User talk:Benjiboi/Archive 4

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Fair use rationale for Image:Hibiscus_.jpg

Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image:Hibiscus_.jpg. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If you have uploaded other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on those pages too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Wikipedia page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any non-free media lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. Rettetast 15:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Updated license. Benjiboi 14:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

wikify request of Channel disambiguation page

Hello. I've removed your wikify reuqest at Channel. This page is a disambiguation page, which are a little different than normal pages. One of the big differences is that we try to keep the number of links to a minimum (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages) for more.) Thanks! Ewlyahoocom 05:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Well perhaps a different template is more appropriate as that page is a mess and needs clean-up which I thought that template addressed. Benjiboi 05:42, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood your concern. Perhaps if you were more detailed in what you mean by "a mess" I could try to address the problem. Thanks! Ewlyahoocom 05:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem I just added clean-up tag and put a few notes on the talk page. Benjiboi 05:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Chris Crocker (internet celebrity)

geographical info

I'm not sure if you thought I took out the info myself (i only took out the redundant "southern united states" line). I'm not sure I have an opinion about the "tri-city area" bit. I don't have much sympathy for crocker (he seems to be playing groups against each other for his own publicity), but I also don't want him to get killed. On the other hand, "tri-cities" seems fairly nonspecific. And if it's general information, it'll be available outside wikipedia. The typical thing to do would be to directly ask crocker whether he has a problem with that info being included (via his media inquiries email, I guess), though I don't know if he'd try to somehow spin the wikipedia contact into a big media storm. Cheers, Tlogmer ( talk / contributions ) 08:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I feel like I want to avoid doing something that could lead to someone getting killed myself so I'd rather just leave it until the issue comes up again. It's pretty easy to connect the dots given a few of the businesses and basic references given like distance to gay bar and such. I'd be surprised if he doesn't get revealed soon but maybe he'll escape there soon anyway. Benjiboi 08:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

See also's

archiving here for future incorporation. Benjiboi 14:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Celebrity branding
• Famous for being famous
• Gender-bender
• Jeffree Star
• List of YouTube celebrities
• Media hype
• Tila Tequila
• Transgressive art
• Viral video
• Viral marketing
• William Sledd

(Britney Spears)"lackluster"/"critcised"

I tend to go with "criticised" or "praised" other than "lackluster" or "wonderful", because the former terms tend to convey a less strong POV if they do at all. For example, we can say that something was "criticised" and then source two or three and we're closer to NPOV than if we say "lackluster", because using the latter can look as if it's Wikipedia's official view on it. I made a similar point here about widely held views and NPOV. Will ^(talk) 15:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I hear you and that does seem to be a reasonable guideline. I like the quote solution as well as it's not our judgment call then. I also see this a s an issue of recentism and people will care less down the road a bit so better editing will take place and will survive - don't hold your breath though!

Chris Crocker personal info

Hey Benjiboi - if you look at the edit, you can see that I was actually changing the information back to what you had, not the other way around! Thanks for all your work on the article though. Surfeited 17:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you're right, I did add the date of birth back, while removing place of birth - I was just undoing all the edits of the one before me, who seemed like he was undoing the last 25 edits. Surfeited 17:24, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

lol. yay when I got this morning I had high hopes of actually adding a bunch of material but had to stick with fixing the damage first and warning a few folks (many, like yourself, were friendly fire) about the privacy issues. Benjiboi 17:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Chris Crocker personal info

Sorry about adding his date of birth. I know Chris and certainly understand his desire for privacy, but I wasn't aware that his date of birth would be a problem. I hope that someone will in general clean up his entry so that it can stay on Wikipedia since there are some who wish to delete it. The fact that his real surname and location are not listed certainly seems like a good idea. But can we improve this entry so it looks more like a proper biography?Mike 20:22, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem. And yes we certainly can improve the article, my hunch is that add easy things now and when the AfD is over it can start to morph into a better article. This also is somewhat dependent on if he gets another big wave of publicity which attracts less than ideal editing. I felt my job was to keep it from getting deleted. Benjiboi 22:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Crocker date or place of birth, Please Stop

Even if he's a public figure? That's what the whole AFD debate was about... People want to kill President Bush everyday but it's no secret of his hometown. I just find it odd in cases of public figures. Thanks. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 22:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• I just re-read it again and yes, even for public figures. The tipping point seems to be when it has been verified by WP:RS. Keep in mind that if i wanted to disrupt that queeny kid down the block I could tell everyone it's him. So until Crocker outs himself it seems like we err on safety. the other issue that came up was identity theft btw. Benjiboi 22:35, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• OK. -- ALLSTAR ECHO 23:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Chris Crocker

I noticed you've posted several times on the Chris Crocker page that Crocker's date of birth and location are not to be disclosed under the premise of "do no harm", but this is considered to be censorship. The "do no harm" is referring to libelous statements and the like, not the location of a person and certainly not a person's date of birth. What harm could come of knowing a person's date of birth anyway? I believe you should thoroughly familiarise yourself with what WPBIO actually says before citing it as a reason for not including a person's date of birth. Heirachy of guidelines and policies determines that removing censorship takes precedence over a simple wikiproject guideline. linca^linca 01:22, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I will read up more right now yet I believe the basic tenet does apply. He is gay teen in the South who has received death threats. Revealing his true identity, city where he lives could easily be used by those who wish to harm and harass him.Benjiboi 01:25, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Update. OK, Do No Harm, which is an essay and not a policy or guideline, is broader than just libel issues. Amongst other things it states there is a presumption in favor of privacy and unsourced, poorly sourced, or dubious content, especially if potentially libelous, should simply be removed on sight from biographies of living persons. It explains that nonpublic information consists of private details about an individual that have not been published in the mainstream media and are not widely known. In most cases, Wikipedia articles should not include such information; Wikipedia is not a tabloid, and we are not in the business of "outing" people or publishing revelations about their private lives, whether such information is verifiable or not. As Wikipedia has a wider international readership than most individual newspapers, and Wikipedia articles tend to be permanent, it is important to use sensitivity and good judgment in determining whether a piece of information should be recorded for posterity.

This, I believe, is in line with WP:LIVING Presumption in favor of privacy -

Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia.

— Jimmy Wales

An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, and as such it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. To me this is clear enough on both fronts that information is to be kept private and the issue can be revisited once it is both widely known and in reliable sources. Benjiboi 01:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

To address What harm could come of knowing a person's date of birth anyway? I want to remind you that the subject of the article has received death threats and has refused to state his name. I once worked in a District Attorney's office and it was my job to hunt down people. If I had I could easily find Crocker's city in a short time and it wouldn't be too difficult to track him to his home if one had the correct birthdate or birth city as well. In the insurance world employees on a companies' insured list for a price quote are often listed as simply Male 36, female 23 (including only the sex and age) and a researcher proved they could correctly determine exactly who the people were in more than half the cases. Identity theft happens in the same manner, pieces tied together. So someone who intended to cause harm to Crocker should not be aided by us against our own policies. To me another concern is that entering the wrong information could identify someone else in error who would then be attacked mistakenly as Crocker. Benjiboi 02:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Identity theft is not a concern we need to consider, as simply seeking the media attention Crocker has illicited removes him from the public eye's position as a person that could have their Identity stolen, unless his identity is not clearly portrayed.

Anyway, all of this discussion is moot until verifiable sources can be provided to validate the claims. If his date of birth, hometown and real name become reported on a verifiable site (i.e. news.com or nyt.com or something) then it can be considered that Wikipedia is doing no harm by listing this information here. It'd be ridiculous to refuse to include information that's otherwise readily available by other sources. Just as a last note, if I really wanted to, I could get his IP (myspace isn't very discrete, even though they try to be, about that sort of thing) and using that, pinpoint where he's located and find out everything about him, down to his social security number, how much he weighed at birth and if he has any extra toes, in the space of about 3 hours if I asserted any concentration towards it. Anybody can do these things (I can skip a few steps saving me time) and so I don't really see why there's an issue? I don't even live in the USA and these resources are freely and legally available to me and anybody who has access to this inter-web of ours (though to take 3 hours, it wouldn't be quite as legal). linca^linca 05:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, we do agree that we could find out who he is on our own and that until his identity and personal information is revealed on WP:RSs that the info should stay out. I think we need to err on the side of caution even past that threshold per BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy. The test that would seem to be most appropriate is "widely known" in WP:RS so just one RS might not be enough, but if the subject is, in fact, notable enough, multiple WP:RSs should cover the information. In Crocker's case I imagine that would come quickly once the first source publishes. Benjiboi 11:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Threats of article vandalism linked on talk page

It's publicly stating that they will vandalise the page. We don't allow that, external or internal. Will ^(talk) 15:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

We don't allow which? Vandalisms or the mention that someone is talking about vandalism? I'm trying to understand the acceptability for deleting talk page comments which is usually frowned upon. Benjiboi 15:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Chris Crocker fix - thanks

Thanks for the fix 'twixt the part 1 and part 2 videos, I didn't realize I had them mixed up ^_^ Milto LOL pia 18:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem, I added some extra context for others who might make the error. We learn we grow! Benjiboi 18:28, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment on User Conduct - Matt Sanchez / Bluemarine

Hello, may I ask for your participation in an RFC established for user Bluemarine/Matt Sanchez? The reason for the Request for Comment is set out in the RFC summary here. Whether you support or oppose it, your input would be appreciated.Typing monkey 18:15, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Will check it out, thanks. Benjiboi 18:29, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

(re:your support of my statement) Thank you for cutting to the chase and noting Sanchez's (possibly justifiable) paranoia. I was attempting to imply that with my statement, but it was not clear until you came out and said it. Horologium t-c 01:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

NP. When I first was getting snipped at I was wondering what was going on and currently postulate...that we're dealing with a potent cocktail of youth, homophobia (internal/external who knows?) and a machismo'd testosterone effect fueled by cultural influences both from childhood and his current political and work environments. I really think he could be a great editor but I'm also a sucker for happy endings.Benjiboi 02:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought, shouldn't we all get a certificate of merit for surviving these attacks? The list of names and things we've been accused of is pretty amazing.Benjiboi 03:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Shepherd's World is flat comments on The View

Hello Benjiboi, I'm not sure of the protocol on response to user comments so I'm posting here. 1) "That information is hardly considered a controversy as much as an embarrassing comment." True, but it is an interesting piece of information so perhaps it belongs in a different or new section.

2) "I'd be willing to bet that even if it's true that the Huffington post is not considered a great source" a) The huffington post is a reliable and well-regarded source of information on the Internet. Granted it is not the NY times, but it is is highly cited source on the net. Its traffic rating is comparable to that of slate.com. b) I suggest you watch the clip *on the Huffington post* linked page. Unless the you're suggesting the Huffington Post is capable of sophisticated video editing, or that they hired the actors to engage in a fake segment.

3) "You may want to revert your edits and wait a day or two and see if any mainstream press actually cover the comment." How is that relevant? Whether NYT reports it or not (for example) *does not* suddenly make it fact. The event occurred, there's video proof, and it's spreading across popular social websites. It is now public knowledge and an interesting part of The View's history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sural (talk • contribs) 11:07, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

1.If you're determined to get it somewhere then a very abbreviated version could go into Sherry's article.

2.I personally admire Arianna Huffington and agree that the video is probably genuine, however Wikipedia probably does not consider it a reliable source - too POV. I could be wrong but I've never seen it used as a source.

3.What's true and what's relevant for an encyclopedia are two different things. It's cold outside but does that information make for a better article? The View has a ten-year stretch so the gaff of Shepherd's is not likely to be a noteworthy event of the season. I will, however, reserve the right to say "I told you so" if someone else deletes it. Benjiboi 11:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

p.s I taped the show so I'm going to watch my own copy and see her be a goofball myself! Benjiboi 11:19, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, after watching the epidsode I now know what these comments refer to and I must say I don't find them to accurately portry the nature and depth of the conversation and don't provide them in the context to which they were presently thus making Shepherd look foolish. I will look at the current version and see what changes might help more accurately characterize them. Benjiboi 19:18, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

village pump question

I saw you posted a question on the village pump that has went unanswered so far. If you post your questions on the WP:Help desk instead, you will typically get a faster reply. User:Alutena^(talk) 19:05, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Cheers! Thank you for the suggestion. Benjiboi 19:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Male bra

I read somewhere that the cumberbun was a bra for the gut. -- Jreferee T/C 10:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe it although it seems like a...stretch! Benjiboi 12:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion gestapo

Hi Benjiboi. I've removed the {{Rescue}} template from the above article. The template is for articles that may be deleted because of something obviously fixable, such as a lack of content, poor or no sources, or poor formatting. Neil ム 10:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Per the AfD process, articles that can be improved through regular editing should be before taking to AfD. I've re-added the {{Rescue}} template as tag is for AfDs that need improvement. I hope you're not suggesting that there is no way this article could ever be improved enough. Benjiboi 12:42, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it again. All articles (on AFD or otherwise) should be improved, an extra template is not necessary on that count. Again, {{Rescue}} is for articles that are sorely missing references or badly need cleanup. It is not for putting on articles you think should be kept because you like the article and it looks like the AFD is heading towards deletion. Stop abusing the template, now, please, as this is disruptive. Neil ム 15:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I believe you are mistaken as nothing on that template's page currently indicates its usage is restricted as you suggest. However I think you are an admin so I defer to your far reaching powers as your opinions on the matter seem quite clear as to how the template should be used and where its use should be segregated to. Benjiboi 15:47, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't clear, you're right; I have tried to put something on the WP:ARS page to clarify when it should be used. Your comments on the talk page (WT:ARS) would be appreciated. Neil ム 15:51, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Grand Wiz - Ernie Roth documentary

Hey, I'm working on a documentary about Ernie Roth. Saw you updated page. Would love to connect. Please email me at grandwiz@gmail.com Thanks, Brian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.167.135.119 (talk) 17:09, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I can't say I would know anything more than the article states so I may not be a great resource for you. Benjiboi 03:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

FYI

Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_LGBT_characters_in_modern_written_fiction -- ALLSTAR ECHO 05:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of links on El DoboLocoPapo

Yep - adios to those; I always check the what links here and I nuked all the redirects: you can check whether I did it right by going to the article page which will show you the deletion and clicking the what links here (it still works after deletion or before creation) and seeing if I missed something. Your user talk reminded me that I ought to sign up for the LGBT wikiproject which I promised someone I'd do then forgot. :-( Bad Carlos. Carlossuarez46 06:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Coolio. Thanks for confirming. Benjiboi 06:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

LGBT Barnstar

		The LGBT Barnstar
		I hereby award you the LGBT Barnstar for all of your outstanding, hard and endless work on LGBT related articles, especially your, IMHO, single-handed save of Chris Crocker (Internet celebrity)! -- ALLSTAR ECHO 03:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yay! Thank you so much although saving his article from AfD was hardly just my effort but it's nice to be recognized. Thank you! Benjiboi 23:13, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, many contributed but when I look at the history pages, your name fills 'em up! :] -- ALLSTAR ECHO 00:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

As the original creator of the article, thanks for saving it :-) Fosnez 23:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

You're very welcome, I will even point out that were it not for the Rescue tag I probably wouldn't have bothered! Benjiboi 23:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Current Events Barnstar

You beat me to it! I was going to give him The Current Events Barnstar. The LGBT one is prettier, I guess. Oh, what the heck:

		The Current Events Barnstar
		Both on behalf of the oodles of people who read Chris Crocker (Internet celebrity) last week, and on behalf of the encyclopedia for which the article became a showcase, I present to you this, The Current Events Barnstar. Thank you for your efforts, and congratulations. Ichormosquito 03:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm honored. Actually I was worried that my "new messages" alert was another drama perking up but am thrilled it is being recognized for anal retentiveness turned into actual productive output! Thank you! Benjiboi 08:16, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Your comment regarding homosexual "bashing"

Your comment showed your ignorance regarding the moral difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality. Your response acted as if they are on the same plane morally, but the Judeo-Christian belief, upon which the United States was founded, states clearly that anyone who practices homosexuality is going against God's plan for humanity, just as someone who practices heterosexual adultery is also missing God's plan for their life. This "missing the mark" is called "sin" in the Bible, and continual unrepentant sin condemns a man to an eternity separated from God. Man's only hope is to trust Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty for man's sin. Therefore, to speak against the acts of homosexuality is merely an attempt to promote the morality that is taught throughout the Bible. It is an act of love, not hate, to point out a man's error and point him toward the way of life in Christ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.247.200.254 (talk) 17:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure which comment you're referring to but save the preaching for someone else. If whatever god you're citing has a grand plan for humanity I rather doubt that you would be her spokesperson. We live on a big planet with many gods and belief systems and the traditional hypocritical stance of "hating the sin, love the sinner" has been used by your sacred Judeo-Christians to justify all forms of human rights abuses including war. And in war more people have been killed in the name of religion and god than for any other reason. It's hard for me to see your pointing out some mystery error as anything but you promoting your twisted mythological Biblical views. As far as I know Jesus was a butch homo who believed in New Testament healing and said something along the lines that love is the only drug. I'm not interested in your life in Christ if it involves demonizing and oppressing others while encouraging terrorism and violence against LGBT people and anyone with a belief system different from yours. Begone wicked hypocrite - you have no power here! Benjiboi 18:16, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Cazuza: Thanks

Thanks for your help with article Cazuza. :-) -- Writtenonsand 11:07, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

If no one beats me to it I'll work the references in as well. Benjiboi 17:17, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Robert Mugabe/Ian Smith articles

I've been declared a vandal but I'm not.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.75.15 (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Not sure why you're messaging me about this but...since you are a newer editor I can clarify that a lot of anonymous editors do vandalize amd when any editor reverts edits it's easier to simply call them vandalism so even well-meaning edits occur they are sometimes labeled as such. As a suggestion ensure that anything you do add is neutral and referenced, if possible. Also simply making minor edits like spelling and grammar are a good way of getting experience without potentially changing the content of an article. In any case good luck.Benjiboi 01:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Flamboyant (gay) article and wikilinks

create appropriate page for flaming, flamer, flamboyant as adjective and wikilink potent edits from this[1] from mid-September 2007 going back in time.Benjiboi

Done. Benjiboi 01:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Transgender

You have too many images from one event on there. One or two is fine, but right now the page is too cluttered with too much WP:WEIGHT given to one event. --David Shankbone 05:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Someone else added several in a row so I was just splitting them up, delete whatever you wish, they aren't mine I was just formatting. Benjiboi 05:05, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Jon Sims Center for the Performing Arts

Thanks for the update on the Sims Center. I was going by information that (former?) BOD president Stephanie Smith had sent out, and just assumed that was the last word. I'm glad to hear that The JSC is still up and running.

I'm still new to editing Wikipedia pages-- I'm going off to explore yours. It looks interesting and invaluable! -- Mojave66 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mojave66 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I could be wrong! They still have a web presence and it says they are still renting out space so presumed they were still operational. Regardless I don't thin k I changed the information in the article as i wasn't able to confirm as what is true and what can be proven through reliable sources are often two different tings. Benjiboi 20:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)