Wikipedia:WikiProject Figure Skating/Assessment/Yuna Kim

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Yuna Kim[edit]

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Nominator(s): Figureskatingfan (talk)

Yuna Kim (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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I am nominating this article for A-Class review because the subject is important to figure skating and because I think it's ready to go through the very first A-Class review in the Figure Skating WikiProject. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:01, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Henni147[edit]

I'm happy to join this A-class review from Sunday onward. First notes:

  • The table templates for world records, programs, and competitive highlights look good already. I will take a closer look at the infobox and detailed results section later.
  • The external links section needs some brush-up, both the list of weblinks and navigation boxes. I will list the most important issues later.
Kim's webpage is broken and a brief goggle yields nothing, so I removed it. Does anyone know if she still has a webpage at a different URL? I also removed some of the older/archived and redundant items. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:41, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe she has a website anymore, no. Artemisia (talk) 21:19, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My focus in this review will be on:

  1. the adaptation of the revamped Wiki figure skating style and terminology guide
  2. linking and text/image formatting
  3. sourcing and formatting of the references/inline citations
  4. copyright and license check (incl. images)

I will also take a look at the content and writing, but I recommend to have another reviewer with deeper knowledge about Yuna's career as well as a copy-editor for articles written in British English (as English is only my third language and I am more familiar with American English). Henni147 (talk) 17:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Quick update: I want to finish the revamp of our project page and the assessment guidelines first before starting this review, so it may take another day. I hope that is okay. Henni147 (talk) 14:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Review start: Finally, I got the time to start my A-class review! First of all, I want to express my appreciation for your fantastic work! I crossread the article, and it is some really fine work. I decided to tackle the structure issue first because that may come with the most work to fix:

Yuna Kim
Figure skating career
Competitive2001–2014
Professional2014–2019
Retired8 June 2019
  • Important note on "retirement": As per WP:FS TERM, the term "retirement" should only be used for skaters who officially retired from both competitive and professional figure skating, and are no longer performing at skating events at all. If my information is correct, Kim's last skating performance was at the 2019 All That Skate, so the correct infobox entry should look as shown on the right. Please make sure to follow this terminology convention in the lead section and prose part of the article as well.
    • I respectfully have to disagree with this. Kim has never stated that she has retired from professional skating; we should not use a retirement date we cannot verify. It's quite possible she could continue to participate in shows in the future. All of the sources state that she retired from competitive skating in 2014 – I believe that we should follow their lead. Artemisia (talk) 15:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Artemisia; there are no sources that support the assertion that Kim is done with professional skating. I'll keep the date open for now. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Section headings:
    • Change "Competitive career" to "Competitive skating career" and "Show skating career" to "Professional skating career". Make sure that the "Competitive skating career" only covers events from the first skating competition onward, starting in 2001, and move everything else into the "Early life" section, which should focus on the skater's family background and how the skater got into figure skating.
      • We actually discussed renaming the show skating career section previously. The issue is that she began participating in shows while she was still an amateur. But if you think a different name would be more fitting, I'm open to changing it. Artemisia (talk) 15:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That often happens now: ever since the rules have become more lax about amateur/professional status, skaters (and other athletes) have started their professional careers while still competing internationally. I agree with the heading changes, so done. I'm also done with the restructuring you suggested.Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Turn the "Coaches" section into a sub-section of the "Competitive skating career" or merge its content into the prose (recommended). The prose part of the article should not be disrupted by a statistics section that only contains a bulleted list.
Moved "Coaches" section to the end of the "Competitive skating career". I disagree about changing the bulleted list into prose because the content is already in other sections and because it'd be boring to present it that way. Is there a policy that states your assertion about bulleted lists? To be honest, the only reason the list exists is because it was already there when I began working on it, although I added the refs. I'd be okay with removing it, since the info is redundant. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Merge the sections "Skating technique and training" and "Artistry" to "Skating technique and style".
      Note: NEVER use the term "artistry" or derivatives anywhere when talking about figure skating, with exception of crucial direct quotes, particularly because it is one of the most abused terms by figure skating media. Note that the ISU has never used it in any of their official documents themselves. Make sure to clearly break down and describe the skater's skills with the technically correct terms: (1) carriage and dancing skills, (2) choreography and composition skills, (3) skills in (technical) music interpretation (timing, rhythm, pitch changes ...), (4) projection, narration, and acting skills.
Done moving sections; main articles templates also changed. What you're saying about the term "artistry" is a valid point, one I've never thought of before. Ya learn something new everyday, right? Artemisia is right; making the changes you're suggesting regarding the technical terms. That's something to tackle later on, though, when we focus on those spinoffs. For now, we should leave the titles and content of those articles alone and leave the main article templates as is. I've changed every instance of the word "artistry" in a non-direct quote throughout the article.
This point brings up another issue for me: when the sources don't analyze skating in those terms, isn't it OR to impose them in WP bios? I mean, we can do as much as we can when we paraphrase, but I think only to a point because it can easily delve into placing our opinions into articles. What do you think about that? Ah, something else to potentially add to the project MOS. ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Artemisialufkin @Artemisialufkin @Henni147 I'm rather late to the discussion (hadn't realized it had already begun). My comment is solely in regard to Impact of Yuna Kim. I have no problem with the term "Artistry" there. It is not the main article of Figure Skater Yuna Kim. In general, it makes perfect sense when we're talking about the impact of an athlete and their collaboration with a choreographer to be using the term "artistry". It's a term that's indeed used by media, has made its way to common parlance with the figure skating fandom, and for a cultural icon like, she's indeed contributed to Korean culture and arts, that has been discussed in at least one of the articles.
Which reminds me, there was an exhibit where a major artist had painted one of her performances. I need to go find it and add that to the relevant article. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:19, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Editor120918756, @Artemisialufkin The discussion about the term "artistry" in figure skating is interesting, but I don't think that it's something we can (and should) resolve here. Since the sources we're using in this bio uses the term, we should also use it here, regardless of our individual preferences. Ed, remember that we can't use a painting if it isn't free. I'd like to see it, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:39, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • I recommend to bundle the three sections "Impact on figure skating", "Olympic ambassador", and "Media image and impact" as follows:
      Main section title "Legacy and impact" with the sub-sections: (.1) "Impact on figure skating", (.2) "Olympic ambassadorship", (.3) "Media image and impact".
    • I recommend to turn "Personal life" into "Personal life and education" and move the related content from the "Early life" section here. This helps to have a better chronology of events at the beginning of the article and to better distinguish between public and private activities.
  • Detailed results: During the FLC review of Hanyu's career achievements, we were instructed to remove all tables with results prior to the first international junior season. In this case, remove all domestic results in the 6.0 System.

These are my first main perceptions. I will take a more detailed look on the other aspects tomorrow. Henni147 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Artemisialufkin: Thank you very much for the quick changes! I will go through them later one-by-one. Here are some more comments on the article structure:

Yes, thanks so much! I appreciate it, since my schedule this week prevented me from addressing this review before today. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:17, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Table of contents: To keep the TOC at reasonable length, I recommend to add {{TOC limit|3}} after the lead section. I also suggest to skip some of the sub-headings if possible, especially in sections with only one sub-heading (it makes little sense in numeration to have 6.1 when there is no 6.2). You may take a look at the TOC of Hanyu's biography as an example.
  • Show skating career: I agree that this title may fit better in this special case, indeed. The reason why I suggested to use the division "(1) Early life (2) Competitive skating career (3) Professional skating career" is that there is no overlapping but clean transitions from one section to the next, avoiding time jumps and keeping the life/career summary in chronological order. But yes, it might be laborous to merge all the ice show-related content into the competitive skating career section. I don't mind to keep it like this for the time being.
  • Detailed results: Since Yuna has never competed in the +5/-5 GOE System, you can skip that information from the section headings; "Senior level" and "Junior level" should be sufficient. On Hanyu's featured career achievements page, we also used "Junior level" only.

That's it for today. I will tackle the other points of the review tomorrow afternoon. Henni147 (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yuna Kim
Figure skating career
Competitive2001–2014
Professional2014–present

Response to the "retirement" issue: If Kim has not officially announced her retirement from professional skating yet, we should skip the term "retirement" entirely from her article for the time being and use the format on the right for the infobox. Figure skating journalists labelling professional skaters as "retired" has been a very harmful practice for decades. Pro skaters have a hard time marketing their works because many people misinterpret "retirement" as complete retirement from figure skating and longer follow their careers by mistake. Since Wikipedia is one of the first websites that most people use for quick information about a public person, it is our responsibility to work in favor of the skaters and not make their lives harder. This may not be a big issue in the case of Kim, but we should be consistent in our practice.

Note: I finally completed the work on our project page, so I will be able to fully tackle this A-class review from tomorrow onward. Henni147 (talk) 19:57, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I didn't see this until just now, after my comments and changes about retirement above. I like this idea; changed now. Again, good points; of course, this is one of the attempts to keep the sport elitist and Western, but that's a whole other issue. This attempt in sports in general is something that's in opposition to the values of Wikipedia, something I personally believe we should support as we write about skaters. We've already done that with the proposal change in referring to female skaters as "women" rather than "ladies", years before the sport made the change. Another way is putting up Kim's bio as our project's first A-class assessment. Ah, but I go off-topic. Take your time with continuing the review; I have other things to tackle, too. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:25, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Apqaria[edit]

I am glad to join this project. While I am very familiar with Yuna's career, I want to focus in my review on the article's contents. I will try to go through it in detail starting this weekend to see how the info matches the references included in the article. Hope this will help even if a little for this project. Apqaria (talk) 23:10, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have started my review and here are some points I found till now:

  • For consistency, in the lead mention the years in which she won the Grand Prix Final like other championships
Done. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • The following paragraph in the lead has redundant information. I think it is enough to have the second sentence only

She is the first female skater ever to win every major international competition, namely, the Olympic Games, the World Championships, the Four Continents Championships, and the Grand Prix Final. She is also the first figure skater ever to complete a Super Slam, having won every major senior and junior competition.

They're slightly different achievements so I've left it for now. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Super Slam by definition is winning every major senior and junior international competition which includes the Olympic Games, the World Championships, the Four Continents Championships, and the Grand Prix Final so they are not different achievements.
They are different achievements. The first says that she was the first female skater to win every major senior competition, while the second says that she was the first overall skater to win every major senior and junior competition. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also think the link to the Super Slam should go directly to the Super Slam section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Slam_(figure_skating)#Super_Slam) instead of the overall Grand Slam page Apqaria (talk) 22:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In 2010, Philip Hersh reported that when Kim was 7 years old, her family struggled to pay for her skating lessons.

Removed. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I saw this reference used when mentioning info about Yuna's parents but I don't see why since it doesn't have much about that and I see the other reference accompanying it is enough to be used.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110822030418/http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2089091,00.html

I've left it in as it says her mother attended all her practices, which isn't explicitly stated in the other source. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • This reference no longer exist, should be marked as dead

https://www.ifsmagazine.com/yuna-kim-riding-a-golden-wave/

Done. Artemisia (talk) 21:07, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apqaria (talk) 22:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Apqaria I am pretty sure I'd asked this to @Artemisialufkin or someone else (on a different website) once, and they clarified these discrepancies come from the concept of "Korean age". Editor120918756 (talk) 09:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it's due to the Korean age system. She was five when she began skating. Artemisia (talk) 09:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Artemisialufkin I can no longer crawl through Yuna's website on archive.org for whatever reason. I'd added the personal statements of her favorite jumps from there, but can no longer find the comment on the wiki page, but I guess the reference no longer exists anyway. Editor120918756 (talk) 09:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification Apqaria (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Apqaria, @Artemisialufkin here are my feelings about "Korean age" : I think we should follow the source. Since it's unclear due to how Korean culture counts ages, we should add, "According to...", which I have done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:47, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Figureskatingfan Her age was actually confirmed by her website. I think it was in the article at some point but it must have been removed. Artemisia (talk) 17:10, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Artemisialufkin, then we should add it as a source, done. The website is dead, so I don't think we should add it in her infobox or in the External sources section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More review points

Done. Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • While reading the "2006–2007 season: Senior debut and World medal" section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuna_Kim#2006%E2%80%932007_season:_Senior_debut_and_World_medal) I found the article goes too much into the performances and all elements in it and it is making the section quite lengthy and a bit too much of a read. I don't know if this is the case with other sections as well but I advise trying to revise that if possible focusing more on the results and the highlights of the performances only.
  • I noticed that in the Detailed results section, the images are all shown first then the table. Please see the screenshot in the following link (https://imgur.com/a/ctHNXJg)
I am also experiencing this problem. I think it may be an issue with the template. Henni147, do you have any solutions? Artemisia (talk) 11:48, 3 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I see no problem with the images in the Detailed results section. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:50, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it depends on the device screen width used so it might be the reason you can't see it on your device compared to mine. Apqaria (talk) 22:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Apqaria (talk) 22:37, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone, my apologies for how long it's taken me to address comments, and thanks to Apqaria for their assistance. I think that I can keep up now, so looking forward to more comments. We need to address the "very long" tag that was placed on the bio this week, although I'm not sure that this is the correct place, so I'm going to address it on the bio's talk page. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:56, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Apqaria I agree that the 2006-07 section and some others need some trimming. Editor120918756 (talk) 17:26, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully disagree about the length. As I stated in the bio's talk page, its length is comparable to other major athletes' bio, which have just as much (if not more) detail about their careers and scores. Why is it a problem for figure skaters and not for other athletes, hmm? I'm open to ideas about creating new forked articles, though, if there were good suggestions about how to do it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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