Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/No Way Out (2004)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 22:04, 28 October 2008 [1].

No Way Out (2004)[edit]

Nominator(s): User:SRX

This article has been nominated for Featured Article status twice, and failed twice due to prose problems, reliable sources, jargon, fiction, plot, and in-universe, thus not meeting the Featured Article criteria. Since the revisions from the first nomination, and the second nomination, I heavily improve the article with others help as well, current revision. The article now has improved prose to comply with WP:FICTION, WP:PLOT, WP:IN-U, WP:JARGON, and WP:RS, and has improvements based on previous wrestling FAC's.--SRX 02:36, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose—It's not a "quick-fail", which means I believe it's within reach of the requirement for a professional standard of prose in the short time on this list. Please find someone fresh to the article to copy-edit it carefully. Here are some pointers, on random examples from just the top.

  • Compared with for contrasts, not to.
    • Replaced with with.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Outside of—spot the redundant word.
    • Yes I did, removed of.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Watch those long, cumbersome sentences that could be split: "The feud between Lesnar and Goldberg began at the Royal Rumble, WWE's previous pay-per-view event which featured both brands, where Lesnar interfered in the Royal Rumble match, a 30-man battle royal, attacking and eliminating Goldberg from the match." And others.
    • I cut the one you mentioned into two sentences, and I am still seeking to cut others.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove "who was" from previous sentence. There's a slight overuse of "that was", "which was", "who was", which can sometimes be reworded using a different grammatical construction to avoid tedium.
    • Removed who was and I am seeking to replace overuse of those terms.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in which they insulted each other" (not "the" other) ...?
    • Right, replaced "the" with "each"--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Battle royal" sounds like POV.
    • Well it's not because Battle royal is the name of the match.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "front-row ticket". Check for any other double adjectives that might be better hyphenated.
    • Removed, did a search didn't find any except ones like "pre-existing" and "15-man" unless those count?Added.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A storyline was written"—passive voice necessary? You might audit for this—some passives are OK, but only where they avoid cumbersome wording or have some other purpose, such as not needing to state the agent.
    • Removed passive voice and reworded statement.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "tag team match"—link it? (or maybe you did on first occurrence).
    • Yeah it was linked before.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clumsy sentence structure: "Bradshaw performed a high impact forearm attack—called the Clothesline from Hell—on Haas." Why note "Bradshaw performed a high impact forearm "Clothesline from Hell" attack on Haas." Tony (talk) 05:27, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reworded to your suggest, will watch for others like that.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am also seeking to get the article copyedited by new eyes.--SRX 13:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done - Article has (and is) being copyedited by User:Ceoil.--SRX 22:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Tony. I'd be willing to switch to support or maybe neutral if you do what Tony suggested. iMatthew (talk) 11:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC) Weak support - It's gotten better. iMatthew (talk) 15:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well you shouldn't base your vote or decision per other users citing WP:PER. But, I've done Tony's requests.--SRX 14:00, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wikipedia:Per is an essay, not a policy. There are still problems that should be banged out by a non-wrestling fan. Also, I feel like the "Other on-air talent" box disrupts the text when opens. And get rid of the quote, quotes are only supposed to be lines that are 2-3 sentences long. The text can be put into the article. iMatthew (talk) 14:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll also point out here that Tony said those were examples, not that they were the only problems. Suggest you find a copyeditor to satisfy him. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:18, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(@Ealdgyth) I know, I am aware of that, which is what I am seeking a copyedit by a new set of eyes and I am extending Tony's comments by applying them to other problems I see. (@Matt) Well, don't know where you got your info from, MOSQUOTE says nothing on 2-3 lines quotations, but removed it per Ealdgyth.--SRX 14:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also Matt, on my screen, the collapsible box works fine and does not effect the text/images in a major way, it moves them maybe a line down, no big deal that is just your preference.--SRX 22:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Curly quotes are a no-no according to the MOS.
    • Removed.--SRX 14:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise sources look fine, links couldn't be checked with the link checker tool, it's down. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, would appreciate link check once it's back up :)--SRX 14:26, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can do that yourself, the tool is linked right over there on the side of this FAC page... (grins). Ealdgyth - Talk 14:29, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ouch. Okay.--SRX 14:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support' Quite well written and an engaging read. Its comprehensive, insightful and well sourced. I'm not finished yet on a ce pass, but am impressed with the work put into this FA quality article, and hope to see more from the editor(s). Ceoil sláinte

Comments Support - I see some prose work is needed here. Allow me to contribute some thoughts.

  • "At No Way Out 2004, Guerrero won his sole World Championship before his substance abuse related death in 2005." Hyphen before related? Another thing: the last Guerrero mentioned was Chavo. Maybe make it clear that this refers to Eddie.
    • Both Done.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Non-breaking space needed for 11.9 million.
    • Where exactly should it go?--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • It goes between the number of million, but one is now there, so this is now fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Background: "The event featured eight professional wrestling matches involving different wrestlers from pre-existing scripted feuds, plots and storylines." I think this is better: "The event featured eight professional wrestling matches with different wrestlers involved in pre-existing scripted feuds, plots and storylines."
    • Reworded.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After winning a 15-man battle royal (a match in which participants are eliminated until one person remains as the winner, on the January 29, 2004 episode of SmackDown!) Move the second parenthesis to after winner and move the comma.
    • Changed, that came about during the copyedit.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The following week on an episode of Raw, as a result of the rivalry extending between the two programs, the General Manager Steve Austin..." Perhaps remove last the?'
    • Removed.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "front row" still doesn't have a hyphen.
    • I misread Tony's comment, I added it.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commas before and after linked use of Paul Heyman?
  • "The rivalry continued to develop the following week, in which Angle was scheduled to team..." I'd like to when replace in which. When is good to use in cases where time is a factor.
    • Replaced.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Event, Preliminary matches: Photos shouldn't be placed on the left side below second-level headers. Move the big man, either to the right or beside the second paragraph.
    • Hope I did that right.
  • "WWE Tag Team Champions Rikishi and Scotty 2 Hotty (real names needed) defended their titles... Should titles be plural here? Later, it refers to their championship (singular).
    • Can't believe I missed that.--SRX 23:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm at the beginning of the section and will come back later to review the rest. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:07, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "in a move that allowed Rikishi and Hotty retained their championships."
    • You didn't tell me to do anything but I think I got it, reworded --> Rikishi and Hotty to retain..--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • That was the one. Another thing I just noticed: In that sentence, a comma would be preferable to a semi-colon. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done.--SRX 21:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "before throwing him down with a Alabama slam;" Probably should be an.
    • It should. Done.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Main event matches: "Lesnar then attempted to take advantage over the referee's state," More commonly, it would be "take advantage of the referee's state,".
    • True, Done.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Guerrero then kicked the belt out of the ring to avoid the referee from seeing it..."
    • You didn't tell me to do anything, but I think I fixed it, removed the word then'''.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Actually, this hasn't been touched. "to prevent the referee from seeing it" is my preference, but there are a lot of ways it can be improved. I'm just not liking "to avoid the referee from seeing it". Giants2008 (17-14) 18:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Done.--SRX 21:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to pin and win the WWE Championship from Lesnar." Cute play on words, but it doesn't work grammatically. "to pin Lesnar and win the WWE Championship from him." is more like it.
    • I like that cute words :) I reworded it.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aftermath: "on the July 15, 2004 episode of Smackdown!." Exclamation point followed by a period. What does the MoS say on this? I'm really not sure because I don't remember seeing this before.
    • The MoS doesn't really say anything about it, but the exclamation point is part of the show's name and is not their for punctuation purposes.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't get the part on the aftermath of Guerrero's death. The semi-colon doesn't seem right, and the whole thing needs to be rewritten.
    • I reworded that, hopefully it read's better.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reception: I liked the star ratings that the other wrestling pay-per-views had and am disappointed that they aren't in here. Any chance I can change your mind on that? It would help fill out the section, with the DVD not worth more than a sentence.
    • The source that gave stars to the other PPV did not give stars or points to this pay-per-view, but I added the points by IGN to the DVD.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 23 gives the WWE in initials. If it's not too much trouble, I recommend spelling it out like the other WWE citations. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done.--SRX 01:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now refs 1 and 21 are initials only. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I spelled out the initials.--SRX 21:58, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note, on a quick scan, I don't see review of sources or images here; perhaps I missed it? And there's a hidden template in the "Event" section. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:37, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The images and sources were checked in it's second peer review, also can you point out the template?SRX 00:22, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Link to second peer review is here. Giggy performed an image check there. I happened to notice that the source link for the poster goes to the WWE front page, and not to any pages on the event. Perhaps Mr. Fuchs should be called in for an image review. Not sure, but I think Sandy is referring to the template with the announcers and referees. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:34, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed FUR.--SRX 00:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SRX is currently away due to a family emergency, please allow him time to get back to these comments. He will return on October 15. iMatthew (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Spot-check: I'm disappointed to find glitches and stylistic deficiencies so easily as soon as I started at random, somewhere about half-way through.

  • "Heat, the pay-per-view began with a handicap match; a tag team match in which a team of two wrestlers face a team of three." Semicolon is wrong; use a comma or – a dash.
    • Used dash.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the match Hotty attempted to hit Shaniqua, who was lying on her back, with a slap over her chest; however, Shaniqua hit him with her forearm." The logic isn't explicit: do we understand that she "fended off", "preempted" or "thwarted" this action by hitting him ...? The "however" just raises questions as is.
    • Reworded/Fixed.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Next was a singles blindfold match,..."—Possibly a new para? Unsure.
    • No because the first match is short and this one that follows is short and combined makes a good reasonable prose.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The third contest a tag team match, in which ..."—Ungrammatical.
    • Reworded/Fixed.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "High-impact forearm"—Hyphen does make it easier to read, especially for non-experts, and I see that I didn't point this out in my previous examples (where it occurred in one).
    • Added Hyphen.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Longish sentence: "As apart of the storyline, Goldberg immediately jumped over the barricade into the ring, where Lesnar performed a spear, a running shoulder block to Goldberg's stomach, but he recuperated and lifted Lesnar vertically in the air before slamming him down to perform the Jackhammer." Just "; however, he ..." does the trick.
    • Fixed/Reworded.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Once there, Holly slammed Rhyno off the top rope with a superplex, whereas Rhyno eventually hit Holly with a spear that caused Holly to roll out of the ring." "Whereas" doesn't work for me.
    • Fixed.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This kind of narrative description of the performance doesn't need so many sequence links: "afterward", "then". I see "afterwardS" in the previous para, which is better, in any case. I see "During the match" twice in a para. Tony (talk) 04:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Tried to get rid of some of those.--SRX 20:32, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS I didn't make myself explicit that this is just further evidence that the prose is generally not up to standard. I can't yet change my "oppose". Tony (talk) 14:49, 21 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Tried to get rid of some of those"—they were intended as examples of why the whole text needs the scrutiny of fresh eyes. There's a limit to how much you can do now that you're so familiar with it. Do you know how to locate copy-editors in this field? Tony (talk) 07:52, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • It has been copyedited twice, one from this field and one not from this field. But I will seek new copyeditors.--SRX 10:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support - Looks good for the most part. As Tony said, a copyedit is needed. some examples:
  • All wrestlers belonged to the SmackDown! brand –a storyline division in which WWE assigned its employees to a different program, the other being Raw. - Is the en dash spaced, or unspaced?
    • It has a non breaking space, or unless it's in the wrong position.--SRX 21:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That Thursday on SmackDown!, the storyline between Guerrero and Lesnar was enhanced when they began to brawl after an in-ring interview segment. - "To" → "a".
    • Changed.--SRX 21:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • After Sunday Night Heat, the pay-per-view began with a handicap match- a tag team match in which a team of two wrestlers face a team of three. - Change the hyphen to an endash/emdash.
    • Done.--SRX 23:00, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the fight, Mysterio performed a 619 on Guerrero (at the time positioned on the second ring rope) and hit him in the face with both legs while using the ropes for leverage, leading to an attack by Paez on Guerrero, Sr. - "619"?
    • In that sentence I am explaining a 619, the move in which he kicked him in the face.--SRX 21:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

–Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 16:44, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Text squeeze and hidden text in a template at "Preliminary matches" section; can't that template be moved down (to avoid text squeeze) and unhidden? And the dab link checker in the tool box shows six dab links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I fixed the 6 dab links and I moved the template to the "Aftermath" section, which has no pictures so no text could be squeezed, it is also unhidden.--SRX 20:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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