Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Archive 74

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Song titles

According to WP:MOSMUSIC, song names are to be enclosed in quotation marks as they are in the La bohème article. Is there some reason why arias like "O mio babbino caro" are italicized? Copana2002 (talk) 01:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually in the OP format guidelines it says to use italics in all cases. I've always found that odd (a) because few other editorial styles do that (Grove uses single quotes 'O mio babbino caro', UK style) and (b) to people unfamiliar with the subject it looks confusing when they appear in conjunction with opera titles which are also (rightly) italicized. I tend to ignore it now and use "" instead. The only exception would be when the aria itself is the subject of the article. But even there, Grove tends not to italicize nor use quotes when its the actual title of an entry. Voceditenore (talk) 15:18, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
Oops, must have missed that on the guidelines page. Thanks for the clarification. :) Copana2002 (talk) 15:59, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Jessie Bartlett Davis

There are issues with her birth year. Sources vary. Does anyone have any reliable sources to back up the date? Her obituary in the New York Times said that she was 46 years old when she died which puts the year at 1859 or 1858. Another book says she was born in 1866. I have started a discussion on the article's talk page. Royalbroil 02:00, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Chiaroscuro (music)

I just stumbled across this article. I'm not familiar with the term chiaroscuro outside of art, so I'm not sure if this is accurate. Grove gives this as the name of a British ensemble and the name of a record company but does not define it in terms of singing. That being said, this definition seems like a reasonable application taken from art (with the exception of calling bel canto a technique), so it could be true.Nrswanson (talk) 16:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

It's mentioned in On the Art of Singing by Richard Miller, Oxford University Press, 1996, p. 10: [1]. There's also a whole chapter on it in Bel Canto: A History of Vocal Pedagogy by James Stark, University of Toronto Press, 2003, pp. 33-56: [2]. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 17:18, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I didn't think to look in Stark and I have a copy. Should have thought of that. I have only purused through it though. It's on my to read list. Nrswanson (talk) 17:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Time to archive?

Is it time to archive guys? Some of these discussions are pretty old and way over. I'm not really sure how our archive system works or I would do it myself.Nrswanson (talk) 18:49, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's just done by hand. Please don't archive the Puccini section though - I'm using that to keep track of what needs to be done. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm sure it is done by hand lol. I'm just not sure how to handle the index side of the archiving process. Do we index all of the archives? Also, I wasn't even thinking of archiving the threads like the Puccini ones that are still active.Nrswanson (talk) 20:15, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
I have archived most of them, but if you think they are still needed here for discussion, let me know .. or you can also copy back the discussion you want (pls delete the discussion in the archive page once you copy them here). The archive number is WikiProject Opera: Archive 73 - Jay (talk) 01:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I've moved back the comments/queries section for Some Puccini jobs above. It's needed as it has useful tips comments for those working on it and provides a place for further discussion without cluttering up the list. Also, as a general rule, it's not good to archive only subsections of a discussion. The context becomes lost and it looks like it's the sub-section of a completely different discussion. Re the Puccini clips that have been archived, I'm wondering if it would be better to have a dedicated sub page for the clips if Shoemaker's Holiday wants to keep track of them and indeed to post new ones for discussion. Something like: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Sound files. Then a brief notice could be posted here to alert members of new additions. The sound files and their graphics tend to clutter up the page and add considerable "bytes" to it. What do people think? Best, Voceditenore (talk) 06:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
I agree to have a split section such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Sound files to discuss about audios. Shoemaker's Holiday, if you are ok with it, you can cut/paste all the archived recordings into Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Sound files - Jay (talk) 13:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
As you can see, I've been bold and moved all the sound files and their discussions from archive 73 to this new page: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/Sound files. I'll also add a note at the top of this page to let people know about it. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 14:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Re indexing of the archives The actual Index (Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/archive index) is generated automatically by a bot which passes through to update it. The last time was November 7th. It normally passes through twice a day and updates the index if it finds new material in the archives since its last visit. Occasionally this is delayed by server problems or bugs needing to be fixed. There is also a simple Table of Contents page at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera/archive toc with a summary of the contents of each archive page. That is updated by hand when you archive something, but you needn't list every single topic in it. All XfD's for example, can be just grouped in the Summary as "XfDs", ditto simple announcements about available sources. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 08:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks for taking the time to explain that to me. That was very helpful.Nrswanson (talk) 19:33, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Portal:Opera for month of December 2008 (Related to Puccini)

Please suggest:

I didn’t include Madama Butterfly because it has been published for month of September. Please suggest one of his operas.
  • Composer : Giacomo Puccini
  • Singer: Enrico Caruso or other? Did Puccini have any favorite singers? Or his favorite role creator(s)?
  • Selected picture : <- Any suggestion related to Puccini?
  • Selected audios: Vissi d'arte, O mio babbino caro, O soava fanciulla, and Donna non vidi mai (will publish 3 or 4 famous aria recordings)

Let me know before or on 29th Nov. Thanks - Jay (talk) 13:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I would say La bohème since it will be Christmas time and everyone does La bohème around Christmas.Nrswanson (talk) 13:54, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Can we hold back Donna non vidi mai? It might be useful for a triple Manon (Auber, Massenet, Puccini) set. I should have something from Madame Butterfly ready to go by then. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Sure, let me know once you have got Madame Butterfly's aria ready - Jay (talk) 04:20, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
Guys.. any suggestion for "Singer" and "Selected picture"? Anybody? As for "singer", I have been thinking of Cesira Ferrani (role creator for Mimi and Manon). - Jay (talk) 03:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
Does "opera of the month" mean an article for us to work on, or a completed article to recommend to the larger user base? Boheme seems to be getting a lot of work right now. It could be in pretty good shape by December. Iglew (talk) 22:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The portal is a place for us to display our work, so usually we try and pick articles that are already in good shape or articles that we can improve beforehand. I personally think Boheme is our best shot for several reasons. 1. It's Christmas time and Boheme is a popular opera during the holidays. (at least in the US anyway) 2. Within the last five months we have created six articles on premiere cast members, so this would give those articles more visibility. 3. The article itself has recently had some major improvements and additions. 4. We have great audio for this opera. 5. And well I could keep going but you all get the point.Nrswanson (talk) 23:34, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm all in favour of Boheme as well for the same reasons as Nrswanson. I've just uploaded a bunch of photos that can be added to it. (see section below)Voceditenore (talk) 07:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Now that I understand the concept, I agree that Boheme is a good choice. As long as we're doing Boheme, can someone with more technical wiki knowledge than I address the Henri Murger article? Take a look and you'll see what I mean. If someone else can figure out what to do with all that source material and just leave the initial paragraph in place, I can fill it in and make an appropriate-sized article out of it. Iglew (talk) 09:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

La Boheme Pix

I'm going to be travelling from Nov 25 - Dec 2 so I haven't got time to place these in the article (also it's quite fiddly to add them to the synopsis) with those big links to the sound files. I'll post the pix here and perhaps someone can add whichever ones they think are useful. Note they are all public domain in the US.

Voceditenore (talk) 07:57, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks so much! I went ahead and added them in. If anyone wants to tweak feel free.Nrswanson (talk) 08:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

More Puccini Pix - some possibly for the featured photo on the portal

All of these are public domain. These two might be interesting for the portal:

These are some further Fanciulla pix that I haven't been able to add to the article yet. Perhaps someone could add them as I'll be away for the next week:

Voceditenore (talk) 08:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion based on our discussion above

However, they are not final yet. Feel free to give suggestion, especially Selected Picture. - Jay (talk) 12:35, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Great, ok it settle than. I will update the portal on 30th Nov - Jay (talk) 07:10, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

The Io Passion

For all you Birtwistle fans I thought you might want to check out this new article on The Io Passion. A new editor created it. He did a nice job but the article structure needs to be reformated to our usual format. This might be a good recruitment oppertunity as well.Nrswanson (talk) 03:39, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed the "roles" table and changed date format. I am not familiar with Birtwistle's operas, what does it mean by "also Hera.. also Lo etc"? - Jay (talk) 06:18, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
I've done some disambiguating and have relocated wikilinks from the text to the table (NB the text may be a copyvio). Jay - those "alsos" mean that one of the women characters also appears as Io and another also appears as Hera - the opera (as I understand it) shifts between modern and ancient times - Birtwistle is really into myth and ritual. I don't know this work, but have seen three Birtwistle operas so far and have another one (Down by the Greenwood Side) coming up early next year. --GuillaumeTell 16:53, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Two additions

I just added two singers to the current list of Puccini role creators. Their articles already existed but were in really bad shape. I've put in some significant work but I thought the rest of you might like to contribute too. The singers are: Cesira Ferrani whose article was previously a two sentence stub (pretty bad for the original Manon and Mimi) and Antonio Pini-Corsi ( creator of Ford in Falstaff and Schaunard in La bohème) whose article was a stub and full of wrong information.Nrswanson (talk) 06:36, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

A really cool tool

I just discovered this article tracking program that enables you to see how many hits any article on wikipedia is getting each day. FYI, if your article is fairly new it might not work yet. Thought you might all enjoy a peek at your own article's track records. :-)Nrswanson (talk) 03:06, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Dustin Lee Hiles

This article about a Canadian opera singer is being discussed at articles for deletion if any members wish to comment. Voceditenore (talk) 16:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Paul Potts album is an Opera Recording?

Paul Pott album is being put under "opera recordings" category. I do not want to remove it, but I don’t think his album can be labeled as “opera recording”. What do you guys think? - Jay (talk) 17:54, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

This question strikes me as a can of worms that's going to lead to controversy if there isn't a pretty solid definition of "opera". There's a whole class of singers who the general public thinks of as "opera" even though they sing little or no actual opera -- Andrea Bocelli, Charlotte Church, Russell Watson, etc. Paul Potts belongs with that group. What do we do with the rest of them? (I notice there's an article for "Operatic pop". Maybe that's the answer?) Iglew (talk) 08:56, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Iglew re the can of worms. It seems to me that the category, if used at all, should not be based on the singer, i.e. is he/she an "opera singer", but rather on what is being sung. For me, the cat should have only recordings of complete operas, highlights of a particular opera, and perhaps collections of opera arias and duets. But in the latter case they would have to constitute the majority of tracks. The cat can't be evaluative. When a Placido Domingo recording consists entirely of pop songs and ballads, well, it's not an opera recording. But if Paul Potts has a bash at recording the complete Il trovatore, well then it's an opera album. Voceditenore (talk) 18:06, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
GuillaumeTell, I agree with you for now, it is because nobody writes his other albums just yet. Most of his album articles we have right now are the collection of Christmas in Vienna. I added "opera recording" under his category for his future album articles. It applies to other opera singers too like Te Kanawa and all. - Jay (talk) 14:32, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Kathleen Battle discography

Her list of recordings has getting longer. I moved the list to a new article and added a redirection link (see also) in her main article.

“

See also: Kathleen Battle discography

”

Feel free to add anything at the introduction. I just wrote something brief. - Jay (talk) 18:32, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Afd of List of operas by Handel

This article is currently up for an AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of operas by Handel.Nrswanson (talk) 11:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Some Puccini jobs

Feel free to add to the list and cross off bits as they are done... Voceditenore (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

  • Manon Lescaut
    • Has quotes in the opening section but no sources given for them.
  • La bohème
    • Performance history needs work
    • Could use some expansion on the relationship to Murger's original
    • Needs link to the libretto (if available)
    • Needs a music analysis section.
    • Needs more images
  • Madama Butterfly
    • Not bad on the whole but has some "citation needed tags", including one in the lead paragraph.
    • Noted arias section is now largely redundant to Synopsis which has the arias intergrated into it.
  • Il trittico
    • Whole article is completely unreferenced and largely personal opinion
  • Suor Angelica
    • Unreferenced apart from ext. link to libretto hosted on amateur site
    • Very limited performance history
    • No recordings
  • Il tabarro
    • Unreferenced apart from ext. link to notes on libretto hosted on amateur site
    • Very limited performance history
  • Gianni Schicchi
    • Lacks proper references, and inline external links should be made into references, added to external links, or removed as appropriate.
    • The performance history is rather sparse
    • No recordings
    • In popular culture needs to be gotten rid of. One bit belongs in performance history (the new Woody Allen production for LA Opera) and the other bit about "O mio babbino caro" can be pruned and then added to the noted arias section.
  • La rondine
    • Unreferenced and probably largely untrue statement about "alternative" ending used by Marta Domingo.
    • Synopsis plagiarised from Opera Glass

Comments/Queries

  • Le Villi: for the recordings see it:Le Villi (en.wiki has also a wrong quote: I tried to point out the problem in the talk and writing on this project page, but without success)
  • Manon Lescaut: exactly, what quotes are you talking about?
Despite all the warnings, Puccini proceeded. "Manon is a heroine I believe in and therefore she cannot fail to win the hearts of the public. Why shouldn’t there be two operas about her? A woman like Manon can have more than one lover." He added, "Massenet feels it as a Frenchman, with powder and minuets. I shall feel it as an Italian, with a desperate passion."Voceditenore (talk) 22:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
See it:Manon Lescaut, nota 1. Since I haven't the book, I cannot be sure that the first part of the quotation doesn't start at p. 26. No idea about the author of the traslation. --Al Pereira(talk) 23:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
  • La bohème: for the link to the libretto, see it:La bohème --Al Pereira(talk) 21:15, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
  • La rondine: it isn't an "alternate ending", but the third version. The version normally performed is the first. No need of quotation, every recent book on Puccini talks about the differences among the 3 versions. --Al Pereira(talk) 15:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I know about the three versions, but in the third version does Puccini (and the libretto) actually specify that Magda commits suicide by walking into the sea? That's what happened in the Marta Domingo production and is what the WP article is talking about. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 15:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
I understand (a metaphorical suicide.... or a fish instead of a swallow :D ), but this seems to have to do with the stage direction, not with the libretto. Directors often change the plot. Anyway, the paragraph isn't clear, and maybe it could be removed --Al Pereira(talk) 17:16, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Yes, there are three versions to the ending of the opera by Puccini but commits suicide by walking into the sea was Marta's version. I have deleted the part about Puccini's version and adding reference to Marta Domingo’s Reconceptualization of “Rondine” in La rondine. - Jay (talk) 14:09, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
  • La fanciulla del West: I think the "other influences" section is stable now. The ALW stuff has been reduced to neutral and verifiable facts, and both paragraphs are now referenced. Iglew (talk) 06:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
  • La bohème: Discussion of Boheme's relation to Murger's original would have to account for Barrière's adaptation for the stage (which preceded the novelization of the stories). The page on Murger's novel also needs some significant clean-up and fleshing out. The page on Murger himself is very peculiar, consisting mostly of a long PD article which does have some interesting information but really isn't a wikipedia article about Murger at all. The talk page has some discussion of fixing it, but it looks like any effort was abandoned. Iglew (talk) 06:52, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I added a section about Murger to the Boheme article, and I did a major reconstruction of the article on Murger's novel. If someone wants to follow behind me and clean it up, I'd welcome that, particularly since there's some technical stuff I didn't know how to do. The article on Murger himself also needs significant technical work; see talk page there. Iglew (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
I added what was in Grove. It seems that Puccini and the libretists took and left things from both the play and the novel in addition to adding some of their own material.Nrswanson (talk) 09:37, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
Your version looks better than mine, thanks. Having once studied the issue in some detail, I actually have a pretty thorough idea of the genesis of the libretto, which does indeed include parts from the book, parts from the play, and original invention, all mixed up into one. Paradoxically, that actually made it harder to write a summary for Wikipedia, as I had to continually fight the temptation to either go into way too much detail or to insert my own personal interpretations. (Perhaps some day I'll write a non-Wiki article on the subject where I can indulge both temptations....)
At this point I wonder if the next step for improving the Wiki article would be to remove even more of my stuff. The allusions to the librettists' note, copyright of the play, and Mimi/Francine now serve only to hint at something without following through, so maybe it's better to just cut it altogether. If someone wants to do that, I won't be offended. Perhaps it would help if someone unfamiliar with all the background could read the current article and identify what comes across as disjointed and confusing.
I would quibble with your/Grove's nuance on two minor points: (1) Your summary makes it sound like Murger wrote the play with Barrière's help. In fact Barrière wrote it and Murger's role was to sign off on it (sometimes reluctantly). (2) Puccini's "rebuttal" of Leoncavallo in the Corriere is disingenous at best, as the correspondence shows. This is discussed in Groos & Parker, which is online at Google books (pp.31-34). But these are minor quibbles, and again I may be venturing farther into personal interpretation than is warranted for Wikipedia. Iglew (talk) 02:11, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the helpful feedback. I addressed the first point on the nuance in the article. As for the second point, I am not that familiar with the source material so I only presented Grove's take on it. You are obviously more knowledgable than I am on the subject. However, I think the current content in the article is fine. There is obviously some room for differing opinions and interpretation here and leaving some ambiguity gets the reader curious without confusing them or leading them to a certain conclusion on an issue with multiple perspectives. Further, I think the composing the opera section is illuminating on the subject. It seems that the libretists were constantly trying to immitate the play (not that they didn't have some original ideas either) whereas as Puccini was more interested in adding more from the novel and/or his own original material. Just look at where they were fighting with each other. Of course that's my personal take on the evidence so I can't say that in the article.07:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
The to-do list says Boheme needs a music analysis section. I'm not sure what this would entail. Can someone point me to a good music analysis section for comparison? Most operas I look up don't have one, and on the few that do it's tagged as unreferenced or too much like a personal essay. But I'm not sure how it could be otherwise. Wouldn't any musical analysis be subjective by definition? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iglew (talk • contribs) 10:26, 24 November 2008 (UTC)
Obviously we can't do a musical analysis of our own because that would be original research. However, what we can do is take what others (by that I mean music scholars/historians) have written about the music and present it in a coherent way. Topics of discussion could be musical motifs, orchestration, critical reaction, etc. Not many opera articles have a detailed musical analysis section and right now an example of a well crafted one escapes me. I usually try to put a little something together as in Griselda (Vivaldi) which I just created. But I think we could go a lot deeper in Boheme.Nrswanson (talk) 10:45, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Le Villi and the "narrator"

After I added the "Selected recordings" in Le Villi, Al Pereira sent me a message (copy/paste from his message sent to me),

"…maybe it should be pointed out that the opera hasn't a Narrator as a character and that it's a mistake to declaim those verses, since Fontana wrote them only for the reader. The problem is that it doesn't exist any Narrator in the score and in the libretto. See [3], [4] and [5] - Al Pereira"

What makes me confused now is, if the narrator is not part of Puccini’s idea, or not in the libretto, how come the part is there since the first performance on 31 May 1884? I have asked Al Pereira to discuss about this in here. - Jay (talk) 16:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the narrator and his narration do appear in copies of the libretto, e.g. [6]. However, Michele Girardi in Puccini: His International Art, p. 28 [7] claims that Fontana had originally intended the narration as 'programme notes' for the audience, not to be spoken stage. (In those days, the audience brought the libretto into the performance.)
But if there was a narrator in the early performances, then it's a moot point what Fontana had intended. That's how it was and is performed. See also [8]. Does anyone have a reference for there having been a narrator on stage for the premiere performances of the various versions? If so, then Girardi's views could go in a footnote. Voceditenore (talk) 18:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The point is very simple: the narrator doesn't appear in the libretto. That's all. I mean: it doesn't appear in the real libretto, not in a joke-libretto edited for a web (or for a CD), which cannot be considered a serious source (and I'm really surprised that these kind of sources are used on wikipedia). It isn't a Girardi's view because it isn't a view but a fact. Obviously, I know the original librettos. If you go to the Italian wikisource, you can find two different versions of the libretto (and I mean the old, original Ricordi libretto). The verses appear beginning with the second version (Turin 1884) and in this libretto it isn't mentioned any narrator, neither in the front cover nor in the pages of the two "intermezzi sinfonici". BTW, this is absolutely normal: it would be strange if the verses were played, still more in a libretto by Fontana, since he asserted that the libretto for the composer and the libretto for the audience had to be different things (see In Teatro: I quoted this on it.wiki). --Al Pereira(talk) 04:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
I've added a referenced explanatory paragraph re the "narrator" to the roles section and removed it from that table (but left it the recordings because there is one in those). Hopefully this should make things clearer. I also caused immense hilarity on the part of Al when I changed the premiere conductor's first name to Giacomo instead of Arturo. That I had got from the article on Le Villi at the Comitato Nazionale Celebrazioni Pucciniane, where they must have made a Freudian slip. Nevermind, he fixed it.;-) He also fixed my own Freudian slip when I called Fontana... er... Forzano. (I have Forzano on my brain because I'm working on a draft article for him). I also added a performance history section and clarified some other stuff. Voceditenore (talk) 13:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I had immense hilarity seeing what the Comitato Nazionale (!) wrote in their site, even if it didn't surprise me. Seriously talking, we need to trust only some sources, and maybe, when it is possible, to verify even these best sources. With Puccini, on-line sources shouldn't be used, with the only exception of www.puccini.it (I think that I found some very minor error even there, but it's a serious site). The first source should be Schickling's Catalogue. I know that it isn't available on the web and that probably none of you own it, but this Catalogue is the result of the most scientific reaseach about Puccini's works. Then, there are the Epistolaries: when it exists a letter, the reference should be to the letter itself, not to the secondary literature which quotes it. Same things with regard to the scores (editions, autographs) and the librettos. Finally, as regards the music of Puccini, do the easiest thing: ask and trust me. I have many sources, as well as direct knowledge, and can compare them. --Al Pereira(talk) 05:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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