User talk:Grutness/archive57

This file is an archive - please do not add new discussion here - add it to my Talk page

Happy Adminship Anniversary!

That's 16 years. Mate, you've been around! Happy anniversary. Schwede66 07:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you! Grutness...wha? 08:03, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the barnstar!

Thank you for the barnstar, Grutness, it is much appreciated! Yes, I am fellow Dunedinite. I feel like I may have met you a long time ago at one of Mike D's fleeting visits? But it was back when I was brand new to this whole Wiki thing so I may be mistaken. Anyway, I am planning on working on more local content this year, no matter how much is done there always seem to be so many gaps! DrThneed (talk) 05:12, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

It's possible - I did go to a couple of those (one was at Otago Museum I remember). And yes, there's always more worth adding :) Grutness...wha? 11:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Stub categories

What is the minimum number of stub articles for a category? From memory I think it might be 30, but I can't find anything about this. Is the number set down in a policy or guideline somewhere? Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:16, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Not as policy but as a guideline. It's usually 50-60 unless there's an associated WikiProject, in which case it can be as low as about 30. From memory, it's all covered at WP:STUB#Guidelines. Grutness...wha? 12:49, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 01:03, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Category:Islamic organizations established in 1962

A tag has been placed on Category:Islamic organizations established in 1962 indicating that it is currently empty, and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion. If it remains empty for seven days or more, it may be deleted under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 15:55, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

It's no longer empty. Grutness...wha? 02:39, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Refrencing of Mim bour Article improved

Hi Admin, could you review my article " Mim bour" and recommend for approval? Boadu Emma (talk) 18:41, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

OK - I'll have a look. Grutness...wha? 03:32, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Hi Grutness,many thanks for your assistance.

You're such a wonderful Admin.

Mim Bour is on Google now. How can the star photo of my article appear after Google search?

Pls how can my Boadu Emma (talk) 12:36, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! :) Unfortunately I don't know how to get that photo on Google. Grutness...wha? 15:29, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Most grateful for your response Boadu Emma (talk) 18:26, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to disturb you sir

I just read more about you. It appears you're a very busy person since you're an editor of such prestigious newspaper.

Grutness, Please if you find any spare time, kindly attend to me on below two questions so I can finish up my next article.Boadu Emma (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

1. After getting the geographical coordinates of a mountain, Is there a special tool for calculating the height of that mountain?

2. After getting coordinates of two places, is there a tool to calculate the length or distance between them?Boadu Emma (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

The answer to the first question is no - you'd need to find a source for the height. As to the second question, there might be, but if there is I don't know what it is. Grutness...wha? 02:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Sir Grutness, thanks for the response sir. I asked because of the recent help you offered me on my article on Mim Bour. You provided the elevations of the mountains for me. So I was wondering how you got it and if you could share with me so it can guide me in future articles. Much love sirBoadu Emma (talk) 21:47, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

You can get an approximate height from Google maps' "Terrain" layer, which shows contour lines, but for anything more accurate you'd need to find a website which gives the height. Grutness...wha? 04:23, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Sir Grutness, I am most grateful for the assistanceBoadu Emma (talk) 06:51, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Urgent Assistance needed.

Hi sir, pls I have published an article about Mim Lake.

There are certain dimensions which I will need your help.

Here's the coordinates of the lake =6|55|10|N|2|37|15|W|

Google image of the lake is online. You can use your expertise to obtain me the size of the lake. Boadu Emma (talk) 12:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm. I've tidied it a little, but unless there's a source actually listing the area, it can't really be added to the article. Grutness...wha? 14:49, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry sir. Saw your reply very late Boadu Emma (talk) 21:37, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

They are asking me to do some more edits and republish it for consideration Boadu Emma (talk) 21:39, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

If I get your point, you're saying for example, the place has to be indicated on a map as a lake before.

Hope that's what you mean sir? Boadu Emma (talk) 21:43, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Cornwallis

I can't believe we both made an article at the same time for this! I'll merge the content from your version shortly, but please feel free to keep working on it. --Prosperosity (talk) 03:38, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Coincidences happen :) I got a notification to a change on the Awhitu Peninsula page I'd made, and noticed that Cornwallis Beach was redlinked, so I decided to do something about it. Your article is a lot more thorough than mine - good work :) Grutness...wha? 03:40, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

unprotect article

Hello sir,

my english is not the best as my main language is swedish and serbian, and small russian but i recently came across a project called 'verdis'. its a micronation europe. (https://verdisgov.org/)

it looks as the past of these admin protected articles were heavily messed with by supporters and non-supporters of that movement, but it looks like they gained a lot of media attention (how i heard of them) and i was wondering if it could be unprotected incase they reach even larger media? pages: Verdis and Free Republic of Verdis

i saw them on sputnik, a russian owned news station.

here some links:

in past 48 hours: https://rs.sputniknews.com/20210919/za-liberland-su-mnogi-culi-ali-izmedju-srbije-i-hrvatske-je-nikla-jos-jedna-drzava-1129955656.html https://www.vecernji.hr/vijesti/osnovali-drzavu-na-nasem-spornom-teritoriju-cilj-nam-je-pomirenje-naroda-1524432 https://www.total-croatia-news.com/politics/56208-verdis-republic https://www.b92.net/zivot/vesti.php?yyyy=2021&mm=09&dd=20&nav_id=1925054

in past: https://www.rtl.hr/buzzara/virealno/3500391/liberland-20-kako-jedan-cetrnaestogodisnjak-stvara-drzavu-izmedju-hrvatske-i-srbije/ https://likaclub.eu/cetrnaestogodisnjak-osniva-novu-drzavu-izmedu-hrvatske-i-srbije/

i didnt search much but those are what i find.

could be unprotected incase someone wants to make article of it in the future? SandroFan91 (talk) 07:17, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi SandroFan91 - it's probably better to take this up with User:NinjaRobotPirate, who is the admin who protected the page. He (or she?) is more likely to know why it was protected and whether it should be freed from protection. Grutness...wha? 08:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

okay. thank you for your help sir SandroFan91 (talk) 08:20, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Playground 52

I was just reminded that a while ago you requested that I improve Playground 52 and I agreed to do so. I apologize for it taking longer than expected, but please take a look and see if things look better to you. -- RoySmith (talk) 00:41, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I'd completely forgotten about that. The fact that the redesign won an award is enough notability for it to stay, I'd think. Thanks :) Grutness...wha? 01:17, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Faculty in Auckland category

Hi Grutness, could I get your opinion on the container category Category:Faculty by tertiary institution in Auckland? I came across some problems when I was considering where to place Massey University staff who work in the Albany campus - they should be in this category, but placing the entire Massey category wouldn't really work for having helpful information, leaving me with a few possibilities:

• Option 1: merge the Auckland category with New Zealand. Massey isn't the only institute like this - I know Canterbury has a campus in Auckland, and UoA isn't exclusively in the Auckland Region (e.g. the Whangarei teaching campus, although I don't think we have any articles on Whangarei staff)
• Option 2: split the Massey faculty category into three sections, based on primary campus. For most universities you can argue that there's a primary campus, and for Massey this is much vaguer (centralised in PN, but the number of staff in Auckland, Wellington and PN are much more comparable in size. I bet there are even staff members who have never been to Palmy!). Option 2 would probably take a large amount of research and guesswork, and might mean I need to split other universities by location as well.

Since you made the category, do you have any thoughts or opinions on what might be the best option? --Prosperosity (talk) 22:52, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm. I hadn't considered that when I made the category, and you're right it could cause problems. The same would be true for other New Zealand centres (Otago University has campuses in Christchurch and Wellington, for instance). Personally, I'd favour splitting the university faculty categories, though that might be seen as overcategorisation. Might be worth bringing this up as a question on the talk page of WP:WPNZ. Grutness...wha? 01:48, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Happy First Edit Day!

Thank you! Grutness...wha? 01:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Penny Bright Edits

Thanks for tidying up my Penny Bright edits. I shouldn't try to be so ambitious when I'm so tired! Hi from another Dunedinite. Nauseous Man (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

No problem, and thanks for adding the article. It looked more like tired editing rather than sloppy writing :) Hi from St Clair! Grutness...wha? 11:29, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Frederick Martin Christian

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You may want to consider using the Article Wizard to help you create articles.

A tag has been placed on Frederick Martin Christian requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a real person or group of people that does not credibly indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please read more about what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, then please contact the deleting administrator. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 18:59, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Hmmm. I don't think a colony's Chief Magistrate will fail NN. And neither does the person who removed the speedy nomination before I got to it. A bit overzealous there, Roger? Grutness...wha? 03:56, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Breaking edits

Hello G, it appears you have recently made many breaking edits to the categories on numerous baseball and football player articles, so many that it start to look like a pattern of article vandalism. Could you please go back and undo those edits, so that other editors do not have to clean up after you? Thanks, UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:39, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi @UnitedStatesian: Other than the two copy-and-paste slip-ups you reverted (thank you), and that I have now changed to their correct new targets, can you point out any of the 3,000 similar edits I have made in the last week that constitute possible vandalism? With that many edits it's easy to let an errtor or two slip through without noticing. If you could list any you find here, I will gladly fix them. Grutness...wha? 23:27, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Not vandalism, but certainly an indication of carelessness. Here are just the first 9 additional ones that i found:

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Please let me know when these are fixed; unfortunately given this error rate I now need to go through all of your edits to see if there are additional ones that are problems. Unless the above indicates a pattern to you that you can fix. UnitedStatesian (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

• @UnitedStatesian: All fixed, plus one more I found. Looks like I accidentally had "baseball players" saved in my clipboard rather than "Columbus, Georgia". Given that the Columbus, Georgia category only has three new subcats that should be all of them so hopefully there's no need to hunt further. Apologies. I shouldn't bulk edit when I'm tired! Grutness...wha? 08:42, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
  • I found two more:
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  • Thanks in advance, UnitedStatesian (talk) 16:32, 11 November 2021 (UTC)
    • Done. I'f I'm tired enough to confuse Indiana and Illinois, I'm definitely too tired to be editing! Grutness...wha? 01:08, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Kaikai Beach and Heyward Point (seeking sources for draft article)

Hi. I'm currently drafting an article on Heyward Point and Kaikai Beach, in the Otago Heads. I've managed to find all kinds of fascinating stories about them -- but only on blog style websites which fail WP:RS (particularly the Geocaching website). Those websites do have a few scanty sources linked, but not enough to support anywhere near all their claims. I mean things like

• The old Heyward Point lighthouse: I don't doubt it existed, but there's nothing in any published source that I can access online
• Apparently the name "Purehurehu" has been shifted from one headland to another as a result of a cartographer's error?
• Heyward Point for a while was called "Hayward's Mistake" after Captain Richard Hayward nearly ran into it in the fog?

Google has thus far failed me, but you seem to be someone with specialist knowledge on related topics. Where would I start looking for reliable, published evidence for this sort of thing? —VeryRarelyStable 03:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Are you a Dunedin local? If so, both the Dunedin Public Library and Hocken have good sources for that sort of information. Sadly, a lot of my information came from my friendship with Peter Entwisle, who passed away a couple of years ago - he was both a writer and publisher with an encyclopaedic knowledge of Otago history. The only printed publication I can find to hand at home which even mentions Heyward Point does say "On the point is a solar-powered marine navigation beacon. A rusting winch is the remnant of a cable system that was used to winch ashore acetylene bottles to the previous gas-powered beacon." - which does suggest a previous light, even if not a full lighthouse (the source is Antony Hamel's (2007) Dunedin tracks and trails. Dunedin: Silver Peaks Press. p. 6.07. ISBN 978 0 473 13772 4). If you can find a copy of that book, the same section deals with the Heyward Point walking trck, and there's also a section on the Murdering/Kaikai Beach track. Sorry I can't be of any more help! Grutness...wha? 07:07, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I'm a Dunedin local, and if you're who your userpage says you are, we know each other. I'm Daniel Copeland. I think I met Peter Entwisle on a couple of occasions, but not to have in-depth conversations with. Under Alert Level 2 I don't feel I can spend the time hanging around in libraries piling up books that would be needed to find in-depth information that hasn't been put online somewhere. So it might have to wait for a while yet. But thank you for your help. —VeryRarelyStable 09:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Ha! Yes - we've been on a couple of Gregor's walks together, among other things. Actually, he might have an idea where to find some info, too. Grutness...wha? 09:24, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Another breaking edit

See this one Please fix. And brew up some coffee if tired. UnitedStatesian (talk) 19:09, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

euh. Done. Sorry! Grutness...wha? 00:03, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Overcategorizing on a massive scale

If you move any type of athletes into a category for that type of athlete from Foo, take for instance here[1], you need to do it properly. You're doing it wrong when you just move the person from baseball players from Louisiana to baseball players from New Orleans without removing Sportspeople from New Orleans from that person's page. Which is what you did with Pollet. So are you going to go back and make these fixes? I bet there are hundreds or more articles that are overcategorized now since I'm seeing the problem with New Orleans and Baton Rogue....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:09, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

@WilliamJE: Yes, this situation has been deliberately done on some 7,000 articles, and for a very good reason. Category:Sportspeople from New Orleans was deliberately left on the page in addition to Category:Baseball players from New Orleans because Pollet was not just a player but also a coach. This is standard practice across recategorisation schemes such as this one, in order to still have the person searchable as a sportsman involved in other activities than simply playing a sport, and also making it easier to later recategorise if and when a Category:Baseball coaches from New Orleans category gets made (which it probably will - I'll be dealing with coach categories once I finish player ones). Do you want to remove the fact that he was a coach from New Orleans? Please don't "correct" this situation - it'll just create a huge mess of work to go through later. PS - Ironically, the majority of categorisation edits I've been doing on this project have reduced the numbers of categories on articles, so it's hardly going to result in much of an overcategorisation problem. Grutness...wha? 15:42, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

@WilliamJE:. Please try reading what I wrote before doing a knee-jerk reversion of my edits. Grutness...wha? 15:48, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

You created the huge mess. It doesn't make any difference he was both a player and a coach. He was a baseball player. Baseball players is a subcategory of sportspeople. People entries don't go in both. Paul Groves (footballer) is both a player and a manager.(In soccer, they are called managers) He is a football player from Derby. He is in that category. Groves isn't in Sportspeople from Derby Natalia Gómez Junco is a footballer from Mexico City who is also a manager. She's in Footballers from Mexico City and isn't in Sportspeople from Mexico City It is the same with any occupation. @Liz: can you chime in....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 16:05, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

What I'm doing is the same as for anyone who has two different occupations - and was already the way for many of the sportspeople I've catalogues at a state level. Look at, for example, the first ten people in Category:Baseball coaches from Oklahoma. Nine of them are also in Category:Baseball players from Oklahoma, because they were both players and coaches. If any of them are from Oklahoma City, do you want me to change the player category to the city category but not acknowledge they were coaches, or change the coach category to the city and not acknowledge the player category? As things stand, I'm changing the player categories and once that's done I'll be changing the coaching categories once that task is finished (it's about 2/3 of the way through). If I did the task the way you want it done, then either these people would not be recognised as coaches or it would become a much more difficult task to go through and deal with the coach-by-city categories. Grutness...wha? 02:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

If I may chip in, your approach is completely logical, Grutness. Schwede66 07:54, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

No it isn't the same. Take for instance former mayor and Congressman of Footown John Jones. Footown has a politicians category. Many communities have Mayor subcategories but only if there aren't enough entries. John Jones is in Politicians from Footown not People from Footown. For a practical example, former Oregon State Senator and Bend City Council member Gordon W. McKay, is in Politicians from Bend, Oregon but not People even though he had three different political jobs. Bend doesn't have a city council members category though some cities do....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 12:52, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

You mean like Cath Tizard, who is in both C:Mayors of Auckland and C:Auckland City Councillors? She was a councillor who was also a mayor. She's also a person from Auckland but isn't in C:People from Auckland. Totally logically arranged. So someone from Foo who is both a basketball player and a basketball coach will eventually be in both a C:Basketball players from Foo and a C:Basketball coaches from Foo category, but not in a C:People from Foo. They should, however, stay in a C:Sportspeople from Foo category until both those other categories are created, but isn't in C:People from Foo. And that's exactly what's happening. By the time my current work is completed, they'll have that coaches category and will no longer be directly in the sportspeople category - but when you're working with 600 cities, some of which had close to 2000 articles, this all takes time. Until that happens, keeping them in the sportspeople category makes it easier for people to locate someone as a coach, if that's what they know them for - it would make no sense for them to look for a coach in a player category. By the way, a bring up again your claim that I'm overcategorising - I want through a couple of hunderd of my recent edits last night - in 60% of them I had reduced the number of categories. If you don't believe me, check all the minus signs on my recent contribution list. In a further 30% the number had stayed the same. The number of categories has only increased in 10% of those edits, and in almost all of them it is temporary until the sports coaches categories are made. Soon. Be patient. Grutness...wha? 00:20, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Containerizing categories

In this edit you agreed with the nominator that these categories needed to be containerized. Can you briefly explain the value of containerizing? I've read WP:Container categories. I'm not asking for a defense, more an orientation. I don't work sufficiently in category areas to understand the nuances. A year or so ago I performed an enormous renaming of ACW era military articles/categories and this might have been suggested during the CfDs. Thanks for your Grutness. BusterD (talk) 21:03, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi BusterD. The main purpose of containerising is to stop stray articles in the main category. It's used a lot where the main category is splittable exactly into subcategories. In the case of disease-related deaths, the deaths should all be related to one or more specific diseases, so it makes sense if they're all in subcats. It's more useful to know that a person died, say, of malaria than that they died of some unspecified disease. It is possible that a person died of a disease and the exact disease is unknown, but in those cases a subcategory of "deaths from unknown disease-related causes" or similar might be appropriate.

Sometimes, containerisation is very obvious. A big project I'm currently working on is categorising sportspeople by city. The parent category "Sportspeople by city" is an obvious container because it makes more sense to categorise, say, a golfer as being from Baltimore than to categorise them as being from "a city" without saying what the city is. I hope that all makes sense! Grutness...wha? 01:49, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Creating Basketball player by city categories

If you are going to create these on a mass scale could you also please add them to WP:BASKETBALL? This can be easily done by copying and pasting "{{WikiProject Basketball}}" onto the Talk page of the new category. Ideally the project for the state the city is in would also be added but at a minimum please add to the basketball project so that the categories will show up on worklists and members of the project can maintain them. Thanks. I am sure projects of other sports you create these in would appreciate a similar step. Rikster2 (talk) 16:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I can do that. Thanks for the heads-up. Grutness...wha? 01:38, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Cornish emigrants

I updated some of the targets related to Cornish emigrants categories that I had entered incorrectly.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:51, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks :) Grutness...wha? 02:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:RFO

Hello. Could you please consider the edits that I recently reverted at Ashley Biden as candidates for REVDEL under RD2? Thanks! AlexEng^(TALK) 09:35, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi @AlexEng: I'm not an oversighter, and wouldn't really know where to start with this - sorry! It definitely looks like the sort of thing which should be removed from edit historyt hough. I suggest you go here and email the details there. Someone with more experience in the area will be able to help you. Grutness...wha? 09:42, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, Grutness. I had mistakenly selected "active admins" instead of "active oversighters" on the active users tool. My mistake. I don't use the email functionality of Wikipedia ƒor privacy reasons, instead relying on somewhat ambiguously worded messages to active administrators. Sorry for needlessly troubling you. AlexEng^(TALK) 09:51, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

No problem :) Grutness...wha? 10:09, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Category:Track and field athletes from San Jose, California

First off, thank you for creating the category. I wanted to discuss how much of an association and/or how specific to San Jose you are wanting to keep this category. I notice the obvious omission of Tommie Smith (originally from Lemoore High School but later a San Jose State athlete and John Carlos also from SJS. I've actually created several other SJS athlete articles. Obviously all trained in San Jose. I added Bruce Jenner, yes I know about the name change and mention it in my user page. He (at the time) notably trained there, contemporary with me. I know these people. Do they belong in this category? How about Cyndy Poor, which you already added. She trained with the Cindergals, same track about the same time as Jenner, but she went to Saratoga High School. And Francie Larrieu went to Fremont in Sunnyvale. Which would bring in Bill Green (hammer thrower). If we go to Sunnyvale, there would be Benny Brown too. But a lot of these people trained at SJS and SJCC, under the loose supervision of Bert Bonanno. Where do we draw the line? Trackinfo (talk) 07:09, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi @Trackinfo: Tommy Smith is missed because I haven't got that far through the "Sportpeople from..." category yet! As far as how specific, all I'm doing is going by the current categories. If someone is in "Sportspeople from San Jose, California", then I'll add a specific sport category (assuming there are ten or so people who will fit in it). I know that WikiProject Basketball is questioning exactly what link is needed to a city as well - if you look on their talk page, they've been talking about starting a discussion at WP:Categories about what connection is needed. Grutness...wha? 08:31, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

@Trackinfo: Even better issue, is Smith from San Jose? His article makes no mention of San Jose except in that his going to college there. It does mention Smith working/living in other places. Notable people section criteria says 'For "college towns" where students reside in the "town" only during their college years, it is preferred to list those students in the "Notable alumni" section of their respective college article, then add a {{See also}} in the city article "pointing" at the notable college section of the specific college article or separate notable college article.' Find a source that says he is from SJ....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 01:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

As I said, I'm just going by the categories already there. If the fault's with them, ask the person who put them there originally... they should be able to explain. Grutness...wha? 02:14, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Tommie, John Carlos and most of those pre 1980 SJS athletes were there for college. That said, other than high school, their career, particularly their top level career, essentially was over after college as it was for most "amateur" athletes of that era. You couldn't make any money after college so you had to focus your efforts on . . . a job that paid the money required to live. Some did try to extend their career afterward, but after the fist Smith and Carlos were largely persona non grata in racist America. Both did try the NFL but settled into coaching in Santa Monica and Palm Desert respectively. Interesting also, when not associated with SJS, they competed for the Santa Clara Youth Village team. During that era and for a couple of decades after it, there was no suitable training facility in the City of Santa Clara (though there was for the myriad of swimmers from that era), so they trained in San Jose. All that said, I'll add the category to people who trained in San Jose. Trackinfo (talk) 07:56, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

"Temporary Placeholders"

That is not a reason to keep the "sportspeople by city" categories once one or more specific sports sub-categories have already been added. Rikster2 (talk) 13:46, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It's common practice - quite a large number of editors use the same procedure, and I have done so many times myself in the past. This is the first time that anyone has complained - probably because in the past it's been done on smaller schemes. Given that this one deals with (so far) over 11,000 edits, with a few thousand more to come, it's a little more noticeable, thats all. In any case, as I keep repeating, it's very much a temporary measure. It's currently doing no harm at all, and will soon be gone. Grutness...wha? 13:49, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

No it is not a common practice. You're overcategorizing and at least 4 more editors counting myself think so too....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

It is not common practice to leave parent categories once sub-categories have been added. And now you are starting to revert my edits so you have made it my business. Rikster2 (talk) 13:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I have not reverted any of your edits. I undid one, several days ago, noting that you edited in good faith. Given that you didn't undo that edit, it seemed clear that you understood my logic. And yes, it is common practice to use categories as temporary markers. By the way, at least 45 other editors have been joining in on this scheme with adding both specific sports categories and leaving temporary marker categories. Grutness...wha? 14:07, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Look at it another way. As it stands, there are three options:

1. I can carry on with my categorising. That will end up with me clearing up the "overcategorisation", as you seem to think it, and a lot of articles will be more effectively categorised.
2. The "overcategorisation" is removed by you or others. It becomes nigh on impossible for me to deal with the coach categories, ending up in you spending a lot of effort on removing categories and a lot of articles remaining incompletely categorised.
3. Persistent bickering over what is a perfectly sensible and logical method leads me to give up the whole categorisation scheme in disgust, leaving some cities categorised and others not, and annoying the WikiProjects I've got on board with the scheme.

Which is the best option of those for Wikipedia as a whole? Grutness...wha? 14:06, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

So in other words, my preferred path is "bickering," but your preferred path is "sensible and logical." Got it. News flash - my suggestion is also "sensible and logical" and in fact is backed up by guidelines. I am not going to fight over this, but you have now reverted 2 edits where I correctly removed the sportspeople categories. Stop it. Rikster2 (talk) 14:12, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I have never reverted any of your edits. I undid two, with a message saying they were clearly good faith edits, but I do not lightly revert and have not done so in your case. Learn the difference between an undo and a revert. Grutness...wha? 00:00, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I undid it....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:07, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, as I said you still have the state basketball coach categories to work from, which would not result in a net add of categories on a page once created and replaced. Rikster2 (talk) 14:13, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

So you want me to go through state categories for basketball caches, American football coaches, baseball coaches, Canadian ootball coaches, soccer coaches, swimming coaches, golf instructors, horse trainers, boxing trainers, ice hockey claches, etc etc etc, filled with people who may or may not be from a particular city, rather than one category which has them all in one place? Have fun with that. Grutness...wha? 00:00, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

If I reverted every one of his overcategorizations, that would leave a trail of pages for him to add coaches too. It would be easier than sifting through Sportspeople from Chicago with its over 500 entries....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:22, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Really good question 'WikiProjects I've got on board with the scheme.' What WikiProjects are you talking about? Not Baseball, National Football League, or Golf, all three of which I'm participants at, you have done categorizing of these sportspeople, and you haven't posted to the WP talk pages. Not even once and I checked....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:52, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

• If I can chime in, I'm not sure of any WikiProject that approved the mass categorizations. I know there were a few CfDs a couple months ago that approved Basketball categories for major cities like Chicago or Los Angeles, but I would refrain from creating more categories on smaller cities like Basketball players from Dayton, Ohio or Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Honestly, it's not worth the hassle to revert, but I think you should try something else for the time. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 15:54, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Grutness explicitly wrote WikiProjects and CFD is not a WikiProject. There is this WikiProject discussion[2] but in no way did Grutness lay out how he would categorize coaches in any way....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 16:02, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

You are all bickering. Why don’t you let Grutness get on with his good work? Schwede66 16:42, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Merchandise giveaway nomination

A token of thanks Hi Grutness! I've nominated you (along with all other active admins) to receive a solstice season gift from the WMF. Talk page stalkers are invited to comment at the nomination. Enjoy! Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} talk ~~~~~

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:50, 31 December 2021 (UTC)