User talk:Yintan/Archives/2013/July

Thanks

Thanks, Yintan, for all you do on Wikipedia, especially deleting vandalism on my personal pages. Regards, Pinethicket (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

No sweat  Yintan  22:26, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

Kinsella sock drawer

Probably time to get 216.191.220.178 added to the Kinsellawarren sock drawer. Spoonkymonkey (talk) 15:45, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it's me, but I have no idea why you're telling me this. Am I missing something?  Yintan  21:28, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

You post/comment

Hi Yintan,

I noticed you posted on my talk page the following

Hello, I'm Yintan. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Kumayl ibn Ziyad seemed less than neutral to me, so I removed it for now. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page.

I have not taken any sides. The edits so far I have posted have references, except the introduction (which is just a summary of what is to come). If you dont know Kumayl was a extremely loyal companion of Imam Ali. Several history books and scholars have confirmed it. But thank you for reminding me I will not try to put my own personal opinions on his article page.

Hi Zabranos. I saw you did a lot of work on the article but the tone is not encyclopedic. Sentences like "Since then he developed a deep love and urning for Imam Ali" or "The choice to remain patient left a monumental effect in the minds of the Yemenis" aren't neutral. Also, the 'Converting to Islam' section is very long. It would be nice if you could work on that (by the way, please sign your posts). If you need help with something, let me know. Thanks,  Yintan  23:49, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi,

Thanks for the heads up. I understand that it looks bias but I have found quotes from Kumyl who says himself that he loves Imam Ali and that Imam Ali manners and teaching left a monumental effect on the Yemeni people otherwise they would have never converted. I will provide these references later on as i continue to develop it. But I dont mean to attack you or give false opinions. Sorry if I hurt your feeling/attacked you.

No, no, I don't feel attacked at all. Don't get me wrong. I'm just trying to point you in the right direction.  Yintan  00:08, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Nicola Legrottaglie - Reply

Hi there YINTAN, AL here,

i know you did not do it on purpose and it was a well-intended message, but i did not add any link nor did i remove anything (in the links section or anywhere in the article), i changed the title of the last one from FAN CLUB to FANSITE. OK?

Attentively, from Portugal --AL (talk) 22:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct, my bad. Sorry. I'll strike the message.  Yintan  23:02, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Keep it up, no worries! --AL (talk) 23:03, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Croxton Kerrial

Should we ask for temporary protection of some kind? How does this work? I think we are dealing with a teenager, who will get bored with this fairly quickly. Bmcln1 (talk) 06:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. Pages are only protected when there's persistent vandalism. That's not the case here. You can file a request for protection at WP:PADLOCK but it will almost certainly be rejected. We'll just have to keep an eye on the article. Cheers,  Yintan  09:26, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Adly Mansour Image

Hi there, I had added a link to Wiki image of Adely Mansour Arabic Wiki page. Some one else added a link to the same image.

Both links works fine and the image is of the same guy

The copyright status of these images is disputed. By the way, please sign your posts. Thanks,  Yintan  12:45, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

The same image I added was added again. Amr.eladawy (talk)

Yep, and it's nominated for deletion too. I don't think it's going to last.  Yintan  21:53, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

External links

Hi, Yintan

I just read the guidelines about links and I admit that I was wrong for added the twitter page links since it actually being listed already on the Korean version of the page on Korean Wikipedia. But, the first link indeed directly leading to the official homepage of Weekly Idol on MBC Every 1 website and fulfilled the criteria for the link that can normally be linked to the page. So, is it okay for me to keep the first link on "External links" section of Weekly Idol page?

--FirstStooge (talk) 12:17, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello. The first link (MBC) is fine, that's why I left it intact. . Kind regards,  Yintan  12:39, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Crass

Hi. Thanks for your help. I've relisted the article for GA.  Yintan  15:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

External links

Kindly consider re-adding the website links to List of museums in Central Texas in consideration of WP:ELOFFICIAL. Your edit summary characterizing them as "spam links" is quite misleading. Also, the links in question are not in violation of WP:ELNO#EL20 (viz. "mainly").

You might consider making them into references as suggested in this discussion[1]. Thanks. Woodshed (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Woodshed. I removed the links because, as WP:ELNO explains, "Stand-alone lists or embedded lists should not be composed mainly of external links". Now we can of course argue about the meaning of "mainly" in this case, but I feel that URLs from musea that (for example) don't even have an article on WP (quite a few red links in there) can certainly be removed. Also, per WP:ELPOINTS, the links shouldn't be in the article/list but in an external links section. Finally, links to official sites of subjects usually go in the subject's article or infobox, not in lists of WP articles. That's why I removed them. Turning them into refs is of course an option, but then again, using Museum X's website as a source for claims about Museum X isn't really a third party source, is it? Kind regards,  Yintan  09:26, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I think, frankly, policy is not particularly clear about this. Some of the guidelines you cite apply to articles (not lists). This isn't an article. This is a list. It's a list of things based on a specific, limited geography. It is unlikely that some (many?) of these musea would qualify for their own article under the GNG, but they're appropriate for inclusion in this list. In fact, the part of WP:ELNO you didn't quote says: "This does not apply if the external link is serving as a citation for a stand-alone list entry that otherwise meets that list's inclusion criteria."

Ultimately, I don't feel your edits improved Wikipedia. (That is, of course, also subjective.) I would like for you to consider restoring them. Thanks. Woodshed (talk) 00:21, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

You're right, policy is a bit unclear and we could throw WP:SOMETHINGs at eachother until the cows come home. The quote "This does not apply if the external link is serving as a citation for a stand-alone list entry" for example is open to misinterpretation because citations need to be third party, as I explained earlier in my 'Museum X' example. Your interpretation of the line is different and, in my opinion, wrong. I agree there is indeed a gray area but I also think that my edits were well within WP guidelines: external links should be in an External Links section, unless used as refs. However, self referential refs are to be avoided, so the website of The Toilet Museum can't be used as a ref for The Toilet Museum. You are of course free to disagree and act accordingly, that's up to you. Regards,  Yintan  09:23, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Whistle film changes

Hi..I cannot believe you have deleted all that I wrote. I used Pizza film as a reference as this film is a remake of the same film. However, I have made the changes and added links specific to this film in references. Can you please revert?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bshilpaa (talk • contribs) 09:48, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Bshilpaa. I removed your edits for a number of reasons. They were unsourced (if you make claims like "It's the first time in history that...", you need to provide a reliable source. The external links you added shouldn't be there and were already in the article as references. The plot you added was incomplete and ended with "The rest of the plot is best left unsaid so that the suspense is not spoilt and the viewer can enjoy the same!" which goes against WP:FILMPLOT. Kind regards,  Yintan  10:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

edit muslim rajput

Dear sir i edit muslim rajput page and add famous muslim rajput kindly readd my article thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Faisalvm1234 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Faisalvm. I undid your edit[2] because it was unsourced, and so did User:Sitush a little later[3]. We both left messages on your Talk page explaining this. Kind regards,  Yintan  21:52, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Cypriot Enclaves

Your removing of the corrections to the Turkish Cypriot Enclaves was wrong. Firstly, Turkey, Britain & Greece are guarantor powers over Cyprus & each have the right to intervene to protect they're communities. It was an intervention NOT AN INVASION. BUSH & OBAMA INVADING IRAQ & LIBYA ARE INVASIONS. http://www.mfa.gr/images/docs/kypriako/treaty_of_guarantee.pdf Do the Jews voluntarily leave they're positions in the German Government before WW2? The Turkish Cypriots were forced out by Makarios the Eoka Greek Terrorist. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/ THE GENOCIDE FILES by Harry Scott Gibbons http://www.amazon.co.uk/Genocide-Files-Harry-Scott-Gibbons/dp/0951446428 http://www.BritishCyprusMemorial.org if you're interested in Makarios, Grivas, Sampson Eoka Greek Terrorist Massacres of nearly 400 Britons in Cyprus from 1955-1960 before the Pre-Bosnian GENOCIDE of Turkish Cypriots from 1963-1974 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aryana2013 (talk • contribs) 12:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

It has already been explained on your Talk page, please read WP:NPOV and WP:RS. You're the one labelling groups of people 'terrorists' without any sources. You're using misleading edit summaries too. Your edits are bordering on vandalism and all of them have been reverted by various editors (User:Lfdder, User:Seric2, User:Jamesx12345, User:Jingiby, etc). I strongly suggest you discuss your views on the Talk pages of the articles first. Could save you a lot of trouble. Regards,  Yintan  14:07, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Re: Strawweight (MMA)

Dear Mr. Yintan,

Not sure who you are or what authority you have in the sport of Mixed Martial Arts but, i am the person who coined the term, "Strawweight" (115lbs), in MMA.

WORLD LIGHT FLYWEIGHT RANKINGS (115lbs) - Mixed Martial Arts Forum http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&forum=1&thread=1334715&page=2

Seems to me it would be logical to add this info to that page, as very few people know anything about the Strawweight division. Even hardcore fans of the sport know next to nothing about it. I have kept & managed the oldest MMA Rankings in the sport, since 1997. There are few who know more about it's history than me. I was also the very first to rank fighters from 115lbs and up (since 1999).

By the way, speaking of inappropriate, since you have provided no credentials, as to your position with the sport of MMA, i think it very unprofessional and inappropriate to remove such without first researching the source. Please explain to me your position and why you think you have such authority.

Regards, Shano

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanoknowsmma (talk • contribs)

This is not about authority in MMA, this is about Wikipedia guidelines. The link you provided as a ref was nothing but one of your own posts on a public forum. Those aren't considered proper sources. Which is why User:Phospheros removed it again when you re-added it later. So before you start throwing phrases like "very unprofessional and inappropriate" around, please familiarize yourself with the WP guidelines. Also, don't forget to sign your posts. Thanks,  Yintan  06:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Yintan,

Please familiarize yourself with common sense and practicality. Not everyone is a geek. Your name is "Yintan", mine is Shano. You saw that i signed my name. Now grow up and act like a human being...if you even are one. I am addressing YOU...not Wikipedia. It was YOU who contacted me. Now get off your high horse and get some common sense into that head of yours! When you learn to properly address a person, and behave as a professional, then you will EARN respect. Not until then. Regards, Shane "Braddah Shano" McFarland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanoknowsmma (talk • contribs) 17:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point so completely it's not even funny. As I explained above, I contacted you because your edits didn't follow WP guidelines. That's got nothing to do with being a geek or not, that's how this site is run. Furthermore, I can assure you I'm grown up and a human being. Also, signing your posts "Shano" or "Shane Braddah Shano McFarland" is virtually useless when your WP username is Shanoknowsmma. It's a hassle to find out which article you're even talking about if you don't use the username that's connected with your edits. Again, I suggest you familiarize yourself with WP guidelines and policies, as has already been suggested on your Talk page a number of times by various editors. The WP community has set these policies and all editors are expected to follow them. If you need more info, check out WP:HELP. Now if you'll excuse me, my high horse needs feeding. Regards,  Yintan  21:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Re: Strawweight (MMA)

Dear Mr. Yintan,

Not sure who you are or what authority you have in the sport of Mixed Martial Arts but, i am the person who coined the term, "Strawweight" (115lbs), in MMA.

WORLD LIGHT FLYWEIGHT RANKINGS (115lbs) - Mixed Martial Arts Forum http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/mma.cfm?go=forum.posts&forum=1&thread=1334715&page=2

Seems to me it would be logical to add this info to that page, as very few people know anything about the Strawweight division. Even hardcore fans of the sport know next to nothing about it. I have kept & managed the oldest MMA Rankings in the sport, since 1997. There are few who know more about it's history than me. I was also the very first to rank fighters from 115lbs and up (since 1999).

By the way, speaking of inappropriate, since you have provided no credentials, as to your position with the sport of MMA, i think it very unprofessional and inappropriate to remove such without first researching the source. Please explain to me your position and why you think you have such authority.

Regards, Shano

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanoknowsmma (talk • contribs)

This is not about authority in MMA, this is about Wikipedia guidelines. The link you provided as a ref was nothing but one of your own posts on a public forum. Those aren't considered proper sources. Which is why User:Phospheros removed it again when you re-added it later. So before you start throwing phrases like "very unprofessional and inappropriate" around, please familiarize yourself with the WP guidelines. Also, don't forget to sign your posts. Thanks,  Yintan  06:43, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Yintan,

Please familiarize yourself with common sense and practicality. Not everyone is a geek. Your name is "Yintan", mine is Shano. You saw that i signed my name. Now grow up and act like a human being...if you even are one. I am addressing YOU...not Wikipedia. It was YOU who contacted me. Now get off your high horse and get some common sense into that head of yours! When you learn to properly address a person, and behave as a professional, then you will EARN respect. Not until then. Regards, Shane "Braddah Shano" McFarland — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shanoknowsmma (talk • contribs) 17:06, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

You're missing the point so completely it's not even funny. As I explained above, I contacted you because your edits didn't follow WP guidelines. That's got nothing to do with being a geek or not, that's how this site is run. Furthermore, I can assure you I'm grown up and a human being. Also, signing your posts "Shano" or "Shane Braddah Shano McFarland" is virtually useless when your WP username is Shanoknowsmma. It's a hassle to find out which article you're even talking about if you don't use the username that's connected with your edits. Again, I suggest you familiarize yourself with WP guidelines and policies, as has already been suggested on your Talk page a number of times by various editors. The WP community has set these policies and all editors are expected to follow them. If you need more info, check out WP:HELP. Now if you'll excuse me, my high horse needs feeding. Regards,  Yintan  21:01, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Amazing

Aren't we amazing? James^x12345 21:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

It's a pleasure doing business with you  Yintan  21:44, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Australian vehicle number plates

Hey there, I am a regular use of this wikipedia and is a member of the Number Plates Collectors Club of Australia - I had to undo your latest changes as the info I have put in are the most accurate and up to date in Australia.

Northern Territory motorcycles are in fact no longer displaying registration stickers in NT, Australia.

I would appreciate if the info contained in this Australian Vehicle Number Plates be left alone as I am not a regular wikipedia vandal.

Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Welldone65 (talk • contribs) 09:59, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi. I undid your edit because you added about 10 photographs of the same license plate to the article and also introduced some code errors. I don't know if you noticed it, but that's not a good idea. You might want to check before you revert me again. Regards,  Yintan  10:04, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi - No I didn't put these 10 photos, I have no idea what it has happened but its ok to get rid of them to cleanse the page. The recent revision you did it looks fine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Welldone65 (talk • contribs) 13:55, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

You did add them with the new Visual Editor. Maybe you didn't notice. Never mind, they're gone now.  Yintan  14:37, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Flight Focus Information

Dear Yintan I also present myslef. My name is Emmanuel and I work for the marketing department of Flight Focus. I try since the beginning of the week to update our page, so that it contains more information about our company. And this impartially! I try to correct it, and to change the article, but it stay online 1h maximum ... Regarding the pictures, its all allowed to be published according to our rights. In different parts, I just want to add a company history section, and a second on the technology used for its aeronautical products. We take the same basis as our competitors. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnAir_ (telecommunications) Thank you for your understanding, have a great day.

Emmanuel — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emma masia (talk • contribs) 02:51, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Emmanuel. The images you added were deleted because they are copyrighted, yet you had uploaded them to Commons and claimed they were your own work. Please read WP:COPYRIGHT and WP:NONFREE for more info on that. Texts you added were deleted because they were biased and not neutral ("Providing end-to-end vertical integration services from designand in-house certification to technical support and system upgrades, 100+ aircrafts are already equipped with the company’s proven technology and turnkey expertise"). More about that on WP:NPOV. Also, everything you added was unsourced. WP needs verifyable, third party sources in articles, see WP:SOURCE. Finally, since you (obviously) work for the marketing company of Flight Focus, you (could) have a conflict of interest as well. See WP:COI. In short, your edits ignore so many Wikipedia guidelines, it's no wonder they are removed within minutes. I hope the WP information I linked to above will point you in the right direction. Kind regards,  Yintan  10:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

thank you

correction need to be made or added the original full name not the nick name. Al Sharif Ghalib Bin Musaad Bin Saeed Bin Saad. His home Castle was Jiyad castel in Mecca removed now the clock towers in Mecca.another historical location in Mecca Dar Al Bayadia.

Thank you for your updates and interest on my Grand father family history.Book been mentioned in Army in the Sand and so many other books you can Google it for conformation and more facts.

sincerely, amtrs1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.49.242.108 (talk) 11:56, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I know what you're talking about. I haven't updated anything about Al Sharif Ghalib Bin Musaad Bin Saeed Bin Saad.  Yintan  22:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Erroneous warning tag

Oops, I had copied that warning tag onto JL's talk page. I was in a hurry and wanted to post a third warning but I didn't stop to think which one I should use; I just copied one that had been used before in the previous edit-warring phase, but instead of being a COI or edit-warring tag, it was that one for unsourced material. I didn't even realize that I had left your name on there (which is why I signed it myself). Glad you removed it as it didn't make sense either way. I'll be more careful from now on. Softlavender (talk) 22:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Okay, that's one mystery solved . No worries. Cheers,  Yintan  22:18, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan

Hi Yintan, you say that my comments were "less than neutral" for you and you needed to remove them. This is my band whose page I am editing, and should have the authority to do so. Tell me what I can do so I don't run into problems when I update our wikipedia page.

Thank you

James

Hi James.You might want to read WP:RS, WP:NEUTRAL and WP:TONE. Also, since this is your band, WP:COI. And finally, since the article is tagged for deletion, WP:BAND. I don't think the Blind Owl Band meets the criteria for inclusion, if I'm honest. Cheers,  Yintan  22:11, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Flight Focus

Hello Yintan

Thank you very much for the feedback, your help is invaluable.

We wish to update our Wikipedia, it is possible that you make us more constructive feedback, which helps us to make a Wikipedia in the rules. From our side, we have revised the text to make it more neutral. Regarding the picture, I'll change that! There is no conflict of interest, many companies present their business in this way on Wikipedia.

In addition, I want to reference different links up with our content.

Thank you for all

Emmanuel — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emma masia (talk • contribs) 02:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Emmanuel. I really don't know what else I can tell you, I've already explained it all in my previous message to you. Just click the blue links in that message and I think you'll find all you need to know. Regards,  Yintan  03:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Jspx live demo url removal

Hi Yintan, Good to see you reviewing Jspx-bay page. I did not understand why you had edited the page removing the link to the live demo.

You mentioned that the link is a promotion and a spam. Yet I don't see what is that page promoting for, even more on what basis you classified that page as spam?

Does Google App Engine host spam webpages? does it cause any hurt to you or any other user who had visited the page.

I do appreciate raising our concerns to the talk page before applying an edit to the page. I had reverted your changes (Expect the resizing of the thumbnail) and please don't edit before providing a solid evidence on your concerns.Amr.eladawy (talk)

"Spam" is just a phrase the template uses. Don't take it too literally. I removed the link per WP:EL, you might want to read that. Especially the WP:ADV section. Also, the project's website is already mentioned and linked in its article and infobox. We don't need links to the website's individual sections as well. Cheers,  Yintan  10:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I still see that the article you mentioned doe not apply to the section you deleted. here I am quoting

"links to potentially revenue-generating web pages are not prohibited, even though the website owner might earn money through advertisements, sales, or (in the case of non-profit organizations) donations. Choose which pages to link based on the immediate benefit to Wikipedia readers that click on the link, not based on the organization's tax status or your guess at whether the website's owner might earn money from the link."

Can you name one thing out of the above that the live demo website is trying to promote for? Again, I will revert your changes, and please use the talk page before doing such edits.Amr.eladawy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:46, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

One thing to add, you keep removing a section that contains more than just the link to live demo project. If you really want to remove the "what you call spam" url, then you should be more accurate with your edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amr.eladawy (talk • contribs) 12:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

You are missing the point completely. Again. Here's what I was referring to:

you should avoid linking to a site that you own, maintain, or represent—even if Wikipedia guidelines seem to imply that it may otherwise be linked. When in doubt, you may go to the talk page and let another editor decide. This suggestion is in line with Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest guidelines.

Your connection to that project has already been well established in the past, other editors have told and warned you about it as well, and it's obvious from the project's website[4] that you're involved. So I can't make it any clearer than this. You are the one who should discuss adding it, not the other way around. And then there's the thing about it being already linked from the project's main website, which you seem to ignore. Anyway, I'm sure another editor will eventually remove the link again and I'm honestly not interested in starting an edit war over something this trivial. If you want to make the WP article about your pet project look bad, go right ahead.  Yintan  14:09, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: The Blind Owl Band

Hello Yintan. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of The Blind Owl Band, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: There's plenty enough sources for A7. May well not pass BAND or the GNG, but that can only be decided at AfD. Thank you. GedUK  12:05, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ged. Thanks for your message. I don't feel the need to bring the article to AfD, as it continues to improve since I tagged it yesterday. So as far as I'm concerned it's 'case closed' for now.  Yintan  12:16, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Changes I applied to 'Andy Irvine'

Dear Mr Yintan,

Thank you for informing me of the action you took a few minutes ago, of removing the constructive and editorial enhancements I added today to Andy Irvine's entry in Wikipedia. My goal was to make the existing text more precise, more correct and also more complete.

The changes I applied today are all sourced from Andy Irvine's own official web site, which is already mentioned in the existing References section. Since very little of the existing text referred back to any source, I had assumed that the existing reference to Andy's official website would suffice to justify my own changes.

I have been a 'fan' of Andy Irvine for over 40 years and all I was doing is significantly enhance the Wikipedia entry for this outstanding artist; again, all the information I added today is readily available at Andy's own official website. I happen to know a great deal about Andy Irvine and, if you have similar expert knowledge, then you should easily be able to see that the changes I made today significantly enhance the quality of the information that previously existed.

For example, I changed the order in which his instruments appeared (which I don't think requires a source, since they were all already listed in a different order!) and I also created links to Wikipedia's descriptions of some of these instruments (like the harmonica and hurdy gurdy). I corrected the entry for the instrument that was shown as "guitar-bouzouki", because that linked back to the Wikipedia entry for the "Irish bouzouki" which itself made no reference at all to any "guitar-bouzouki"; it was therefore wrong and my correction of "guitar-bodied bouzouki" was much more precise and in conformance with reality.

I also made the earlier text more precise by adding precise dates which you could find in Andy's biographical pages at his official website.

I also added albums that were missing (in the Patrick Street section) and added the section on Marianne Green's album (which Andy produced and on which he played on each track).

Therefore, please *help* me, Mr Yintan, firstly by re-instating all the textual details you have removed and secondly by accepting that the source (Andy's own official website) is already referenced in the Wikepedia entry itself.

One final change I made is to include a link to the YouTube channel I created 2 years ago as a tribute channel to Andy Irvine, which I called 'AndyzFanz'. As you could tell, I located this link right underneath the existing 'China 2 Galway', which was already listed as a 'fan site'.

Thank you for your help; I certainly hope you will accept my credentials and therefore help me by re-instating the text you removed.

With kind regards; Patrick ('pdebee')

Hi Patrick. I restored some of your text, edited some other parts, and removed a few bits that didn't follow WP guidelines. As I explained on your Talk page earlier, WP needs verifyable, third party, sources. Andy's own website is not considered a third party source. Links to fansites are also unwanted (see WP:EL) and people are referred to by their last name. You might like to take a look at WP:TONE, by the way. I know, sounds all a bit harsh, but I hope this helps. Kind regards,  Yintan  00:24, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Dear Yintan; I was in the process of replying to your message last night when I suffered a computer outage, which took most of today (Tuesday 23 July) to fix; so, I apologise for the delay in acknowledging your response to my earlier post to you.

I want to thank you for your trust in my knowledge on the subject of Andy Irvine and his life & works, and also for agreeing to restore most of the prose that I had added in my update yesterday. Please rest assured that I have exacting standards about 'the truth', which is precisely what compelled me to update Andy's Wikipedia entry in the first place: the earlier prose included loose ends, imprecisions and some of the information was either incomplete or too vague. As you know, I re-arranged the instruments sections to make it more realistic in terms of the importance that each of these instruments represents in Andy's repertoire. I would still like to include a sentence or two about Andy's decision to re-learn to play the 6-string guitar in June 2012, since he gave up playing this instrument in the late 1960s, even though he studied classical guitar with Julian Bream when he was a teenager. On his website, he stated last summer that he had located his old Gibson L0 guitar and that he was re-learning to play it in preparation for a new album of Woody Guthrie songs. I therefore feel that it would be fair to add the 'guitar' in th elist of instruments he plays; what is your opinion, please?

I remain quite intrigued by who would qualify as a reliable source for WP's need of a "veryfiable third party". Most of what we know of Andy's career history is thanks to the efforts he invested in documenting his life in the biographical sections of his website. Yes, I agree that he could be deemed too subjective about his own life, but given what we know of his integrity, I have always felt I could trust him. I have met him many times since 1981 and have always been struck by his honesty. Therefore, perhaps it is I who might qualify as a "reliable, third-party source", even though I am the author of a lot of the corrections I applied yesterday.

In any case, I thank you for your advice on studying these WP sections (WP:EL and WP:TONE), which I will certainly do once I have located them and understood what they stand for. Once again, I've never contributed to WP before now, so I am quite a novice about its mores and etiquette. However, I am grateful to you, Yintan, for your advice and guidance and I will definitely aim to comply with the expected standards.

BTW, I hope I am honouring the correct etiquette for indentation, but please forgive me if I got it wrong on this occasion; I know I'll get better with time. ;-)

So, very many thanks once again for your advice and guidance and, also, for being so respectful of the prose I had submitted yesterday; I am grateful to you for honouring my submissions which, as you know, were intended as an improvement to Andy's Wikipedia entry.

With kind regards for now; I hope we can keep in touch.

Until then, please keep well.

Patrick.

Hi Patrick. You can find the WP guidelines I mentioned in my previous message by clicking on them. And here's the link to the reliable sources guideline: WP:RELY. I realize that finding reliable sources can be a pain and that sometimes you simply can't. Very strictly speaking, this means the information should then not go on Wikipedia. Editors like you, no matter how honest you are or how honourable your intentions might be, don't qualify as such. The readers have to be able to verify the information and just taking your (or my) word for it is not enough. Don't take it personally ;-) Again, this sounds a bit harsh but that's how the wiki works. There's more about that at WP:NOTTRUTH. If you need any help with finding WP guidelines or other WP-related stuff, let me know, I'm happy to help. Kind regards,  Yintan  21:37, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

By the way, please sign your posts. See WP:SIGHOW. Cheers,  Yintan  21:40, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan; Many thanks for your prompt and most helpful reply. I do appreciate your patience with me as a new editor and your guidance will greatly assist me in being able to conform fully with the guidelines and etiquette before too long; so, thank you very much for your assistance there. Your explanation on reliable sources makes abundant sense to me and it is only fair that a well-run organisation requires rules that help secure and protect the quality of content. I will do my utmost to honour WP's editorial requirements and to link back to "reliable, third- party sources" whenever I can find them. For example, would the book written by the Irish journalist Leagues O'Toole (The Humours of Planxty) be considered one such? Thank you for letting me know. If so, I will add this book in the Reference section, and also add other publications, such as Andy's songbook (Aiming for the Heart), which includes the song that's named in the text of his WP entry. By the way, I obtained the list of countries in which Andy has toured from the 'Calendar' he keeps at his web site (launched in 2001); whenever he applies a major update, I print the resulting pages and have kept them in a binder over the years. Finally, as an editor, I would never want to add a single detail that Andy himself would disown; therefore, when I created this list of countries where he performed, I reviewed my printed copies of his past 'Calendar' entries, to ensure I was as complete (and truthful!) as possible. Thank you once again for all your help, Yintan. [I'll now attempt my first signature below; fingers crossed! ;-)]

Pdebee (talk) 09:58, 24 July 2013 (UTC)Patrick ('Pdebee').

OK; now I see how it works!

Pdebee (talk) 10:03, 24 July 2013 (UTC) Patrick.

Hello Patrick. Yes, as far as I can tell The Humours of Planxty would be a fine third party source. I noticed it's already used as a source (once) in the References list. You might also find some useful sources in the Planxty article, by the way. A nice example of good sourcing and citing is the article about Andy's former band mate Christy Moore. Take a look at it, it might be helpful and maybe you can use some of the sources mentioned there as well. Here's something else you can source from, perhaps. Or this Guardian article. If I have some more time later, I'll add some sources to the Irvine article to get you going. Cheers,  Yintan  11:12, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Yintan; Many thanks for your prompt and most helpful reply; that's great! I have already added one ref to O'Toole's book (as a first test on how to use WP's 'ref' feature) so I'll keep going, now that I know I have your blessing. I make a note of your suggestions, including of newspaper articles, although the danger with these is that the references might become orphaned should the papers remove the link to the online article. In any case, I am sure any ref I can add will be an improvement on the little that's already there! Thanks again for your helpful guidance, Yintan. With kind regards; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

I've added a few references to the article and did some minor copy editing. Good luck and happy editing  Yintan  12:25, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello again, Yintan. That is most helpful of you, thank you! As you probably noticed, I first used a basic form of the ref feature, and your example of a standard 'book citation' one was immensely helpful and enabled me to adopt it for the other books I added. By the way, what is the function of the 'name=' tag in the 'cit', please? Yours equates to 'moo'. Also, what creates the superscript letters 'a' and 'b', please? Thank you for letting me know. Returning to the subject of the list of countries where he's performed, would it be acceptable to link back to the 'Calendar' pages at his website? Alternatively, I could append a few words to that paragraph, saying something like: "According to Irvine's own 'Calendar', he continues to perform in Ireland, ..." and then add a ref that links back to the Calendar page at his website. This way, at least there's a named source, even if it relies on his website. Mind you, a list of venues should be solidly reliable, since it's what enables audiences to attend his performances, and him to earn a living! Thank you for all your great help, Yintan, and also for your patience with me, as I learn how to do all these wonderful things! I'd like to think the article will look quite a lot better by the time I've gone through it again and added relevant references. Thanks once again for all your help, Yintan!! Patrick. ;-)) Pdebee (talk) 14:26, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. I added the <ref name=culture2012> tag, amongst others. The name tag is used when you want to use the same source as a ref for a number of things. See WP:REFNAME for more info on how that works. That's also what automatically adds the a,b,(etc) characters; one character for everytime the ref is used in the article. Linking back to Irvine's calendar on his own site for reference is strictly speaking not acceptable but I don't think many people will have a problem with it. Still, other sources are very much preferred. If you can't source the individual countries, I suggest to just stick with "Europe" which now is, more or less, sourced. Cheers,  Yintan  14:38, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Yintan; I am making slow progress with adding references to this article but I feel like I am 'on a roll' now; so, I hope you won't mind if I start this paragraph without any indentations, so as to reset our continued exchanges onto a 'new line', so to speak. As you can see, I've now got the hang of the effort to add these references and I'll just keep going; however, I don't think I could have been as productive as this if I hadn't benefited from your advice and guidance, especially with the examples you provided so graciously; so, thank you once again for your generous spirit of cooperation. Once I have added the relevant references to O'Toole's book, I will expand my research more widely, focusing mainly on verifiable articles written by journalists (such as Colin Harper's article on Sweeney's Men, published in 'Mojo' in 2003). If all goes as well as today, I expect to be done with all the references work in a few days' time.

Then, I will ask you to review it one more time, perhaps with the goal of determining whether or not it might be time to remove the boxed comment at the very top of the article, which asked for references to reliable sources. In other words, I'd like to make progress towards enabling this article to enjoy a better standing in the eyes of WP reviewers like yourself. But, if more work is needed, then I am hopeful you will continue to guide and help me achieve that goal. Thank you for your consideration in this matter, Yintan.

It's bed time here in the UK, so I'll close shop for now and hope to hear from you again soon, at your convenience. Until then, very many thanks once again for all your great assiatance, and for your patience with me; all of it is very much appreciated.

With kind regards for now; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 22:31, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Patrick. As I've said before, I'm happy to help so if there's anything you need, let me know. The 'additional citations' banner at the top of the page can be removed (or added) by anybody, so if you feel you've added enough sources (and you sure have added a lot) then feel free to remove it. You have as much right to do that as anybody else. Cheers,  Yintan  22:09, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Andy Irvine continued

Hello Yintan. Thank you *so* much for bestowing a 'barnstar' on me for the progress made over the past few days! Being a novice contributor to WP, I didn't even know such a prize existed until now! ;-)) ... I can see that it is included in a section that I can edit; so, am I supposed to go in there and add a comment, or something? Thanks for your guidance here. Also, about removing the 'additional citations' banner; is that achieved by simply deleting the first line at the very top of the article (which is currently showing: "{{BLP sources|date=October 2011}}")? If so, then yes, I would like to do that, as I daresay the justifiable criticism therein is certainly much less warranted now than it was only a few days ago; I am heartened by the impression this is your opinion also. So, thank you for letting me know how to remove this box and I'll do it with your blessing. For now, I am certainly a lot happier about the article than when I started a few days ago, although I'll definitely continue to add as many references as I can for every single piece of information in the article, by seeking these online in the near future (as you probably noticed, I hitherto relied mainly on hardcopy documents I hold at home, such as the O'Toole book and the Folk Roots & Frets magasines I kept over the years. It'll be a lot easier, I think, to find additional, reliable journalistic sources once I go online; thanks once again for the initial suggestion you made about this approach a few days ago. Finally, I'd like to add a new section between 'Early Years' and ' Music Career', with a title like 'Woody Guthrie Influences' (for example), as I have a few published sources that include quite a few quotes by Irvine himself on Guthrie's impact on him from his adolescent years onwards. Would that be OK, in your opinion? Many thanks for letting me know; your continued assistance will ensure I do this correctly. Until then, please keep well and thank you once again for the 'barnstar'! ;-)) Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Wooops! Sorry! ... When I inserted the string of characters: { { B L P s o u r c e s | d a t e = O c t o b e r 2 0 1 1 } } ; I hadn't realised the system would actually process it and re-created the box itself in the text of my previous update itself! It also messed up the indentation; well, one's learning every day! Thank you for your indulgence... ;-)) Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:24, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Patrick. I cut our dialogue in two for easier editing. Yes, removing that {{BLP sources|date=October 2011}} code will remove the banner. Tip: next time you want to quote code in a message, put it between "nowiki" tags. That stops it from being processed by the system. You can see these tags in this text when you edit this message. I also added them to your message above to stop the banner from appearing again ;-) About the new Woodie Guthrie section: you can of course add what you want, but try not to go too deep into details. A lot of artists' bios suffer from 'fancruft': overly detailed trivia that's not really all that important. I can't judge how important Guthrie has been for Irvine's career, but it's something to keep in mind. If you can get the same info across in (for example) one or two sourced lines of text, I wouldn't make it a section. But that's just my opinion. Enjoy the Barnstar, it's very well deserved. No, you don't have to answer or add to it. Like I said, just polish it once a month.  Yintan  12:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hello Yintan. Thank you for your latest reply and for opening another section in your Talk page for our continued communications. I am grateful to you for teaching me all these wikitricks ;-)) and I'll bear them in mind. Thank you for your advice about the danger of 'fancruft' [I'd never heard that amusing word before! ;-D...]. What I wanted to achieve is an informative transition from 'Early Years' to 'Music Career' that would help answer the question: "How is it possible that someone who studied classical guitar with Julian Bream could have ended up playing folk music on mandolin and harmonica?" There was always an inherent contradiction that certainly puzzled me in the early years and I wanted to address and resolve that issue upfront. The text I entered in the new 'Woody Guthrie Influences' section was the key that resolved this issue for me at the time I read it in the Frets interview of 1985 (long before the Internet and Andy's own web site, of course). I therefore thought that these six short paragraphs, in Andy's own words, would do the trick. I daresay that, by the time the reader then reaches the 'Music Career' section, the scene will have been set for the start, in 1962, of Andy's new career as a folk musician in Ireland. I am hopeful that you will view this new section in the same light but, as always, I remain open to your advice and suggestions.

Of course, I spent most of this week's effort in sorting out the text of 'Music Career', including the provision of citations from reliable, third party sources. It's been hard work but I have enjoyed the task immensely, especially since that text looks a great deal more structured, complete and precise than it was earlier this week! And, of course, that was my main objective, as I had despaired over the years about the state of the article. In my opinion, there is still scope for expanding the text a little bit more about the two decades of 1992-2012, especially with regard to 'Mozaik' and 'LAPD', and I would like to do this in the latter part of next week, by which time I will have taken delivery of my brand-new, super-fast, quad-cored computer! For now, though, I believe the article is in good standing (or at least much better than it was a week ago) and I hope it will do for now. Once my new kit is operational, I will focus my research for citations on the online articles produced by quality newspapers or magazines; we'll see.

Finally, you will have noticed that I also created a new short section on Andy's 'Commitment to Social Justice'. Please rest assured that, personally, I certainly do not want to engage in politics online but, rather, I wanted to segregate that particular aspect of Andy's life from the music (although I suspect he wouldn't see it that way himself). Basically, I wanted to create a section where others can develop that particular subject if they want to, while I shall remain interested mainly in the music aspect. Quite frankly, I do not care very much for the paragraph about Royal Dutch Shell, but I am sure I am expected to respect the wishes of the person(s) who decided to submit it in the first place; so, there it stays.

Very many thanks once again for all your helpful, generous and patient assistance, Yintan; I am sure I would never have gone this far so quickly if you hadn't been there to assist and advice! And it was especially nice to see my efforts appreciated; so, thank you once again for your praise. All that's left for me to do now is to book a monthly reminder in my calendar, for a recurring task called: 'Today is Barnstar Polishing Day!!!' ;-D ... With kind regards; Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 22:41, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Patrick. Two quick remarks about the Guthrie quotations section. There's a lot of quotes, see WP:QUOTE, and they don't follow the Manual of Style, see MOS:QUOTE. Maybe you could cut down on the quoting a bit? Quotes are generally copyrighted and although there is some room for 'fair use', they shouldn' be overused. I'm not saying you are overusing but it is a lot of quoting, I think. Just my two cents, do with it what you like. Cheers,  Yintan  11:10, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan. Many thanks for your suggestions on my use of quotes. On the point of following the correct style, I've now looked into this (TY for the links) and can see I should have used ellipses instead of brackets for omitted material; of course, I can easily change that and will do it at once after this reply. If there is anything else I should do, please kindly suggest briefly what it is and I'll go to the manual and find out how to do it. On the other point you made, concerning the amount of quoting in that section: I am really thorn; on the one hand, I strongly wish to comply with the rules and remain a good 'wiki-citizen'. On the other hand, I do feel that the explanation provided by Irvine himself is quite illuminating about the genesis of such an influential change in his formative years; the discovery of Woody Guthrie clearly had a major impact on him at the time, and therefore propulsed his life in a completely different direction: from acting and playing classical guitar in England to becoming a folk musician and singer/songwriter playing mandolin and harmonica in Ireland. Looking back again at the quoted text in that Woody Guthrie section, I find it difficult to pare down on the quantity of prose without dimnishing the vivacity of the story he tells us. Maybe I am too close to it to be able to apply the required surgery... I appreciate you giving me the latitude and freedom to decide, although I'd still like to conform as much as possible to your advice. I'll see what I can do to compact Irvine's quote on Guthrie and will do my best to follow your advice, as ever. With kind regards for now :-); Patrick. Pdebee (talk) 11:47, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yintan. OK; I've now replaced brackets with ellipses to indicate omitted text and also cut down the amount of quoted text without taking anything away from the gist of the story Irvine tells us. I think that what is left gives enough information while also keeping the original vivacity I wanted the article to convey. Please let me know what you think, whenever convenient? Thank you. With kind regards for now; Patrick. :-) Pdebee (talk) 14:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

2013 MTV Video Music Awards

Hi Yintan, "What a beautiful name", I am too close to Britney's manager, Adam Leber if you know him, anyways, he is my cousin and I am the biggest Britney fan on earth, I have no source for what I wrote because I am the first to talk about it, it's obvious ! and it's okey if you deleted it, ... ! have a good day Yintan (BTW: I LOVE YOUR NAME) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.251.174.66 (talk) 11:05, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks ;-) Yes, you have to be able to source statements like that. Cheers,  Yintan  11:20, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit of 'Spain' section in 'Doctor of Philosophy'

Hello, Yintan.

I have edited the "Spain" section in the article "Doctor of Philosophy" because, following and reading the normative references, I have detected that the reference to the Spanish laws in the current article IS OBSOLETE.

I have related and referenced the 2 modifications that have taken place since 1998 (the year referenced in the current article) until today.

I consider is very important for users reading the section "Spain" in the article "Doctor of Philosophy" to have knowledge and references of this normative updates. Particularly, it is very important to know which is the legal norm that applies nowadays.

Finally, I just left the article written in SPANISH because this is my mother language and I am not able to write this comments in a correct English. So that, I have considered more util to allow users to read it correctly in Spanish than to translate it to an incorrect English.

Thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.111.219.237 (talk) 11:17, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is the English Wikipedia. You can't add Spanish sections to articles here. Maybe you can find someone who can translate the Spanish text for you? Cheers,  Yintan  11:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

WTF

I would have NEVER messed up any posts if the wiki staff DID THERE JOB, also that last warning you gave me was STUPID that was not an offensive post, I was just wanting to know why the wiki staff weren't doing there damn job — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdtfbjnkiytf (talk • contribs) 11:40, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

us dollar

I was teaching them a lesson NOT to keep deleating my posts, this NEVER would have happened if wiki staff DOD THEIR JOB! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdtfbjnkiytf (talk • contribs) 11:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

You have obviously no idea what you're doing or how the wiki works, and despite several warnings you don't seem interested in finding out, either. Just look at your contributions. Teaching "them" a lesson by destroying articles? That's not how it works here. Start reading WP:HELP.  Yintan  11:45, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I WAS teaching them a lesson because they will know not to mess with other peoples posts or other people will mess with there post, how could you not see that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rdtfbjnkiytf (talk • contribs) 11:51, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Again, that's not how it works here. And these things you keep messing up aren't "posts" they are sourced encyclopedic articles. Stop the bullshit[5], you're not on Facebook.  Yintan  11:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)