Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Corp Naomh/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 16 December 2022 [1].

Corp Naomh[edit]

Nominator(s): Ceoil (talk) 10:56, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Highly ornate and visually appealing (although badly damaged) 9th or 10th century bell shrine that was heavily rebuilt in the 15th century for the better. Originally commissioned as a reliquary container for the hand-bell relic of a, by then, long dead Irish saint (whose identity is now lost), it is now considered a high point of medieval Irish metalwork.

Much appreciation to Sailko for the images –the object is not normally on display for some odd reason, probably conservation as there is plenty scholarship. Part of a series on Insular art; feedback/insight/criticism gratefully welcome. Ceoil (talk) 10:56, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

  • "It was likely was held" - stray word in there
  • "Although recognised as the object as a reliquary" - should this be "Although recognising the object as a reliquary"
  • "The shrine consists of a sheet and cast metal mounds" - should "mould" be singular?
Changed this to "mounts" Ceoil (talk) 02:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is hollow, and made from a bronze casts" - should "cast" be singular?
  • "the back of his heads protrudes" - he has multiple heads?
  • "He wears a full-length and according to Bourke, "wing-like" tunic or cloak" => "He wears a full-length and, according to Bourke, "wing-like" tunic or cloak"
  • "described these designs and their "equal-rayed limbs" as an examples" - design example should presumably be singular?
  • Wikilink Book of Kells
  • "the rider's hands are placed inside their cloaks" - if you are referring to multiple riders then the apostrophe should be after the s
  • "dramatically curls-up at the back" - no need for that hyphen
  • "Two oversized birds perch on the horse's heads" - again, if you are talking about multiple horses then the apostrophe is in the wrong place
  • "Like the rider's cloaks, the bird's wings" - same here (both cases)
  • "In the panel, the animal's hindlegs" - same again
  • That's all I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:54, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks Chris, resolved now. Ceoil (talk) 19:09, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's been a lot of subsequent work so I think I'll have to do a whole fresh review, but one thing that jumps out at a first glance is "It contains a series of much tinner confronted animals" - is that meant to say "thinner"......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:41, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • yes, thinner. Fixed now. Ceoil (talk) 19:29, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Chris, I think we have enough commentary to make a call to close this but if you still feel you'd like to re-review, pls go ahead -- just let me know yay or nay on that at your earliest... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:09, 15 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Ian, see support from Chris below[2]. Ceoil (talk) 01:55, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I must've blinked -- tks! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:00, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review. Placeholder - please ping me once the above has been addressed. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "likely belonging to an early Irish saint." Could we change the US English "likely" to the Irish English 'probably'. Similarly with "It was likely held by hereditary keepers".
    Done. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sections from its original phase include the cross on the reverse and the ornate semi-circular cap on the top". I have reread this several times and have no idea what it means. What does it mean?
    "phase" means build period. I've tweaked a bit to make this clearer, but do need a clearer definition. Hold on. Ceoil (talk) 21:15, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Some indication in the lead of the size of the object would be helpful.
    Now added. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "after the dissolution of Tristernagh Abbey". Is it known when this happened?
    Clarified.. Ceoil (talk) 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Treasury room". Either upper case R or lower case t.
    It's The Treasury according to the NMI website, although the capital "The" looks weird to me. Thinking.
That's ok, cus the MoS suggests that "The word the at the start of a name is uncapitalized, regardless of the institution's own usage".
I ended up removing the claim, remembering that it wasn't there on last visit...the (underfunded) NMI website is notoriously poor and out of date. Ceoil (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this Gog, given your current limited wiki time. 20:37, 13 November 2022 (UTC)
  • "Co. Westmeath". Abbreviations should be given in full at first mention.
    dabed. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was first mentioned and described in Henry Piers, Chorographical Description of the County of Westmeath." Should "Piers" have a possessive?
    Yes. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it was found to contain a block of wood substituting a saint's hand-bell." I am puzzled; how was it know that a block of wood was meant to represent a hand bell? I mean, it was just a piece of wood.
    The metalwork's shape made it obvious that it was a bell shrine. Presumably the wood was placed so as it wouldn't collapse. Need to review the sources to cite this. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "it is generally accepted that the 15th century additions". This is the first mention of 15th century additions, so they need introducing properly.
  • The quote starting "laced...of brass, and..." is 62 words long. The MoS suggests "Format a long quote (more than about forty words ...) as a block quotation, indented on both sides."
    Has been paraphrased Ceoil (talk) 21:23, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I think will chop this down and move parts to other sections. Hold on. Ceoil (talk) 06:06, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "RIA". Abbreviations should be given in full at first mention.
    done. Ceoil (talk) 22:07, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the 600-900AD period". En dash, not a hyphen, and a space before AD.
  • "the large central figure of Jesus on the cross. At 23 cm (9.1 in) high, it is around the size of a pocket bible". What is size of the bible. At the moment you have this as the figure of Jesus. If you mean the shrine then "it is" → 'the shrine is'.
    Now linked to pocket gospel book, which gives a clearer indication. Ceoil (talk) 02:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "produced between 600 and 900 AD with iron coated with bronze". Perhaps "with" → 'of'?
  • "It consists of a sheet and cast metal mounds". What are "mounds"? What is the "sheet" made of?
  • Monds = protrusions, the sheets now clarified as bronze. Ceoil (talk) 02:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are from the 9th or 10th century phase." Consider deleting "phase". If not, what is it/does it mean?
  • "frontside" isn't a word. You probably mean 'front side'.
  • "and is composed from". Possibly "from" → 'of'? I don't think something can be "composed from".
  • Is there such a thing as "full profile"? I understood there to be either profile or full face. Happy to be corrected.
  • "beard and whiskers." What whiskers are there which are not part of the beard?
  • Removed whickers, but the point was the fine detail on such a small figure. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Then by all means say so, assuming a source supports it. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:07, 6 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Raised bands divide the robe". Just a suggestion → 'Raised diagonal bands divide the robe'.
  • "Patrick's Cross". Why the italics?
  • "and designed in the so-called "Kells style" attached to a number of riding figures in earlier or contemporary". 1. I am not sure about "designed", perhaps 'shown'? 2. "attached"? Maybe something like 'also seen in'?
  • "has a long and thick mane, has a downwards looking head and eyes, and long and wide tail." Delete the second "has".
  • "The hind legs are positioned low underneath their body". "their" → 'its'.
  • Optional: "Keeping within this tradition" → 'In keeping with this tradition'.
  • "below the horse's knees rather than above the horse's shoulders." "above the horse's shoulders" → 'above its shoulders.'.
  • "the birds represent the martyrdom of the cleric". Which cleric?
  • The one they are facing, as in the section above. Done. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Similar figures in the Book of Kells miniatures ... have short fringes and sometimes a bald crown." But the second illustration from the Book of Kells immediately below shows a rider with a full head of hair which curls up at the back.
  • The titles of works all seem to be in title case except for Johnson, 2005.
Working through these, most done. Ceoil (talk) 15:03, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The bronze figure of Jesus and the silver cross were both added in the 15th century but are now badly damaged, as are large portions of the cross". "as are large portions of the cross" ? This is already covered by "are now badly damaged".
  • "a deeper cut protrusion". To protrude is "To extend from, above or beyond a surface or boundary; to bulge outward; to stick out." So how can one have a deeper protrusion?
    Incision. Ceoil (talk) 02:07, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lining the length of the shire". What's a "shire"?
  • "placing its creation to 1493". Is there a grammar hiccup here?
  • "a fact used to date the additions to the Corp Naomh's main panel. "Perhaps how this was done could be explained, if only in a footnote?
  • "a grid of interlinked cast openwork, equal sized, crosses." I think there should be a comma after "cast" and a hyphen after "equal".
  • Yes, rephrased this. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "its upper side panels" → 'its upper-side panels'?
  • "which holds the crosses." the crosses? Have these already been introduced?
  • "amongst other contemporary Irish metal relic containers." Does this mean that the Soiscél Molaisse and the Shrine of Miosach are both examples of contemporary Irish metal relic containers, or that they are both examples of contemporary Irish metal relic containers with similar crosses?
    The latter, as indicated by The crosses are similar to those on the...". Ceoil (talk) 02:32, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The plate dates to roughly the same period as the first phase". I think that you need to define and explain somewhere what the "phases" are.
  • "polaire" should use a lang template.
  • "An undated portable leather case". Does "portable" add anything?
  • it idicates that the case was used for carrying from place to place, but guess that's implied so removed. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does "sewing" really need linking?
  • Suppose not; delinked. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The flap has rows of stitch holes heavier than". How can a hole be heavier than something?
  • Rephrased to indicate that the holes are larger, ie they once contained heavier thread. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And that's it for a first run through. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:20, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "It was probably held by hereditary keepers after the dissolution of Tristernagh Abbey" is in the lead, but I struggle to find it in the main article.
  • "The metalwork's shape made it obvious that it was a bell shrine. Presumably the wood was placed so as it wouldn't collapse. Need to review the sources to cite this". Any joy?

Looking really good. IMHO. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:27, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Almost there; there is the block quote to also sort out. Been a very rewarding review! Ceoil (talk) 01:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you found my reviews intimidating? ;-) Gog the Mild (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe your not as dastardly as everybody says ;) Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As update, just the block quote and hereditary keepers claim left. Ceoil (talk) 08:28, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gog, apologies for delay; all resolved now if you can take another (hopefully final) look. Ceoil (talk) 22:12, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You called? Gog the Mild (talk) 11:00, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I did. Are you in a position to say aye or nay Ceoil (talk) 21:35, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is an aye. See also the section heading. —Kusma (talk) 22:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Eeek! Thanks both!!!! :) Ceoil (talk) 22:23, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda's comments and support[edit]

Thank you for another fine piece from Irish cultural heritage! I'd make small changes myself but was offline on a plane when I wrote it, and - on vacation - can't check again.

Lead

  • "to enclose a now lost c. 600 to 900 AD hand-bell, likely belonging to an early Irish saint" - can we get the time for the bell to later?
    Reworded this so the dates are not interrupting the flow so much. Ceoil (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • link saint, or Irish saints if there is something?
    went with List of saints of Ireland which appropriately says “The vast majority of these saints lived during the 4th–10th centuries” Ceoil (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • extra "was" in third para
    Done Ceoil (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox

  • avoid extra lines for references?
    Removed Ceoil (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Discovery

  • I recommend to move the bell image altogether from that section. It sandwiches text, displaces the following header, and the text has no bell yet. The pic could go to Function" (or to the bottom after leather case where there's white space)
    moved Ceoil (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cleric

  • no comma after Bourke, or a comma before "according"
    Done Ceoil (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Horsemen

Confronted animals

  • with a link to embossed we don't need the longish explanation in brackets
    snippedCeoil (talk) 19:05, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All these are just minor points. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:49, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

all great suggestions for improvement, will add tomorrow. ps, have great holiday! Ceoil (talk) 03:13, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
thank you for action and wishes, - Sunday was another great day, singing with a friend in her church choir in historic Katonah, then hike in Manitoga with other friends, pics to come
support article --Gerda Arendt (talk) 01:13, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review (pass)[edit]

  • Consistent alt text would be good. The infobox image has alt text in Italian, not ideal.
that’s the file name, but agree. Ceoil (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Done, but with articles on specific artworks or objects, alt is less useful as the image caption would cover it anyway. Ceoil (talk) 06:31, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Main images of the corp naomh and other National Museum of Ireland images look to be OK by Irish freedom of panorama law.
  • Book of Kells images: why are these PD in the US? According to Book of Kells, some if not most of the images were published in Ireland early enough to be PD in the US in 1996, but when were these two published?
    Have replaced with PD-old-100-1923, which have used on recommendation on FACs on illuminated manuscripts. Ceoil (talk) 21:20, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I guess the issue here is whether the book was "published" before 1927. The British Library says there is technically copyright on illuminated manuscripts they own if they have never been published ([3]). The copyright notice from Trinity at [4] is a bit confusing, stating "Rights statement: Copyright The Board of Trinity College Dublin. Images are available for single-use academic application only. Publication, transmission or display is prohibited without formal written approval of the Library of Trinity College, Dublin." followed by "Copyright status: Public domain" which we might take as saying the images are PD, but Trinity claims the rights for the specific reproductions on their webpage? The bad news is that the images are sourced to exactly this digital reproduction... on the other hand, the existence of a 1951 facsimile edition mentioned at Book of Kells should mean the images from that edition are all PD in the US, as they should have become PD where they were published and then in 1996 in the US. Does image copyright also give you a headache? —Kusma (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does image copyright also give you a headache. I need a sit down and smelling salts. Will fix the captions for now, but will be a day or two before I get to look at the licensing. But nice to have a friendly and helpful img reviewer, so thanks :) Ceoil (talk) 22:12, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • While we're here, the captions still need a tiny bit of work. One of the horsemen is actually on (double check "on" versus "in", currently inconsistent in the caption) folio 89 (recto), not 58. You can find the whole book at [5] (your images are from image 513=255 verso and 180=89 recto). —Kusma (talk) 22:03, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Confirmed from the tcd website and done. Ceoil (talk) 22:47, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Corp Naomh Reverse Margaret Stokes.jpg: doesn't look like a drawing, and the source doesn't mention Margaret Stokes?
yeah, will remove and see if I can get a free one. Ceoil (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do we need the catalogue number for the leather case in the caption?
removed. Ceoil (talk) 19:02, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's all. —Kusma (talk) 11:09, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kusma; getting to the publication of the Book of Kells Images just now, in case you think have forgotten. Ceoil (talk) 09:03, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Ceoil, I think the 1951 publication in Switzerland (even if black and white [6]) should be enough to make the Kells images PD long enough before 1996 for them to be OK. It is debatable whether the copyright tag for the images is OK; perhaps something like {{PD-Art-two|1=PD-100|2=PD-1996}} is better. Thank you for the alt tags and other changes. —Kusma (talk) 21:58, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Kusma, have switched the tag for both colour imgs to {{PD-Art-two|1=PD-100|2=PD-1996}} as first preference; I think using B+W reproductions for imgs from the BOK is near sacrilege given the colorisation is kind of the whole point as to whey the book is so well know. If have to go down the FU route, second choice is to use just one image, butr that would be a bummer, and take from the ed value of the article. Anyway, thanks again for all the feedback. Ceoil (talk) 21:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, reduced to just one book of kells img. Ceoil (talk) 22:03, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think a fair use defence is needed for either of the images. With the new tags, the images are fine and this image review is a pass. —Kusma (talk) 22:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Finally, I can start to rebuild my life and sleep easy at night :) Ceoil (talk) 23:44, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Harry[edit]

  • Can we have a plain-text pronunciation guide in the lead?
  • the then-owner of the land on which the You don't need "then" for the same reasons we don't use "the late" (for example)
  • However, when finally opened it was found to contain a block of wood No need for the "however".
  • described as "a certain gentleman, a great zealot of the romish church". You need a reference straight after a direct quote. And should Romish Church be a proper noun?
  • "laced...of brass, and...studded Ellipses should be spaced per MOS:ELLIPSIS
  • The large diagonal cross on the case's front is consists of two overlapping leather straps sewn onto the case. Stray word?

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:35, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Harry, all done except trying to figure out how to add a plain-text pronunciation. Ceoil (talk) 12:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Harry, have made a stab at phonetic pronunciation based on how I would pronounce it, but Irish lang dialects widely vary by region, on spelling, vocabulary and especially accent (and of course the sources don't cover this). Ceoil (talk) 23:36, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
LGTM. Support. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:15, 5 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thanks for review and support Harry. Ceoil (talk) 22:35, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments[edit]

  • "became signina of clerical office" - never seen the word "signina" before. If it's not a typo, is there an appropriate link?
  • THat's it :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:15, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass[edit]

Will do a source review here. Hog Farm Talk 22:41, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • No issues with source reliability
  • Formatting is satisfactory
  • Spot-checked the cites to Frazer p. 35 and didn't see any issues. Hog Farm Talk 23:17, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Great and many thanks Hog Farm. Ceoil (talk) 23:36, 11 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Corp_Naomh/archive1&oldid=1127846138"