Talk:Zaire/Archive 1

move page name from Zaire → Zaïre

Simple misspelling. Zaire is incorrect. Nicholas 15:11, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC) (copied from Wikipedia:Requested moves by Philip Baird Shearer)

Oh no it is not. Google about 33,500 English pages for Zaïre, 2,350,000 English pages for Zaire. Also see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) -- Philip Baird Shearer 16:04, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What does that prove? That people aren't sure how to get the ï character on their keyboards? - XED.talk.stalk.mail.csb 17:42, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

Most English dictionaries e.g. Oxford spell the name Zaire without the accent or umlaut. It is rare in English to have any accents on common place names.--BrentS 05:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Page move discussion

(from Wikipedia:Requested moves)

Zaire → Zaïre

Simple misspelling. Zaire is incorrect. Nicholas 15:11, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

• Oppose Oh no it isn't. Google about 32,500 English pages for Zaïre, 2,350,000 English pages for Zaire Philip Baird Shearer 15:21, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC).
• Oppose Most people wouldn't use the diaeresis. jguk 16:04, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose Use most common name in the English language. older≠wiser 16:33, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. Zaire is the English name, and that's all there is to it. ADH (t&m) 16:54, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
• Support. Google results are irrelevant, and just show many people are unsure how to get the ï character on their keyboard. The diacritic issue is also irrelevant, as the article on Côte d'Ivoire shows. Zaire should redirerct to Zaïre, not the other way around.- XED.talk.stalk.mail.csb 17:53, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Support for Xed's reasons. -- Netoholic @ 18:51, 2004 Dec 31 (UTC)
• Oppose. →Raul654 19:11, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
• Oppose. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Niteowlneils 03:24, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. I would never think of spelling Zaire with an umlaut, but that's not the issue. If the article was already at Zaïre I would oppose a move to Zaire; on the other hand there is no reason to move it the other way. Leave it be. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 03:42, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• err, yup. Oppose. SECProto 19:02, Jan 1, 2005 (UTC)
• Support. Most people don't know or care how to type the diaeresis, but Wikipedia should use the correct orthography. "Zaïre" is not spelled differently, it's just more precisely entered. And not that Google searches prove anything, but how did you get those results? Google treats i and ï as the same letter (which it is). Searching English-language pages, I getabout 2,180,000 results for Zaire and2,170,000 for Zaïre. —Michael Z. 10:01, 2005 Jan 2 (UTC)

You are not using Google with the defaults used in a counry where the primary language is English:

• about 32,600 English pages for Zaïre.
• about 2,070,000 English pages for Zaire

Google uses different defaults in diffrent countries for example in Germany searches wrap "u" "ü" and "ue" into one, but not in English speaking countries where they are by default 3 diffrent things --Philip Baird Shearer 10:54, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

That doesn't sound right. I'm in Canada, and get the same results whether searching with Google.com or Google.ca (English version). —Michael Z. 22:31, 2005 Jan 4 (UTC)

The diaeresis is properly used for Zaïre in French (remember it used to be the Belgian Congo). My guess is that as you're searching from a country that has French as an official language, you're inadvertently skewing the results, jguk 22:53, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

http://www.google.com.au http://www.google.co.nz http://www.google.co.uk http://www.google.co.za all work the same way. http://www.google.ie http://www.google.ca seem to be set up as bylingual (one of which uses diaeresis) Germany http://www.google.de returns similar results to ca and ie. Philip Baird Shearer 23:14, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Google.com functions identically to Google.ca for connections originating in Canada; the same goes for other localized versions. You can verify this by viewing your search preferences. ADH (t&m) 19:38, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose. Even if Zaïre can be shown to be more correct (which I'm not convinced about), Wikipedia convention (usually) ignores this in favour of common usage. (Which I'm not convinced about either, for proper names, but anyway, that's the apparently-now-set-in-stone convention.) Rd232 10:44, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. I would, obviously, support the move if Zaïre was the English name, but it doesn't seem to be the case - both UN and ISO know it under the name of Zaire. Their list has Åland Islands, Côte d'Ivoire, and Réunion, so it isn't just the fault of stripping diacritics. -- Naive cynic 21:29, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Most English dictionaries e.g. Oxford spell the name Zaire without the accent or diaeresis. It is rare in English to have any accents on common place names. Perhaps others could check other dictionaries in the UK and USA. Zaire with the diaeresis is correct in French.--BrentS 00:35, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Zaire is the common spelling. --Auximines 12:31, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Support - Common but incorrect does not belong in an encyclopaedia. Guettarda 22:20, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose. Zaire is correct in English language use. Jonathunder 22:31, 2005 Jan 9 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are no umlauts in English. Jayjg | (Talk) 22:54, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  It's not an umlaut, it's diaeresis, and it is used in English, although rarely. —Michael Z. 18:15, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)

• Support. English makes many exceptions for non-domestic words, which is one of its strengths; you do not see "samurais" or "erratums," for example. To think otherwise is to be naïve. Almafeta 03:13, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

  This is a matter of orthography, not the formation of irregular plurals; if a word is common enough not to be italicized in running text, it loses the accents. English ditched the diaereses long ago, and anyway, your argument doesn't apply to proper names. ADH (t&m) 07:33, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)

  English hasn't "ditched" the diaeresis, even though it's only rarely used for naïve, Chloë, coöperation, etc. —Michael Z. 18:15, 2005 Jan 11 (UTC)

  Comment: The claim you do not see "samurais" or erratums" is simply false. Both are recognised plural forms of their respective root words. As I said earlier, if this was an article at Zaïre I'd probably vote to keep it there. But moving should be avoided without good reason. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:50, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• Support. Most maps say Zaïre... well they did until it became the DRC.--Greasysteve13 09:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
• Support we don't write naive, it's naïve, so this is the same idea.Cameron Nedland 17:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

If it means anything, it's also Zaïre in Swedish.Cameron Nedland 20:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Goverment - dictatorship?

Is there a difference between a dictatorship and an absolute monarchy? Most country articles seem to use the term absolute monarchy, dictatorship is not even listed on the types of goverment page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_system_of_government

yeah, it's definately not listed there, it seems that most of the terms list the countries which system of gov. based on what it claims to be rather than what it is in reality. i.e. Mubarak's Egypt is listed as a 'presidential republic' despite it's being a virtual dictatorship. i believe zaire was also a presidential republic, supposedly. im torn on whether it should be changed to that for this article in keeping with protocol or not, since dictatorship, doesnt exist but then again, neither does zaire.--Gozar 21:58, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Zaire is a seperate country so it should have a seperate map and shouldn`t be clumped with the Congo.

To answer your question, yes there is a difference. Monarchies, whether limited or absolute, have legitmacy. Dictatorships are, for the most part, done by a coup or by acclaim of the mob. Now, here's a question: how the hell do you pronounce "Zaire"? I've been confused about that for years. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 08:37, 20 May 2006 (UTC).

My God, doesn't this jsut reiterrate the piont of what is giong on in Afirca as a whole rihgt now? I am writing tihs all jumbled up and misspled, but you stil get the piont of waht I am sayiing. Poeple keep getting sidetrakced from what is trueley impottant and wihle poeple are dying and sufering here we are bickering over how to spel a name. God help us....

Origins of the First Congo War

As I have said in other Congo related article, I challenge the neutrality of the argument here, that the first Rwandan invasion, and the rise of the AFDL of Laurent Kabila, were a result of a collusion between interahamwe and ex-FAR forces with Mobutu's military, to attack Tutsis. Mobutu's military did not even have the ability to defend itself. The reason why the Tutsis were in upheaval, was their loss of citizenship, and their persecution by other local groups. Let's call a cat, a cat.Themalau 23:17, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Name origin

Anyone know where the name "Zaire" comes from? I can't see a reference in the article, unless I missed it... 143.252.80.110 10:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, it is from the alternate name of the Congo River, around which Zaire/DRC centers. -Alex, 74.133.188.197 07:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC).

The article STILL doesn't explain why Mobotu changed the country's name TO Zaire. Does anybody know? Did Mobotu ever explain this? -Ken Burch

He changed the name of the country, its cities, and himself in an attempt to eliminate all vestiges of colonialism. Josh (talk) 01:51, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Infobox?

Should this article have an infobox? The population data is outdated, and much of the other info can be found on the Democratic Republic of Congo page. Funnyhat 03:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This article, being about DRC during particular years should be redrawn as such with a different title and maybe some stats about the country as it was at that time e.g population. I don't know whether it should have a box. Probably not as that could leave people with some impression that this was the main page for the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by IceDragon64 (talk • contribs) 23:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Factual and dating mistakes

There are a few factual mistakes here, especially in the infobox:

• Zaire did not start at independance in 1960, but in 1971, by a decision of Mobutu.
• Mobutu did not die on May 16, 1997. He just fled Kinshasa that day, to avoid being captured by the rebel troops of Laurent Desire Kabila. He died in September of that year, in Morocco, where he is buried still.

I corrected those mistakes to the best of my ability.

• The introduction is erroneous in that the only use of the word Zaire before 1971 was in the name of the currency established in 1967. Not before.

Themalau 00:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I fixed the dates and flags a while back. - Thanks, Hoshie 07:46, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

End section

That end section "Democratic Republic of the Congo" doesn't seem to be incorporated with the rest of the article very well. It starts off recapping stuff the article already said. Brutannica 04:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

It isn't and I deleted it for the reasons expressed below in Deleted Section

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Delete ?

I don‘t think this article is justified. The country only changed its name and had a new constitution, it didn't become a new country. It’s still the same country. --moyogo 10:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't rush to delete it- Though you are right in principle. Since wiki articles ofen get too long it might be a useful to bring people here from the main article to discuss this distinct period in history in such detail. Perhaps needs a name change to 'Congo- the Zaire years' or something, with appropriate redirects.

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:18, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Wording

'Any discussion of Zaire's political structures and processes must therefore be based on an understanding of the man who literally gave the country its name.' This line appears irrelevant and subjective. >0 (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

-It does sound rather poetic rather than encylclopedic, but I might let it go since it appears to be true!

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Merging

Perhaps this should be merged with the democratic republic of the congo? They are the same country.

See the section called Delete

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:27, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I definitely agree. There is no reason to have two articles about the same country just because it has changed name. There should be a redirect from Zaire to The Democratic Republic of Congo. --Oddeivind (talk) 18:03, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Deleted section about mercenaries etc.

I am not usually a pushy person on Wikipedia, and I hope I don't offend anyone by removing the section. However, such a lot of info with no in line refs concerns me, especially since it involves such serious accusations about living groups of people and such important events. Some of the info probably has no place here- for example Mercenary agencies probably make offers to all kinds of leaders and news of such is not that significant. This article is about Zaire, which is a doubtful enough idea for a seperate article as it is, without wandering on into the events in the country after the name change. Selected, referenced sections of this info may have a place in the Congo article. IceDragon64 (talk) 23:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

False information removed

For over four years, there had been an inaccuracy in the article corresponding to this page, added in by User:Gozar. "Sésé-Seko Nkuku [sic] Wa Za Banga" is not the name that Mobutu changed his name to, it was preceded by "Mobutu", and it was not his great-uncle's name. It was a name that Mobutu constructed to appease his delusions of grandeur, and it wasn't used "in addition to" his birth name of Joseph-Désiré Mobutu. I could find no sources that state that it was the name of his great uncle.[1] --MohammadMosaddeq (talk) 04:42, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

le zaire a beaucoup de personne tonus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.23.159.212 (talk) 22:36, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Removal of {{Refimprove|date=January 2009}}

There did not appear to be ongoing debate to support the presence of this tag, so I have removed it. These tags are intended to drive improvement through discussion, so it's doing nothing just sitting there. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 02:50, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Rollback to previous version

There were several unattributed changes to various dates, some obvious vandalism some not so much... I've rolled them all back, please feel free to correct me if I was wrong. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 12:46, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Former UN State ?

Zaire is now categorised as a former member of the UN. When did it leave ? Countries change their name and government often. This doesn't make them "former members" of the UN. Unless a State has actually LEFT the U.N., or has ceased to exist because of merger or invasion, or is a newly created state, then it should not be in the former UN member category.Eregli bob (talk) 06:59, 22 July 2011 (UTC)