Talk:Yōkai/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Just How Trivial Does Trivia Need To Be?

I won't argue that anime/ manga/ video game references don't have their place in this encyclopedia, but even if I was going to simply address the issue that nothing in the Popular Culture/Media section is referenced, by Wiki's own standards all that should be gone. They're not even presented in an encyclopedia format, rather endless laundry lists that fail to explain why they are there in the first place. I don't care if the term Yokai appeared in a D&D book or some anime from the 1990s because there is no backing proof to justify the claim, it's called bad editing. So how do we fix this? Ignore it because we might be called a meanie by some 13 year old boy who thinks it's vitally important that InuYasha be mentioned here? (it's not) or delete the offending passages, making the article shorter but, as it would turn out, actually complying with Wiki's own standards? Duende-Poetry (talk) 23:45, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree, there's no call to include every single anime and video game reference here... there are simply too many references in Japanese pop culture, and they don't belong on this page. By all means, link to the yokai page from those pages, but if we don't cut those types of laundry lists out this page will be overrun with unimportant pop culture references. - Osarusan 03:30, 27 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osarusan (talk • contribs)

Foreign Works

The Great Youkai Encyclopedia is NOT the first major work on Youkai in English. I have a feeling that Mr. Freeman inserted that line in on his own, as his book is actually predated by two others: Matt Alt's fun but informative "Yokai Attack!" and Michael Dylan Foster's exceptional "Pandemonium and Parade." I have read Mr. Freeman's book and it is a mess of inaccuracy and false information with academic standards that even casual wikipedia editors would find shameful, not to mention scholars. It is an insult to serious researchers and enthusiasts like Mr. Alt and Mr. Foster to even include The Great Youkai Encyclopedia on this page. I'm new to editing wikipedia, but I have corrected this error. Mr. Freeman, I'm watching you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.25.151 (talk) 01:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

THIS IS NOT FACT IT IS YOUR OPINION!!!!!!!!!!! No doubt you are the ill bred, ill mannered ass who reviwed the book book on Amazon US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.86.138 (talk) 03:13, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

No. Whether or not you think their writing is good, the fact is, the two books I mentioned came out TWO YEARS BEFORE The Great Yokai Encyclopedia. One of them was even used as a source in The Great Yokai Encyclopedia and thus The Great Yokai Encyclopedia CANNOT be claimed as "the first major" anything in this case. Also, I'll have you know that I received The Great Yokai Encyclopedia as a gift and that Amazon requires one to buy something before one can review it. As I did not buy the book, I was not able to review it there. I looked up the review though, and I must say that I agree with it. Please stop it, Mr. Freeman; you're embarrassing yourself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.25.151 (talk) 01:50, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Just letting you know, Mr. Freeman, that you've been reported to Wikipedia for trying to advertise your book on this page in lieu of providing factual information. Go buy some ad space like a real author instead of clogging Wikipedia with untruths to promote your messy "encyclopedia". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.25.151 (talk) 06:42, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

I'll not be brow beated by a coward like you. What the hell do you know about the subject any way? Have YOU done years of research and written a book? You are everything that is wrong with Wikipedia, some jumped up little know nothing fart who thinks he can dictate on subjects he evidently knows nothing about.You are the only one who is embarrassing yourself with you arrogant coments. Besides Yokai Attack is not a major work and Pandemonium and Parade is about modernity not yokai. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.66.197 (talk) 21:24, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I have done years of research. I just haven't written a book. I thought I'd wait awhile before replying to you again (and then I honestly forgot about you) and have come back to see that your book is no longer mentioned anywhere on this page. See? It's not just me; everyone else thinks you're full of crap, too. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.14.71.139 (talk) 06:27, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I actually have done years of research as well as written a book about yokai, and I would never insert my own book as a reference on a Wikipedia article -- especially not with a lie citing it as the first major work in English. Not only is that tasteless and dishonest, it goes directly against Wikipedia's No Original Research policy, and whoever removed the reference was right to do so. --- Osarusan 15:13, 19 May 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osarusan (talk • contribs)

Confusion between Yōkai and Obake

Taken from Yokai article: "Yōkai (妖怪, lit. demon, spirit, or monster?) are a class of obake..." Taken from obake article: "Obake (お化け?) and bakemono (化け物?) (sometimes obakemono) are a class of yōkai in Japanese folklore." This should be looked into. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.182.166.33 (talk) 16:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Top Section

There's got to be a better way to word this, and make two sentences from it: "In the Edo period, many artists, such as Toriyama Sekien, created a lot of yōkai inspired by folklore or their own ideas, and in the present, not a few yōkai created by them (e.g. Kameosa and Amikiri, see below) are wrongly considered as being of legendary origin."

Does "not a few" mean "quite a few" ?

65.24.97.88 (talk) 05:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Films

In all the editting the list of films Yokai appear in (that I added [1]) has got lost. Kibakichi has gone for good and the other films are summed up as "The Yokai Daisenso movie series of the 1960s and 70s, as well as the 2005 remake" but as far as I'm aware that is not the name of the series it is the name of the second film and the 2005 remake (translating as "Big Spook War" or "Great Goblin War") - the first film's name translates as something like "One Hundred Ghost Stories". The best stab I could make for the series is "Yokai Monsters" but this only seems to be the tag ADV used but a Google isn't revealing an alternative although someone better at Japanese might be able to dig out something from a non-English source. (Emperor 17:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC))

The Inuyasha Effect

This section of the article reads as original research and is in desperate need of references if it is not. I suspect it is a fan's interpretation of what's going on, as I doubt any scholarly sources have discussed Inuyasha and its effect on popular perceptions of yokai. Though I'd be happy to be proved wrong. — BrianSmithson 18:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

We may have to move the part about Mizuki's statement. That's easily verified, and we wouldn't want it to be confused with the rest of the OR bit.--み使い Mitsukai 18:40, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Tough call. That one fact is probably citable, but it's used in a broader analysis that reads as more OR. The entire artilcle is in desperate need of references (as many, many articles on Japanese mythology are). — BrianSmithson 19:00, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems that due to the large popularity of the animes series Inuyasha, a distorted view of the definition of youkai is emerging. Youkai is the Japanese pronounciation of the two kanji words "妖怪," which can be literally translated as "mutant" or "freaks." Westerners (or generally people unacquainted with Asian folklore and beliefs) tend to translate "youkai" as "demon." Though "demon" can be a valid translation, it is not an accurate one. Most of the so-called "demons" in Inuyasha are fictional, with an exception of a few (mostly the ones that are commonly known in Asia). Since the term "youkai" is often heavily tied to Buddhism (and even Hinduism), it would be easier to understand the concept of "youkai" by studying Buddhism. The last two words of the title itself, "夜叉" (yasha), is the Japanese pronounciation of the Sanskrit word "Yaksa" (a particular type of demon who eats men).

I have never seen "yokai" translated as "mutant" or "freak". While "mutant", with its connotations of changing, may be a somewhat faithful translation of the similar word "obake", it is not appropriate for "yokai", and its superhero and science fiction connotations in America make it unsuitable for a folkloric term at any rate. Shikino 15:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Toriyama's Invention of Yokai?

I for one would like to see some sources on that, whether in English or in Japanese. While Toriyama is responsible for establishing the basic appearances of many yokai in his Hyakki Yakou, I've never heard or read anywhere else that he invented any of them himself. Shikino 19:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Closest I can come to proof of this is that Sekien (like some Japanese artists, he's more often called by his given name) admits to creating some creatures in his descriptions. Like for Korōka, seen here, he more or less says that he's never heard of a lantern-fire spook, but he thought it up in a dream. Kotengu 小天狗 23:24, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Some other creatures Sekien said that he saw in dreams: Hahakigami, Bake no Kawagoromo, Nyūbachibō and Hyōtankozō, Nyoijizai, Hossumori, Honekarakasa, Boroboroton, Heiroku, Chokuboron, Chirizuka Kaiō, Kaichigo, Kamioni, Kameosa, Taimatsumaru, Tsunohanzō, Narigama, Mukumukabagi, Ungaikyō, Osakōburi, Kutsutsura, Kurayarō, Yamaoroshi, Zenfushō, Fukuro Mujina, Fuguruma Yōhi, Furu Utsubo, Bura Bura, Kotofurunushi, Gotoku Neko, Eritate Goromo, Tenjōname, Abumiguchi, Sazae Oni, Kinu Tanuki, Kyōrinrin, Menreiki, Minowaraji, Shamichōrō, Shōgorō, Shiro Uneri, Biwabokuboku, Mokugyo Daruma, Setodaishō, and Suzuhikohime. Of course he lifted the likenesses for some of these from earlier Hyakki Yakō scrolls and likely was inspired by other things, but the fact remains that a lot of well-known yōkai "types" seem to be artistic rather than folkloric entities. Kotengu 小天狗 00:07, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

New Picture?

I think the picture on this article should be changed. Currently it is a picture of Oiwa, who is a yurei and not a yokai. If no one objects, I will hunt around for a better picture. MightyAtom 04:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right; change it, if you can find something better. —Nightstallion (?) 10:44, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
OK! I changed the image, and added a few more.MightyAtom 02:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree the image should have been changed, but disagree with the statement that Oiwa is not a yokai. Yes, she is a yurei, but in her manifestation as a lantern, she is thus a yokai. Shikino 20:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


For future reference: Dictionary Definition of Yōkai (rough translations)

from here.:

Miraculous phenonema and weird entities which defy human understanding. Tengu, hitotsume-kozō, kappa and other imaginary things. bakemono.

The Japanese wikipedia has a similar, expanded definition:

A yōkai is a supernatural being symbolizing a strange or mysterious phenomenon which humans cannot understand, or otherwise a being from Japanese folklore which demonstrates miraculous abilities that defy common sense. In Europe these beings are called yōsei (fairies).

Tales of oni, tengu, kappa, and other such things remain in great numbers, and so study in the field of folklore advances.

Kotengu 23:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Mononoke = youkai?

I'm having difficulty swallowing this bit of info:

The native Japanese word "mononoke" is also sometimes written with the kanji for yōkai.

I don't think so. I can't say for sure, but im 80 - 90% sure this is bad info. Anyone? 213.172.254.119 21:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect as well, since yokai is derived from a Chinese word. Bakemono, another Japanese word in origin, isn't written with the yokai kanji, so why should mononoke? Aha, here's the proof: Hideki's Dictionary Entry for "Mononoke" --unsigned
It may have been referring to an instance of furigana#Punning and double meaning such as in a manga where the author writes whatever he/she wants as the "pronunciation" for a term. Definitely not worthy of inclusion in the article. —Tokek 10:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Good call. It makes a lot of sense that somebody's misunderstanding of the concept of furigana as a mangaka's personalized tool of artistic freedom would lead to this sort of thing. TomorrowTime 22:06, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Ukiyo-e & Youkai

I've been doing youkai research in Japan for a few years now, and just now looked at Wikipedia's pages. I'm surprised that there is no link showing between Ukiyo-e artists and youkai. I think it is essential for people to know the relation, and the important artists such as Kyousai Kawanabe. They didn't do research into youkai as far as I am aware, but they did paint youkai, yuurei, tons of oni, and the like. erin k. 16:17, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

That sounds great! Please add this section! I look forward to reading it. MightyAtom 04:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture credit for Oiwa at top

Go to the picture and look at the talk page. It has been incorrectly credited to Hokuei- it is a Hokusai print. This is one of the interesting things about Ukiyo-e prints- many of the artists copied each other, changing only 1 or 2 details... --erin k. 03:28, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

The stub for the Oiwa san at the top for Japanese Mythology WikiProject on the image page is labeled "Shunkosai Hokuei obake.jpg". It is incorrect, and should be labeled "Katsushika Hokusai obake jpg". I don't know how to fix it, but maybe someone with more experience than I can go in and play with the switches. Just would like to give credit to the correct dead guy. Official title of the painting is Oiwasan お岩さん. I noted the name troubles on the image talk page for it, but maybe if I put it here, someone will see, go in, and correct it. :) Thanx.
--erin k. 18:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the only way to fix it is to re-upload it...unfortunately my connection is complete crap right now and the image won't upload all the way. If you've got a commons account you can help by saving the original and then going here and clicking the "Upload a new version of this file" link to replace it. Kotengu 小天狗 21:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Resemblance of Youkai to Western Fae?

The similarities have always struck me, including ties to nature, the fact that they are dangerous and beneficent but always capricious, tendency to need to be "invited in," shape-shifting qualities, etc...is this anything worth mentioning in the article (perhaps as a "see also?") or does it qualify too much as original research? Any thoughts about the possibility of adding something about the similarities, especially since it could shed light on the concept for Youkai for those more familiar with western supernatural spirits?

Edit: Looking at the comments that cite the Japanese entry, it even equates Youkai with western Faeries (Yousei). So there really may be some precedent for including the comparison.

--Sailor Titan 03:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Fan enthusiasm

Just made a minor edit to the popular culture section. Changed the lines for Ninja Sentai Kakuranger, and Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle, into smaller links to go with the rest of the list. The "very famous series by CLAMP Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicle" line wasn't really necessary. Plenty of the other series included in the list are equally as renowned/popular anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.118.100.11 (talk) 00:15, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

More of this today. I undid revision 488284129 by LordDumpling referencing a series of self-published video games that happen to have yokai in them. It's not something that can be called a "famous work," and compared with the other items in that section it is more of a pop culture reference than an actual famous work; so to prevent it from just being a list of pop culture references I undid the addition. --- Osarusan 00:34, 22 April 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Osarusan (talk • contribs)

Hanyō

How come Hanyō redirecs here? There is no mention of Hanyō anywhere in the article so why does it redirect here? 138.163.160.41 (talk) 04:43, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Hope this is okay - I added a couple of sentences, because the redirect for 'hanyou' does lead here. I hunted around, but I can't find any use of the term 'hanyou,' independent of Inuyasha. Borrowed the folklore reference from Kitsune, because this page cites kitsune as a type of youkai. Other kinds of youkai have children with humans - Yuki-onna comes to mind - but I haven't seen a lot of information on the children.

It seem like historically, the child of a youkai and a human was just a human. Some of the children have supernatural powers, or otherwise fall into the 'special birth implies special person' mold. The idea of 'half-youkai', who are explicitly non-human, seems very recent - I can't find anything in folklore about it - but I don't have scholarly evidence to back that up. 97.87.13.67 (talk) 23:09, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

lol wut

"and in the present, not a few yōkai created by them (e.g. Kameosa and Amikiri, see below) are wrongly considered as being of legendary origin."

Anyone care to fix this very grammatically strange phrase? I'd do it myself but I'm not even sure what it means. Kronos o (talk) 18:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the author means 'Some youkai were invented by authors - they weren't part of the original legends. However, they became so popular that many people believe they were really part of the legends.' Like... how people here sometimes assume that the modern zombie mythos has been around forever, and comes from voudoun/voodoo, when our idea of a zombie mostly comes from Night of the Living Dead.

Edited it to that effect, at least. 97.87.13.67 (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Okami = Wolf Yokai?

Forgive me if I'm being ignorant here, but I thought Okami meant "god?" I'm not going to edit that part since I'm unsure, but I thought I'd point that out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.57.58.82 (talk) 01:31, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Okami is just the Japanese word for wolf. No more, no less. It has no other implications MightyAtom (talk) 03:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

The confusion is likely that, as in the videogame Okami, it is used as a pun: ōkami (狼) means wolf, but ōkami (大神 lit. 'big kami') means god. It is pronounced the same but spelled with different kanji. [1] --KnowledgeSeekerRen (talk) 02:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It´s the same pronounce for wolf [kanji:狼 & hiragana:おおかみ] and God [kanji: 大神 & hiragana:おおかみ](more like "the great god". the "ō" is a honorific particle to say something like "Oh God"). the hiragana are the same on both, because it´s the same pronunciation

References

  1. ^ http://jisho.org/words?jap=%E3%81%8A%E3%81%8A%E3%81%8B%E3%81%BF&eng=&dict=edict

Anime & Manga.

I almost always see "Mazoku" in these, but Gensoumaden Saiyui has Youkai. Some can shapeshift, some special fighting ability, most just fight with claws like wild animals but are far stronger than humans. The entire Youkai race resemble Tolkeinesque/D&D style Elves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:B580:80B:390A:EF79:D0F7:B2F3 (talk) 12:16, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Disinformation. bugbear is not included in Japanese folklore.

English bugbear is often included in Japanese folklore to the point that some mistakenly believe it originates from said folklore.

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%90%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%83%99%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89

In Japan, bugbear is recognized to be folklore of America, NOT English folklore.

In "gegege no kiraro", appear as an American ghost, and there is recognition. The Japanese does not think bugbear to be Japanese folklore.

bugbear is the name of the Anglicism. A Japanese cannot recognize bugbear of the name of the Anglicism as Japanese folklore. Show a source of information if you insist that bugbear is included in Japanese folklore.

220.106.177.101 (talk) 13:55, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree we should take out the part about Japanese people mistakenly believing that the bugbear originates in Japan. However, I think we can leave in the part about European/non-Japanese folkloric creatures being considered yokai. After all, even the Japanese bugbear page (https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%90%E3%82%B0%E3%83%99%E3%82%A2) describes it as a yokai. Osarusan (talk) 14:50, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
(https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%90%E3%82%B0%E3%83%99%E3%82%A2)The word yokai(妖怪) is not used in this page. It is yosei(妖精/fairy).
However, I agree to your claim because yokai is broad term.220.106.177.101 (talk) 15:19, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

First Two Paragraphs of "History>Modern Times" (section 2.4)

I have a few issues with the first two paragraphs of this section:

  • They feel very nostalgic. It's as if someone is ruminating the loss of culture that happened during the 20th century.
  • There are no citations for either of these paragraphs.
  • The writing is confusing. The writer may have been rushing or they may need help ironing out their grammar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Awilliamwright (talk • contribs) 00:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

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