Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Episode 2 (Twin Peaks)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 00:53, 26 July 2012 [1].

Episode 2 (Twin Peaks)[edit]

Episode 2 (Twin Peaks) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): GRAPPLE X 03:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another landmark television episode; this time we have the watershed moment when Twin Peaks moved from murder mystery to more familiar Lynchian territory. Unmistakable sound design, rich theatrical sets and a dancing little person. Of course. The article has received a thorough GA review from Astrocog, a peer review from Crisco 1492 and Midnightblueowl; and a copy-edit from Dementia13. As was flagged in my last FAC, reviews from the Den of Geek website have had their notability questioned; this was sidestepped last time round by trimming them out to shave a long "Reception" heading down somewhat but perhaps a direct decision could be reached this time on whether to use or ditch the site as a source. I would warn anyone wishing to review this that it contains a pretty egregious spoiler for the series as a whole; if you're interested in watching it you might not want to read the "Themes" section. Hope you guys enjoy it as much as I enjoyed watching it. GRAPPLE X 03:54, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Grapple X. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • FN30: italicization
    Fixed. GRAPPLE X 16:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN33: doubled quote marks
    The double quote marks at the beginning of the title there are intentional, one is to begin the whole title and the second is because the title itself begins with an item in quote marks. If this is something to be avoided I can strip the quote marks off the episode titles and leave them just for the article title only. GRAPPLE X 16:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Per MOS, should use single quote marks inside double quotes to avoid doubling, as you do for an earlier citation. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:20, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough, have changed that now. GRAPPLE X 20:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • What makes this a high-quality reliable source?
    Den of Geek operates with a dedicated editorial staff, and is owned and operated by Dennis Publishing, a publishing company which operates a number of other reliable outlets including Fortean Times and Maxim. The notability of the site seems to be in question, however, so I'm happy enough to remove the material sourced to it if that's deemed insufficient, but I believe it meets reliability requirements. GRAPPLE X 16:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No citations to Johnson 2004. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:46, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Removed. I checked it again to be sure there was nothing in it that I had intended to add; there wasn't so I'm assuming I added it in error. GRAPPLE X 16:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for having a look at this. If you could clarify whether FN 33 still needs fixing I'll see to that right away. GRAPPLE X 16:02, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: Supported below well, I finally got around to reviewing this, glad to see someone working on a Lynch article. Some comments:
  • One issue is that I feel the article is very heavy on quotes. While you do have to use a lot of them in an article like this, I'd recommend trying to see if you can paraphrase a few. Also, you should probably attribute the quotes in the Themes section in text.
    I've tried dropping a few minor phrases from quote marks (single words like "heuristic", I suppose, don't need to be directly quoted) and paraphrased a bit. I'd already paraphrased a fair bit, especially the section about Ferrer's casting, so I'm a little wary of avoiding too much attribution. If you think there are other specific quotes I could rephrase myself then point me to them and I'll get them sorted out easy enough. GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd consider delinking "mystery" in the lead, and maybe linking "baguettes" if there's a good target.
    Done, both. GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the second paragraph of "Reception" you start a few consecutive sentences with "Lynch..." I'd try to rephrase one or two there.
    I assumed you meant "Production" as the "Reception" heading uses the name three times and all in quotes; in the production paragraph I've tried to incorporate "the director" where possible. GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Try to be consistent with the use of italics for "A.V. Club".
    Italicised all. GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some repetition here: "The location used for the brothel One Eyed Jacks was used"
    Changed to "The location used for the brothel One Eyed Jacks appeared". GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the works of Sherwood Anderson, Flannery O'Connor and Truman Capote" Maybe a brief intro would work well here, "mid-20th Century American writers" or something.
    Inserted your wording; would have used a genre instead of "American" but I'm not sure if Anderson wrote the kind of crime fiction the other two did. GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The female cast members were deliberately lit with soft lighting from a close range, as the "glow" this gave the actresses helped to create a "veneer of innocence and comfort". I think you could cut out "this gave the actresses" since it's stated before the comma. Mark Arsten (talk) 22:49, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Rephrased this one quite a bit. GRAPPLE X
    Thanks for looking at this one for me, I appreciate your comments. And don't worry, I'm no stranger to working on Lynch. GRAPPLE X 23:19, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure I like the idea of linking the DVD titles to the episode lists like this: "[[The Simpsons (season 7)|The Simpsons: The Complete Seventh Season]]" & "[[List of Twin Peaks episodes#Season 1 (1990)|Twin Peaks: The Complete First Season]]"
    Just a stylistic habit of mine, I figure a link that isn't harmful or redundant is worth going for. As I tend to credit the first director of a season and "et al", I figured a link to the season in question would be a good addition in lieu of full credits. I don't mind stripping them out though since it's nothing important at all (the one for Twin Peaks itself did seem a wee bit iffy to myself as well to be honest with you). I've removed them for now. GRAPPLE X 18:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there anything of use in Pervert in the Pulpit: Morality in the Works of David Lynch By Jeff Johnson? It looks like this episode is discussed on pages 153–4. Also, have you read Dolan's chapter in Full of Secrets, it looks like Episode 2 is mentioned two or three times, not sure if there's much of use there. Otherwise, it looks like you've covered all the good sources.
    As for the former, I had it listed in the article but not actually used, when I reviewed it to see if I had neglected it I saw that nothing in it is really detailed enough to warrant mention, and anything mentioned thus far has been covered by another author or source; the phallic sandwiches, the relative involvement of various crew across the series, etc. As for Dolan, I had a read through it there now. There's brief mention of this episode (called "Episode 3" in the book thanks to the confusing title series that goes "Pilot", "Episode 1".. etc), but mainly in noting how the second season changed things rather than in how this episode initially did them; I could glean a bit from it about how the dream sequence is presented here as simply a dream, untethered to anything else, and how this changed as "Episode 9" showed it to be an actual world and not one man's dream; to me this is probably more germane to Episode 9 but I won't take much convincing to add it here. GRAPPLE X 18:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The dream sequence's distinctive reversed speech was achieved by having the actors learn to speak their lines phonetically backwards, and then playing this audio in reverse." This sentence reads a bit awkwardly to me, can you think of a good way to make it more clear?
    Attempted it, managed "Dialogue heard in the dream sequence uses a distinctive reversed manner of speech. This was achieved by recording the actors' line phonetically reversed, and playing this audio backwards". Any better? It is sort of difficult to word but if you hear it it's grokkable. GRAPPLE X 18:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The dream sequence has also been described as "the scene that separated the men from the boys", with The Washington Post's Tom Shales noting that it further polarized the series' audience, attracting loyal viewers and putting off others" Is Shales being quoted in the first part of the sentence? Mark Arsten (talk) 18:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. I've reworded that to make it clearer. Thanks again for your continued input. :) GRAPPLE X 18:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ok, I'm satisfied with the fixes and explanations, and am now ready to support. No opinion on the Den of Geek thing. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I just watched the episode, and I can now vouch for the accuracy of the plot summary. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:08, 9 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Image review from Crisco 1492
Disclosure: I helped at the article's peer review
Prose comments from Crisco 1492
Addressed comments from Crisco 1492 moved to talk
  • Support - Looks good, interesting read. I'd prefer we trim Den of Geek though. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 03:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: i think you should change the article's name to Zen... Episode 2 isn't a title at all, and you can avoid the unfortunate "Episode 2 is the third episode". There's also wp:commonname and the note [nb 1] explains things well enough. Next: as this an ensemble-cast show, listing them all in the infobox and the lead is a drag; Wikipedia is not IMDb. I suggest dealing with this by naming an actor only when his Character is mentioned.—indopug (talk) 16:19, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, WP:COMMONNAME would still favour "Episode 2", most of the academic sources and some reviews use that title, as do the home media releases; "Zen, or the Skill to Catch a Killer" is the rarer one, only being used by a few (mostly more recent) sources. I included the mention as it solves some confusion if people search by the unofficial titles. I've removed some of the listed cast in the infobox to trim that down, though the series does feature a large cast of recurring characters so this will seem a bit lengthy compared to other series. GRAPPLE X 20:40, 24 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support can't find much to nitpick about at all. Looks fine on prose and comprehensiveness grounds. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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