Talk:Zou language

Move to Zo language?

@Bejnar:, @Kwamikagami:, I'd like consider moving this to Zo language leaving a redirect behind. This is on the basis of this[1] ethnologue article, which calls it Zo giving Jou, Kuki Chin, Yo, Yos, Yote, Zau, Zome, Zomi and Zou as alternative names. We'd need to be clear that it is 'Zou' in India. However, see [2] which I just checked and calls it Zou. Dougweller (talk) 11:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Well, Doug, since in this case we are talking about a smaller set of the the Kukish language group, I'm reluctant to change it, without more (library) research. What we have chosen (by default) here in the Wikipedia to call Zou people, speak Zou [zom]. Other known names and dialect names not listed above: Zo, Zohâm, Zokam, and Zoukamz (from language-archives.org). Zou [zom], in the Northern Kukish group, seems to be distinct from the Lai languages which appear to be the same as Central Kukish. From the few sources I've seen, Zou [zom] with most of its speakers in Burma, appears to have similarities to both Simte [smt] and Chin, Paite [pck], with most of their speakers in India. --Bejnar (talk) 19:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Another issue is ancestral ZO. We would not do well to muddy the waters. --Bejnar (talk) 19:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• The number of speakers listed at Zou people#Zou language does not match those provided in the citation, which says: Population 61,000 in Myanmar (2012 T. Philipzo). Population total all countries: 81,900. That would seem to indicate about 20,000 in India. --Bejnar (talk) 19:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll get back to this tomorrow I hope. Good points. Dougweller (talk) 21:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we should follow ISO or Ethnologue simply because, since they are not RS's and we have no idea what basis they had for choosing the name. Here[3] is the last name-change request for Ethn, from 2006, which only supports either Zo or Zou over Zome because Zome is specifically the people – not that that matters when choosing an English name, as seen for example in "Bantu languages". I personally don't care if it's Zo or Zou or Zome or Zomi or whatever, though I would hope whatever we choose is decently unambiguous. — kwami (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Not sure if it was you or someone else I saw recently saying Ethnologue isn't a reliable source. I don't think I know enough to get any more involved in this. Dougweller (talk) 08:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Could've been me. Ethn. is a great resource, but shouldn't be accepted w/o verification. — kwami (talk) 08:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

In Bangldesh

This section may need to be deleted, as the language discussed in the references appears to be Chin, Bawm [bgr], a Central Kukish language, and not Zou [zom] at all. --Bejnar (talk) 19:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

In India

The citation provided speaks about the Zo as a whole, and not about Zou [zom] language speakers, therefore the area stated appears to be over-broad. The cited article is quite interesting and looks as if it might be a good basis for a political article about the struggle for ethnic identity among the Zo people. Such an article might have the Kuki–Zomi Ethnic Clash 1997–98 article moved into it as a subsection. --Bejnar (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

In Burma, looking for source

The statement of area is unsourced. The area described with three places is disingenuous as Chin Hills and Chin State are essentially synonymous, and Tiddim is Tedim Township in Falam District of Chin State. I suspect, but have no source as yet, that the Zou [zom] speakers are mostly in Tedim Township. --Bejnar (talk) 20:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

a Zo lingua franca ?

The cited thesis from Oral Roberts University (currently FN7) has an interesting bit, ignoring the author's inadequacies in English:

The commonly used language is Tedim dialect which they called "Zo Pau." It is the common language for the Zomi because it is the language that every native speaker of different dialects can understand. The missionaries who evangelized the Zomi also called Kam Hau dialect for the Tedim dialect.⁹ Particularly, the Zomi currently residing in Tuls, Oklahoma still speak different Zo dialects. However, all understand the Tedim (Kam Hau) dialect because it is the common language for all the Zomi. page 7 and 8

The citation 9 says: Nelson and Cox, 42, (Kam Hau and Tedim dialect are one and the same because of Kam Hau's ruled over Tedim township during the time when the American missionaries came to Tedim.) Nelson, Phileda O. and Cox, Karen nelson (2000title=Rough Roads, Good Life). Norton, Kansas: self-published. OCLC 56612484. {{cite book}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); Missing or empty |title= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Notice how the description of a Tedim dialect Zo "lingua franca" in Nang Khen Khup's thesis (above) corresponds to the description of Hakha Chin language from Falam Township. There is no love lost between Tedim and Falam (see below), so the claim of breath seems exagerated in both cases.

In the Tedim Wikipedia article is says: In 1840, in order to secure peace, the remaining citizens invited the leadership of Kam Hau of Mualbem, of the emerging Sukte family, since they had good military and political ties with the Zahau family of the Pawis. Sing K. Khai, Zo People and Their Culture (Lamka, Churachanpur, India: Kampu Hatzaw, 1995), 25-27 (Khai comments on the emergence of the Sukte family as a matter of fear of the Pawis of present Falam, that Khan Thuam and his son, Kam Hau, ruled as their vassal). Pau Vum was the Prime Minister of the Kamhau State. --Bejnar (talk) 03:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

@Bejnar:, thanks for your contributions! As a linguist who is studying the Northern Chin language Sizang (ISO-683 csy), I also have a slight knowledge of Tedim and Zou. Speakers of Zou generally come from the Tonzang area of the Northern Chin state of Burma, whereas the speakers of Tedim come from the Tedim township. It has been mentioned several times to me by Sizang speakers, that a Chin person's language depends simply upon where he was born. I would disagree slightly with that, but the idea is that a Chin person is not simply a "Sizang" or a "Zo" or "Thadou", but he's defined partially by his father's birthplace and (if male) his own. That being said, in recent years, Tedim is the language of wider communication in the Northern Chin Hills of Burma, there is no question about that. However, most Tedim and Sizang speakers that I've talked to about Zou, have said that, while Zou is similar to Tedim, it is also quite different and often difficult to understand. In regards to "Zopau", as the author stated in the ORU thesis above, this is an ethnolinguistic term, more or less. In many viewpoints, such as Sing Khaw Khai's (cited above) and that of Dr.Vumson Suantak (Suantak, Vumson (1985). Zo History: With an introduction to Zo Culture, Economy, Religion and Their Status as an Ethnic Minority in India, Burma, and Bangladesh. Aizawl, India: self-published.) "Zo" refers to the original progenator of the Chin people, which envelopes also the Mizo, Hakha, Falam, and even the Southern Chin groups. "Zopau" refers mostly to Paite, Tedim, or Zou of the Northern Chin languages. If my memory serves me correctly, the Zou refer to their language as "Zohau" (consonant shift). So, the "zopau" the author is referring to in his OSU thesis, is indeed Tedim Chin and not Zou.—FKLinguista (talk) 13:58, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Possible sources

In his paper on "The process of Chiming in Tiddim Chin", Peti Bhaskararao cites Henerson, Eugene J. A. (1964). Tiddim Chin: A descriptive analysis of two texts. London: Oxford University Press.

This paper deals with Tedim and not Zou, so I don't believe it is a valid source for this language. FKLinguista (talk) 13:59, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Ostapirat, Weera (1998). "Linguistics of the Tibeto-Burman Area" (PDF). 2 (1). Melbourne, Australia: La Troupe University: 235–248. Archived from the original (PDF) on 6 February 2014. {{cite journal}}: |chapter= ignored (help); Cite journal requires |journal= (help); Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help) --Bejnar (talk) 03:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)