Talk:Wagner Group–Russian Ministry of Defence conflict

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On 2 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved. The result of the discussion was procedural close.

Organization[edit]

Thanks for the new page, but the organization and layout of this article is really rough. The chronology isn't consistent and there are way too many long quotes of Prigozhin and the MoD's colorful insults toward each other. I think it's important to emphasize the bigger picture in each part of the article rather than just having scattered vignettes of each small incident. There are a bunch of retrospectives from Western media published in the wake of the rebellion that summarized the past year of tensions pretty well that could be used as sources to do this. HappyWith (talk) 20:30, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith: We should work to harmonize everything in this article now and convert the lead to a reasonable summary (it can still be long-ish, like five or six meaty paragraphs long; that's acceptable). This article is not going away, and faced with the alternatives of trying to get it deleted [probably a waste of time and an energy drain] / redirecting it [unlikely to be accepted, and there is good content here] / merging it [would transfer unnecessary detail to Wagner Group rebellion], I have figured out that the best option is the WP:SYNC procedure. —Alalch E. 16:29, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Top tagging often leads to poor outcomes. That's why I've removed your otherwise reasonable 'lead too long' tag. This is something that is being actively worked on, so the tag is not necessary. (Also, everyone can see that the lead is long.) —Alalch E. 20:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2 July 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close – not moved. WP:GS/RUSUKR applies, meaning that this RM is procedurally defective, due to having been started by an IP editor. (non-admin closure) —Alalch E. 14:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Prigozhin–Shoigu conflict → Wagner-Russian Ministry of Defence conflict – ~We don’t use names of people for a conflict. 89.122.39.11 (talk) 07:25, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the best name for this subject would be, but the descriptor "conflict" is not a good one as it denotes an armed confrontation, and that's not really what the article is about.—Alalch E. 11:55, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Background and causes of the Wagner Group rebellion – I agree with Alalch E.. Aslo, this article talks about the background and causes of the rebellion and does not say anything about the events of the rebellion and after the rebellion. Parham wiki (talk) 15:25, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dash (as in the current title), not a hyphen. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 00:43, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Not an improvement. Wagner is wholly funded and theoretically owned by the Russian state. Prigozhin had operational control as its appointed warlord. It was actually a Prigozhin–Russian Ministry of Defence conflict, and the Kremlin belatedly took MoD’s side. (Should take an en dash anyway.) —Michael Z. 14:02, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:GS/RUSUKR non-confirmed extended editors may not edit internal project discussions such as RMs. This discussion should be closed. —Michael Z. 14:05, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So why can I edit the article? Parham wiki (talk) 14:09, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Question to Mzajac[edit]

@Mzajac: Are you instistent on the descriptor should be "conflict", or do you think that "feud" or "dispute" can work too? —Alalch E. 14:14, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Any of the above seem acceptable. Conflict seems marginally best, IMO. Recall that it included violence like the kidnapping and abuse of a lt. colonel, and military actions including an alleged rocket shelling, air strikes, and multiple aircraft and their crews destroyed. —Michael Z. 15:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mzajac: Two question

One, isn't the name Background and causes of the Wagner Group rebellion better? Because the article does not say anything about the rebellion and the conflicts that followed. Two, why can I edit the article when I am not eligible for WP:GS/RUSUKR? Parham wiki (talk) 16:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read the GS sanctions more carefully: you are not allowed to edit in the topic area, except for non-disruptive suggestions in talk. (Admins may decline to revert your edits if they are seen as positive.) —Michael Z. 16:33, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some articles on the subject area have technical protection that prevents non-extended-confirmed edits, others do not. That doesn’t mean they are not covered by the sanction. —Michael Z. 16:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the title, I see this as only one aspect of the background. The topic could also include background of the war since 2014, the legalization of Russian mercenaries and their employment, the breakdown of Russian government institutions, the full range of Prigozhin’s scores of Wagner and Concord-affiliated companies, &c.

The subject of causes seems fraught to me. It’s not like we can definitively provide a list of causes.

Personally, I would like to see this become more of an article about Prigozhin’s rise and fall in political influence than about one specific feud. —Michael Z. 16:41, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the response. I'm still thinking about the best course to take regarding how the subject should be formulated, and if this article should perhaps be merged with Wagner Group activities in Ukraine.—Alalch E. 22:20, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed add an "Aftermath" section[edit]

As titled above DitorWiki (talk) 09:28, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wagner Group rebellion is the aftermath. This feud between Prigozhin and MoD grew into Prigozhin's rebellion against the country.—Alalch E. 11:22, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually yeah, I wouldn't call it the aftermath, but as Chrisahn says, culmination. We should not cover the aftermath of the rebellion in this article in my opinion, because the aftermath is somewhat multifaceted and difficult to summarize at the moment, and trying to write about any facet of it here essentially leads to content forking. The aftermath of the rebellion belongs to the article about the rebellion. As this is about what preceded the rebellion, it's okay if this article would end by simply mentioning the rebellion, without going into extended coverage of what happened after the rebellion.—Alalch E. 17:32, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal[edit]

Wagner Group withdrawal from Russia is to be mentioned because as the Wagner Group has withdrawn the Defence ministry of Russia has got a victory as now the Wagner Group will not criticize the ministry of defence because it is not in Russia but in Belarus. furthermore, consequences shall be written because the Wagner Group Rebellion began due to the Wagner Group - Ministry of defence Conflict. DitorWiki (talk) 15:31, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Lead[edit]

I've reviewed twice now and the lede is far too long. Does anybody know if there is any plans to fix it. scope_creep^Talk 09:44, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]