User talk:Huldra/Jisr al-Sidd

My two pennies' worth[edit]

Wow. Didn't know you had this. I tried to figure out about the bridges, too. Here is what I have. It's a terrible mess out there, hard to figure out from just online literature. Asking an archaeologist working at, say, Sinnabra, would be best.

There were probably 4 medieval bridges in the area: the island of Sinnabra had 2, one each over the N (old) and S (new[er]) riverbed of the Jordan coming out of the lake. South of the point where the 2 arms united, there were another 2 bridges. [The Conder & Kitchener map still shows the ancient N arm, by then already disconnected from the lake].

Now comes the confusion: some medieval sources conflate the 2 upper bridges into one, and how the ones down the river were called seems to vary.

You do of course work with the book by Petersen, but there is a lot in this IAA report & discussion [1] by Yardenna Alexandre, who actually excavated some of the ramp of one bridge in 2012-13.

Using both sources and more, I got to this conclusion:

- The 2 bridges to Sinnabra were built by the Umayyads (C7), functioned till C15; the ruins (of one of them, probably the N one) was destroyed by British engineers because they created an overflow to the banks, leading to malaria. No traces left on the surface. Petersen calls it "Umm al-Qanatir". I guess the NORTHERN one is meant.

- The 2 bridges further down the Jordan: Alexandre identifies them, N to S, as 1) Jisr Umm el-Qanatir≡Jisr Semakh, and 2) Jisr es-Sidd. So for her, Umm al-Qanatir is not the northern bridge to Sinnabra over the old arm of the Jordan, but the one over the (united) Jordan, 1 km north of Jisr es-Sidd. I believe Alexandre got it right and Petersen was wrong, she's closer to the local matter and sounds more detailed & logical.

Alexandre indicates that the 2 bridges over the united waters of the Jordan are 1 and 2 km south of the confluence of the 2 arms. So for her the 1st is Umm al-Qanatir, the 2nd is es-Sidd.

Just to mention, the older theory was that the name of "Jisr Sinnabra" was 1st given to the one associated with a stone-built syphon going underneath the river at Sinnabra island, but was later transferred to the Umm Qanatir bridge downstream.

That's that. Now two remarks: Umm al-Qanatir does not literally mean "The building with the arches", but "Mother [umm] of Arches [qanatir]". I'm not sure that Jisr al-Sidd means "Bridge of the Dam", but I might well be wrong: dam, for all I could find out, is sadd, not sidd. Semitic languages take vowels less seriously than Europeam languages do, but some of the vowels belong to the root and don't change. You need an Arabic-speaker, again :-) For now see here [2], here [3] and here [4], the latter has "sadda : stop up [?]" and "sidad: stopping up [sadda]".

I don't think there is anything visible left of Jisr as-Sidd. There still is an earthen bridge approx. at the same site, but possibly a few dozen metres up the river, known as the Alumot Bridge - see here [5], the white ribbon crossing the river at the N section of that westward meander where as-Sidd also used to be.

The whole area is also connected to the C3-C4 "Berenice aqueduct" which took water from the springs of Wadi Fijaz/Fejjas (Fajjaz on the SWP map) to Tiberias. It went a bit further west, along the foot of the hills. ArmindenArminden (talk) 18:10, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that was at least three pennies worth...:) The Alexandre-article, especially. Did you notice the:

Smithline, Howard (2007-02-19). "Jisr es-Sidd" (119). Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

And yeah; one reason I stopped working on this, was all the mix-ups. (I´ve come further on User:Huldra/Jisr al Majami). Note that SWP map 6 shows clearly Umm el Kanatir to the north (on a united Jordan), and Jisr es Sidd to the south. That was why Petersen got me confused.

Also, one thing I should do (one day... ) is to read the William Francis Lynch-book, to see which bridge-remains they actually pictured, Huldra (talk) 21:12, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hurray! Thanks galore for the article. What looks to me like the same aqueduct remains are showing over quite some distance N-S, and I often asked myself if anyone knows the story i.e. if they did any work on them. Lynch... the one guy who sailed down the river & lived to tell (& write) the story... One day, I will read it too. Talking of remote dreams, I'd rather they revived the river enough as to take a kayak ride all the way down to the Dead Sea, but that's more like sci fi. Good night! ArmindenArminden (talk) 23:02, 23 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm[edit]

Having read the sources here and a few others, I am stuck. The big problem here is that Petersen, our most detailed source, never visited this area (there is a dash next to "visited" in his intro). His assumption that these two bridges are the same is in direct contradiction to the SWP map you have on here. I am inclined to trust Kitchener and Conder here, primarily because they actually went there... So we don't have any source which explicitly talks about both bridges at the same time whilst also being consistent with the SWP.

I think the best thing to do is find an editor from the area who is willing to go take some photos of the ruins... Onceinawhile (talk) 00:14, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I have unified the spelling - we have red links for the phantom bridge in 2 articles, at Degania Alef and Jisr Majami; the former had "Jisr es-Sidd", the latter "Jisr al Sidd". I unified to "Jisr es-Sidd", which is conform to the traditionally most widespread English spelling for Palestine (phonetically correct; el- and al- is etymological, and "a" rather than "e" is a recent development). Once there's an article, we can settle for one version or another.

Similarly, for now Umm Juni/Juniyeh is dealt with at Al-Manshiyya, Tiberias. I have left in the Jisr Majami article the form "Umm al-Junah" as it was, and linked it to Al-Manshiyya. However, I don't remember encountering such a spelling and the use of the Arabic article ever before, and there is not a single Google hit for "Umm al-Junah"; where did it come from? Isn't it a typo or faulty transliteration? Arminden (talk) 10:42, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Umm Junieh" still wrongly redirects to Degania Bet, rather than to Degania Alef. Alef started off at Umm Juni/-ieh, the land and memorial still belong to them and is in their care. I have noted this in 8/2016 (see the first comment on that talk page). Can you please change the redirect? Thank you. Arminden (talk) 10:55, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alumot Dam[edit]

@Huldra and Arminden: I have found a satellite view of what I think is / was Jisr al-Sidd here. This is thanks to Zero0000 who showed me this website at Talk:Jisr Majami. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Huldra, Onceinawhile, and Zero0000: Sorry to have you disappointed, but that's the Alumot Dam or earthen bridge, used to control the water level. It's downstream of the Degania dam/ sluice, so I guess it could also have been part of the Rutenberg upstream works of the Naharayim power plant. It could be newer, too, but I doubt it. The only remains of the bridge over the old northern silted-up river branch at Sennabris had to be dug out, I guess this jisr is also fully gone, with only some underground foundation stones left that are waiting to be dug up. About Alumot you can read up a bit here [6]; it's near what they call "Bitunya Waste Water Treatment Plant". Here [7] is a picture. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 21:44, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is that by the bluish stripe, from about 10 o'clock to 4 o'clock? Huldra (talk) 21:47, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The earthen dam is the wide... earth-coloured stripe :) The blueish one is a suspended water pipe that's well visible in the photo and has no significance here. The dam/bridge is used by regular cars to cross the river. Arminden (talk) 22:02, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks. To make it even more confusing, the bridge where the river Jordan left the Sea og Galilee was once (ca 100 years ago) called Sheikh Hussein Bridge ...which is now the name of Jordan River Crossing, much farther south. (Several pictures of the old Sheikh Hussein Bridge at Category:Bridges over the Jordan River over at commons), Huldra (talk) 22:48, 10 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A 1951 high-res map shows two unnamed "ruined bridges" here, about 170m apart along the river. The northern one is at the place discussed here, so it used to be a bridge even if it isn't now. In fact I propose that Once is correct that Jisr el-Sidd used to be here, since the location matches the PEF map perfectly. [I changed my mind, see below.] The southern "ruined bridge" is where you can see the left bank of the river protruding about half way across the river. Zero^talk 02:54, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Zero0000 and Arminden: the Lynch map (which I have added to the draft article) ties well with the SWP map; to my mind it is now certain that Jisr al-Sidd was either where the Alumot Dam now stands, or just a few seconds further south where another pathway stops at the river... I presume there will be a source somewhere about the building of the Alumot Dam which could confirm this. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would think so too. Alumot Dam is just rock and dirt, nothing fancy, I'd be surprised if it were connected with anythi g historical. Maybe they used the same ford location, but maybe not. It seems to me that the Roman aqueduct from Wadi Fidjjas to the foot of Mount Berenike at Tiberias once passed along the left bank of the Jordan. Maybe it helps, maybe not. Wild boar and jackals are also making their own paths through the reeds, maybe they know better where the best ford is. Arminden (talk) 00:35, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Archaeological reports[edit]

There are two archaeological reports about excavations near the bridge: this and this. Note that they are not adjacent to the river but respectively 100m and 50m to the west. The coordinates (track them here) suggest that the southern of the two "ruined bridges" is Jisr al-Sidd, but neither article has a map showing exactly where the bridge was. However, if I guess (original research warning) that they are parts of the structure leading to the bridge and draw a line through them, it points to the protrusion that I mentioned above. Zero^talk 05:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the PEF Quarterly Statement for 1907, p106, it has

We passed a ruined bridge (Jisr es-Sidd), the piers of which still stand in the bed of the river : near it is a weir across the river, diverting much of the water into a canal on the west bank. On the opposite bank is the village Umm Junieh. A few minutes further on is the more extensively ruined bridge known as Umm el-Kanatir.

This travelogue was in the South-to-North direction, so this also supports the idea that the southern of the two "ruined bridges" is Jisr es-Sidd. (But not if Umm el-Kanatir is the one just below the lake.) Zero^talk 05:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Jisr es-Sidd. Ruined bridge" appears in a list of archaeological sites in a 1923 Gazette. No location. Zero^talk 05:09, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Peterson says there is stuff in the archives of the Palestine Department of Antiquities. Those archives used to be here but now I get an error from that site. Does anyone have better luck or a better address? Zero^talk 05:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Works now, but I can't find the bridge there. Zero^talk 15:58, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This might help: here is the rebuilt pioneers' wooden hut (the rectangular red roof), a copy of the one used in c. 1909-10 by the Jewish Degania commune, back then together with a few mud huts inherited from Arab Umm Juniyeh. Jisr es-Sidd was indeed very close to where the Alumot Dam / bridge stands today, which makes sense - the river hasn't changed its course too much. Arminden (talk) 17:11, 16 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Jisr Semakh[edit]

The Lynch sketch of the ruined "Jisr Semakh" is confirmed as "Umm al-Qanatir"; both his description and the sketch of the full length of the river (the latter marks the point where he slept on Apr 10 as being next to Um al-Kanatir). Onceinawhile (talk) 20:45, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Look around p1804 in volume 126 here. Zero^talk 12:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, a source of confusion is that there is a Umm al-Qanatir quite distant, in the Golan at 2194/2505. Zero^talk 12:06, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Umm el-Qanatir simply means "Mother of the Arches", a name popularly given to lots of buildings with impressive vaults & arches. Names, especially of ruins, were sometimes a thing of personal taste & inspiration. The C19 Western explorer nagged with questions, and the local gave him some answer - accurate, annoyed, or ironic. That's how Petra got its Zubb Far'oun, the Pharao's Penis = a lone standing huge column. Not that Bedouin necessarily called it that way when Herr Burckhardt or some other European wasn't asking :) Arminden (talk) 22:17, 27 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]