Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Blakeney Point/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 06:28, 22 October 2012 [1].

Blakeney Point[edit]

Blakeney Point (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Turnip sawfly, Doggerland and Gentlemen Gunners appear in this latest stretch of the Norfolk coast. If I've missed your favourite clown beetle or bryophyte, let me know and I'll see if I can source it. Delegate permission has been given to initiate this FAC Jimfbleak - talk to me? 11:57, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from TBrandley: I am going to add my input here within two days. Ping me if I forget. :) Overall, I can say that the article looks good. TBrandley 18:53, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comment: the grammar in Rabbits adversely affect the fragile dune vegetation; when numbers are reduced by myxomatosis, the plants recover, although those that are toxic to rabbits, like ragwort then decline in abundance needs improving, I suggest two sentences as it's a fairly complex and separable idea in the second clause. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:27, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've slightly expanded to make it clear it's feeding and burrowing that damage the plants, split as suggested, thanks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:04, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

SupportComments, leaning to support: A charming article, which has the effect of making me want to visit the place which, I suppose, is feasible since it's less than 100 miles from my Lincolnshire stronghold. I have a number of minor prose issues, along with a few questions and suggestions:-

Lead–
  • "salt marsh" (singular) in second line reads as though it should be "salt marshes"
  • I'd lose the comma after "Special Interest", and I wonder if the word "additionally" is necessary
  • Lost comma, but kept "additionally" since SSSIs don't necessarily have any of these extra designations Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This area..." → "The area..."?
  • "the land-based activities also put pressure..." The "also" looks redundant
  • This sentence is too long, and its punctuation is presently ambiguous: "This means that land is lost to the sea as the spit rolls forward, and the River Glaven has to be realigned when it is blocked by the shingle to prevent flooding of Cley village, Cley Marshes nature reserve and the reclaimed and environmentally important grazing pastures."
  • Land is lost to the sea as the spit rolls forward, and the River Glaven may become blocked by the advancing shingle. Since this can lead to flooding of Cley village, Cley Marshes nature reserve and the environmentally important reclaimed grazing pastures, the river has to be realigned every few decades. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Description
  • Redundant "actually"
  • From the map, Clay beach appears to be at the eastern end of the spit, so it might be better to describe the spit as running from west to east "before continuing onwards..." etc. Or perhaps I have just misunderstood the geography.
To 1912
  • In the first sentence the word "including" seems entirely redundant. History does not "include" archaeology; they are separate disciplines relating to the study of the past.
  • "partly because of the then prevailing very cold conditions" - clumsy wording? Suggest: "partly because of the very cold conditions that existed then,..."
  • "An "eye" is an area of higher ground in the marshes, dry enough to support buildings." Indeed, but the insertion of this explanatory information mid-paragraph is a bit disconcerting. Perhaps consider ways in which the paragraph could be reworded so that such information can be given without disrupting the prose flow.
  • "unusual second tower" - does "unusual refer to its design, or to its existence?
  • Tweaked to make it clear that it is the existence of the second tower that is unusual in a rural parish church Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
National Trust era
  • Who was the Point purchased from? There is no clear information about previous ownership.
  • What is a SSSI? The only previous mention is a link in the infobox. Also, the innitials NNR are not specifically tied to "National Nature Reserve"
Birds
  • I got a bit mixed up in the sentence: "The pastures have breeding Northern Lapwings, and patches of common reed hold species such as Sedge and Reed Warblers and Bearded Tits.2 I think it's partly the usage of "have" and "hold"; it might read better as: "The pastures contain breeding Northern Lapwings, and species such as Sedge and Reed Warblers and Bearded Tits are found in patches of common reed."
  • "may turn up" → "have turned up", since you follow with "...including [several examples]"
  • "only the second British record at that time". I can't make sense of this. What "British record" are you referring to?
Other animals
  • "decline in abundance" momentarily threw me; it sounded like an oxymoron (as in "slowed down rapidly") before I "got" it. Perhaps "quantity" rather than "abundance" would avoid misunderstanding. I'm also not clear why ragwort should decline along with a fall in the rabbit population.
  • Changed to less common, made it clear that the rabbit-proof toxic ragwort suffers from competition with edible plants when the rabbits aren't eating them Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is a hedgehog classed as a "rare mammal"?
  • Made it clearer that these are rare in the NNR. Salt marshes and sand dunes are among the few habitats hedgehogs can't cope with. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Plants
  • "important": I would say "have an important function"
  • If possible, can you avoid inclusion of "pH" in the text, even linked? The linked article, written by robots for chemistry students, will be incomprehensible to most of your readers.
  • "There are introduced tree lupins near the Lifeboat House." Doesn't make sense grammatically, can't work it out.
  • expanded a bit to try to make it clear that these are non-native plants that have become established here Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Recreation
  • Figures in the first paragraph are confusing. On the one hand, 7.7 million day visitors and 5.5 million overnighters spent £122 million, and created the equivalent of 2,325 full-time jobs. But later, "The equivalent of 52 full-time jobs in the local area are estimated to result from the £2.45 million spent by the visiting public." To what do the latter figures refer?
  • tweaked to make it clearer that the first set refer to the north Norfolk coast as a whole, second to the Cley/Blakeney area Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Threats
  • "...several raised islands or "eyes" have already been lost to the sea as the beach has rolled over the saltmarsh." I'm not sure I entirely follow what that means but, more importantly, it is uncited information.
  • Looks as if I never added the ref, done now and expanded to clarify process Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Landward movement of the shingle meant that the channel of the Glaven, itself excavated in 1922 because an earlier, more northerly course was overwhelmed between Blakeney and Cley, was becoming blocked increasingly often by 2004." Difficult to read, partly because of the length of the subordinate clause, and also because "overwhelmed" is unexplained. Maybe rephrase?
  • I've rejigged, and moved the 1922 later in the paragraph as an example of a former realignmentJimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Attempting to hold back the shingle or breaching the spit to create a new outlet for the Glaven would be expensive and probably ineffective, and doing nothing would be environmentally damaging." These statements need to be expressed in terms of the Agency's beliefs: "It believed that..." etc

One general point. I was surprised that there is no reference in the article to the East Coast floods of 1953, which did severe damage in relatively nearby places such as Hunstanton, and I imagine would have had some effect on an exposed feature like Blakeney Point. Is there any record of what happened?

  • Yes, and I had a source. Added now, bit of a non-event compared to the other parts of the coast since no people, no farmland, just temporarily rearranges the spit, Added now. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't imagine the above will cause you much strife, and I look forward to fully supporting soon. (Note: feel free to ping me when you're done). Brianboulton (talk) 16:16, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for comments, Brian, I'm off to Norfolk for a couple of days, I'll respond when I get back Jimfbleak - talk to me? 04:51, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for review and comments, I think all done now Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All fixes OK, and switched to support. Great article Brianboulton (talk) 10:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for support Jimfbleak - talk to me? 19:10, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Allison 1986 or 1989? Murphy 2005 or 2009?
  • Missing bibliographic info for Birks 2003
  • No citations to Allen & Pye, East Anglia Coastal Group, Harrup & Redman, Norfolk Wildlife Trust, Robinson 1986
  • Fn25: check title caps. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all images OK (own work, Geography project and a copy of an old map) with author and source info provided.

  • Thanks for review. The image file and caption both give the date it was made, which is near enough Jimfbleak - talk to me? 10:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed comments from TBrandley moved to talk

  • Support on all criteria. TBrandley 23:32, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment (from GermanJoe) - another nice article, close to FA, some prose nitpicking, scope issues and questions (Done):

  • lead - "The Point" ==> just checking, is that a common short form of its name? (if yes, you could add it as alternative informal name to the intro sentence)
  • "...by Francis Wall Oliver and a bird ringing programme initiated by Emma Turner." ==> here it may be obvious, but still - you could qualify persons immediately here with "botanist" and "ornithologist".
  • "The area has a long history of human occupation, [and the] ruins of a - " - those phrases would flow a little better with semicolon and no "and the" (both could be full sentences, the second part elaborates the first).
  • "... the river has to [] realigned every few decades." - is there a "be" missing?
  • To 1912 - "Norfolk has a long history of human occupation dating back to the Palaeolithic, [and significant archaeology]." ==> a country can't "have" archaelogy (the science). Maybe "has several significant archaeological sites" or "is the focus of significant archaeological studies".
  • "... 14th-to-16th-century ..." ==> looks strange (for a German atleast ...), should it be "14th- to 16th-century" or even "14th to 16th century"?
  • "The spit sheltered the Glaven ports, Blakeney, Cley-next-the-Sea and Wiveton, which were important medieval harbours." - the preceding para ends with very similar information. Any way to improve the information between those two sentences and remove the slight redundancy?
  • National Trust Area- "but some ["Gentleman Gunners"] hunted to collect rare birds" - i'd use a term with less implications and overtones (NPOV), without context this term doesn't help to understand the situation.
  • "Francis Oliver" should be "Francis Wall Oliver" (as introduced in lead, avoid varying names).
  • "The Point became a National Nature Reserve (NNR) in 1994,[29] and the coast from Holkham NNR to Salthouse, together with Scolt Head Island, is a Biosphere Reserve." - As the tense changes between both clauses, do you have a date for the second part ("... since yyyy")?
  • Birds - "Blakeney Point has been designated as one of the most important sites in Europe for nesting terns." - i'd specify in-text, designated by whom?
  • "The Point's location means that migrant birds may be found at the appropriate seasons, sometimes in huge numbers when the weather conditions are right." - needs rephrase. A bit clumsy start followed by awkward terms: "appropriate seasons", "right weather conditions". It's clear, what the sentence tries to say, but it should flow better. Also can you add here immediately, what's special about "The Point's location" to get the context?
  • Other Animals - "The Common Seals ..., so they are restricted to dry land for their first three or four weeks." ==> Is this detailed description specific for Blakeney Point? If it describes general worldwide seal features, it is out of scope here and should be completely removed (or moved to the sub-articles about seals).
  • Plants - "Glasswort is picked between May and September and sold locally as "samphire" [(pronounced "samfer")]." ==> Pronunciation info is out of scope. Move to samphire sub-article.
  • Recreation - "... and created the equivalent of 2,325 full-time jobs in that area." ==> that sounds a bit odd, actual visitors usually "secure" jobs, they don't "create" them. The creation is a longer process over years, meeting the growing demand. Could you double-check the source please?

Comprehensive, well-written and structured - just a little more polish needed. GermanJoe (talk) 08:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for review and comments. I've made these edits to address your concerns. Although the grey seal info is general, I've expanded it to show its relevance to observing the seals at this site. I've not given the Point as an alternative name, because it's only so within context. If we were in east Yorkshire, the Point would refer to Spurn Point Jimfbleak - talk to me? 09:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support - all listed points Done, thanks. The seal description works as, a bit detailed, additional background info, so no problem. GermanJoe (talk) 10:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am puzzled by the name of the page being "Blakeney Point". This page of the natures reserve's website indicates that the nature reserve is called "Blakeney National Nature Reserve" and the land spit is called "Blakeney Point". Presumably the spit is where there is dry land and presumably the nature reserve includes the nearby sea (areas covered with seawater, brackish water, or tidal zones). The introduction should explain the geography better and the size of the spit and the outlines of the reserve. The website says that the spit is a 3-mile long spit of sand and shingle and this is easy to find on this page of the nature reserve's website, but not in the introduction of the article. I think that further vagueness about the definitions of the Blackey Point spit and the nature reserve is found in the introduction of the article in this line; "Its main feature is a shingle spit, but it also includes salt marshes, sand dunes and reclaimed farmland." Presumably, from the definition of a spit, that salt marshes (not dry land) are not part of a spit or at least from the website, which says that the spit is shingle and sand. Snowman (talk) 15:16, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • In accordance with normal practice, I've used the commonly used name for the site, as with my other nature reserve articles. The whole reserve site is consistently referred to as "Blakeney Point" in the literature, even when talking about the wet bits. The Salah ref (54) uses this name when discussing marine diatoms, and the first of the cited texts, Allison and Morley, also does, despite having sections on the botany of the salt marshes, marine invertebrates and the like. I've added the length to the lead, and tweaked the first para slightly. The NT figure is wrong. Although there is some scope for error in measuring the length of a dynamic spit, all the book sources give figures of more than 4 miles, and it's getting longer, not shorter, I suspect they have used the walk to the old lifeboat house, rather than the full length, but I don't know Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that your use of "Blackey Point" for the nature reserve may be acceptable or not, but what seems odd to me treating the natures reserve as being synonymous with the spit. I think that there are specific definitions in geology for various structures of a spit and I think that some geological terms are not used correctly here resulting in a confused introduction. In particular, I have just read that a salt marsh and an estuary behind a spit not part of the spit according to the largely unreferenced Wiki articles shoal and spit (landform); however, I presume that both the salt marsh and estuary are part of the nature reserve, since they contain a lot of vegetation suitable for birds. I am puzzled by inconsistencies. If the boundaries of the nature reserve and the spit are different, as linked Wiki articles seem to suggest, then I think that it would be better to use "Blackly Point Nature Reserve" or Blackly Point spit" when referring to one of them to reduce confusion. Snowman (talk) 16:41, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see from your recent edits that you largely agree with this. I have made some edits to the introduction. This is almost sorted out, but I remain unclear if the nature reserve includes the inter-tidal zones, mudflats, and an estuary (if there is one). Snowman (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've added tidal mudflats to the lead, since these become vegetated to create the saltmarsh. The channel of the River Glaven is open water, so is not tidal salt marsh or mud flats, and is not part of the reserve. Estuary is misleading, since this includes the tidal areas and the river channel. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 18:13, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Morston Quay" is capitalised on the national trust's website. Should it be capitalised in the article? Snowman (talk) 14:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The village is Morston, so to me it should be Morston quay. However, you are correct to say that several sites capitalise the second word. I've rephrased as "the quay at Morston to avoid ambiguity Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "... along with Holme Dunes and Holkham dunes, ...". To me this looks odd because "Dunes" is capitalised in the former but not the latter. Snowman (talk) 15:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nevertheless, it's correct. Holme Dunes is the name of the reserve, Holkham dunes are the dunes at Holkham NNR Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Possible omission: The Pedders Way goes through part of the nature reserve according to the map. The Norfolk Coast Path is near by too. Snowman (talk) 21:40, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could not find referenced text about the farmland, but I might have missed it. Snowman (talk) 22:10, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's mentioned in the lead as a habitat, and in Threats, but I agree that it's easy to miss, I've added a referenced sentence to para 2 of Description. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I gather that "samphire" could refer to any of several plants. I think that it would be worthwhile to include the binomial name of the samphire species that are found in the reserve. Snowman (talk) 18:09, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've only used binomials for a few insects where I can't find an English name, and I don't want to do this for all the plants, but I've changed both mentions to "European glasswort", and the link goes to Salicornia europaea anyway, since that's how the plant project names its articles Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:32, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note 1 probably needs an in-line reference. Snowman (talk) 18:25, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have re-formatted using a template, which is probably more suitable here. Snowman (talk) 15:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • May be more informative if more ducks and wildfowl were listed instead of just two species. Snowman (talk) 18:36, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not convinced that "Threats" is the best name for the last section. Perhaps, "Coastal erosion" or something to suggest remodelling of the coastline would be better. Snowman (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to "Coastal changes", since the spit is growing westwards, I don't think "erosion" is appropriate
  • Is the natural coastal erosion and remodelling process at the reserve affected by any sea wall developments far away? Movement of sand and shingle is a complicated process and protection of one portion of coast can cause inadequate sand and shingle drift that other parts of the coast might need. Snowman (talk) 20:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is complicated, but I haven't come across anything that suggests an effect such as you describe. Most of this coast is undefended other than by natural features such as cliffs, dunes or salt marshes, and the fairly limited sea defences at Sheringham and Cromer don't seem to get a mention as an influence. I've added the following, with a new ref The growth is thought to have been fuelled by the reclamation of the salt marshes along this coast in recent centuries, which removed a natural barrier to the movement of shingle. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:32, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, but have you considered making a map of the point using OSM? It would be good to see the point clearly. Quality is not prefect but you can tart up the map on paint and add labels of course.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:43, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for looking. I've added this map as an external link, and it's something I might well do next time around. I find map-making hard work, and I don't want to do a second map when I have spent a good deal of time doing the first. It wouldn't be just adding labels, the map would need extensive editing to show the habitats more accurately, add the reserve boundary, etc Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see. New text may need rephrasing slightly. I think that "fuelled" is confusing, since the power for coastal remodelling is from the weather (sun's heat) and tides (celestial mechanics). Perhaps use "accelerated" or "enhanced" instead. Snowman (talk) 15:44, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Map key: next to the pink (looks that colour on my screen) square it says "Roads and car parks". I can see the roads on the map, but I can not see any car parks. Why is this? Snowman (talk) 15:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was trying to limit the size of the legend, now made it clear that the circles are the carparks, one in each of the villages and one at Cley beach (all are outside the reserve, but it seemed harmless enough info) Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • That explains it. I assumed wrongly that the circles were villages. Snowman (talk) 16:39, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Caption says; "Samphire can be cooked like asparagus." If this is referenced in the article, then I have missed it. The caption is not helpful for people that do not know how to cook asparagus. Snowman (talk) 16:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • last para of "Plants" gives cooking, now removed cooking phrase from caption since I obviously can't put all that there Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that it can be eaten without being cooked; I recall people on TV going for a walk and eating it raw and saying how good it is. Snowman (talk) 16:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support FA status. I edit bird pages so I may have a conflict of interest; nevertheless, I have tried to be objective. Snowman (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • thanks for review and support, I'll see if I can find I've added an RS for raw samphire Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate note -- Hi Jim, just one thing, I'd expect to see a citation closing off the first para under National Trust era. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, fell off when I split a paragraph a few days ago, glued back on now, thanks Jimfbleak - talk to me? 05:39, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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