Template:Did you know nominations/Samuel Cole (settler)
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by PFHLai (talk) 10:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Samuel Cole (settler)[edit]
- ... that early Boston innkeeper Samuel Cole established the first tavern in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1634, and that he and his establishment were featured in Longfellow's play John Endicott?
- Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Roberts House (Canonsburg, Pennsylvania)
- Comment: Part of the source for the hook is "here".
Created/expanded by Sarnold17 (talk). Self nom at 19:49, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
What makes the subject notable? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:07, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- Though he may not have opened the first tavern in what became the USA, he is likely the first person who can be identified as a tavern-keeper. He is a historical figure who was included in a work by a great American writer.Sarnold17 (talk) 10:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any in-depth sources on him. The vast majority are basic geneologies. Also, the selection of descendents is rather arbitrary. George Romney is on the table, but not in the article, for example. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- Of Boston's 8000 or so inhabitants in the 1660s, when Henry Wadsworth Longfellow decided to choose about a dozen of them for one of his historical plays on the plight of the Quakers, those people had to have had some level of notoriety. This is a historical figure, not fiction, and he was known to Longfellow. As to the Bibliography, I used what I happened to have on hand. Three of the sources are genealogical and three of them are historical. Fifty percent is not a vast majority. I wrote this article because in my researches on the Antinomian Controversy Cole's name kept popping up. Unfortunately, I don't have ready access to many of the sources I've used in the past, but Emery Battis, writing on the above controversy in 1962, included him, and he is mentioned in one of the tables at the end of the mentioned article. The selection of descendants is not arbitrary, it happens to be what I believe are the two best known. I can certainly add Romney's father, but I just stuck with the younger Romney since he is known to almost everyone today, and to Douglas because he is in virtually every book on US history. I have no qualms about adding George Romney, but IMHO he is not as well known as the other two.Sarnold17 (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- Notable =/= well known in Wikipedia terms, and personally I think a list of notable members would work better. Albert Balink, for example, is known mainly to students of Indonesian film history (i.e. barely anyone) and still notable. Generally the article is in good shape. New enough and long enough, AGF on offline sources. Fairly well-written. I have qualms with the hook though, as it is rather long. Why not just trim the last
sentenceclause? - Regarding the notability question, perhaps a second/third opinion is necessary. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:12, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
- Notable =/= well known in Wikipedia terms, and personally I think a list of notable members would work better. Albert Balink, for example, is known mainly to students of Indonesian film history (i.e. barely anyone) and still notable. Generally the article is in good shape. New enough and long enough, AGF on offline sources. Fairly well-written. I have qualms with the hook though, as it is rather long. Why not just trim the last
- Of Boston's 8000 or so inhabitants in the 1660s, when Henry Wadsworth Longfellow decided to choose about a dozen of them for one of his historical plays on the plight of the Quakers, those people had to have had some level of notoriety. This is a historical figure, not fiction, and he was known to Longfellow. As to the Bibliography, I used what I happened to have on hand. Three of the sources are genealogical and three of them are historical. Fifty percent is not a vast majority. I wrote this article because in my researches on the Antinomian Controversy Cole's name kept popping up. Unfortunately, I don't have ready access to many of the sources I've used in the past, but Emery Battis, writing on the above controversy in 1962, included him, and he is mentioned in one of the tables at the end of the mentioned article. The selection of descendants is not arbitrary, it happens to be what I believe are the two best known. I can certainly add Romney's father, but I just stuck with the younger Romney since he is known to almost everyone today, and to Douglas because he is in virtually every book on US history. I have no qualms about adding George Romney, but IMHO he is not as well known as the other two.Sarnold17 (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any in-depth sources on him. The vast majority are basic geneologies. Also, the selection of descendents is rather arbitrary. George Romney is on the table, but not in the article, for example. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
- How would you recommend trimming the hook; what would sound good to you?Sarnold17 (talk) 01:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
- "... that early Boston innkeeper Samuel Cole established the first tavern in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1634?" would work well, methinks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
- I can live with that, though I think it's Longfellow that gives him his notability. I found another reference for Cole that I've (for now) listed as the last item under Exernal Links. In his book on early taverns, Samuel Drake gives Cole a short chapter (pp 73-75). I hadn't yet found this when putting the article together.Sarnold17 (talk) 01:51, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
- Here's a less wordy alternative to the original:
- "... that early Boston innkeeper Samuel Cole established the first tavern in the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1634?" would work well, methinks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
ALT 1 ... that in 1634 early Boston innkeeper Samuel Cole established the first tavern in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and it was featured in Longfellow's play John Endicott? oops, forgot to sign.Sarnold17 (talk) 16:59, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps change "and it was" to "which was"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
- Yeh, I didn't want to make it sound like it was the first tavern featured in the play, thus the wording, but I agree with you that "which was" does sound better.
ALT 2 ... that in 1634 early Boston innkeeper Samuel Cole established the first tavern in the Massachusetts Bay Colony, which was featured in Longfellow's play John Endicott?
