User talk:Five Years/Archive 8

This is Archive #8 for User talk:Five Years

This is an archive of inactive discussions. Please do not edit it. If you wish to revitalise an old topic, bring it up on User talk:Five Years.

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Julian Grill

Supported, on the proviso that the article is truly biographical and does not become full of recentism. His recent notoriety needs to be balanced with good material on his years in the Burke ministries. Grill was a goldfields parliamentarian for 24 years from 1977 to 2001, and a front-bencher from 1983 to 1990. He held senior portfolios in Agriculture, Transport, North West, Economic Development and Trade. You will need good sources beyond current newspaper articles. —Moondyne 09:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work and nice to see you doing something non-PSA. Keep it up. Now, how about Alannah McTiernan? —Moondyne 14:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking good, agree its nice to an article which doesnt a PSA focus. Some thoughts on expansion you could get information(election results) from when he first contested the seat, presuming that the seat was a safe labour seat prior to Grill who was the sitting member why did that person leave/how did grill get it. Also expand the various cabinet/shadow cabinet portfolios into to what and when, keep an eye out for major events during those periods. This type of info equally applies to other pollies as well like Alannah McTiernan. Gnangarra 14:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Next time instead of a copy paste to create just do a page move, that way all your efforts get retained. If your finished with the sandbox version drop a note and one us will delete so the edit history of the new article you create there is focused solely on that, also you may want to drop a sting at WP:DYK. Gnangarra 14:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

If you need help getting really old election results, let me know. I have from 1986 onwards here in some form (1996- are on the WAEC website), and getting 77 to 83 is fairly easy at the Battye (I actually intend to get all those results in one place for one of my other off-wiki projects). Orderinchaos 12:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks For Commenting

No worries on the Justin Langer page. It was the first real edit I've done. I just wanted his page to look respectable. Oh, and judging on the fact that you seem to be an experienced 'wikipedian' (I think that's what it's called) could you please change the bottom photo in that article? I just don't think it's a really great image, and one with him actually batting would be much better. Thanks for your comment on my page as well. You're the first person to do that. :D

Journo:In:Making 05:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

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Moyes

Today's The West Australian has a pretty thorough obituary of Peter Moyes, principal of Christ Church Grammar School for over thirty years, influential education administrator thereafter. If you're interested, and if the others feel he is sufficiently notable (I'll recuse), then this is an opportunity for you to write a properly referenced article on a PSA person. Hesperian 01:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Vic park by-election

It looks good, subject to a few minor typos. I'm not fully au-fait with notability criteria for elections and don't monitor the discussions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian politics to know if this has been discussed previously. A question there wouldn't do any harm. I can see only 2 other Australian state by-elections: Greatorex by-election, 2007 and Marrickville by-election, 2005. The fact there's only two surprises me a bit and makes me think there might be an issue. —Moondyne 02:50, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the need for the list of candidates table as that seems to be duplicated info from the results table below. —Moondyne 02:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

• I thought it would pass, it was an interesting article and referenced.--Golden Wattle ^talk 00:02, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Good work :) Obvious COI on my part so I won't get too involved, but given its importance in context I think it's great that it now has an article. Orderinchaos 14:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Removal of 'Current Developments'

Twenty Years, I see that you have deleted alot of info about the current developments. Is this necessary?? If there are people regularly updating it with the current happenings why did you think it was necessary to remove it. Batxuh 09:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Third-party opinion here, but if it relates to Hale School [1], the section TY removed appears to be unencyclopaedic, unverified and/or lacking reliable sources. Orderinchaos 09:37, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks Orderinchaos and Twenty Years, I just dont understand why current information which is updated by several people is 'unreliable and unverified' If one person was updating the info this could said to be 'unreliable and unverified' but when several people are updating it I dont see anything wrong with it. Batxuh 10:53, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining everything Twenty Years. You have been very helpful and this will assist me in writing articles on Wikipedia in the future. Keep up the great job you are doing Batxuh 00:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

The house of bats

Anything you want me to get or look up while I'm there? Orderinchaos 03:51, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Melb Gram

Okay ill try and find one for the 2004 results, i assume the 2005 results are okay with their current ref link? --Viva43 12:59, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide)

I guess you could call it a pre-emptive revert. I expect to find that the article deals only with allegations which were never confirmed, so I thought I'd use the guideline of when in doubt, leave it out, at least for now. You'd think in 16 years you could find a more concrete reference to actual misbehaviour if indeed it happened at all.Yeti Hunter 14:22, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely don't think Natasha deserves a guernsey for being the student club president of the university at the time. If indeed it merits inclusion at all, the section still needs a fair rewrite (and reduction in size per WP:UNDUE IMO)--Yeti Hunter 14:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

No worries, although I suspect this issue will see a fair amount of action on the talk page in the coming days.--Yeti Hunter 14:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Twenty Years, I was wondering what your thoughts were on this revision of the paragraph:

In March 1991, The Advertiser reported student claims of sexual harassment and initiations at the college. It was claimed that male students forced female students to perform domestic tasks and that senior students initiated first year students by urinating and spitting on them. The then acting master of the college, Professor David Nicholas refuted the claims.

Cheers. Username nought 09:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

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La Martiniere Song

Can you explain recent changes please Victuallers 14:37, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Surprised you have made this proposal. I would have thought that a discussion on my talk page or at the schools project was the opening move. There is international interest in this template. The creation of templates was made after much discussion. I must admit I find this proposal difficult to comprehend. Victuallers 14:55, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think you've completely misunderstood the debate on the schools talk page. This proposal was completely unnecessary and has created a lot of needless work. Dahliarose 17:26, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

It will be deleted in due course. Twenty Years 08:25, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:CSD

Unfortunately the Lyall Howard, article cant be speedied base on the nomination, have a read of WP:CSD#Non-criteria for the deatils, I highlighted the important section on the AfD page as well. Gnangarra 15:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:St. Mark's College (University of Adelaide)

Sorry Twenty, none of those comments were directed at you, nor were they meant as an overtly "personal" attack. I was cetainly not accusing you of muck-raking. I am however quite incensed by the obvious trolling and instances of ignoring the very policy you referred to, WP:AGF, by a number of editors who seem to pop-up every now and then to only edit pages contributed to by a small group of well-meaning and hard-working editors, and they are who my comments were aimed at, not at all at you - I fully recognise and appreciate what you have brought to the page in question, and thank you for your input. But I know I can do nothing about the "problems" I see, so this is really just blustering. Sorry again, and thanks for your help. (Please reply via my talk page) Cheers, ABVS1936 15:48, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I guess the thing that irks the regular editors is that it's just this one single purpose account trying by any means to insert anything negative about the college. It's so clearly not good faith. Nought's contributions consist entirely of inserting negative things into the St Mark's article and occasionally trying to delete other pages that either myself, OzDaren or ABVS have contributed to. It's thus a trifle frustrating when he tries to claim the moral high ground.--Yeti Hunter 06:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe getting an admin to step in is the simple way to deal with it. Twenty Years 15:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts on St Mark's Paragraph

Proposed revision from previous post:

In March 1991, The Advertiser reported student claims of sexual harassment and initiations at the college. It was claimed that male students forced female students to perform domestic tasks and that senior students initiated first year students by urinating and spitting on them. The then acting master of the college, Professor David Nicholas refuted the claims.

Hi Twenty Years, thanks for commenting on the revision I am proposing. The last sentence actually says the master "refuted the claims" not "refused to comment on the claims" and I don't think Yeti Hunter and ABVS1936 have an issue with that sentence. They have an issue with the sentence that says "It was claimed that male students forced female students to perform domestic tasks and that senior students initiated first year students by urinating and spitting on them." Their main reason being that adding this sentence gives undue weight to the event. I don't think I will be able to convince them to include the sentence and was just wondering what you thought my options are now? Cheers. Username nought 23:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

So what do you think I should do? I don't want to have to take this to RfC but I dont think I can convince the other editors to allow my revision in the article. Cheers. Username nought 08:48, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

School assessments

I see that you've made some cracking progress with the school assessments and you have already discovered that there are a substantial number of minimal stubs which give no indication as to their importance. Just a gentle reminder that you haven't yet put your assessments on the assessment log as requested by Camaron. I think it might be best for you to do so before doing any more. I note for instance that you have identified one article which is potentially of high importance. Dahliarose 21:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Unless you are willing to follow our agreed upon system for the time being, I would ask that you not assess articles on behalf of our department. We're not asking for much work on your part, just 20-30 assessments, all posted to the Assessments page so that we can all be sure that you're using our standards. After that, assuming you follow our assessment standards, we will promote you to "experienced" status and you can stop posting stubs and starts below high importance. Please try to respect our guidelines. Adam McCormick 19:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You have still not posted your assessments to the project talk page, yet I note that this morning you have started to continue making further assessments. I thought you would have learnt from the recent TfD discussion that accountability and transparency are vital for the credibility and respectablity of the school's assessment team. We cannot have a rogue editor who does not follow the agreed rules of the project. If you do not refrain from assessing further articles and continue to refuse to post your assessments to the project page we will have to seek the intervention of an administrator. Might I also suggest that targetting the templates created by an experienced and respected member of the assessment team is hardly conducive to establishing good relations. There are plenty of poor articles on Wikipedia and I suggest you focus your efforts elsewhere. Dahliarose 08:36, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This may have arisen out of confusion with the Australian projects where such assessments aren't noted (but are logged). I would strongly suggest following the Schools project guidelines and writing a summary of each rating and why it was provided. If this is taking too long I'm sure they'd know ways of speeding it up (for example, doing it in Excel in columns, then pasting to Notepad and getting rid of formatting might work - if you're unsure what I mean by this, let me know and I can show you :)) Dahlia, raising XfDs on pages which breach (or are suspected to be in breach of) Wikipedia's policies are the duty of every editor on the encyclopaedia, and he did approach neutral individuals for advice before raising it. Orderinchaos 08:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This is only an initial requirement to establish some consistency and it has been requested by three of the four active assessors on the project. It is usually quite easy to keep an open Word file and simply copy and past your assessments as you go along. Sorry what are XfDs? Dahliarose 15:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

"XfD" is shorthand for articles/templates/categories/redirects/miscellany for deletion. Orderinchaos 17:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been posting them to my sandbox. They will be added to the assessment page when i get a small bundle. Cheers. Twenty Years 15:18, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

We need to see all of the assessments you have done so far on the talk page before you do any more. I see you've already done one further assessment today. I appreciate it's only a stub and a low and is non-controversial but this is not always the case. We've had many cases where high importance articles have been assessed as low by mistake. We need to establish good faith. Dahliarose 15:56, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pleased to see that you've started to post some of your assessments. I'd already previously added Dean Close to the list and revised the assessment. I don't think there were any problems with the earlier assessments other than their absence from the assessment page. Adam might want to have a look at some of the American schools. The two-line stub/lows probably don't need any comments at all. I sometimes add a note that they might get deleted if they don't add more content. Dahliarose 16:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Mark McGowan

Thanks for rewriting this article. It's been on the COI pile for far too long and I'm glad to see it's now resolved. Orderinchaos 17:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers Twenty Years 08:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Very nice

Well done cleaning up that Mark McGowan mess. The new article looks great. :) Sarah 17:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers. Twenty Years 08:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

St Mark's College

Hi Twenty Years, I have tried to dicuss the issue about adding the extra sentence but ABVS1936 and Yeti Hunter don't look like backing down. Would you be able to comment on the issue on the St Mark's discussion page? Having a third party comment might help with resolving the issue. Thanks. Username nought 09:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The Big Unit

As Wikipedia gets bigger, it becomes more and more likely that articles like the Herald Sun article you've cited here, would be written by a journalist who found the relevant information right here on Wikipedia. I think that is very likely to be the case - this article is not a serious attempt to document Lynchy's formative years, and there's no reason to believe that the journalist invested a great deal of time researching it. More than likely he spent half an hour webbing up information on him before sitting down to write the article, and any half-hour web session is likely to be heavily influenced by the fine article we've put together here.

I hope you can see why that is a problem for us - we could make any outlandish claim, wait for someone to repeat it, then cite them. I'm not going to remove the reference, nor am I asking you to. I just wanted to point out the problem to you. If you're going to develop into a first-class researcher, you're going to have to learn to seriously question the veracity and provenance of your references. Hesperian 12:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You can revert blatant vandalism as much as you like. Hesperian 12:35, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, ok. Cheers. Twenty Years 12:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Flugge

It's funny...even though there are only one or two degrees of separation, I never even though of looking him up til now. Grant | Talk 16:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

La martiniere

You can do more than PROD.

You can check out WP:DPR#Templates_for_Deletion_page and actually delink the templates from where they are used. I've listed them at Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Holding cell since I have to head out, so if you want to do that, it'd be fine :) I or any admin can delete the template itself once no longer linked, or you can SPEEDY it yourself (WP:SD).

Final note, I think similar logic covers Template:La Martiniere Prayer too. After this it's caught by WP:SNOW, and I've listed that too.

Let me know what you do, if anything. Back later. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 15:10, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

PS - I've just re-read the song and prayer. This guy (or the song author) was into sycophancy big time :) 4 schools with hundred of students to laud how wonderful, saintly, and noble he was, for all time... 4 schools with hundred of students to humbly thank god for the life of this paragon of charity and virtue for all time. Completely not related to notability or encyclopedic significance, or appropriatelness of template but... yeah. #REDIRECT [[Second Coming of Jesus]]. FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 15:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Templates

If you get consensus on the La Martinere page, as I anticipate you will, then I will request deletion of all three. The templates are not important. (In fact, if you move the content from inside each one then you should find requesting the deletion of an empty template quite easy - especially if you discuss if with those involved first). I would also support your application under "SNOW". After all the prayer was templated in error. It is only used in two schools ... and is only slightly more notable.... as it records the Hong Kong funding link.

• I was impressed by the wrap-up at the end of the debate.
• I noted that someone noted the sycophancy in this unnotable song above .... :-)

Surprised that you see no reason to apologise, you say you have "taken advice", I could say "utter bollocks", but I would then have to apologise for that... which I wouldn't want to do that. I'm willing to believe that you have and needed to take advice. Do get someone to tell me if there is consensus for a request for deletion and I'd be pleased to assist them. Victuallers 15:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Education in Australia

Hi Twenty Years, Your idea sounds great to me! Would be good to have everything in one place as there are far too many poor quality Aus education articles. So yeah, I would definately support that. Cheers! Loopla 05:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

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Assessments (continued from archive)

As you will have seen, I've already commented on the Martiniere issue. I suggest you wait until everything's sorted and the templates can then be deleted. They were an experiment at best and are unimportant in the scheme of things. What is the situation with your school assessments? I note that you have already archived the earlier discussion. As you haven't yet posted the original assessments to the talk page as requested does this mean that you do not want to be a member of the team? No one was suggesting that there was any problem with your assessments. The proposed modus operandi was just a means of establishing in the first instance that your ratings were consistent with everyone else's, and would only have been necessary for the first few. You've actually made more work for yourself - if you'd done as you were asked the newer assessments needn't have been posted at all. Dahliarose 09:36, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

So far you've added three assessments to the page out of at least twenty or so which are included in your contribution history. Presumably you are intending to add the rest. Adam asked for all assessments to be added and I think all means all not just three. Once that has been done then it is up to Adam and the others to decide how to proceed. Dahliarose 13:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm pleased to see you've added some more. I suspect there are still a few missing. I seem to recall that there was an Indian school with a high rating which is not yet on the list. I've got to go out now but will look at them later today if someone else hasn't already done so. Dahliarose —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dahliarose (talk • contribs) 14:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

AQ--peer review

Its ok to request a formal PR, or would you like one of us to run over the article for you, Gnangarra 14:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

ditto from me. —Moondyne 01:35, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

All Hallows' School

Hey Twenty Years, Thought you might be able to help me with something. I've just attempted to make a start on cleaning up All Hallows' School as it is full of POV and advertising, and i've noticed that the main contributor has also created 2 All Hallows' related articles: All Hallows' Football and Futsal, and All Hallows' Middle School. IMO neither of these articles satisfy WP:NOTE, but I don't know whether they should be merged or deleted. If merged, most of the material would need to be culled as the All Hallows' School article is way over inflated already, but I don't want to go putting it up for deletion if they're not worthy of deletion. Thoughts, Suggestions?? Thanks for your time! Loopla 06:32, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that, i'll make a comment when I can think of something half intelligent. I just did a search of All Hallows' and i've found more All Hallows' related articles by the same editor Annie Tighe (apparently only notable for being the first student at the school), Jane Gorry (prehaps slightly more notable but I don't really understand the article), Mary Emelia Mayne (tagged for notability), La Toussaint (the All Hallows' School Song), Mother Vincent Whitty (maybe notable), Andreas Stombucco (architect for one of the school buildings), and Gail Reid (past pupil, maybe notable, poorly written). And those are just from the first 6 pages on my search (I got bored). Clearly an All Hallows' fan! Loopla —Preceding unsigned comment added by Loopla (talk • contribs) 13:12, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree with your edits, you did a lot that I didn't have the guts to do. I'll have another go at it in the morning. The history sections sound like they are copied straight out of a book published by the school, and from the way the article is written you would think it was Australia's version of Eton. Thanks for the help, i've been watching this article for a while and never did anything because it was so overwhelmingly bad. Loopla 15:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Hey, me again. Sorry to be really annoying and bring up All Hallows' again but i've been having a look at some of the images that the editor has uploaded and I don't agree with some of their license tags, eg. Image:Ahs football logo.GIF and (especially) Image:Jersey.JPG. Do you think im right in doubting these?? And if so how do you dispute them..I only know how to dispute fair use. Thanks! Loopla 11:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

List of notable Martinians

I agree that this page is currently a complete mess and that there are a lot of unreferenced people who quite possibly shouldn't be there. As you will see I did raise the matter on the talk page back in July, but there have been a number of enthusiastic editors who have continued to add names and have not provided references. It seems to be the normal practice, rightly or wrongly, on Wikipedia to have separate lists of alumni if there are too many alumni to include on the main article page. See: Category:Lists of people by school affiliation. I'm not quite sure when the cut-off point should be. As no doubt you are aware, Wikipedia has an inherent Anglo-American bias. The problem with schools in non-English-speaking countries is that they have many important high-ranking notable alumni without Wikipedia articles whereas English-speaking schools can often have long lists of relatively trivial alumni with Wikipedia articles. I've not had time to check a lot of these alumni out. As you have appear to have plenty of free time and considerable enthusiasm can I suggest that it would be most helpful if you could investigate some of these alumni and establish if references are indeed available. Sometimes Wikipedia articles exist but the names have been incorrectly spelt in the alumni list. You could perhaps also help by creating the articles if the people appear to be sufficiently noteworthy. Once this has been done then it should be possible to decide whether a separate page is justified or not. Dahliarose 14:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue with spelling of names can be a particular problem in India where the population does not use Latin alphabet in daily use (their alphabet typically looks like "राय ने अपने जीवन"), so several transliterations of the same name would be possible. Orderinchaos 15:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the point that you've not understood in this particular case is that these Martiniere schools are the Indian equivalents of Eton and Harrow. They are among a small group of elite schools which adopted the British public school models and where anyone who is anyone in India was educated. There are no doubt some names there which don't merit inclusion, but there are many more notable names which will no doubt have been omitted. The list already includes a few internationally known names such as the actress Merle Oberon, two Miss Worlds and countless high-ranking government officials. It would be appreciated if you could allow the editors working on the page time to investigate the claims and provide sources. Dahliarose 20:50, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Aus School project

Supported. Email shortly. —Moondyne 12:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)