Talk:Zeus/Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2017

In the lead, please change the first "was" to "is"; he still is "...in ancient Greek religion". 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:E9E4:907C:2027:59D6 (talk) 20:53, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

DonePincrete (talk) 17:09, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

ZUES

zues first wife is hera . zues roman name is Jupiter he can transform into anything he wants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.241.171.173 (talk) 23:50, 31 January 2018 (UTC)

This is not a coherent comment.Heptanitrocubane (talk) 20:22, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Large gap under 'consorts and children' section'

There is a large gap under that subtitle, could someone remove it? Thanks, Heptanitrocubane (talk) 20:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Pronunciation

It says the pronunciation is /zjuːs/, yet in most dialects of english, /j/ is dropped in this case. Should this be changed to /zuːs/ or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gdog1102 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

Zeus and his 7 wives

A note at the bottom of the article explains that, according to Hesiod's Theogony, Zeus had 7 wives. Who were the wives and what was the order of marriage. My understanding is that the first was the Oceanid Metis.

ICE77 (talk) 06:48, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

See Theogony#Children of Zeus and his seven wives. Paul August ☎ 19:17, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I eventually read the original text from Theogony (886-923) and resolved the issue (reason for removing unnecessary text).

ICE77 (talk) 00:42, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Five sources on infancy of Zeus: documentation and discrepancies

The section on the infancy of Zeus states that "Rhea hid Zeus in a cave on Mount Ida in Crete". This is only true according to Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book V 70.1-3). Therefore, the statement should be followed by a source.

The article then lists the variants on the infancy of Zeus but none of them has a source:

1. He was then raised by Gaia.

2. He was raised by a goat named Amalthea, while a company of Kouretes— soldiers, or smaller gods— danced, shouted and clashed their spears against their shields so that Cronus would not hear the baby's cry (see cornucopia). According to some versions of this story he was reared by Amalthea in a cave called Dictaeon Andron (Psychro Cave) in Lasithi plateau.

3. He was raised by a nymph named Adamanthea. Since Cronus ruled over the Earth, the heavens and the sea, she hid him by dangling him on a rope from a tree so he was suspended between earth, sea and sky and thus, invisible to his father.

4. He was raised by a nymph named Cynosura. In gratitude, Zeus placed her among the stars.

5. He was raised by Melissa, who nursed him with goat's milk and honey.

6. He was raised by a shepherd family under the promise that their sheep would be saved from wolves.

For items 1, 4, 5 and 6 I have no clue where they come from (I would like to know).

Item 2 is in line with Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book V 70.1-3). However, Diodorus Siculus mentions Mount Idê which is Idaeon Antron (Ἰδαίον Ἄντρον) in the center of Crete and not Dictaeon Antron (Δικταῖον Ἄντρον) in the east of Crete. The only time Dictaeon Antron is mentioned is with Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 1.1.6). Item 2 should be split into two. It's not the same story.

Item 3 is inline with Hyginus (Fabulae, 139) but I am skeptical Hyginus mentioned Adamanthea since I saw notes on the Perseus Digital Library using Amalthea (I could not check Hyginus however since it's not available on either the Perseus Digital Library or Theoi). I anybody has an online source please provide it.

I have done a considerable amount of reading on the subject and I can state this for 5 texts:

• According to Hesiod (Theogony, 453-489) Cronos sired with his wife Rhea the gods Hestia, Demeter, Hera, Hades, Poseidon (“loud-crashing Earth-Shaker”) and Zeus. However, Cronos swallowed every child because he learned from Gaia and Uranus that he was destined to be overcome by his own son. Rhea was about to give birth to Zeus so she sought Gaia (“Earth”) and Uranus (“starry Heaven”) to devise a plan to save the children and to eventually get retribution on Cronos for his evil acts against his father and offspring. Rhea secretly gave birth to Zeus in Crete in Lyctus and hid the baby in a cave on Mount Aegaeon. Then she handed Cronos a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes which he promptly swallowed (thinking that it was his son).

• According to Callimachus (Hymn I to Zeus, 4-53), who clearly had doubts, Zeus was either born in Dikte (mountain in Greece) or Lycaeum (mountain in Arcadia) (4-6). Then he stated that Zeus was born in Parrhasia (southwestern Arcadia) (10). Zeus was handed over to a nymph called Neda (33-34). Neda carried Zeus from Thenae to Cnosus. The Cyrbantes (Corybantes/Curetes), the Dictaean Meliae (ash-tree nymphs) and Adrasteia laid him to rest in a “cradle of gold” and fed Zeus with the milk of the goat Amaltheia and “sweet honey-comb”. Around Zeus The Curetes danced a war-dance beating their armours so that Cronus might not hear the sound of his infant son (42-53).

• According to Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book V 70.1-3) there is no agreement regarding how Zeus became the king. He stated that Zeus succeeded Cronus in a just and customarily manner rather than violently. However, others have a different opinion and say that Cronus received an oracle that informed him that a son would take his powers by force. Rhea then gave birth to Zeus and hid him on Mount Idê where she handed her baby to the Curetes who gave him to the Nymphs to raise. The Nymphs nurtured Zeus with a mixture of honey and milk from a goat named Amaltheia. According to Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca historica, Book V 70.5) “wishing to preserve an immortal memorial of his close association with the bees” Zeus changed their color to golden bronze and “since the region lay at a very great altitude [Mount Ida], where fierce winds blew about it and heavy snows fell, he made the bees insensible to such things and unaffected by them”.

• According to Hyginus (Fabulae, 139) Zeus was nursed by the nymph Amalthea who hung the baby’s cradle on a tree so that he was suspended between the sky, the earth and the sea (all of which were ruled by his father Cronos).

• According to Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 1.1.5-7) Cronus wedded his sister Rhea but since Gaia (“Earth”) and Uranus (“Sky”) prophesized that he would be overcome by his own son, he swallowed all his children starting from Hestia, proceeding with Demeter, Hera, Hades (“Pluto”) and ending with Poseidon. The enraged Rhea went to Crete when she was pregnant with Zeus and brought him forth in a cave of Dicte. Then she gave her child to the Curetes and two nymphs, Adrastia and Ida, daughters of Melisseus. The nymphs fed baby Zeus with the milk of Amalthea while the Curetes clashed their spears and shields to make enough noise in order to prevent Cronos from hearing his son’s voice.

I suggest to update the article with the notes I typed above and to clarify/produce notes for items 1, 4, 5 and 6 of the current list. The infancy section needs sources!

ICE77 (talk) 01:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

FYI: Hyginus, Fabulae 139. Paul August ☎ 11:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Here's the summary for item 3 which confirms the "nymph Adamanthea" is actually "nurse Amalthea":

• According to Hyginus (Fabulae, 139), when Opis (Rhea) gave birth to Jupiter (Zeus) by Saturn (Cronos) Juno (Hera) asked for the baby. Saturn at that point had already cast Orcus (Hades) beneath Tartarus and Neptune (Poseidon) below the seas because he knew that if a son was born to him, he would lose his throne. Therefore, when Saturn told Opis to give him the newborn to eat she gave him a stone wrapped in “swaddling clothes” which he swallowed. After he realized what really happened Saturn went all over the earth in search of Jupiter. In the meantime Juno brought Jupiter to the island of Crete. Amalthea, a nurse, placed him in a cradle that she hung in a tree so that the infant could not be found in the sky, on the earth or in the sea. In order to avoid the boy’s crying from being heard she called some youngsters, gave them small bronze shield and spear and ordered them to create a “ruckus” around the tree. “In Greek they are called Curetes, others call them Corybantes, but they are also called by the name Lares”.

ICE77 (talk) 06:55, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

I removed sources 1, 4, 5 and 6 since they have no sources whatsoever. I previously provided sources for items 2 and 3 above which I updates accordingly. Feel free to add the 3 other sources I provided to the article (Hesiod, Callimachus and Diodorus Siculus).

ICE77 (talk) 20:13, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

This source, A Dictionary of Greek and Roman biography and mythology - Ed. William Smith, gives a summary of the various versions of the myths :"Hesiod (Theog. 116, &c.) also calls Zeus the son of Cronos and Rhea 1, … Before the hour of birth came, Uranus and Ge sent Rhea to Lyetos in Crete, requesting her to bring up her child there. Rhea accordingly concealed her infant in a cave of Mount Aegaeon, and gave to Cronos a stone wrapped up in cloth, which he swallowed in the belief that it was his son. Other traditions state that Zeus was born and brought up on Mount Dicte or Ida (also the Trojan Ida), Ithome in Messenia, Thebes in Boeotia, Aegion in Achaia, or Olenos in Aetolia. According to the common account, however, Zeus grew up in Crete".

I found this source on the Diktaion Andron article and it appears to confirm the two 'Cretan mountain cave' versions of the myth. I am unfamiliar with classical sources, but can confirm that these two versions of the myth (Mount Ida and Lasithi plateau) are both widely believed in Crete. Pincrete (talk) 18:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

William Smith is not an original source. He wrote in the 1800s and all he does is to paraphrase a story that is consistent with Hesiod which I already paraphrased above (Theogony, 453-489). He mentions Diktaeon Antron (east of Crete) and Idaeon Antron (central Crete) which I both visited and a bunch of other places with no sources whatsoever - therefore not much useful. Also, the reference to "Hesiod (Theog. 116, &c.)" does not even seem correct since that part of Theogony covers the Cosmogony and not the birth of Zeus. You can see Theoi (http://www.theoi.com/Text/HesiodTheogony.html#2) and Perseus Digital Library (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0104%3Aalphabetic+letter%3DZ%3Aentry+group%3D2%3Aentry%3Dzeus-bio-1).

ICE77 (talk) 06:48, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

My understanding of WP policy is that secondary and tertiary sources are preferred to 'original sources'. If you have been to these two places, you know that these versions of the myths are widely disseminated and believed. I can see the sense in distinguishing between versions of the myth which are borne out by known classical authors and those whose origin is unknown or uncertain. I don't see the sense of excluding those which are not known to be supported by named classical authors. This appears to me to be textbook WP:OR - effectively passing judgement on tertiary sources in order to 'validate' them. Pincrete (talk) 07:59, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Athena as the last child of Zeus to be born

Note 85 says "According to Hesiod, Theogony 886–890, of Zeus' children by his seven wives, Athena was the first to be conceived, but the last to be born; Zeus impregnated Metis then swallowed her, later Zeus himself gave birth to Athena "from his head", see Gantz, pp. 51–52, 83–84."

I would like to change the note to "According to Hesiod's Theogony (886-923), Zeus had seven wives or companions. Zeus impregnated his first wife Metis and then swallowed her. Therefore, Athena was the first child to be conceived. Later Zeus himself gave birth to Athena from his head".

The reason for the request is that I do not see an indication for Athena to have been the last child to be born in the literature I have read so far - Hesiod (Theogony, 886-900 and 929a-929t) and Pseudo-Apollodorus (Bibliotheca, 1.3.7). Yes, it is correct to say she was born after Zeus wedded Hera but I am not aware of a text that says she was truly the last child of Zeus (if you know of a text I'd like to know what it is).

ICE77 (talk) 01:05, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Well here's Hesiod, Theogony 901–926:

Next he married bright Themis who bore the Horae (Hours), and Eunomia (Order), Dikë (Justice), and blooming Eirene (Peace), who mind the works of mortal men, and the Moerae (Fates) to whom wise Zeus gave the greatest honor, [905] Clotho, and Lachesis, and Atropos who give mortal men evil and good to have. And Eurynome, the daughter of Ocean, beautiful in form, bore him three fair-cheeked Charites (Graces), Aglaea, and Euphrosyne, and lovely Thaleia, [910] from whose eyes as they glanced flowed love that unnerves the limbs: and beautiful is their glance beneath their brows. Also he came to the bed of all-nourishing Demeter, and she bore white-armed Persephone whom Aidoneus carried off from her mother; but wise Zeus gave her to him. [915] And again, he loved Mnemosyne with the beautiful hair: and of her the nine gold-crowned Muses were born who delight in feasts and the pleasures of song. And Leto was joined in love with Zeus who holds the aegis, [920] and bore Apollo and Artemis delighting in arrows, children lovely above all the sons of Heaven. Lastly, he made Hera his blooming wife: and she was joined in love with the king of gods and men, and brought forth Hebe and Ares and Eileithyia. But Zeus himself gave birth from his own head to bright-eyed Tritogeneia, [i.e. Athena], [925] the awful, the strife-stirring, the host-leader, the unwearying, the queen, who delights in tumults and wars and battles.

So of his children by his seven wives, Athena's birth is the last one mentioned. I think it's reasonable to assume that Hesiod is mentioning his children here in the order of their birth. But I agree he does not seem to say so explicitly, and more importantly, I can't find where the cited secondary source Gantz, says this either.

I've rewritten the note as follows:

According to Hesiod's Theogony, of Zeus' children by his seven wives, Athena was the first to be conceived; Zeus impregnated Metis then swallowed her (886–890), later after mentioning the birth of his other children, Hesiod says that Zeus himself gave birth to Athena "from his head" (924–926), see Gantz, pp. 51–52, 83–84.

Paul August ☎ 11:50, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Achilles

It says under the Trojan War "Achilles (his son)" but Achilles' parents are Thetis and Peleus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.77.27 (talk) 03:28, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. Excellent catch. I have no idea who wrote that, but that person was clearly mistaken. I have removed the parenthetical claiming that Achilles was Zeus's son. --Katolophyromai (talk) 03:33, 26 August 2018 (UTC)

Zeus vs. Indra

Inexplicably, this write-up omits any mention of the Vedic god Indra who rules over the Vedic pantheon and uses lightning as his weapon. At the very least Indra should be mentioned under "foreign gods".Sooku (talk) 08:26, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Because Zeus is cognate with the Vedic Dyaus, both derived from the Proto-Indo-European *Dyeus. Ian.thomson (talk) 08:56, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Also it's not omitted, at least not now. Indra is mentioned (and linked) twice, once in the article and once in the infobox. LjL (talk) 12:05, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Removed Indra from infobox, since Zeus is equivalent of Brihaspati and Jupiter, not Indra. Although, lightning is common aspect. It might be the case that lightning powers were ascribed to Indra later, in Puranic period, not in Rigvedic period.

Weird creationist sentence

The last sentence in the middle part of Zeus's notable conflicts seems oddly creationist to me.

When Zeus was atop Mount Olympus he grew upset with mankind and the sacrifices they were performing on one another. Furiously, he decided it would be smart to wipe out mankind with a gigantic flood using the help of his brother Poseidon, King of the Seas. Killing every human except Deucalion and Pyrrha, Zeus flooded the entire planet but then realized he then had to restore society with new people. After clearing all the water, he had Deucalion and Pyrrah create humans to repopulate the earth using stones that became humans. These stones represented the "hardness" of mankind and the man life. This story has been told different ways and in different time periods between Ancient Greek Mythology and The Bible, although the base of the story remains true.[79]

"altough the base of the story remains true" Very weird ending to a paragraph about a mythological tale of a great flood wiping out mankind. The source is a christian website.

I´m sorry if i have made any technical mistakes. First time editing.

NvL — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A04:AE04:7C03:4800:D0FA:A443:D100:9BD (talk) 15:44, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Definitely a sentence added, if not necessarily by creationists per se (in the sense that they believe the Christian creation myth to be literally true), by people who take the Biblical flood narrative to be literal truth (or at least close to literal truth); this has no place in Wikipedia, so I'm removing it. Hppavilion1 (talk) 23:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

That *gestures to the top comment* is definitely true. I read about it in a book on Grecian myths Dragonlover21 (talk) 19:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)<

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2020

zeus is the god of lightning not thunder 117.97.179.67 (talk) 11:01, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Zeus is the god of both lightning and thunder. Dragonlover21 (talk) 19:08, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

'Consort' seems a poor choice of title in the table to describe a rape victim

I note that there are differing versions of the myths. However, labelling the mortals as consorts seems to come down on the side of seduction quite heavily. My suggestion is to change 'Divine Lovers' to 'Divinities' and 'Consort' to 'Mortals'.

CeramicBird (talk) 11:03, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2020

In the section "Family-- Zeus and Hera" it is implied that they had Ares, Hebe, and Hephaestus, or Hera had them herself. However, only Hephaestus was possibly produced by only Hera and the other two were offspring of both, not Hera's alone. 2601:646:8600:C310:7D56:B599:A01B:5582 (talk) 01:42, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done It's not implied, it's outright stated. The article on Hebe indicates that Orphic variants on the myth (which differed regularly from the more commonly known Homeric ones) probably had Hebe as just the daughter of Hera and not Zeus. The article on Ares mentions that Ovid describes Mars as the son of Juno but not Jupiter. The idea of a solid single story is rather Abrahamic (and even that was historically fighting against a tide, resulting in Judaism, Christianity, Gnosticism, and Islam). Ian.thomson (talk) 01:50, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 August 2020

"Mythology" section, "Infancy" subsection: Change "A a company of soldiers called Kouretes danced, shouted and clashed their spears against their shields so that Cronus would not hear the baby's cry." to "A company of soldiers called Kouretes danced, shouted and clashed their spears against their shields so that Cronus would not hear the baby's cry.Wjstrazzy (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2020 (UTC) Wjstrazzy (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The two phrases are identical, I don't know what the change is supposed to be. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2020

Zeus was the king of all gods — Preceding unsigned comment added by X2zynx (talk • contribs) 19:04, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 19:29, 14 October 2020 (UTC)

Two things to consider: Zeus, though prominent, was not necessarily "king of the gods"; and, secondly, Perun is likely Neptune/Poseidon and NOT Zeus... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:5CC:8200:8DB0:F1BD:18C9:B07D:9413 (talk) 10:47, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

No credit for the voice actor in Blood of Zeus

The way the article is currently written, it suggests that Sean Bean voiced Zeus in Blood of Zeus, rather than Jason O'Mara, who actually voiced him. I suggest the change from "Rip Torn in the Disney animated feature Hercules, Sean Bean in Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief (2010). and the Netflix movie Blood of Zeus." to "Rip Torn in the Disney animated feature Hercules; Sean Bean in Percy Jackson and the Olympians: The Lightning Thief (2010); and Jason O'Mara the Netflix movie Blood of Zeus." Rokkema (talk) 23:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)Rokkema

Done Though the section may be overpadded IMO. Knowing the many representations may be valid but not necessarily the players. Pincrete (talk) 14:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 October 2021

Add mythological theories about Zeus's great grandfather; Ouranus's father. 25preston.guy (talk) 18:42, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:48, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2021

Aphrodite is not the child of Zeus, she is in fact his aunt. There is an error on this page which states she is his daughter. Thanks. 209.52.62.19 (talk) 07:41, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

This is not an error. It depends on the source. Hesiod states that Aphrodite is his aunt, while Homer states that she is his daughter. NeoSIMIAN-Terraform (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:58, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Sources for mythology

I was glad to see Michael Aurel's removal of Alagonia as only sourced to Natalis Comes. He (Natalis Comes) would be high on my list of deprecated sources but others have more familiarity with the range. I've stumbled on another case today. In Zeus#Children, we've listed Athena twice, the second time as a child of Themis. The source turns out to be Diodorus retailing, with little comment, Euhemerus's extraordinary account of Uranus, Cronos and Zeus as mortal kings.[1] The same table has the Curetes as children of Hera and Zeus with the same source. Should we be inclusive and keep such mentions, or treat them as unhelpful to the reader and remove them per WP:UNDUE as simply too outré? NebY (talk) 18:45, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

@NebY: No problem. The DGRBM entry made it pretty clear that information came only from Natalis Comes, who (as you've pointed out) we shouldn't be using as a source. Regarding Euhemerus's alternative parentage of Athena, this seems to get at the issue with these tables. Lack of sourcing leads to the inclusion of obscure versions which hardly add anything for the reader. The table format puts these versions right next to much more "accepted" (not really the right word) versions, leading to Hesiod being juxtaposed with Pseudo-Clement as if they're both the same. I suspect that many entries were added without looking at the actual text, and were likely copied from an unreliable secondary source (such as Theoi.com) or from other Wikipedia articles. I personally think the criterion for entry should be mention in reliable secondary sources (or at least one such source). While a table like this should be inclusive, there does need to be some sort of barrier to entry, otherwise we end up with, for example, something sourced only to Natalis Comes. Mere existence in a primary source in my opinion shouldn't necessarily warrant a place in the table (though possibly there could be exceptions?). Of course, in practice, this would require sourcing the table, at least semi-adequately (quite a big job); I suppose I can have a go... – Michael Aurel (talk) 01:42, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I do agree we should be using reliable secondary sources, and wouldn't even count the DGRBM unexamined. We're editors, not compilers, and if we consider using primary sources we should be be discriminating in what we include. I do worry that in making the tables look better, I've made them seem more reliable – which said, are there any I should look at apart from the Olympians? On the other hand, checking every entry will/would be a massive task. What I have done just now is check the articles on Uranus, Cronos, Zeus and all the others mentioned in Diodorus's account of Euhemerus's satirical invention, and happily only found those entries in Zeus#Children and a sentence in Themis to remove. I'll also look for every remaining mention of Natalis Comes to see if any are citations, but not just now. NebY (talk) 12:14, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I have a suggestion regarding Hesiod and more obscure sources being treated the same. How about we add a table containing only the offspring mentioned by Hesiod (and maybe Homer?), and then have another table or two listing other accounts that are not mentioned by Hesiod. Or, perhaps we could denote the offspring mentioned by Hesiod in bold:

Offspring	Mother
Angelos, Ares,3 Arge, Eileithyia, Eleutheria, Enyo, Eris, Hebe,3 Hephaestus,3	Hera

Like this. I don't know if this is a good idea though. NeoSIMIAN-Terraform (talk) 12:29, 6 January 2021 (UTC)

indents adjusted, hope that's OK That use of bold goes against WP:BOLD and sooner or later it would be undone - often quite quickly! I've seen "(possibly)" used and on reflection dislike it; after all, we wouldn't mark any of these "actually" or "really". We could perhaps mark some as "rarely" but even so, there are some we simply shouldn't include, however we might mark them, because they're inventions (satirical, defamatory, wild Renaissance, whatever) that don't reflect classical mythology. NebY (talk) 19:25, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I've removed "(possibly)", as it hardly adds anything meaningful, considering that such a tag could be applied to many entries in this table. Also, regarding sourcing, I am particularly concerned by how many entries in the table are cited only to Pseudo-Clement (Recognitions 10.21–3). – Michael Aurel (talk) 02:17, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Michael Aurel: I've just looked at that Pseudo-Clementine passage. Good grief. I didn't settle down and assess each claim in the dense list, but jumped to "By his own daughter Ceres he begot Persephone" and "Europa, the wife of his own uncle Oceanus", and now I can only see it as wildly deviant from classical mythology, blatantly invented for defamatory purposes, and not a reliable source. Well. I quite agree with your removal of "(possibly)" and I'd favour everything sourced to that Pseudo-Clement passage being removed or at the very least, the citations replaced with {{cn}}. NebY (talk) 16:47, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I've removed all of the entries that were cited only to Pseudo-Clement. I checked each of their articles as I went, and could find no indication that these versions came from anywhere else other than Pseudo-Clement or had any secondary sources to back them up. Now the table's been shortened, we could maybe think about creating a separate table for Hesiod. – Michael Aurel (talk) 02:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Can't we just use a separate "Hesiod" table and "other sources" table then?

Offspring and mothers (Hesiod)

Offspring	Mother
Heracles	Alcmene
Persephone	Demeter
Charites/ Graces (Aglaea, Euphrosyne, Thalia)	Eurynome
Ares, Eileithyia, Hebe	Hera
Apollo, Artemis	Leto
Hermes	Maia
Athena	Metis
Muses (Calliope, Clio, Euterpe, Erato, Melpomene, Polyhymnia, Terpsichore, Thalia, Urania)	Mnemosyne
Dionysus	Semele
Moirai (Atropos, Clotho, Lachesis), Horae (Dike, Eirene, Eunomia)	Themis

I have also noticed that the links to the Horae in Zeus's table actually link to the Muses. NeoSIMIAN-Terraform (talk) 07:25, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@NeoSIMIAN-Terraform: I'm warming to your separate Hesiod table. I wondered if we should add Homer, but that could complicate the table with differences and then open the question of who else might be added as authoritative. A Hesiod table would also allow straightforward secondary sourcing for the fact that Hesiod made the assertions. We'd still have to consider what we'd include in an "other sources" table and what we'd leave out, of course, and not just in this article, but it would be a good start and clear to readers. Good catch on the Horae too! I quickly looked in other articles to see if it might be an error pasted from elsewhere, but didn't find any problems. NebY (talk) 16:58, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@NebY:, @Michael Aurel: I have excluded everything with a cn tag and the genealogies already mentioned in the "Hesiod" table from the "other sources" tables in my sandbox. Should we change the tables now, or wait until everything is cited? Or should we rather not change at all? Also, what to do with the six "footnotes" that are below the tables? NeoSIMIAN-Terraform (talk) 10:28, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@NeoSIMIAN-Terraform: I think the separate table for Hesiod could possibly work, and if we're going to do it, I don't see any problem with going ahead and doing it now (the missing sources can be filled in afterwards). Regarding the footnotes, I think they can probably be removed (or possibly reworked?), considering that they mostly seem to mention the version in which the character in question is not a child of Zeus. If they are going to be kept or redone in some way, we should at least use proper footnotes that link (this is an example of notes being used in a table, with the notelist under the table). – Michael Aurel (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I also think could there could be a possibility of incorporating genealogy charts in the text; for example this family tree of the seven wives of Zeus would surely work well in the corresponding section in this article. – Michael Aurel (talk) 11:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I have now added the separate Hesiod table and have removed a few entries for which I couldn't find a reliable source. I have also removed the footnotes. –NeoSIMIAN-Terraform (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Michael Aurel: I think that genealogy chart would be nice. –NeoSIMIAN-Terraform (talk) 16:37, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Tdisibio.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Stacey.banh.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:27, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Human sacrifices

it said that zeus was not pleased with humans sacrifices so he and Poseidon flooded the world. That sounds very similar to in the story if the jews when the flood that wiped out all of man.

DMPenguin (talk) 21:08, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

It sounds similar to any number of flood myths from various eras and cultures. The typical story is that one or more deities get angry and proceed to destroy the majority of humanity. Some of the myths may reflect fragmented memories of real-life floods, such as the one which is thought to have damaged the city of Shuruppak at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period. Others may reflect memories of real-life tsunamis, like the one caused by the Minoan eruption. Basically, people survive a natural disaster and mythmakers try to explain why it happened. Dimadick (talk) 08:22, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2022

Zeus is the god of lightning 203.206.28.227 (talk) 06:21, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Mako001 (C)  (T)  🇺🇦 06:22, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

In modern culture

In this edit, @Paul August: removed the entire "in modern culture" section. Although I agree that that section had too much detail and too many trivial mentions, I do not agree that the section should be removed. In fact, I'd argue that the section should be renamed "In art and culture", and cover not just modern novels and films, but also depictions of Zeus in art through the ages, including works by Titian, Rubens, Ingres, Renoir, Thorvaldsen, etc. --Macrakis (talk) 22:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I'll repeat what I said in my edit summary: "No sources establishing relevance, significance and notability with respect to the article's subject. Mere existence in some other context is not sufficient reason to warrant mention here." Sources which do establish such "relevance, significance and notability with respect" to Zeus might be found for some of these, in which case we can always add them back. Paul August ☎ 00:35, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Oh and as for a section which covers "depictions of Zeus in art through the ages", I'm all for that, provided we have scholarly sources to write from (as opposed to say just a list of examples). Paul August ☎ 00:41, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

There is no requirement that reliable sources be scholarly. --Macrakis (talk) 18:20, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I also disagree on removing the entire section given that parts are well sourced. Sariel Xilo (talk) 18:47, 19 March 2023 (UTC)