Talk:Wijerd Jelckama

An article on him should be made

Wijard Gerlofs Donia deserves an article of his own. I shall ask some fellow Frisians for suggestions! -The Bold Guy- (talk) 16:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Name

Are you sure that this is the nephew's name. Pier had brothers Sybren and Abbe[1] as well as one sister Tyedt Gerlofs Donia. A middle name for a newphew would be Sybrens or Abbes rather than Gerlofs. Sybren had a son Wierd Sybrens Donia with a matching first name - could this be the correct person? What is the source of your article? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

The name is now Wijerd Jelckama. But I guess I'm a tad late now. :) Trotse Roma (talk) 10:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

more to this name

Some genealogy trees have Wijard or Wierd as the son of Sybren Gerlofs which would indicate if we follow convention for the time his name would be Wijard Sybrens or at a stretch Wijard Sybrens Gerlofs. I think the Donia would not have been used. However to throw a spanner in the works many authors including J.J.Kalma (1970) believe Wijard was not in fact a nephew of Pier. Contemporary Worp van Thabor describes him only as Wierd van Bolsward. The article should indicate this possibility. Of course none of this means there should not be an article on Grutte Wierd or Wierd van Bolsward, however maybe the title 'Wijerd Gerlofs Donia' should be not used. Ezza —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezza61 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I changed the man's middle name, Ezza, does this new title suits you? Thanks for pointing this out for me; you really helped me with it! Rock on, comrade! -The Bold Guy- (talk) 15:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

redirect, rewrite

I redirected it here and rewrote the article, there were simply no good sources for the name "Wierd Sybrens Donia". According to Wopke Eekhoff's book Beknopte geschiedenis van Friesland the correct name is Wierd Jelckama, so here it is. Baldrick90 (talk) 20:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

You did a fine job there. Thanks a lot man! I couldn't have done this without your help! -The Bold Guy- (talk) 13:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Count of Holland ?

This article mentions a count of Holland sending warriors.

Around 1520 Holland was only nominally still a county. The title of count being held by the Dukes of Burgundy, in casu Holy Roman Emperor Charles V. Holland was ruled by stadtholders instead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.27.16.7 (talk) 10:55, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Decapitation

He was taken to leeuwarden and decapitated publically there. It took 4 blows to do the job for Jelckama had an amazingly thick neck, a bull's neck. Last king of Frisia (talk) 11:29, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Dutch and Frisian translations

Both the Dutch and Frisian so called "Translations" are complete nonsense and have nothing to do with the article as seen here. Can someone take a look at those? 217.121.99.44 (talk) 14:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with them. 94.212.216.150 (talk) 12:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What happened was that the original writer thought that Wierd was the nephew of Grutte Pier, if there was such a nephew he would have been called xxx Sybrens Donia. This was therefore a sysnthesis based on incorrect assumptions leading to wrong names being used on fy nl and en articles at first. I renamed the fy version. The nl version seems to have been recreated this month. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 20:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, then it is fine. 94.212.216.150 (talk) 11:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Short

The article is relatively short. Can someone perhaps expand the article? 94.212.216.150 (talk) 09:38, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I suspect that there is not much more known on the man. Do you know of any more sources of information? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

No, but it is short anyway. 94.212.216.150 (talk) 11:37, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It is no longer short. And I expanded it further with some more information about Jelckama's personal life. Trotse Roma (talk) 09:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Uncle

It is not known for a fact Pier Gerlofs Donia was the uncle to Wijerd Jelckama. Some sources claim he is, others claim there was no close relation of blood between the two men. I kept the "uncle-nephew" relation in the article. I explained, however, that the sources differ on the subject. Trotse Roma (talk) 10:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I have found an image in which Donia (Grutte Pier) and another large man are throwing people in the water, presumabley standing on a ship. There seems to be no copyright on the image. I suspect the other giant is Jelckama. Trotse Roma (talk) 10:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

If the picture is from an old source, you can probably scan and upload it. And you could include it here, with disclaimer. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll be making a few calls then. Only when I am absolutely sure it's okay I'll upload it. That'll be this week or next week. Trotse Roma (talk) 10:50, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

The image is some sort of wood carving or an engraving. It is not extremely well detailed and I think it is one of the oldest surviving images from Jelckama\Donia (most are made long after their deaths). Trotse Roma (talk) 10:51, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I have removed lots of unsourced, badly sourced, or badly interpreted things from this article (and the PG Donia article) in the past, due to a recurring vandalising sockpuppet who had the habit of editing those two articles, and the article on tallest people, and the piracy template. I will again go through this article (and the others if necessary) and remove all unsourced, badly sourced, or otherwise dubious material. Fram (talk) 11:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

For the height, you have only a 1851 source. For the "uncle", an 1829 source. These sources, straight from the height of romanticism and nationalism, shouldn't be given the same weight as modern research. Fram (talk) 11:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

To give you an idea of the 1851 source: here it is[2]. "Met zulk een wakker man als Pier en zijn niet minder kloeken neef Groote Wierd (Jelckama) aan het hoofd, maakten zij er hun eerste werk van, de Saksische benden na te zetten en uit Friesland te verdrijven.[...] Het was hun eenigste begeerte en ernstig streven, om alle vreemde vorsten en magten te doen wijken om de vroegere onafhankelijkheid des lands op nieuw te vestigen." Translation: "Headed by such an alert man as Pier and his no less brave nephew Great Wierd (Jelckama), they made it their first work to pursue the Saxon gangs and chase them from Frisia. [...] It was their only desire and serious endeavour to remove all foreign kings and powers to recreate the previous independence of the country." The word "kloeken" in this old source is used to reference him being as "study" as his "uncle". "Kloek" however is just as often used in the non-physical sense of brave, valiant[3][4].

And where did you get the idea that Jelckama is depicted on File:Dapperheidgrotepier.jpg? There is one large man depicted against a number of enemies, and the picture is about Groote Pier. Fram (talk) 12:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Curious. The previous editor to add the "it took four blows to severe his head" was the indefinitely blocked sockpuppeteer I mentioned earlier[5]. You also added Jelckama to the article "strongman", with an incorrect and deceptive edit summary as well[6]. In the same list was previously (equally incorrectly) added Grutte Pier[7] by blocked sock IP [User talk:84.87.138.105]. I'm smalling a duck here. Fram (talk) 12:37, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I have since found further evidence, and Trotse Roma is now blocked by me as a block-evading sockpuppet. Fram (talk) 13:07, 20 October 2009 (UTC)