradition that Amazons had their right breast cut off or burnt out, so they would be able to throw their javelins;[7] there is no indication of such a practice in works of art, in which the Amazons are always represented with both breasts, although the left is frequently covered (see photos in article).

Some histories claim that each Amazon woman has her right breast amputated so as to draw thier bow more easily, but this is a fallacy. Their name derives from the Greek word mazos meaning "breast" with the prefix "a" denoting an amplitude.[8]

this second paragraph really just copies and pastes the first with someones half assessed attempt to counter argue the point. if no one objects i am going to delete this uneeded extra paragraph in next few days. 152.91.9.153 (talk) 01:37, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Since it was added anonymously only yesterday, and is only a more poorly written version of the same information, I'd say it could be deleted at any time. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:18, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
Gone now. I think we've been trolled by an SPA with a suspicious source; the prefix "a" it turns out does not in fact denote an amplitude. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:32, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Slavic "Amazons" - Omozhene ("man's women, macho women")

The transliteration in Greek was Amazones which remained in Slavic languages as Omoznene; A transmuted into O (or not); like Agni(fire) into Ogni, Ogenj, Anistaha into Ognische (fire place). Today remained as "braids" or "women who became part of men"; when they became married they are "OMOZHENE"; where MOZH or MUZH = "man" and ZHENA (indo european Gena) = "woman"; so literally "Men's women", machist, masculine women".

Mythology: they remained known in later Slavic fairy tales. owerful female warriors also appeared in the folktales of Slavic peoples from southeastern Europe. Led by the warrior Vlasta, these women lived in a castle by the Vltava River. They were aggressive not only in their battles with men but also in their pursuit of them. In one story, Šarka, one of these women, fought the Slavic hero Dobrynia. She grabbed him by his hair, pulled him off his horse, and put him in her pocket She released him only after he promised to marry her. In most of the stories, the female warriors ended up either dead or married to a hero.

- matriarchal describing a society in which women hold the dominant positions

- patriarchal describing a society in which men hold the dominant positions

Women were considered as equal to men in Slavic culture. That's why they were often called Deve or Devas; means "goddesses" before Christianity. -- 14:59, 2 April 2013‎ 109.182.80.19


109.182.80.19 -- We have articles on The Maidens' War and Albanian sworn virgins, but I'm not sure how your comments tend towards improvbement of this article. AnonMoos (talk) 15:33, 2 April 2013 (UTC)


Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 15:20, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Well then you should delete ALL upper discussion too... Some of them said that "Herodotus was a liar" and "Amazons lived in Africa" and other claims. Dual standards eh? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.182.80.19 (talk) 23:13, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Not really, because none of them have been deleted yet, including yours, and this advisory note applies to them all just as well.Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Not a proper place for the tag. This is discussing information about what is or could be added to the article, not forum like questions about who their favorite character on a show is. Dream Focus 23:35, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Actually, it is the perfectly proper place for the tag. The above comment makes several uncited assertions generally discussing the article topic; as they are uncited and possibly controvertible or point of view assertions or speculations, they are worthless for purposes of improving the article. This is what the rules say can be deleted, not just questioning "who their favorite character on a show is:. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 17:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Split off lists

Split section Amazons#Lists off into a separate article, entitled List of legendary and mythological Amazons

I suggest that the section be split off to allow better presentation of the content, with clearer layout. It would also make this "Amazons" article have a better size, and have a better presentation layout. -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 00:37, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

  • I don't see any reason for that. A 46k article isn't that long. The list isn't big or intrusive. Easier to have it here, where you can scroll through it when reading through the main article. Dream Focus 07:04, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Concur with Dream Focus JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:39, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Against split at this point. Concur with Dream Focus & JeepdaySock thus far.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 17:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I found it a bit jarring, but only because lists of this sort come at the end of articles. Moving it to the end would be an alternative to splitting.--llywrch (talk) 20:48, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
  • In fact, such a separate list page has existed before, titled List of Greek mythological Amazons, and was eventually changed to a redirect to the present section. Apparently it was seen as superfluous. I'd leave it as it is for now, but I hope I'll be adding a list of Amazon names attested in vase paintings only sometime in the near future. If it comes out long enough, the suggestion may become worth reconsidering. But presently I see no pressing need for the split. Phlyaristis (talk) 21:11, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Pretty clear concensus not to split. Op47 (talk) 18:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

One Breasted Archers

I am less interested in the etymology of the word Amazon and more in the history of female archery and this belief that Amazons were superior archers because they were one-breasted. I understand that we have a handful of ancient Greek scholars who popularized this notion but it makes no sense whatsoever. Around the world and throughout recorded history there have been plenty of female archers who've never had to resort to self-mutilation. Indeed, we have world-class Olympian athletes right now who are able to shoot a bow and arrow just fine with two breasts. Had the ancient Greeks never heard of of breast guards? Or, as I suspect, but have no evidence to back it up, did the term simply come first and scholars of the day invented this idea in order to support Hellanicus of Lesbos claim that the word means "without breast"? Again, I have no evidence to back up it up but it is almost impossible (at least here in the West) to talk about the history of female archery and not have someone bring up this bizarre idea that one-breasted archers are some how superior. Xenomorph erotica (talk) 23:19, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I have just listened to Radio Four's Start the Week where Adrienne Mayor stated that the breast myth is just that and that there is zero evidence for it, and zero artwork that shows female archers with only one breast. Given that this article includes the claim with zero citations, I removed it and reworded with extra cites. With good sources, I suppose more details of the myth could be added with sources, but the current wording was simply misleading. -84user (talk) 21:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Images?

Is there any particular reason why the Pierre-Eugene-Emile Hebert sculpture is included as an image in this article? Not offense to the photographer, but it's rather blurry and not all that great of a photo. There are plenty of other depictions of Amazons in Commons:Category:Amazons. - Themightyquill (talk) 11:32, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

No reference to Calafia and her black amazons?

"Calafia is a warrior queen who ruled over a kingdom of Black women living on the mythical Island of California." See also Etymology of California. --73.165.134.189 (talk) 23:02, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Clete & Clonie

There seems to be confused sources outside of wikipedia that it was either Clonie or Clete that was one of the twelve followers. I think some information Clete is greatly needed to confirm her identity if she either came upon hearing Troy was being liberated or she was actually in the company of twelve. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.11.51.217 (talk) 01:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

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Famous Viking Warrior Was a Woman

News story here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/09/viking-warrior-woman-archaeology-spd/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.100.245.70 (talk) 01:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

A stronger connection should be implied between Amazons and Indo-Iranians

There seems to be a vibe coming from this article that Amazons were just some orientalist fantasy and no such people ever actually existed. This is misleading. The Amazons clearly were connected to Scythians and similar (probably Indo-Iranian) steppe Indo-Europeans at the time.

Amazonian warrior women were not simple myth, there remained a high-ratio of female-to-male kurgan burials within early Indo-Iranian cultural regions even while male graves mostly predominated in more Westward Indo-European cultures. The Scythians were known for stories about warrior women and this was not just a myth or misinterpretation trading Greeks picked up at the Sea of Azov - multiple references have been made to separate Indo-Iranian tribes that practiced "open-entry" patriarchies (Herodotus on the Issedones: "And the women have equal rights with the men") and this may have in some cases extended to participation in warfare. In fact it did. The Massagetae had a female warrior queen named Tomyris by the Greeks, the corpses of unusually tall to towering women over 6ft tall have been found in parts of ancient Persia, Siberia and Central Asia dating back over 4000 years, women fought as troops during the Sassanid Empire, in the Tashtyk culture - a mixed Europoid/Mongoloid people of predominantly Indo-European lineage who were possibly the Yenisei Kyrgyz- numerous burials of what are likely female warriors have been uncovered.

The article should be rewritten to sound more neutral and with less paragraph-ending snipes of undue skepticism.

MybanisfinallyoverPleasedontbanmeagain (talk) 10:22, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

@MybanisfinallyoverPleasedontbanmeagain: Do you have any sources to back up those claims or do you expect readers to take your word for it? Kleuske (talk) 10:25, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
@Kleuske You are as rude as you are ignorant. Read Adrienne Mayor -- already cited in article. Her book is full of detailed information and references. Historians now full accept the historical existence in Amazons; there no longer is any doubt outside the fringe. This may be one of the worst articles on Wiki. As the warning says, it needs be completely redone. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:A090:B40E:2DAF:B75D (talk) 08:14, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
@2600:1702:28E0:EE0:A090:B40E:2DAF:B75D: If you consider it "rude" to ask for sources if none are mentioned, Wikipedia may not be the project for you. Calling people "ignorant" if they do so, constitutes a personal attack, which is very much frowned upon, so please don't do that. If you want to improve the article, feel free to do so, but, please, do include your sources. Thanks. Kleuske (talk) 12:52, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Maybe you need to read the comments again -- he does cite his source: Adrienne Mayor. Her book is the foremost authority on this topic in the world today. It was indeed already cited in the article, but maybe you missed that in your haste to attack him with your comment "Do you have any sources to back up those claims or do you expect readers to take your word for it?" That was extremely rude, uncalled for, disgraceful and yes, you are ignorant -- or you would have known about Mayor's work -- and makes you guilty of personal attack, which indeed is very much frowned on. As you are totally out of line with your comments, I suggest Wikipedia is not the place for you.
For the record, speaking as an authority on the topic, I agree this is a terrible article and it should be redone. But I certainly would not waste my time on it, and given the sad nature of Wikipedia and character of the people contributing it, I doubt any other expert would either. If anyone is actually interested, all they need to do is read Mayor's book. 2600:1702:28E0:EE0:EC4F:5A33:7A63:91DD (talk) 08:35, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


At some point, the Amazon myth received reinforcement from Scyths or Sarmatians, but the myth occurred in an early form at a time when the Russian Steppes were beyond the geographic range of the Greeks, and most assumed that the Amazons lived in a remote region of Anatolia. And before the 8th century BC, it's probable that the Scyths were still located basically east of the Caspian, where they would have been FAR out of the geographical knowledge of the Greeks of that time... AnonMoos (talk) 15:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

Repated text

The article has several passages that are repeated twice or more. --Jorge Stolfi (talk) 21:14, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Speciation

So are they humans or not? Because in some modern media, they're treated as if they're a different species, or a human subspeciesBooger-mike (talk) 22:13, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Lede edit of January 2021

Hi! I am NO expert on Classical Greece and Rome, although quite knowledgeable, as i think, most of you are. I am afraid, we might have to wait a long time for an expert. Thus, i just made a BOLD step and reduced the text a little. I also added new references. These are mainly news outlets and popular history sites. Secondary sources - as requested - and sufficient for now and the rather casual nature of the header text.

I left the original text and the refs in an Editorial tag. In case you wish to restore the old text, please leave some thoughts to why. i am looking forward to constructive cooperation. All the best Wikirictor 23:22, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Hi! The huge Mythology paragraph should be reduced and only the plot of the various narratives be presented - and shown into a new section - before the authors. All the best Wikirictor 10:22, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi! I have checked out the article in some other languages. These are way shorter and concentrate on the essentials, without trying to list - and elaborate on - every possible source (ancient and modern), list every possible queen's name and every possible computer game, that features Amazones. At the moment we have an article length of 79,794 bytes (as compared to DE = 47516, ES = 56348, F = 43169, NL = 26081, I = 28430). I intend to merge Historical background and In historiography (currently edited out) and further reduce Various authors and chroniclers and Modern legacy. PLEASE let me know, if you disagree or you have other ideas...I have removed plenty of low quality and original research sources. I think the links to text libraries like Tuft University are necessary and great, though. They should just be a bit more ordered. All the best Wikirictor talk • contribs 21:01, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Amazon women V. Amazon river?

Orellana around 1541 thought his battle with Tapuyas savages were directed by 'Amazonians', statuesque women of the tribe. Thus was born the name of the river and its land. Question mark?? 49.147.194.6 (talk) 00:00, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

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