Talk:Umm Kulthum/Archive 1

Archive 1

No sound sample to upload

Sorry, no sound sample to upload. —Tuf-Kat —Preceding undated comment added 04:55, 3 December 2004 (UTC)

It seems to me that there's some contradiction in stating than she had conservative values and her support to Nasser. Ericd 08:10, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Not really. She was a social conservative and a political supporter of Nasser's pan-Arabism. They are not mutually exclusive. --Gene_poole 07:42, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

Her real birth date seems unknown somewhere between 1898 and 1904 ? Ericd 2 July 2005 15:53 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source for this information? "One of her best known songs, Enta Omri, has been the basis of many reinterpretations, including one 2005 collaborative project involving Israeli and Egyptian artists." Or this: "She is also notably popular in Israel among Jews and Arabs alike, and her records continue to sell around a million records a year."? -- PansiesForThoughts 2 July 2005 15:53 (UTC)

Marriage And Sexuality

I don't think any of the stated "shame marriage" to cover up her same-sex interest is true. It's never been suggested, and I find no point of mentioning it.

Also, there were men who she loved in her life, like the song-writer Ahmad Rami, but she was known for overtly focused on her career and music that she discarded her emotions. She even rejected Ahmad El Asabji (a composer who helped Umm Kulthum Earlier) because she had a different perspective (of being on top). Might sound a bit huffy, but no wonder with such success.

I have to give it though, that the article is really good and I salute whoever made it with this quality 'til this point.

Omernos 12:43, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

The sham marriage has "been suggested" - in the Lonely Planet guide to Egypt no less - and it is certainly worthy of mention, even if it's untrue. --Gene_poole 01:05, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

The Ahmad Rami links to the wrong person...I'm assuming this because the person it links to is Swedish-Moroccan and born in 1946...which doesn't seem to fit with the time table of Umm Kulthum's "early life", no? --Gbruno 03:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to fix this bad link... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.169.189.225 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Music

Why is it there is no section for her music? her history lacking, and in general compared to the amount of info out there on her this article is a stub. She hugely influenced Egypt, to this day people still listen to her music and a single song ran for about 50 minutes in concert. I personally am not a huge fan, but this article is really neglected. I'm going to look into the arabic language article to see what we're missing here exactly.Angrynight 16:41, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Have you read the article? Her music and inflence is discussed at length throughout it. However, if you can add anything else useful please do so. --Gene_poole 22:37, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Many other singers at her time in the middle east had over 1 hour songs . Other people influenced egypt just as much as Oum Kalthoum if not more . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isammazl (talk • contribs) 02:15, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Name?

If Umm Kulthum had no children, why is she referred to as 'Umm' - a common epithet in the Arabic language for a mother, named after her eldest son? Surely there's a 'Kulthum' somewhere? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.10.16 (talk • contribs) 15:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

rvondeh@dircon.co.uk: Umm Kulthum is a standard Arabic name. There is simply no need to have a discussion as to whether she had a child called Kulthum. All her biographies state that her father had a dream before she was born and that he was told to call his child "Umm Kulthum". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.81.254 (talk • contribs) 11:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I've actually been looking for a reliable-source reference for her name. It appears to have been her given name, after a daughter of the prophet Mohamed. I have, however, also heard that her birth name was Fatma (also the name of one of her most popular films). Naguib Mahfouz named one of his daughters Umm Kulthum out of admiration for the singer. This reference [1] says the name literally means "the mother of plump cheeks," but an Egyptian friend says that it is more accurately "mother of dimples." Robertissimo 17:09, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Umm Kulthum was a granddaughter of the prophet Muhammad by his daughter Fatima and Ali.

I have read that third consonant in the modern singer's name is pronunced "s" in the spoken language of Egypt, is that right? --Cam 02:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, to correct a few of the previous statements, she was born Umm Kulthum Ibrahim al Baltagi (which is the name that appears on her birth certificate). Her mother's name is Fatma, by the way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khaled101 (talk • contribs) 23:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Egytian Wikipedia says her original first name is Fatma. --ZealousGnome (talk) 15:51, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

rvondeh@dircon.co.uk: regarding the name Qasabgi - never, never is a person's name written in the Cairo dialect by making the Qaf a glottal stop. His correct name is Qasabgi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.141.81.254 (talk • contribs) 11:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course it's possible to represent the qaaf as a glottal stop, as that is how the qaaf is usually pronounced in urban Egyptian Arabic. (See Moustafa Amar as just one example.) What is so objectionable about making the English transliteration represent the way a word is actually pronounced by native Arabic speakers? And furthermore, if you really want a completely "standard" transliteration, then your "Qasabgi" should actually be Qaṣabji; your declaration of the real "correct name" is not actually correct itself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.123.196.91 (talk) 19:34, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Greatest ever?

These kinds of generalizations are not acceptable in Wikipedia. I love Umm Kulthum, but some prefer Haleem or Mohammed Abdu. I changed the wording of that part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.87.255.131 (talk • contribs) 15:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

• • to contradict that statement, in terms of artistic caliber, how does Haleem or Mohammed Abdu measure up to a small fraction of it?? How does any vocalist or musician employing vocals in that matter? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khaled101 (talk • contribs) 23:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

It should not at all say greatest ever . Millons and millons of people prefer Haleem or Mohammed abdu then Oum Kalthoum . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isammazl (talk • contribs) 02:43, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Haleem had just as much powerful voice as Oum Kalthoum had if not more . Many people have a way powerfuler stronger voice than Oum Kalthoum . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Isammazl (talk • contribs) 02:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

No he didnt, come on. I like Abdel Halim more than Um Kalthoum (except for one song) but the claim his voice was stronger borders on being unbelievable. A common story is that Um Kalthoum had to stand five feet from the microphone for fear of damaging it. Abdel Halim had a great voice, but it was by no means more powerful than Um Kalthoum. nableezy - 02:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

what's the use of talking about the microphone?

Opera singers sing with no microphone... Um kalthoum by standing metres away from the mic isn't a remarkable thing... opera voices are stronger! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.220.79.108 (talk) 15:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC).

It's a remarkable thing for a non-opera trained popular singer. --Gene_poole 21:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Can someone elaborate on this actually... its says she had a remarkable 14,000 vibrations per second... how is this compared to normal singers? or opera singers as the previous comment mentioned? codectified (talk) 02:36, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Soprano singers can typically reach the C6 note, or about 1kHz. When using falsetto or the whistle register, this can go as high as 2.3kHz. Umm Kulthum's 14kHz is two and a half octaves higher than that, so it is rare and impressive. But the record belongs to Georgia Brown, at 25kHz, or almost an octave higher. Note that most adults cannot hear above 18-20kHz. Owen× ☎ 15:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Move proposal

• Move to Umm Kulthum--the current spelling "Khultum" is a misspelling. Badagnani 06:56, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

• I earnestly agree:

On the basis of linguistic considerations about transliteration of Arabic texts, أم كلثو can never be latinized into "Umm Khultum", being specially shocking the second word's first consonant interpreted as "kh". On the other hand, asking Google for the frequency of different possible spellings of أم كلثو, the following results are achieved:

Umm Kulthum 113000 - Um Kulthum 107000 - Oum Kalsoum 89300 - Om Kalthoum 58500 - Omme Kolsoum 11500 - Oum Kalthum 3440 - Um Kalthoom 3410 - Omm Kolsoum 2470 - Umm Kultum 2470 - Umm Kolthoum 2300 - Umm Khultum 1500 - Om Koultoum 702.

Popular use consequently agrees with philology in this quite obvious case.

I would appreciate arguments for maintaining the current title spelling.

Kind regards,

Zack Holly Venturi (talk) 21:07, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - The recent book and film by Virginia Danielson use the spelling "Umm Kulthum." Badagnani (talk) 21:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• I've never seen it spelt as anything but Kalthoum or Kulthoum, I've never seen Khulthum before I came to wikipedia 99.243.3.103 (talk) 14:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Can we please get this moved? It's been several months now. Thanks. Badagnani (talk) 20:07, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• "Umm Kulthum" is as close to acurate in English as it's possible to be. There is no reason to move anything anywhere. --Gene_poole (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Please look at the title again. It's not what you say it is. :) Badagnani (talk) 20:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

You're right - my mistake. The "h" after the "K" definitely needs to go. --Gene_poole (talk) 00:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I can't seem to get any admin interest in moving this, even after many tries. Badagnani (talk) 01:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
• Support. While there are several spellings of this (as noted) the proposed name appears to be the academic transliteration of Arabic. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - Okay, can we please do it now? Badagnani (talk) 21:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

robert mcclure?

Who was the Robert McClure mentioned in the Early Life section? I am surprised that Umm Kulthum had a friend with an English name at this early stage of her career. He must have spoken Arabic.Foxedward (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

name consistency

Currently the name of the page does not match the name on the sidebar. I realize that the English spelling is controversial, but shouldn't it at least be consistent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.118.100 (talk) 19:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

"Unusual" maqāmāt

Something especially notable from Umm Kulţhum in musical hindsight IMO was that the artist performed and recorded tunes in lesser-known maqāmāt which were almost forgotten or even deemed dead (e. g. the sikah, or, hold your breath, the bastanikar!!). Can anyone confirm that? -andy 77.191.42.23 (talk) 21:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Artistic Legacy

There's still no source which would cite that Maria Callas, Jean-Paul Sartre, Marie Laforêt, Salvador Dalí, Nico, Bono, Farin Urlaub and Jean Michel Jarre have recognized Kulthum as influence or inspiration? Capitals00 (talk) 08:55, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Order of the Virtues (Egypt)

The article was in Category:Order of the Virtues (Egypt) but there is no claim in the article (sourced or otherwise) of receiving it and I wasn't able to find one and it may be a misunderstanding of "virtuoso". If there is a citation to that effect, please tag me. Thanks! RevelationDirect (talk) 03:27, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

song of 1967 "Slaughter,..."

I have added a quite well referenced item on the song she song on Radioa Cairo & Radio Damas in may 1967. 2A02:A03F:167D:5900:319D:20B0:A729:F8FC (talk) 07:39, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Jewish is always capitalised—never in lowercase(!). El_C 08:03, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

txs. as this word is even a special case in other languages (religion, lower case versus people, capital) it is quite confusing at the end... and didn't take the time to check that here. 2A02:A03F:167D:5900:319D:20B0:A729:F8FC (talk) 09:35, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

So far, the article focussed on Umm Kulthum's voice, singing technique and her ability to create an emotional bond with her audience. Not much was said about the content of her songs, and her engagement, if any. All of a sudden this paragraph on her war songs was added, changing Umm Kulthum from a singer into a political activist, without any context or interpretation. As far as I'm concerned, this raises more question than it gives answers.

A well formed paragraph would have said something about her engagement in later life, and would have mentioned the two songs as an example of that, in stead of mentioning them as loose facts. It may very well be true that she sang those songs (once? were there recordings?) but by giving five (!) references, the author already shows that he doesn't believe his addition will be accepted readily. That's because the paragraph is way out of line with the article.  Wikiklaas  09:21, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

As User talk:Wikiklaas is starting with implying biaised intentions ("the author already shows that he doesn't believe his addition will be accepted readily") , which is not very wikipedia-alike as performing in-depth research looks not familiar to him, may I than also suggest to User talk:Wikiklaas to take care of mistakes in the NL version that are there since almost 7 years as if she performed in the USA (Verenigde Staten). https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_Kulthum . Also Wikiklaas seems concerned about her political activisme without performing any research himself. It is even part of questions in exams like here http://albustanseeds.org/digital/kulthum/pdf/Al-Bustan-UK-Lesson9.pdf 2A02:A03F:167D:5900:91C:E987:CE00:52CA (talk) 12:01, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

This is the English language version. It is NOT appreciated if you import problems from other language versions into this version. I will not answer any question or comment on any remark concerning the Dutch Wikipedia here.

If someone adds a simple fact and underlines it with five sources, then that's a tell-tale. It's ridiculous to ask for an "indept-research". There was nothing here to research "in-depth".

I'm not concerned about any activism of Umm Kulthum. What I'm concerned about is the quality of this article, and the way you compromised that by adding loose facts void of any context.  Wikiklaas  22:06, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

It looks user @Wikiklaas: has an issue that it is called in-depth research. He does not even understand the real issue at all. If it would have been easy, these additions would have been added years ago. Nobody, I repeat nobody on the Internet has been able to collect these as done now and if there are several sources used it is because years ago it has been considered as being unavailable in the public domain. Therefor, I didn't want to rely upon 1 or even 2 references, but Wikiklaas knows of course better what can motivate people and what they think. Typical Übermensch approach that is not exactly the spirit of wikipedia.

Wikiklaas pretends that it are loose facts while in the specialized literaturs it is clearly stated that her politcal oriented activity was far from being a detail. One additional reference proved that as well. Again quite wrong conclusion. 2A02:A03F:167D:5900:91C:E987:CE00:52CA (talk) 14:49, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

An additionnal fact is that for Fairouz, there is no @Wikiklaas: complaining about this part, that goes even further than for Umm Kulthum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairuz#Controversies_and_alleged_political_affiliations

I leave it to others to try understanding why it is acceptable in one case... 2A02:A03F:167D:5900:91C:E987:CE00:52CA (talk) 14:54, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Hello @Wikiklaas: it was not for importing, but for you to know and understand what is going on. Best 2A02:A03F:1644:2300:B191:1DD4:B2:EDC9 (talk) 15:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Not true. As I said, this is a problem you encountered on the the Dutch language Wikipedia, and you're importing it into the English language version now. That's why I first reverted your edit and that's why I won't comment on any of it here.  Wikiklaas  23:44, 19 June 2017 (UTC):: Yes, but I can't communicate with you there!!!! She cesnures EVERYTHING I dare writing, even comments with pure content. Obessionnal. So Please remove this all again, no problem, but give me a discrete channel to communicate as I can't at all anymore. Thanks 2A02:A03F:1644:2300:B191:1DD4:B2:EDC9 (talk) 03:52, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a politically biased and unproved claim, that has no evidence in any recording except a certain book with unknown reliability. I suggest that it is removed or at least changed from "heard" to "claimed to be heard". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.205.216 (talk) 10:21, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no first-hand proof of the existence of such a song ever sung and/or recorded by Umm Kulthum. Only non-specialists of Umm Kulthum report having heard it and quote various lyrics. It is utterly unjustified to keep mention of such a libelous rumor in an encyclopedia entry, since there are numerous academic sources on Umm Kulthum and none of them (Danielson, Lohman, Lagrange) mentions the existence of such a song. Wikipedia's role is not to broadcast urban legends and fake news. Umm Kulthum's legacy is referenced and copyrighted with the Egyptian state radio. If such a song existed, a recording could be put forward. It is noticeable that Israeli radio has never claimed that such a song existed and never broadcasted any such document as "proof" of alleged antisemitism of Umm Kulthum. I suggest this libelous part is suppressed until an actual proof of existence, in the form of a recording, is brought, instead of second-hand testimonies. Higaz kar (talk) 15:07, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Four references are given to claim that Um Kalthum once sang an anti-Semitic song. Source 27 is by André Chouraqui and does mention Um Kalthum's name for such a song. It should be noted that André Chouraqui is not a specialist in Arabic music and he provides no evidence to support his allegation. Whereas the works of Um Kalthoum are all precisely referenced. The following reference is only a translation of the previous one, not an additional reference. Reference 30 refers to an anti-Semitic song but does NOT attribute it to Um Kalthoum. So does the following one. Conclusion: among all of these sources there is only one, from a non-specialist in Arabic music that attributes such a song to Um Kalthoum. Non of the academic works concerning Um Kalthoum has ever mentionned such a song. Frederic Lagrange, even qualifies it as an "urban legend", can we leave such a reference at the risk of spreading hearsay and fake news, Higaz kar (talk) 18:42, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Statues

Dated 2006; statue still there today

Dated December 2015

Commons has pictures of apparently-identical statues in two locations, shown above. Are these the same object, or is one a copy? Where is the second statue (in the night-time pic) located? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 08:02, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

As the overleaf caption says, I think the first statue is located near her former house, demolished not long after her death and now the Om Kolthoom Hotel. The second, according to its description at Commons, is located in the gardens of the Cairo Opera House. They look very similar, apart from the plinth. The same statue is also the centre of Umm Kulthum square in Mansoura. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

She sold over 80 million records worldwide, making her one of best-selling singers of all time from the Arab world.

This may or may not be true, but it is certainly nowhere mentioned in the web page that is quoted as a source. The closest is the sentence "Even today, her albums are still selling well in Arab countries" from that source - hardly sufficient to support the claim from the article. --Oscar Zariski (talk) 16:03, 3 August 2021 (UTC)