Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iveta Mukuchyan/archive3

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:28, 15 January 2019 [1].

Iveta Mukuchyan[edit]

Iveta Mukuchyan is a German-Armenian singer-songwriter, model, and actress. Any additional comments on the article will be greatly appreciated. @Vami IV: and @Aoba47:, sorry I did not respond on your comments in the previous archive as I was very busy. However, now I have read your comments and corrected most of the article. Can you please take a look at it one more time? Harut111 (talk) 12:52, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Aoba47[edit]

Resolved comments from Aoba47
*This sentence (Mukuchyan auditioned for season two of The Voice of Germany in 2012.) implies to me that she did not get past the audition phase though the article on the second season shows that she did go further in the competition. Maybe say “participated” instead to better reflect this?
  • For this sentence (Mukuchyan made her acting debut in the comedy movie Run Away Or Get Married(with Armenian actor Mkrtich Arzumanyan) that year), why is the information about her co-star necessary? I think you can remove it without losing much.
  • For this sentence (Her mother, Susanna Ambaryan, was working in a tourist information center before their moving to Germany in 1992.), I would change the part “before their moving to Germany” to “before they moved to Germany” as the original wording reads awkwardly.
  • Any information on her father? It seems odd that the information is only saved until the middle of the paragraph. When I first read the paragraph, I had just assumed that her mother was a single parent, until the father was mentioned later in the paragraph.
  • For this part (In 1995, their family returned to Armenia,), I would say “the family” instead. Also, it is unclear if it was just Iveta and her mother that did all of the moving, or if there were more family members involved. Could you clarify this?
  • For this part (because of the horrible conditions back then), I would say “at the time” instead of “back then”.
  • I have two comments for this sentence (She attended the Catholic Sankt-Ansgar-Schule in Hamburg from 1998 to 2006, working part-time as a waitress in a café). I would remove the comma after “2006” and say “while working part-time as a waitress in a café” instead. Also, the last part needs a citation.
  • Wikilink Hamburg the first time you mention it in the body of the article as you wikilink it in the lead.
  • For this part (at a ceremony, her parents believed that their daughter should become a singer), the comma should be a semicolon.
  • I have two comments for this part ("Following her "parents' advice”,). Remove the stray quotation mark at the beginning, and I think you think you can paraphrase the “parents’ advice” quotes.
  • For this part (and remained there despite the adapting difficulties faced in the country), could you clarify what you mean by “the adapting difficulties”?
  • For this part (Mukuchyan has stated that she was always hiding behind her sister's shadow in Germany.), it should be “in her sister’s shadow” rather than “behind”.
  • This part (where she was eliminated before the semifinals.) needs a citation.
  • For this part (Mukuchyan released the single Simple Like a Flower), the song should be in quotation marks.
  • I have two comments for this part (with music video, in October 2015.), I do not think the comma is necessary and I would add “a” in front of “music video”.
  • For this part (On 3 April 2016 she promoted), there should be a comma after “2016”.
  • For this part (On 21 June she), there should be a comma after “June”.
  • I would wikilink YouTube.
  • Wikilink extended play in the body of the article.
  • For this part (and performed it at the Dalma Garden Mall.), I would say “promoted” instead of “performed”.
  • For this part (On 21 June she announced), there should be a comma after “June”.
  • I would wikilink Facebook.
  • I am not sure if the following sentence and quote (She said of her acting career, "I fell in love with acting and playing different characters. My first experience was with the amazing Mkrtich Arzumanyan and now I was allowed to work with Mher Mkrtchyan and Arka Manukyan for a new movie project that will be in the theaters this year. It is a very different character than I played before. I'm sure you gonna [sic] be just as much surprised as I was.") are necessary for the article.
  • For this image caption (Mukuchyan performing "LoveWave" during a Eurovision rehearsal), I would specify the year.
  • I would replace this image (File:Iveta Mukuchyan, September 14 2.jpg) with (File:ESC2016 - Armenia Meet & Greet 22.jpg) as the second one is a higher quality image.
  • For this part (Moreover, the singer went on to release the Armenian version of Aznavour song "Quand Tu M'Aimes" (When You Love Me).), I do not believe “Moreover” is necessary.
  • You do not mention her pending nomination for the 2018 Daf Bama Music Awards anywhere other than the “Awards and nominations” table.
  • You mention “Sister Jack” as an associated label in the infobox and and cite them as the label that released her first EP, but you do not mention them at all in the body of the article. Any information on how she joined them or anything like that?
  • You listed (Mukuchyan) as an associated label in the infobox. Did she start a record label under her own name? If she just self-released music without starting a record label with this name, then this should be removed from the infobox.
  • For this part (during an Armenian comedy-show "Women's Club”), remember that shows are in italics not quotation marks.

You have done a lot of great work with this article, but I have unfortunately noticed several prose issues during a first read-through. Once my comments are addressed, I will try to do a more thorough assessment by section (and subsection) when I have the time. Hope this helps somewhat. Aoba47 (talk) 21:06, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: thank you for the comments. I would like to address some of the comments specifically.

Any information on her father? It seems odd that the information is only saved until the middle of the paragraph. When I first read the paragraph, I had just assumed that her mother was a single parent, until the father was mentioned later in the paragraph.

It is mentioned that her father went to Germany to buy a car for the family, however, because of some issues he stayed there longer than expected and her mother made a decision to go and live in Germany with her two daughters. [2] I do not really know how I should mention this in the article (or should I even mention this?)
  • Do any sources mention her father's name? I think that it is important to include this information in the article, as information about a person's early life and family life is important. Right now, the article only references Iveta's father in terms of his attitude about her marriage and language use. I am not sure how to word it exactly either (particularly since I am not that familiar with Iveta). Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For this part (In 1995, their family returned to Armenia,), I would say “the family” instead. Also, it is unclear if it was just Iveta and her mother that did all of the moving, or if there were more family members involved. Could you clarify this?

Her father was already in Germany (as I mentioned above) when her mother joined his husband with her two daughters in 1992. Don't really know how to organize this information.
  • I think that it is important to include as I personally found this section to be confusing as it was missing this information that would connect it all together. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

...paraphrase the “parents’ advice” quotes.

I kinda don't understand what you mean by "paraphrase." Like "Following her parents' advice" - "Following her parents' recommendation?"
  • I am recommending that you use your own words rather than the quote. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For this part (and remained there despite the adapting difficulties faced in the country), could you clarify what you mean by “the adapting difficulties”?

Armenia and Germany were very different countries, so it was difficult for Iveta to adapt to this new environment. (Don't know how to say this in the article)
  • But did Iveta say anything about facing particular problems due to this culture shock? If not, then why is it important enough to include in the article, as it is common for people to struggle with a new environment after moving to a new country (and even sometimes moving to a new area within the same country). Unless you can be more specific with this, I would cut it. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For this image caption (Mukuchyan performing "LoveWave" during a Eurovision rehearsal), I would specify the year.

Is this really necessary? I mean that part is only about Eurovision 2016, it is obvious the rehearsal happened in 2016.
  • I will leave that up to you. I am only suggesting it to help people understand the images more easily if they are scrolling through the article. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would replace this image (File:Iveta Mukuchyan, September 14 2.jpg) with (File:ESC2016 - Armenia Meet & Greet 22.jpg) as the second one is a higher quality image.

The photo you suggest was taken during Eurovision season and there is already a Eurovision photo in the previous section. Should I really use it in this part of the article?
  • I recommended the image change as the current one is lower quality and I think that it would be better to use a higher quality one if there is one available. I do not think that it matters if there are multiple Eurovision photos involved, as it appears Eurovision is important to this person's career. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You mention “Sister Jack” as an associated label in the infobox and cite them as the label that released her first EP, but you do not mention them at all in the body of the article. Any information on how she joined them or anything like that?

Yeah I know. I just do not have a piece of information about the label. The only place that mentions it as the label of EP is iTunes.
  • That makes sense. Just wanted to make sure. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you again for all the comments/recommendations. I would really love to take the article to the next level (FA). Harut111 (talk) 17:39, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • No problem. I just want to help out. Let me know when you have addressed all of my comments and then I will do another read-through. Aoba47 (talk) 23:46, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies in advance, but I have to oppose this nomination based on the prose. There are several issues in the "Early life" section alone. They are the following:

  • I have two comments for this sentence (Iveta Mukuchyan was born on 14 October 1986 in Yerevan, Armenia, (then part of the Soviet Union), where she started kindergarten.). I would replaced this part "Armenia, (then part of the Soviet Union)" with the "Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic" to be more precise. It is clear from that wikilink she was born in an area of the Soviet Union that is not Armenia. I would also cut this part "where she started kindergarten" completely. It is generally assumed that a person attends kindergarten in the place of their birth, and unless her time in kindergarten was notable for some reason, it is not important enough for the reader.
  • I have a few comments for this sentence (Her mother, Susanna Ambaryan, worked in a tourist information center when his husband, Ruben Mukuchyan, went to Germany to buy a car.). The sentence construction is not great, particularly the use of "when", as it could imply that the mother only worked at the center during the time that Ruben went to buy this car. It should be "her" instead of "his" as I am assuming you are referring to Susanna. Since you are referring to Ruben as Susanna's husband rather than Iveta's father, is he Iveta's father? The connection is not made entirely clear. Also, could you clarify why Ruben had to go to a completely different country to buy a car?
  • For this sentence (However, he stayed in Germany due to unforeseen circumstances, therefore, Mukuchyan's mother decided to move the rest of the family to Germany in 1992.), could you clarify what you mean by "unforeseen circumstances"? You give the year when the family moved to Germany, but do you have a year for when Ruben went to Germany first? By "the rest of the family", do you mean just Iveta or more family members (as at this point you have not introduced her sister yet)?
  • I am not sure if this sentence is necessary (According to her mother, Mukuchyan first started singing before talking.). It is a cute anecdote, but it is seems somewhat trivial (and I doubt that it is true).
  • For this sentence (In 1995, the family returned to Armenia, however, they moved back to Germany because of the horrible conditions at the time.), could you clarify what you mean by "the horrible conditions"? Is it because the area was still controlled by the Soviet Union?
  • I would revise this sentence (According to Mukuchyan, her father was a patriot, a very strict man and he always demanded to speak Armenian at their home and marry an Armenian man.) to something like (Mukuchyan described her father as a patriot and a strict man who demanded she only speak Armenian at home and marry an Armenian man.)
  • Clarify which reference is used to support this part "while working part-time as a waitress in a café.".
  • I would revise this sentence (In Hamburg, Mukuchyan was a member of a music club and after singing Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" at a ceremony, her parents believed that their daughter should become a singer.) to something like (While in Hamburg, Mukuchyan joined a music club and sang Celine Dion's "My Heart Will Go On" at a ceremony. Following the performance, her parents believed that she should become a singer.)
  • For this sentence (Following her parents' advice, Mukuchyan returned to Armenia in 2009.), could you clarify why her parents encouraged her to go back to Armenia?
  • I have a comment about this sentence (She studied at the Yerevan Komitas State Conservatory leaving her design studies, begun in Germany, unfinished). Her design studies are rather abruptly mentioned here. When did she begin these studies? Should you mention them earlier?
  • I would move the sentence about her sister to the top of this section, as it is better to described the subject's close family members before moving on to details about their early life. That way, the reader has a clear understanding of the family. Also, can you clarify if Marianna is her older or younger sister?
  • For this sentence (Mukuchyan has stated that she was always hiding in her sister's shadow in Germany), did she say any particular reason why Iveta felt like she was in her sister's shadow?
  • The genres in the infobox do not appear to be sourced anywhere in the article. They will need sources, or they will have to be removed.
  • Avoid WP:SHOUTING in the reference titles. Titles of sources should not be in all caps.

As you can see above, I have several comments for a relatively short section (i.e. I actually had a comment for every sentence in the section). Some of them are more minor; I have several clarification questions that you may not be able to answer if this information is not in the source, and that is fine. My primary problem with the section is that the information does not flow together very well. Apologies again, but I do not think that this is close to FA quality. Aoba47 (talk) 20:35, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Squeamish Ossifrage[edit]

Looking back, this article is on its third FAC appearance almost entirely due to a lack of reviewer engagement. Unfortunately, I also do not believe it is currently at the FA level. As noted above, there are quite a few problems with structure, flow, and overall prose. I'd like to focus on the sourcing concerns, however.

  • Facebook is, with very limited exceptions, not a reliable source. In this article, it's used to cite quite a few things – from Mukuchyan's own statements, to album releases, to magazine cover appearances and award nominations. These are not acceptable uses, especially at the FA level.
  • There are also several references that look like they might be reliable sources, but actually consist of a video being hosted by a third party. That's true for the footage from POP Hanragitaran, hosted at Hayfanat (this one might be a reliable source if cited correctly, but I'm not certain); and for a music video hosted without commentary at PressMedia.am (for whom I cannot find an editorial policy; their "About Us" link goes nowhere also, and I'm inclined to suspect this site is not an independent source).
  • In general, care hasn't been taken to cite sources appropriately. Quite a few of the references are little more than bare links, which makes evaluating their independence and reliability challenging. For example, reference #15 at the time of this writing gives only the source article's title, while linking to it. Missing from the reference are essential bibliographic details like the author (Padraig Muldoon), publication date, and the actual publication itself (Wiwibloggs, which... might actually be an RS despite the name). It's challenging for me to audit them all, especially the Armenian-language sources, but everything will need to be thoroughly checked.
  • Perhaps as part of the lack of care in reference documentation, at least some of these sources are not adequate to support the claims they are referencing. In particular, the statement that "De Jpta" was released "to benefit children with cancer" is referenced to this iTunes page which indicates nothing of the sort.
  • I'm uncertain of the notability of several of the awards. In particular, most of the discussion regarding the Daf Bama Awards is cited to Facebook; I'm unable to immediately determine if that is an indication that the awards themselves are not notable or merely further issues with quality source selection.
  • Furthermore, this may not be a comprehensive treatment of the subject. The details of her personal life are extremely thin and primarily sourced to a teen magazine (and one with an occasionally dubious history, at that). One song is listed as charting on the Swedish national charts, but no other chart performance is given. Now, admittedly, there's no Armenian charts recognized as reliable at WP:CHART, but I somehow suspect that her Eurovision performance means that the Sverigetopplistan isn't the only relevant material for that section. If that's not the case, then I'm curious if there's some special attention that was paid her in Swedish music media. And so forth.
  • There are also a lot of other referencing and reference formatting issues (the website for the magazine Bravo is styled in various reference entries in five different ways: Bravo, Bravo.am, Bravo.am, Bravo, and bravo.am; for the record, the first is correct), but this sort of problem is rather beside the point given the more significant issues.

I'm sorry that this article wasn't given the appropriate attention the first (or second...) time it appeared at FAC, because it might have afforded the opportunity to address the substantial issues before listing a third time. Regrettably, that means I have to oppose (1a, 1b, 1c, 2c). Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:29, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Based on the above comments I'll be archiving this shortly. I'd recommend that after making the suggested improvements to the article you initiate a Peer Review, pinging everyone who's previously commented, or try the FAC mentoring program -- or even do both, in that order. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:28, 15 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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