Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/God of War III/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 10:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

God of War III[edit]

God of War III (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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Nominator(s): JDC808 ♫ 23:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the 2010 video game, God of War III. I am nominating this for featured article again because I believe it is ready to become an FA. Any issues can be easily addressed. --JDC808 ♫ 23:29, 5 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Red Phoenix let's talk...

Image review: Only two images used here, and both are fair use.

  • File:God_of_War_III_cover_art.jpg is good. No concerns.
  • I have some concerns with the fair use rationales for File:GoW3_Kratos_vs_Hercules_QTE.jpg, specifically with why it's not replaceable and minimal use.
    • The image is not replaceable not just because there is no free equivalent of the game. It is also because the game is copyrighted and all screenshots from the game are copyrighted, so no free image can exist because it is an image from a copyrighted work.
With a slight tweak, I used your wording here if that's okay? --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Saying it's a screenshot doesn't qualify for "minimal use". It needs to be specified that only one screenshot is being used in the article to illustrate the topic in question, and is used only for that purpose (see WP:NFCC#3.)
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given the length of the article, might there be a free image of a developer or presentation at an event available? This I wouldn't call a requirement, but would be nice for presentation of the article.

Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 02:44, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work on the rationales. As to the suggestion, I personally find no use for those types of images on any article (except for bios or a cast where an image is of that person[s]). They don't add any significance to the article in my opinion. When I see those in other articles, I ask myself "why is this here? It does not tell or show me anything about the game, which is what I want to know about." I own the collector's edition, so I can take a pic of the contents of it and upload it (been meaning to for awhile). --JDC808 ♫ 08:51, 13 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Usually I would agree with you unless the article is sufficiently long and its amount of images seems insufficient. Illustration is more than simply an aesthetic; it increases readability of the article as well in my opinion, and relevance becomes more and more difficult when the subject is a copyrighted work. However, as I would call this a gray area, I wouldn't say this is a deal breaker to me. I'll see if I can give you a source review and prose review in the next day or two. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 15:05, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll work on another image here soon. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: - spot-checks not done.

  • Reference 12: Per WP:VG/S, MobyGames is not a reliable source and cannot be used. Even after GameFly bought the site, it's still user-contributed without editorial oversight.
I've changed the source to the game itself. In past FACs, this has worked. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine with me; surely the game as a primary source is reliable with non-controversial statements to itself. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 15:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • References 16, 20: the site itself seems a little sketchy. Can you vouch for its reliability?
I can't really find anything that makes it unreliable. They have an editing staff. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That works for me. That would be an indicator of editorial oversight. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 15:18, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes reference 59 (National Console Support, Inc.) a reliable source?
I can't really say for sure. It's the only site I was able to find that listed what the Japanese release included. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I found the "About Us" button and took a quick survey. Given what it's citing, I think I should be good here.
  • Otherwise looks good. References are all well formatted and all archived, which is outstanding.

Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 15:53, 16 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --JDC808 ♫ 02:16, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be working on these very soon. Been busy past few days. --JDC808 ♫ 22:05, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's cool, I have too. Just the way it goes, sometimes. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 03:44, 21 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Image and source reviews are good, although I haven't done any spot-checks. I've reviewed the prose and formatting, and I don't see anything major that serves as a deal breaker for me—minor issues I can just do some WP:BOLD copyediting if anything glares at me. Sections and content are good, the subject is covered in-depth and appropriately. Well done. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 15:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: JDC808. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Comments from DWB
  • I agree with Red Phoenix' assessment above with one caveat, the image in development and the associated caption do not seem to belong there at all, how I am reading the prose around the image, there is no reason for the image to be there and it would be more purposeful under the Gameplay -> Combat section. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:44, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for a delayed response. I will take care of this today as well as upload another image. --JDC808 ♫ 10:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Another editor moved the image. I'll still be uploading another image though. --JDC808 ♫ 09:13, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Let's improve the quality of this review. THe Development section now reads like a wall of text, could it be broken into subheadings? Even one? Some of htis reads like design and work that went into the game, other stuff sounds like marketing plus voice acting.
Will work on. Gotta figure out how I wanna split it up. --JDC808 ♫ 09:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Broke it into "Early development" and "Pre-launch". --JDC808 ♫ 00:02, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have checked the References using CheckLink and rectified modified URLs. Have also checked Dablinks and Reflinks. No issues found. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 20:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an image of someone involved in the game that could go here or be added elsewhere? A voice actor with a prominent role or someone notable in the staff?
See my response to Red Phoenix above. Also not sure where I can obtain said images because of Wikipedia's policies. --JDC808 ♫ 09:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support Great work. — ΛΧΣ21 Call me Hahc21 16:45, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note There is not enough discussion here to establish whether the FA criteria have been met. With one exception, the reviews are shallow and unhelpful. Without more substantive reviews the prospects for this candidate's promotion are not good, despite the three "supports". Graham Colm (talk) 21:52, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've already given a review, but didn't nitpick the prose because I was satisfied with its quality after reading through. Would nitpicking through it some more for JDC808 to work through help, or will more actual separate reviewers be needed? I'd hate to see this archived a second time after the nominator's first time through with this article was also archived due to lack of feedback. Red Phoenix build the future...remember the past... 19:36, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I just left a message on the WP:VG projects talk page to try and get more reviews. --JDC808 ♫ 11:56, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I can't see anything wrong with this article. Refs, phrasing and structure all alright. I'd pass this. --ProtoDrake (talk) 13:44, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I agree with all above. Great job, and hope it gets passed! - Favre1fan93 (talk) 17:03, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: What's going on with File:GoW3 UE content.jpeg? It contains copyrighted materials as the subject of the image (shouldn't be on Commons) and doesn't have a fair use rationale. I recommend striking the image or replacing it with a representation that doesn't shade out the contents, if it's even necessary to show the collector's edition. czar ♔ 01:42, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's confusing. I've seen other images of "copyrighted" material on Commons. Just curious as to why copyright is an issue here? --JDC808 ♫ 09:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I'm unconvinced this article meets the FA criteria, and in places I found it to be almost incomprehensible, depending as it does on knowledge of the previous games. A few more specific points:

  • "Kratos (left) battles Hercules (right). The image depicts a QTE sequence: successfully moving the right analog stick in the direction shown by the orange arrow will allow Kratos to continue his attack against Hercules." That seems to me to be far too much detail.
I'm not sure how to make it shorter and understandable. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... the Nemean Cestus are required to break through objects composed of onyx", but we were told a sentence or so before that the Nemean Cestus is a pair of fist gauntlets, and a sentence or two further down we're told that "the Nemean Roar can only be used when the Nemean Cestus is equipped". Why does it switch from singular to plural and back again? And what on Earth does "when the Nemean Cestus is equipped" mean?
Simple copy-edit will fix this. No idea where the confusion is with "equipped". Means exactly what it says. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
When the Nemean Cestus is equipped with what? Eric Corbett 22:07, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What? It's saying when the player equips them to be used. Again, I don't see where the confusion is. --JDC808 ♫ 01:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Athena then realizes that when Kratos opened the Box to defeat Ares ..." but " Kratos says the box was empty". So is it "Box" or box"?
Again, simple copy-edit. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "God of War III is set in an alternate version of ancient Greece", but "the game is set in Ancient Greece". Which is to be?
Simple copy-edit. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... achieved through the player's main weapon—the Blades of Exile—and secondary weapons acquired later." Later than what?
Later in the game... --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In addition to its similar gameplay ...". Similar gameplay to what?
The previous games, which it says at the beginning of that paragraph. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Platforming elements require the player to climb walls and ladders, jump across chasms, and swinging on ropes to proceed through sections of the game."
Simple copy-edit. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The player finds chests colored green, blue, red, or white, and each chest contains orbs or the corresponding color." Should that be of the corresponding color"? Rather awkwardly written in any event.
Simple copy-edit. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... which subsequently upgrades magic and makes new, more-powerful attacks available". Why is there a hyphen in "more-powerful"?

Eric Corbett 21:09, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That may have been from a previous copy-editer, I don't remember. Regardless, a simple copy-edit will fix.
Overall, I don't see why this is oppose worthy when a simple copy-edit can fix these. Will do here soon. --JDC808 ♫ 21:40, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If the copyediting is so simple, then why hasn't it been done before now? Eric Corbett 22:05, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Typos can be missed by anyone. --JDC808 ♫ 01:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but so many by everyone? Eric Corbett 01:48, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, but I took care of all these points and a couple others I noticed. --JDC808 ♫ 00:14, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And why have these points not been noticed by other reviewers? Graham Colm (talk) 22:28, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've got no intention of going through and copyediting the whole article, but here are a few more examples of the work that still remains to be done:
  • "Many familiar combination attacks reappear with new additions, including the combat grapple: a ranged-grab maneuver which, depending on the weapon, can pull Kratos towards foes or force them away (necessary at certain points in the game, with Kratos riding harpies across chasms), and a simple grab-with-bare-hands which allows Kratos to use weak foes as a battering ram." Very strange punctuation.
How about now? --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The challenge mode requires players to complete a series of specific tasks (e.g. kill all enemies without weapons before the time runs out). Is that enemies not in possession of weapons, or is the player required to kill his enemies without using weapons?
Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Tartarus is the prison of the dead and also the Titan Cronos ..." And also?
Removed "also". --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Meeting the imprisoned Daedalus, the architect instructs Kratos to unite the Labyrinth. After doing so, he fights his way through the aerial puzzle and rescues Pandora." That's written as if the architect does all that after instructing Kratos.
Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the 2011 British Academy of Film and Television Arts (BAFTA) Video Game Awards, God of War III ... was nominated for "Action" and "Gameplay"." So it was nominated at the award ceremony?
Most people understand what this means, but tried to fix. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I am not "most people", and I understand that nominations aren't made at award ceremonies. Eric Corbett 17:42, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The point was it's generally understood that it wasn't saying that it was nominated at the award show. --JDC808 ♫ 20:12, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Then I suggest that you write what you intend to say, as it very clearly says the nominations happened at the award ceremony. Eric Corbett 21:44, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Hamiltonstone[edit]

Generally avoid computer game articles, but this one seems to be in a bit of a hole... Bit of a random scan of issues here, as I'm short on time... Oppose at present:

  • Why does gameplay come before synopsis? The current order makes expressions such as "the Rage meter for the Rage of Sparta" unintelligible. I think synopsis should be first.
This is the layout developed by the WP:VG project. I'm not sure how that particular expression would become more intelligible with Synopsis before Gameplay since "Rage of Sparta" is not in the Synopsis at all. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • First sentence "The gameplay of God of War III is similar to that of its predecessors" Tell us what those predecessors are.
There's four games that come before this (albeit one is a little different), you want me to list them all? --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Kratos begins the game with the Blades of Athena and the Blade of Olympus at maximum power, these are lost after an encounter with Zeus (the Blades of Athena are replaced with the Blades of Exile and the Blade of Olympus is recovered)" Too much information.
Removed the parenthetical part. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Each weapon has its own magic: the Army of Sparta may only be used when the Blades of Exile is equipped and conversely, the Nemean Roar can only be used when the Nemean Cestus is equipped." Equipped with what? Couldn't understand this sentence.
I explained this to Eric. I do not know what you guys are getting confused about. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Army of Sparta summons a flank of Spartans that cover Kratos in shields while arrows fall from the sky, hitting nearby enemies". Eh? This doesn't appear to be a correct use of the term "flank". And the arrows: are they from the Spartans, or is this a reference to arrows directed by others toward Kratos? Unclear.
Tried to clarity. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • per Eric above, there is an issue with singular / plural in resepct of Blades.
I've already dealt with that. Unless you're referring to how the first sentence says "main weapon is the Blades of Exile", as opposed to are. If that's the case, it's because it's "a pair of blades", not "multiple pairs of blades". Already been through this situation in a previous FAC and this is what they told me. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Poseidon's Trident, Golden Fleece, and Icarus' Wings" the fleece is linked, but no link to either poseidon or icarus?
They were linked later, but are linked here now. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • We are told about the acquisition / retention of relics, but not what they are or how they (as a group, please don't tell me about each one) are used in combat. What type of gameplay object are they? A weapon? A skill? A spell?
Added some clarification without getting into too much specifics. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to use weak foes as a battering ram". Several foes but singular battering ram?
Clarified. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Stig Asmussen had noted that more challenges..." Who is Stig and why do i care what he thinks?
In the infobox, it says he is the Game Director. Added "Game Director" before his name in that sentence. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In combat, a quick time event (QTE) feature, also called context sensitive attacks," feature singular but attacks plural?
Yes. A quick time event is not a singular attack, it's multiple attacks or actions during the event. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...who appear during the psyche sequence". No idea what this is and there appears to be no explanation in the article.
Next to last paragraph of Plot: "Losing consciousness, he [Kratos] is saved by Pandora during a journey into his own psyche. With the help of his wife Lysandra, Kratos forgives himself for his past sins, regains consciousness,...." --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...Kratos has a brief conversation with the spirit of Pandora. " WHy tell us of a conversation without telling us why it is relevant to the plot?
  • "In 2007, God of War Game Director David Jaffe stated that it would be "hell on earth" as gods and the Titans battle each other for domination and "God of War explains, or ultimately will explain, why there are no more Greek myths". Jaffe envisaged a different end to the series,..." The opening to this sentence sounds like a marketing line, not an encyclopedic account of the development. Different end to the series compared to what? Also, a computer game cannot explain why there are no more Greek myths - the way this is written blurs the line between the in-game and the real world.
It's a fictional story (just like Greek myths). The "no more Greek myths" was Jaffe's original idea for the story. I've reworked it a little bit. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article is correct to tell us who Jaffe is (ie. game director) but fails to tell us who Barlog is.
Done. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "engages in "Harpy Riding" (courtesy of the Bow of Apollo), and uses the Blades of Athena and new weapons (the Cestus)." Awful. Why is "Harpy Riding" capitalised, the reference to "courtesy of the Bow of Apollo" is meaningless to the lay reader, and new weapons is plural, but only one is cited, although the Blades of Athena certainly sound like a weapon.
Don't have to be so harsh. Fixed. --JDC808 ♫ 17:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's all I have time for now.hamiltonstone (talk) 09:15, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comment This candidate has been here for a long time but I am not convinced that a consensus for promotion has been reached and I will be archiving this in a few minutes. Please note that superficial reviews such as "I can't see anything wrong with this article", "Great work", "I'd pass this" and "I agree with all above" and not helpful and indeed make it more difficult for the closing delegates to decide. We prefer to see critical comments, either here or at a former peer review, and opposes that are resolved by discussion between the nominators and reviewers. Graham Colm (talk) 22:09, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

But there's still two ongoing reviews. Why close in the middle of them? I could understand if comments were not being made for a few days, but there are comments still being made as of today. As to those comments you pointed out, if they see no issues and support on that, why does it make it hard to decide? --JDC808 ♫ 22:22, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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